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[Continuation] Musk buys Twitter II

angrysoba said:
For me, the debate is this….

You clearly need some kinds of terms of service if you want a functioning platform that will attract enough people.

If you really want anyone to be able to spout anything at all within the law (as first amendment absolutists claim they want) then you can have it, but it is likely to drive people away.

For example, it is not illegal to be personally abusive, homophobic, racist, sexist and transphobic. Do you want the platform to be okay with that or even to incentivize that, or perhaps be agnostic about how much those views can be made viiral? If so, you should realize that some people will not want to be on the receiving end of that and advertisers have no obligation to pay their money to put their products alongside that. To say otherwise is to oppose the very same first amendment that Musk and his followers claim Twitter is now upholding.

Look at places like Gab and Parler. They uphold these standards and most people want nothing to do with it.

You have to accept that if people can choose how much toxicity they want in their lives then they can opt out and don’t have to submit to those who think it is fun to subject it to others.
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To chime in here a little - the things that you point out here are absolutely one of the directions included in the generality about the real harms of excessive tolerance of intolerance that I pointed out. I don't consider them the only direction, but that doesn't lessen how relevant and meaningful such is, especially when it comes to the actual driving forces behind why Twitter, as a business, took action against those that Samson is intent upon claiming as wronged.


angrysoba said:
So try to realize that I’m not shutting Musk down. I’m not shutting down people he associates with. There is a difference between that and people deciding to vote with their feet.
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As for me, I'm not interested in shutting Musk down, either. That doesn't mean that I'm at all appreciative of decisions that sabotage free speech in practice being touted as if they somehow benefit free speech by using superficial pretexts. Nor am I appreciative of a long pattern of attempts to blame anyone else on the slightest pretexts for the entirely predictable consequences of one's own actions.
 
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Samson said:
Are alternate views to yours allowed?
You need a more secure echo chamber.
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Both you and Musk have made it abundantly clear that your free speech advocacy is 200 proof hypocrisy. Need I remind you of the particulars (concerning Media Matters)?
 
varwoche said:
Both you and Musk have made it abundantly clear that your free speech advocacy is 200 proof hypocrisy. Need I remind you of the particulars (concerning Media Matters)?
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Another way to consider Musk and X is the utilitarian principle, the greatest good for the greatest number. Dorsey banned hundreds of people for using words that mainstream thinkers now consider valid pushback against ideologies. Should these people still be silenced?
X is the only platform used by many people whose work I agree with. They may be dead wrong, as might I.
We might even know in the future, now these people have a platform they are comfortable with.
Does this mean they are nazis, bigots, and racists?
No, clearly not.
 
Samson said:
Another way to consider Musk and X is the utilitarian principle, the greatest good for the greatest number. Dorsey banned hundreds of people for using words that mainstream thinkers now consider valid pushback against ideologies. Should these people still be silenced?
X is the only platform used by many people whose work I agree with. They may be dead wrong, as might I.
We might even know in the future, now these people have a platform they are comfortable with.
Does this mean they are nazis, bigots, and racists? No, clearly not.
Click to expand...

Yes, the Nazis, bigots, and racists on Twitter/x are in fact Nazis, bigots, and racists.
 
Samson said:
Another way to consider Musk and X is the utilitarian principle, the greatest good for the greatest number. Dorsey banned hundreds of people for using words that mainstream thinkers now consider valid pushback against ideologies. Should these people still be silenced?
X is the only platform used by many people whose work I agree with. They may be dead wrong, as might I.
We might even know in the future, now these people have a platform they are comfortable with.
Does this mean they are nazis, bigots, and racists?
No, clearly not.
Click to expand...
Utterly irrelevant to Musk's (and your) hypocrisy concerning Media Matters.
 
varwoche said:
Utterly irrelevant to Musk's (and your) hypocrisy concerning Media Matters.
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Musk in the interview says he is a Jew and most of the people he hangs out with are Jews. This is an unlikely formulation for an anti semite.
So I consider his triggering post should be interpreted his way, and not as by that simpering idiot from Disney.
I have not done any deep dive, so I could be wrong, he may be a diehard anti Semite.
 
Samson said:
Another way to consider Musk and X is the utilitarian principle, the greatest good for the greatest number. Dorsey banned hundreds of people for using words that mainstream thinkers now consider valid pushback against ideologies. Should these people still be silenced?
X is the only platform used by many people whose work I agree with. They may be dead wrong, as might I

...snip....
Click to expand...

We know - you agree with the changes that allow Nazis back because you are fine with having their support for your obsession.
 
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Samson said:
Musk in the interview says he is a Jew and most of the people he hangs out with are Jews. This is an unlikely formulation for an anti semite.
So I consider his triggering post should be interpreted his way, and not as by that simpering idiot from Disney.
I have not done any deep dive, so I could be wrong, he may be a diehard anti Semite.
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Does he have many black friends as well?
 
Samson said:
Another way to consider Musk and X is the utilitarian principle, the greatest good for the greatest number. Dorsey banned hundreds of people for using words that mainstream thinkers now consider valid pushback against ideologies. Should these people still be silenced?
X is the only platform used by many people whose work I agree with. They may be dead wrong, as might I.
We might even know in the future, now these people have a platform they are comfortable with.
Does this mean they are nazis, bigots, and racists?
No, clearly not.
Click to expand...

It's the opposite of Utilitarian. Adding back a couple hundred bigots to the detriment of far more users isn't Utilitarian.
 
Samson said:
Musk in the interview says he is a Jew and most of the people he hangs out with are Jews. This is an unlikely formulation for an anti semite.
So I consider his triggering post should be interpreted his way, and not as by that simpering idiot from Disney.
I have not done any deep dive, so I could be wrong, he may be a diehard anti Semite.
Click to expand...
You apparently do need a reminder, because the cryptic things you're posting are entirely irrelevant.

Media Matters truthfully documented nazi content on X. Musk melted down and sued them. You cheered Musk on.

No free speech for Media Matters in the world according to you and Musk.
 
Samson said:
Musk in the interview says he is a Jew and most of the people he hangs out with are Jews. This is an unlikely formulation for an anti semite.
So I consider his triggering post should be interpreted his way, and not as by that simpering idiot from Disney.
I have not done any deep dive, so I could be wrong, he may be a diehard anti Semite.
Click to expand...

But he is not Jewish.

Pushing back against accusations of antisemitism, Elon Musk has in recent months visited Israel, hosted Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu at a Tesla factory in California and repeatedly insisted he bears no animus toward Jews.

On Monday, he took his penitence tour to a new level, declaring himself “aspirationally Jewish” after a visit to the former Nazi death camp Auschwitz in southern Poland, where he lit a candle in memory of the millions of Jews murdered in the Holocaust.
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Link

Speaking later at a conference on antisemitism organized by the association in the nearby Polish city of Krakow, Mr. Musk said he had been “somewhat naïve” about the dangers posed by anti-Jewish sentiment because “in the circles I move in, I see no antisemitism.”
“Two-thirds of my friends are Jewish,” he said. “I’m Jewish by association. I’m aspirationally Jewish.”
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Honestly, he sounds like a moron for saying stuff like this. Was he "somewhat naive", and did he "see no antisemitism"? He explicitly endorsed explicitly anti-semitic claims about the machinations of the Jews. To then say he is "aspirationally Jewish" probably doesn't do Jews many favours does it?
 
Samson said:
Musk in the interview says he is a Jew and most of the people he hangs out with are Jews. This is an unlikely formulation for an anti semite.
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Before anything else, thank you for actually stating an argument that you found worthwhile, rather than telling us to watch a fairly long video.

With that said, it may be an unlikely formulation, if true, but hardly impossible. Much like black and brown people supporting white supremacism is unlikely, but does happen. That "if true" caveat seems to very much be in question. It's possible that he's technically Jewish by bloodline, if the rumors about his maternal grandmother being Jewish are true. There's not really much reason to believe that he has any claim beyond that tenuous claim, if he even has that, though.

Samson said:
So I consider his triggering post should be interpreted his way, and not as by that simpering idiot from Disney.
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Unfortunately, it's an unreasonable stretch to treat it as anything else, even if he were a Jew and hangs out with Jews.

Samson said:
I have not done any deep dive, so I could be wrong, he may be a diehard anti Semite.
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I'm doubtful that "diehard anti-Semite" is a perfectly accurate description of Musk, personally. That's still largely irrelevant, though. The larger issue is that Musk not only actively worked to enable anti-semites and antisemitism structurally, he chose to personally amplify their voices of hateful BS. This is a situation that Musk absolutely bears responsibility for. So long as he refuses to take responsibility and keeps trying to blame everyone else for somehow wronging him, I have no interest whatsoever in listening to his attempts to dodge responsibility.
 
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varwoche said:
You apparently do need a reminder, because the cryptic things you're posting are entirely irrelevant.

Media Matters truthfully documented nazi content on X. Musk melted down and sued them. You cheered Musk on.

No free speech for Media Matters in the world according to you and Musk.
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Musk sued them when he assembled evidence it was creative association of Nazi material with the big advertisers. Presumably the case will be heard, he will be found wrong or right.
It is an interesting case, meat and drink for this forum.
 
Samson said:
Musk sued them when he assembled evidence it was creative association of Nazi material with the big advertisers. Presumably the case will be heard, he will be found wrong or right.
It is an interesting case, meat and drink for this forum.
Click to expand...

Why does he want to shutdown Media Matters free speech if he is an advocate for free speech. His legal suit admits the screen grabs were not faked.

Again his actual actions rather than his words demonstrate his words are lies.
 
Darat said:
Why does he want to shutdown Media Matters free speech if he is an advocate for free speech. His legal suit admits the screen grabs were not faked.

Again his actual actions rather than his words demonstrate his words are lies.
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My sense is media matters is lock step with disinformation
Projects.
Who are against free speech.
500k to Jacinda Ardern annually to continue her vendetta against questioners of Islam is a classic example.
I believe Musk. I believe he wants more speech not less speech.
Speech is the 4th singularity, let us be excited by it prior to succumbing to the Taliban, Xi Peng, Putin and so on.
I am convinced Musk is at the other end of the see saw.
 
Samson said:
My sense is media matters is lock step with disinformation
Projects.
Who are against free speech.
500k to Jacinda Ardern annually to continue her vendetta against questioners of Islam is a classic example.
I believe Musk. I believe he wants more speech not less speech.
Speech is the 4th singularity, let us be excited by it prior to succumbing to the Taliban, Xi Peng, Putin and so on.
I am convinced Musk is at the other end of the see saw.
Click to expand...

How does it feel to be in a cult and having to proselytize for it and getting no interest?
 
Samson said:
My sense is media matters is lock step with disinformation
Projects.
Who are against free speech.
500k to Jacinda Ardern annually to continue her vendetta against questioners of Islam is a classic example.
I believe Musk. I believe he wants more speech not less speech.Speech is the 4th singularity, let us be excited by it prior to succumbing to the Taliban, Xi Peng, Putin and so on.
I am convinced Musk is at the other end of the see saw.
Click to expand...

Then why does he want to shutdown Media Matters' free speech if he is an advocate for free speech? (Remember they did nothing illegal, and his lawsuit acknowledges the screengrabs were accurate and not faked in any way.)
 
Samson said:
Musk sued them when he assembled evidence it was creative association of Nazi material with the big advertisers. Presumably the case will be heard, he will be found wrong or right.
It is an interesting case, meat and drink for this forum.
Click to expand...
Samson said:
My sense is media matters is lock step with disinformation
Projects.
Who are against free speech.
500k to Jacinda Ardern annually to continue her vendetta against questioners of Islam is a classic example.
I believe Musk. I believe he wants more speech not less speech.
Speech is the 4th singularity, let us be excited by it prior to succumbing to the Taliban, Xi Peng, Putin and so on.
I am convinced Musk is at the other end of the see saw.
Click to expand...
:rolleyes:
The hypocrisy.....
 
Samson said:
My sense is media matters is lock step with disinformation.
Click to expand...
Is your sense based on facts? Or are we playing a game of Community Rorschach, where we blurt whatever random thought that comes to mind?

In other words, your presentation appears to be fact-free.
 
Darat said:
Why does he want to shutdown Media Matters free speech if he is an advocate for free speech. His legal suit admits the screen grabs were not faked.

Again his actual actions rather than his words demonstrate his words are lies.
Click to expand...

Because he's fine with all forms of free speech except those he disagrees with or hit him in the pocket book.
 
Samson said:
It is an interesting case, meat and drink for this forum.
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Honestly? Not particularly. As far as interesting goes, the most interesting part about it is how unreasonable it is. IIRC, it involves court shopping in ways that violate policy and the case itself is a farce. The only way it actually gets anywhere is by taking advantage of Republican anti-free speech efforts.
 
angrysoba said:
But he is not Jewish.



Link



Honestly, he sounds like a moron for saying stuff like this. Was he "somewhat naive", and did he "see no antisemitism"? He explicitly endorsed explicitly anti-semitic claims about the machinations of the Jews. To then say he is "aspirationally Jewish" probably doesn't do Jews many favours does it?
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I think you are saying he is making the mistake of digging his way out of a hole. If so, this is a fairly human response, and not necessarily morally reprehensible. I think he made big mistakes with the pedophile caving accusation. With the seeming anti semite tweet, I think it is clear he left out some steps in reasoning that he held in his head. I do it often, and it gets me in trouble, so I have some empathy for that.
 
Samson said:
I think you are saying he is making the mistake of digging his way out of a hole. If so, this is a fairly human response, and not necessarily morally reprehensible. I think he made big mistakes with the pedophile caving accusation. With the seeming anti semite tweet, I think it is clear he left out some steps in reasoning that he held in his head. I do it often, and it gets me in trouble, so I have some empathy for that.
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No! I am saying he is not Jewish even though you stated he was as if it were a fact.

It’s also weird to say he is aspirationally Jewish, like if he had gone round saying he wished he was black or Chinese.
 
angrysoba said:
No! I am saying he is not Jewish even though you stated he was as if it were a fact.

It’s also weird to say he is aspirationally Jewish, like if he had gone round saying he wished he was black or Chinese.
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People need not aspire to be Jewish without satisfaction. They can go to a synagogue, talk to a Rabbi, and begin the educational process of converting to Judaism. While that religion doesn't place the same priority on evangelism as others, they're happy to get sincere converts.
 
Babbylonian said:
People need not aspire to be Jewish without satisfaction. They can go to a synagogue, talk to a Rabbi, and begin the educational process of converting to Judaism. While that religion doesn't place the same priority on evangelism as others, they're happy to get sincere converts.
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True. He could convert. If that’s what he’s talking about. On the other hand, it seems rather that he’s saying he wants to be like the Jews. You know what Jews are like, right? He has an essentialist view of them, which sounds almost a bit anti-Semitic.
 
angrysoba said:
No! I am saying he is not Jewish even though you stated he was as if it were a fact.

It’s also weird to say he is aspirationally Jewish, like if he had gone round saying he wished he was black or Chinese.
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And there has never been anything stopping him becoming Jewish so if it is his aspiration to become Jewish he seems to be taking a long time to start the process.
 
Samson said:
My sense is media matters is lock step with disinformation
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I have a simple proposal for you. You might learn something from it.

List a few instances of Media Matters saying something that's indisputably false, and which they didn't retract. Quote the false statements and provide links to the false statements. If the examples are unrelated to Musk/X, start a new thread.

If you're unable to find examples, that suggests that your criticisms are off base, in which case you should retract. Otherwise you'd be in lock step with disinformation.
 
varwoche said:
I have a simple proposal for you. You might learn something from it.

List a few instances of Media Matters saying something that's indisputably false, and which they didn't retract. Quote the false statements and provide links to the false statements. If the examples are unrelated to Musk/X, start a new thread.

If you're unable to find examples, that suggests that your criticisms are off base, in which case you should retract. Otherwise you'd be in lock step with disinformation.
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I will be interested in the court case.
From memory, Musk says media matters constructively associated his tweet with nazi propaganda, and thus caused X substantial commercial loss.
 
Samson said:
I will be interested in the court case.
From memory, Musk says media matters constructively associated his tweet with nazi propaganda, and thus caused X substantial commercial loss.
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:rolleyes:
I take it this roll of wallpaper words means that you are unable to provide examples to support your assertion that "My sense is media matters is lock step with disinformation"?
:rolleyes:
 
Only losers try to beat free speech with a lawsuit. A true badass would beat the free speech with more free speech. Really free speech it up in here. Free speech those companies into giving you money. Free speech them into ******* submission!
 
Olmstead said:
Only losers try to beat free speech with a lawsuit. A true badass would beat the free speech with more free speech. Really free speech it up in here. Free speech those companies into giving you money. Free speech them into ******* submission!
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Heh, you seem right on to it.
Good to find a true friend in these parts.
 
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