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Moderate hit for creationism.

Nay_Sayer

I say nay!
Nay_Sayer
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[URL="http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2014/10/god-is-not-a-magician-pope-says-christians-should-believe-in-evolution-and-big-bang/[/URL]

‘God is not a magician’: Pope says Christians should believe in evolution and Big Bang
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It should be noted as enticing as it may seem.
 
I wonder how many Catholics are googling "how to fire a pope". I never really associated anti-evolutionism with Catholics, but I guess there are some of all stripes.

Yes, a Catholic can be a young Earth creationist in good faith

1. The question of the origin of man’s body from pre- existing and living matter is a legitimate matter of inquiry for natural science. Catholics are free to form their own opinions, but they should do so cautiously; they should not confuse fact with conjecture, and they should respect the Church’s right to define matters touching on Revelation.

2. Catholics must believe, however, that the human soul was created immediately by God. Since the soul is a spiritual substance it is not brought into being through transformation of matter, but directly by God, whence the special uniqueness of each person.

[Richard Dawkins has picked up on this and denounced the Church for it, revealing how little true meeting of minds there could ever between Catholicism and Darwinism.]

3. All men have descended from an individual, Adam, who has transmitted original sin to all mankind. Catholics may not, therefore, believe in “polygenism,” the scientific hypothesis that mankind descended from a group of original humans.
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ETA: Fixed OP's link

God is not a magician’: Pope says Christians should believe in evolution and Big Bang
 
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The only two Catholics I know of who believe in creationism are my mother and that jackass who founded Domino's Pizza. I don't think this will cause a stir in the Holy Mother Church. I went to a Catholic High School and the subject of creationism never came up in Biology. I can see the whacko fringe of fundies finding another reason to hate Catholics over this but they had a long list already.
 
I find this current Pope's recent declaration fascinating. In the 1950s, Pope Pius basically said that the jury was still out on evolution; he didn't oppose it outright but he did ascribe acceptance of it to Communists, and opined that there was not yet enough evidence to sway him. For whatever that's worth. Now the newest Man in the Funny Hat is making very specific, very carefully constructed comments in which he absolutely accepts evolution and the Big Bang as real processes which accurately describe reality. I just find that awesome, and I hope hope hope that his forthright stance on the subject will lead other Christians, of every denomination, to re-think their position on creationism, and to come to a more rational worldview.
 
Vortigern99 said:
I find this current Pope's recent declaration fascinating. In the 1950s, Pope Pius basically said that the jury was still out on evolution; he didn't oppose it outright but he did ascribe acceptance of it to Communists, and opined that there was not yet enough evidence to sway him. For whatever that's worth. Now the newest Man in the Funny Hat is making very specific, very carefully constructed comments in which he absolutely accepts evolution and the Big Bang as real processes which accurately describe reality. I just find that awesome, and I hope hope hope that his forthright stance on the subject will lead other Christians, of every denomination, to re-think their position on creationism, and to come to a more rational worldview.
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I agree. That would be nice.

In the short term, however, it will also lead to certain fundamentalists saying that it proves Pope Francis is the anti-Christ.

Of course, they said the same thing about all the other popes, but this time for sure.
 
Olowkow said:
I wonder how many Catholics are googling "how to fire a pope". I never really associated anti-evolutionism with Catholics, but I guess there are some of all stripes.



ETA: Fixed OP's link

God is not a magician’: Pope says Christians should believe in evolution and Big Bang
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I hate to say it, but I'm kind of with the creationists on this one: I don't understand the people who think both things can be true at the same time. That is, the Bible is true and the scientific theories about the origin and evolution of life on earth are also true. I only differ with the creationists on which one of those mutually exclusive possibilities is more likely to be true.
 
Puppycow said:
I hate to say it, but I'm kind of with the creationists on this one: I don't understand the people who think both things can be true at the same time. That is, the Bible is true and the scientific theories about the origin and evolution of life on earth are also true. I only differ with the creationists on which one of those mutually exclusive possibilities is more likely to be true.
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Why not? "God created the universe with the Big Bang, then time unfolded according to his design, including the evolution of life." That seems far more reasonable and evidential than "God created everything more or less exactly as it is now, and evolution is a lie".

ETA: I mean if one is willing to accept the idea of a paternalistic creator-being, which is rather silly, why not do so within a far more realistic and rational framework which includes scientific principles and accepts scientific theories?
 
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Vortigern99 said:
Why not? "God created the universe with the Big Bang, then time unfolded according to his design, including the evolution of life." That seems far more reasonable and evidential than "God created everything more or less exactly as it is now, and evolution is a lie".
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It does seem more reasonable, but it still doesn't fit the evidence. There's none to suggest that evolution was guided according to some sort of design, quite the reverse.
 
Pixel42 said:
It does seem more reasonable, but it still doesn't fit the evidence. There's none to suggest that evolution was guided according to some sort of design, quite the reverse.
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Exactly. If God is really directing evolution then he's a criminal lunatic. What a brainless wasteful way of doing things. The magic god could create Man in no time at all by making a clay shape and breathing life into it. But this new god takes three thousand eight hundred million years to do the same thing by letting myriads of lesser creatures mindlessly bonk or eat one another, as if they need a god to tell them to do that!
 
I have to wonder how much of all the controversial things the pope has done is nothing more than a PR stunt to get new sheep and to draw attention away from the churches problems.
 
Vortigern99 said:
Why not? "God created the universe with the Big Bang, then time unfolded according to his design, including the evolution of life." That seems far more reasonable and evidential than "God created everything more or less exactly as it is now, and evolution is a lie".
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And it would knock "humans" out of a special place in the Universe. Or maybe "god" just needed to think it over for 13.6 billion years before creating humans by a process that essentially took ~ 4 billion years?
 
Craig B said:
Exactly. If God is really directing evolution then he's a criminal lunatic. What a brainless wasteful way of doing things. The magic god could create Man in no time at all by making a clay shape and breathing life into it. But this new god takes three thousand eight hundred million years to do the same thing by letting myriads of lesser creatures mindlessly bonk or eat one another, as if they need a god to tell them to do that!
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Well God Works In Mysterious Ways and Gods' Way Is Not Mans' Way, who are you to question god, no one was there then so we can't say, the apologetics are endless but in the end they all amount to "Sit Down, Shut Up!".
 
Gawdzilla said:
And it would knock "humans" out of a special place in the Universe. Or maybe "god" just needed to think it over for 13.6 billion years before creating humans by a process that essentially took ~ 4 billion years?
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Most Christians see God as existing in all the temporal points of the universe at the same time. So such things are sort of meaningless from his context.
 
Vortigern99 said:
I find this current Pope's recent declaration fascinating. In the 1950s, Pope Pius basically said that the jury was still out on evolution; he didn't oppose it outright but he did ascribe acceptance of it to Communists, and opined that there was not yet enough evidence to sway him. For whatever that's worth. Now the newest Man in the Funny Hat is making very specific, very carefully constructed comments in which he absolutely accepts evolution and the Big Bang as real processes which accurately describe reality. I just find that awesome, and I hope hope hope that his forthright stance on the subject will lead other Christians, of every denomination, to re-think their position on creationism, and to come to a more rational worldview.
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Unfortunately what the Catholic Church thinks on most things gets dismissed with "No true Scotsman" And as we have seen from time to time in threads on here some Christians go so far as to argue the Catholic Church is an instrument of Satan
 
MG1962 said:
Most Christians see God as existing in all the temporal points of the universe at the same time. So such things are sort of meaningless from his context.
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If god exists in an eternal Now then he is fixed in a system he cannot change and must observe things he cannot do anything about, it would seem he is in a private hell of his own making.

His screams last all eternity.
 
tsig said:
If god exists in an eternal Now then he is fixed in a system he cannot change and must observe things he cannot do anything about, it would seem he is in a private hell of his own making.

His screams last all eternity.
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Now I feel sorry for God.
 
I picture God just snapping his fingers and causing big bangs in more than one universe one after another and letting them evolve how they will as he goes on to the next one. Maybe it's the big bangs that are His forte; He has no interest on how they progress after that.
 
I just noticed that the translation in the article from the OP has been changed from "divine being" to "demiurge", which should help a bit in getting the Pope out of the dog house with some Christian English speakers. Whew!:rolleyes: I found "God is not a divine being or a magician..." just a little odd for a Pope to be claiming.

“God is not a demiurge or a magician, but the Creator who brought everything to life,” the pope said. “Evolution in nature is not inconsistent with the notion of creation, because evolution requires the creation of beings that evolve.”

Updated: “Demiurge,” the manual laborer who created the physical world in Plato’s origin myth, was translated in some accounts as “divine being.”
God is not a magician’: Pope says Christians should believe in evolution and Big Bang
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I think the Pope is still on the hook, though, concerning the creation of human beings in the image of God when he says, "...because evolution requires the creation of beings that evolve." I don't really see how he can honestly try to promote accepting the two beliefs at the same time.
 
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The only catholic which I knew as creationist are coming from the US.

I do not know of any creationist catholic from western europe. They may exists but they are a crushing minority.

Also note that in many western europe country i lived, there is often a government or state curriculum which only take into account science, that is evolution.

Heck the first time we were taught evolution and earth age in school was CM1/CM2 part of the "science" classes (9 to 10 years old) with a week or two about dynosaurus(*) and various period of old earth.

Also there are very few "evangelist" in france.

All combined , I would be personally shocked and astonished if that better than 0.1% of the French christian population is YEC. Germany from what I can se eis pretty much the same.

Other religion in France, that is another story.

(*) before they were renamed
 
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A lot of the catholics in polynesia are hardcore YEC's, with a substantial chunk believing that all polynesians are from israel, arriving within the last 400 years
 
Olowkow said:
I think the Pope is still on the hook, though, concerning the creation of human beings in the image of God when he says, "...because evolution requires the creation of beings that evolve." I don't really see how he can honestly try to promote accepting the two beliefs at the same time.
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Not really - the statement is really pretty ambiguous. In God's likeness could easily be applied to physical, mental or spiritual.
 
MG1962 said:
Not really - the statement is really pretty ambiguous. In God's likeness could easily be applied to physical, mental or spiritual.
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It could be applied to Homo Neanderthalensis too. All religion has to be ambiguous in its claims, which just wind up being meaningless, in order to appeal to the widest audience. Just-so feel-good bed time stories that have wound up costing evolved man a lot of precious time.
 
tsig said:
One of the most unsettling stories I have read.
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The machine in that science fiction stories has a god-like nature. It has ever lasting life. However, it sees nothing else worthwhile to do than tempt and torment human beings for all eternity.
 
The theistic evolution idea like the catholic church espouses just strikes me as desperate. They know that to go against modern science will just show them as the Looney tunes they are o they pay lip service to reality.
Always bare in mind that when religions concede something to reality they do so solely because they have no choice not because they want to. The catholic church has been dragged kicking and screaming to acknowledge modern science,but only when they have to. Look at there stance on aids in Africa,they still won't advise condoms.
I for one don't care if its young earth,theistic,old earth,Hindu or I.D ,its all religious creationism and is all insane.
 
Puppycow said:
I hate to say it, but I'm kind of with the creationists on this one: I don't understand the people who think both things can be true at the same time. That is, the Bible is true and the scientific theories about the origin and evolution of life on earth are also true. I only differ with the creationists on which one of those mutually exclusive possibilities is more likely to be true.
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The Catholic Church is actually not very adherent to the principle of Biblical Literalism. This is a core dispute with much of Protestantism.

The Catholic Church has a principle called The Living Church, which is the belief that the church is the centerpiece of the faith, rather than the text in a book. They hold as true that even if the Bible was originally divinely authored, the Bible we have today is the product of human judgement, not crystal clear, and appears to need interpretation. The Pope is final authority for interpretation. If the Pope is wrong, a Catholic obeying his interpretation in good faith will be OK. This is what's meant by Papal Infallibility. Catholics are supposed to defer to the Pope's interpretation even if they personally think it's incorrect.

So, in terms of the Bible versus Evolution, the Catholics are not seeing these critical Biblical accounts as literally true, but often simply metaphorical. They don't all see these as mutually exclusive beliefs.

But some do, of course. Individual Catholics can think the Pope is wrong, and I think it's even an issue among orders. From what I can tell Jesuits and Franciscans are very evolution-friendly, while the entire Eastern Rites and German Order and some others are quite hostile to evolution.
 
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