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Miss-Interpreting Quantum Collapse.

BillyJoe

Penultimate Amazing
Joined
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From an article by Ingrid Hansen Smythe criticising the movie "The Secret"

Does the mind of the observer truly shape reality as claimed? After all it is true that, at the quantum level, a scientist has great difficulty recording and measuring particles and their interactions without changing the results of the investigation. Is this because the scientist’s mind is influencing the experiment? Is it because the scientist perceived the experiment and, as a result of perceiving, changed the results? No. The answer is far more mundane. To put it in crudely simplistic terms, as soon as the scientist switches on the light to see what’s going on, other particles, like photons, get in the way. It is the photons that are responsible for messing up the results, not the thoughts of the experimenter.

This doesn't seem to gel with my lay man's understanding of Quantum Physics.
My understanding is that an interaction of any kind causes the wave function to collapse, but it is neither the observer, nor "photons" or any "other particles" that causes how the wave function collapses. The observer or particle causes the collapse, but it does not influence how it comes out. It's like you can toss a coin but you can't influence whether it comes out "heads" or "tails".
I could be talking gibberish though.

Are there any experts here who would like to comment on this.

BillyJoe
 
I'm far, far from being an expert (although you'd think I should be from the number of books I've read on the subject) but the way I understand it, the question of whether a non-conscious observer (I know, an oxymoron) can cause waveform collapse is moot because it cannot be proven, even in theory. Furthermore, and taken to extreme, if everything and anything could cause waveform collapse then there would not be a waveform to collapse in the first place.

Of course, the original quote doesn't tell the full story. It is only one component of the observer effect. I'm sure "The Secret" is well worthy of criticism (although I know little about it) but that criticism needs to be fair and logical.
 
From an article by Ingrid Hansen Smythe criticising the movie "The Secret"



This doesn't seem to gel with my lay man's understanding of Quantum Physics.
My understanding is that an interaction of any kind causes the wave function to collapse, but it is neither the observer, nor "photons" or any "other particles" that causes how the wave function collapses. The observer or particle causes the collapse, but it does not influence how it comes out. It's like you can toss a coin but you can't influence whether it comes out "heads" or "tails".
I could be talking gibberish though.

Are there any experts here who would like to comment on this.

BillyJoe

I can't figure out why you think what you said was different from what was said in the paragraph you quoted.

Linda
 
This doesn't seem to gel with my lay man's understanding of Quantum Physics.
My understanding is that an interaction of any kind causes the wave function to collapse, but it is neither the observer, nor "photons" or any "other particles" that causes how the wave function collapses.

That's not my understanding. You can in principle model the interaction of particles in quantum mechanics, and while the interaction affects the wave functions of each particle (or more exactly, the wave function of the entire system), such interactions never cause a "collapse" of the wave function. And you can model such interactions successfully up to a certain point. But the thing is, in pretty much any real experiment, there's a point at which you cannot, for purely practical reasons, continue to model all the particles that are interacting. You don't know the quantum mechanical state of your entire measurement aparatus, and it's too complex to calculate even if you did. So as far as I can tell, the "collapse" of the wave function is nothing more than a way to brush under the rug the interactions which you can't model anymore, but still make statistical predictions about the outcomes based upon what you did know (the wave function prior to the interactions you couldn't model).
 
It's always painful when your quantums collapse.

That's not my understanding. You can in principle model the interaction of particles in quantum mechanics, and while the interaction affects the wave functions of each particle (or more exactly, the wave function of the entire system), such interactions never cause a "collapse" of the wave function. And you can model such interactions successfully up to a certain point. But the thing is, in pretty much any real experiment, there's a point at which you cannot, for purely practical reasons, continue to model all the particles that are interacting. You don't know the quantum mechanical state of your entire measurement aparatus, and it's too complex to calculate even if you did. So as far as I can tell, the "collapse" of the wave function is nothing more than a way to brush under the rug the interactions which you can't model anymore, but still make statistical predictions about the outcomes based upon what you did know (the wave function prior to the interactions you couldn't model).

Nope. Wavefunctions and their collapse are part of the real world, they are not simply a mathematical conveniece. If a particle is floating aroun dall by itself, it can exist in a superposition of many different states. When it interacts with another particle it cannot stay in that superpostion because each different state it is in would lead to a different outcome. Instead the superposition collapses down to a single state, with the probability of each state being determined by the wavefunction. The collapse is not dependent on conciousness and is a real phenomenon. No rugs need to be brushed.

Of course, this is a little simplified and it is possible to get particles not to collapse under certain conditions. This is where weird things like superconductivity and quantum computing come from, but isn't really relevant to a basic understanding.
 
I'm far, far from being an expert (although you'd think I should be from the number of books I've read on the subject) but the way I understand it, the question of whether a non-conscious observer (I know, an oxymoron) can cause waveform collapse is moot because it cannot be proven, even in theory.

Nope, this is basically just asking if a falling tree makes a noise if no-one is there to hear it. In the real world the answer is yes.

Furthermore, and taken to extreme, if everything and anything could cause waveform collapse then there would not be a waveform to collapse in the first place.

Well, sort of. What you are assuming is that things are always interacting. This is true in the sort of things we see around us every day, and this is why we know, for example, what the atoms in a piece of metal are doing. They are constantly interacting with each other and so they do not exist in a superposition of states. However, a lone particle created in a particle accelerator is very different, it can exist in a superpostion until it interacts with something, at which point it will collapse down to one state. This is why things like superconductors are so interesting, and so poorly understood. As I say in my previous post, it is possible to create states where numerous particles interact without their wavefunctions collapsing, but these states are very unusual and difficult to create. More to the point, since they are so different from normal matter it is very hard to understand them. Materials like this are a direct argument against your point, if wavefunctions didn't always collapse in normal matter there would not be anything special about superconductors.
 
It's always painful when your quantums collapse.



Nope. Wavefunctions and their collapse are part of the real world, they are not simply a mathematical conveniece. If a particle is floating aroun dall by itself, it can exist in a superposition of many different states. When it interacts with another particle it cannot stay in that superpostion because each different state it is in would lead to a different outcome. Instead the superposition collapses down to a single state, with the probability of each state being determined by the wavefunction. The collapse is not dependent on conciousness and is a real phenomenon. No rugs need to be brushed.

Of course, this is a little simplified and it is possible to get particles not to collapse under certain conditions. This is where weird things like superconductivity and quantum computing come from, but isn't really relevant to a basic understanding.
WARNING: EXTREME LAYMAN'S COMMENTS FOLLOW!

If I am understanding your post correctly, this has actually helped me quite a bit in crystallizing the observer effect. Tell me where my paraphrase is going wrong, please (in my comments, "unobserved" includes "un-interacted with"):

Unobserved Particle A exists in a superposition (of many states). It does so because it can; there is nothing inconsistent with its superposition because there is no Particle B for it to be inconsistent with.

Particle B is introduced, and A and B interact. The superposition of many states must end because all but one of them is inconsistent with the state of the other particle. Hence, the wave function collapses and A now exists in only one state.

And that, my son, is why half the world's cats died today.
 
Nope, this is basically just asking if a falling tree makes a noise if no-one is there to hear it. In the real world the answer is yes.

I agree and disagree. I don't mean I'm in a pre-collapse waveform frame of mind, rather that I agree with the first part of your answer and disagree with the second.

I agree what I said is basically the same as the old addage, If a tree falls in a wood and nobody is nearby, does it make a sound? However, in my mind the whole point of that question is to understand how the world can be changed by observation. The "sound" mentioned in the question is meant to refer to what a layman understands sound to be - i.e. audiable sound, rather than the scientific interpretation. A tree falling in a forest causes compression of air. In non-scientific terms, it is only when those compressed air waves encounter a human eardrum and the resultant vibrations are interpreted in the brain that sound is produced.

I've always thought that the question would be better phrased as, If a gramophone plays in the woods and nobody is around does it still produce music? Anyway, the point I'm making is that the question is still one of observer interaction.
 
Nope. Wavefunctions and their collapse are part of the real world, they are not simply a mathematical conveniece. If a particle is floating aroun dall by itself, it can exist in a superposition of many different states.

Yes.

When it interacts with another particle it cannot stay in that superpostion because each different state it is in would lead to a different outcome.

This is wrong. You can model the interaction of two particles in quantum mechanics, and while the interaction will CHANGE the wave functions of each particle, the interaction WILL NOT cause a collapse of the wave function. And that's true no matter how many particles you include. Collapse simply isn't part of the Schrodinger equation: only time evolution of the wave function is.

The collapse is not dependent on conciousness

Certainly.

and is a real phenomenon. No rugs need to be brushed.

But they do. You cannot model the entire quantum mechanical wave function of your experimental apparatus. So you cannot determine the true time evolution of both the particle you're trying to observe and your measurement apparatus, and since the particle's state becomes entangled with your measurement apparatus during measurement, you cannot actually determine the particle's time evolution during the measurement process. So you assume collapse, because it works statistically. But it happens only when you can't keep calculating the time evolution of the wave function for practical reasons.
 
It's always painful when your quantums collapse.



Nope. Wavefunctions and their collapse are part of the real world, they are not simply a mathematical conveniece. If a particle is floating aroun dall by itself, it can exist in a superposition of many different states. When it interacts with another particle it cannot stay in that superpostion because each different state it is in would lead to a different outcome. Instead the superposition collapses down to a single state, with the probability of each state being determined by the wavefunction. The collapse is not dependent on conciousness and is a real phenomenon. No rugs need to be brushed.

Of course, this is a little simplified and it is possible to get particles not to collapse under certain conditions. This is where weird things like superconductivity and quantum computing come from, but isn't really relevant to a basic understanding.


I will admit that this is the part of QM that has never really "clicked" with me. Right now, I'm leaning towards Ziggurat's explanantion.

The problem I have with the above, is that even if you introduce a new particle, as long as you know it's wave function, you can, in principle, calculate what the new combined wave function will be (using Schrodinger). How can the outcome be probabilistic if the Schrodinger equation is deterministic?

ETA: I see Ziggurat has addressed this already.
 
Here's the thing about superposition states: EVERY quantum mechanical state is a superposition. A quantum mechanical wave function is a complex vector in some (possibly infinite dimensional) phase space. "Superposition" just means that you can express this vector as a sum of two or more other vectors. Often times this is convenient, such as when these other vectors are eigenstates of some observable, but even these eigenstates are themselves superpositions of some other basis. So when you talk about a wave function collapsing, that only makes sense in respect chosen some basis. And the basis for your collapse isn't always the same. It could be eigenstates of the spin, eigenstates of position, eigenstates of energy, etc. But again: these eigenstates are still superpositions in some other basis. So it's wrong to claim that a system cannot remain in a superposition state, because it's ALWAYS in a superposition state.
 
I'm far, far from being an expert (although you'd think I should be from the number of books I've read on the subject) but the way I understand it, the question of whether a non-conscious observer (I know, an oxymoron) can cause waveform collapse is moot because it cannot be proven, even in theory. Furthermore, and taken to extreme, if everything and anything could cause waveform collapse then there would not be a waveform to collapse in the first place.

Of course, the original quote doesn't tell the full story. It is only one component of the observer effect. I'm sure "The Secret" is well worthy of criticism (although I know little about it) but that criticism needs to be fair and logical.


Wave forms don't collapse they intersect with other wave forms. The wave is a wave before , after and during the 'collapse'. In my misguided fashion I believe the intesection of the two waves creates determinant values.

Schniebster will elucidate, I am sure, as well Ziggy and maybe some oethsr.
 
From an article by Ingrid Hansen Smythe criticising the movie "The Secret"
The quote is utter rubbish, as you have discerningly detected.

This doesn't seem to gel with my lay man's understanding of Quantum Physics.
That's a pretty good layman's understanding. ;)

My understanding is that an interaction of any kind causes the wave function to collapse, but it is neither the observer, nor "photons" or any "other particles" that causes how the wave function collapses.
Yes, that's the essence of it. Random chance is random chance. Physicists can state with high accuracy how many times it will come out each different way if you do it a thousand times; but no one can tell you how it will come out this time. There's a little quibble, though, about that word "causes." That's where quantum mechanics gets interesting, and where it gets very different from how we perceive things in the everyday world. There is, as well, a certain amount of controversy over wave functions, and "collapse," and things like that, and it's not minority controversy- there are entire claques or even schools of thought about the various possibilities.

The observer or particle causes the collapse, but it does not influence how it comes out. It's like you can toss a coin but you can't influence whether it comes out "heads" or "tails".
I could be talking gibberish though.
You did fine, except for the minor notes above, which are probably well beyond what anyone would consider to be "lay territory."

Are there any experts here who would like to comment on this.
I'm not an expert; Cuddles is, and there are others here. I'll tell you what I know, though, if you'll promise to keep it a sekrit. ;)
 
OK, so let's talk about physics. The first thing you have to understand is that physics is a model of reality. We can't trust our senses to tell us about reality; we have to make tools to look at things closely enough to figure out what's really going on. Of course, in the end, you have to trust your senses about what those tools tell you; the philosophy of it is that you ultimately have to accept that:
1. I'm (you're) real.
2. I'm (you're) the same me (you) that I (you) was (were) an instant, or ten minutes, or a lifetime ago.
3. My (your) senses send impulses to my (your) brain that are an accurate representation of some "reality" out there.
4. All of you (us) are real just like me (you).
You can't prove any of this. You either accept it, or you don't. If you do, then you're agreeing with the majority, and you're "sane;" otherwise, you're either playing philosophical games, or you're truly "insane."

Given that we accept this is real, then we look for how we can describe it. There's natural language, of course, and for most people, this is plenty. But if you want to know why things are the way they are, and in fact if you really actually want to know how they are, then you have to do more than just describe them, which we call "qualification;" you have to describe them in detail, which we call "quantification." In other words, "there's some rocks" is a qualitative description; "there are eighteen rocks located as follows, of the following sizes and compositions and masses," is a quantitative description. The first is good enough for natural language; the second is only barely good enough for the simplest kind of physics. Physicists get really, really precise about how they describe things, and to do that, they use math.

Now, math is a language for describing things quantitatively. That's what it's made to do. But you always have to remember, it's a language, and it describes; never confuse it with the reality being described.

As it turns out, we know enough to make really incredibly detailed descriptions. So detailed, we can describe things that we can't actually sense directly with our own senses. We can measure those things, and we can describe them, but we can't see them. So how do we know they're right?

The answer is, reality appears to be consistent. In other words, our universe appears to be a place where, although random things can happen, not just anything can happen. Only certain sorts of random things can. For example, if you get out of bed and walk to the store and buy some brewskis and come home and sit on the couch and drink one, you're still you. You don't turn into a penguin when you walk around the corner, and you don't cease to exist when you sit down on the couch. And this implies some things about the nature of our universe- and those things add up to consistency. Rocks don't just disappear, or appear out of nowhere. The planet beneath our feet is there all the time, and holds us to itself.

Physicists have a way of describing consistency like this. They call it, "symmetry." Physicists believe that there are certain things that remain the same no matter what you do. Those things are called "physical laws." They are descriptions of how objects behave, put in ways that are pretty much always true, and if they aren't under some certain set of circumstances, there's a way to describe how those circumstances can be translated into ones that make sense and show that in fact, it really was true, it just didn't look true. These symmetries are mathematical in nature, but you can describe them in natural language, with a bit of quantification thrown in.

Because of these symmetries, it is possible to state these laws of physical reality in mathematics; math is a language that's made to be consistent just the way the world is. There are ways to check if math is consistent, and those ways tell whether the math is useful for describing the world. And the beauty of math is, it can describe things that are impossible, but only if you start with things that are impossible; if you start with real world things, then as long as your math obeys the rules of consistency, it will continue to describe reality no matter how complicated it gets.

So that's how we can trust math to tell us about reality, and that's how we can trust the big pieces of reality that we can see to tell us about the little or huge ones we can't. That consistency is a key idea. It's the basis of something called the "Scientific Method," which uses that consistency to let us make these mathematical theories that accurately describe our world.

So, physics is written in math. And the rules of consistency of that math are as close as we can make them to the rules of consistency of the real world as we can make them; and we go looking for little teeny faults in the math, by testing it against the real world, all the time. If we find something wrong, then we figure out what we did wrong and fix it, and then our math is a better description.

But you always have to remember that the math is just a description; it's the old thing about the map, not the territory. You can look at the map all you want, but until you've walked it you really don't quite know what's there. And when you have a bunch of math that describes stuff you can't ever directly sense for yourself, then you have to just trust the math, and look for ways to check it.

Now, the math talks about probabilities when it talks about quanta. It talks about waves- or, rather, the equations we use to talk about those phenomena are the types of equations we use to talk about waves we can see. It talks about particles- again, rather, the equations we use are the types we use to talk about solid objects with apparently definite locations and other definite characteristics, boundaries, qualities, and so forth, that we can hold in our hands, as well as many we can't. But that's not to say there really are waves, or particles. All we know is that if we use this particular math right here to describe this aspect of reality, when we make predictions with it, those predictions come true. And we don't predict precisely what will be precisely where precisely when- we predict probabilities that this thing will be there then. That's all the math can tell us. If we try to use path that doesn't include those probabilities, it doesn't predict what's going to happen. So we can tell that math that doesn't make its predictions in those terms is wrong, because it doesn't agree with the real world. We can tell that math that doesn't talk about waves is wrong, because the predictions don't come out right. We can tell that math that doesn't talk about particles is wrong, because when we look, the particles are there. But even though we know it's right, we also know it's not reality- it's just a description of reality.

So how come we know when it's wrong or right? Because if it's right, it works. It describes what we see, and predicts what we will see. If we make something using it, that something works- it does what we expect. If it's wrong, it doesn't work. It's just that simple. We keep checking it against the real world.

We also know that we can't ever "look for ourselves" at quanta. In books, you see pictures of little balls floating around, generally lit by diffuse light from over your left shoulder. Quanta aren't little balls, and they aren't lit by anything. There isn't anything to see them with but other quanta, that are around the same size they are. They don't have precise edges, and we can't say they're "right there-" we can only say where they probably are. And we only know that much by bouncing another quantum off them, and then capturing it in one of our machines and measuring it. So all we will ever know about them is the math that works. That's as close as we can get- and that math only talks about probability, not about certainty.

Next, I'll talk about "interpretations" of quantum mechanics- how we describe that math in natural language, and try to understand what it means in terms we can understand.
 
Schneibster,

What can I say!

In year twelve (called Matriculation back then) I was very interested
in mathematics and obtained top marks in calculus and pure maths.
Admittedly it was not a top school. I considered very strongly whether
I would do maths in college (called University here) but, in the end, I didn't.

You have just made me regret that decision.

Thanks a lot!

:D

regards,
BillyJoe
 
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So you assume collapse, because it works

And this is the important point. If the assumption gives the right answer then you can't say it is wrong. If you assume collapse it works, therefore the collapse really did happen and wasn't just a mathematical dodge. I think the problem here is not so much that we disagree, it is simply that different interpretations are possible. If you assume wavefunction collapse or many worlds or whatever, you get the same (correct) answer. It is therefore impossible to say that any of the assumptions made are the "true" ones, since they are all equally valid and, at present, we have no way of differentiating between them.
 
Quote:
Does the mind of the observer truly shape reality as claimed? After all it is true that, at the quantum level, a scientist has great difficulty recording and measuring particles and their interactions without changing the results of the investigation. Is this because the scientist’s mind is influencing the experiment? Is it because the scientist perceived the experiment and, as a result of perceiving, changed the results? No. The answer is far more mundane. To put it in crudely simplistic terms, as soon as the scientist switches on the light to see what’s going on, other particles, like photons, get in the way. It is the photons that are responsible for messing up the results, not the thoughts of the experimenter.
The quote is utter rubbish, as you have discerningly detected.

Can you explain to me why the quote is utter rubbish? All it looked like she was trying to say is the same thing that you and the others have said - the process of measurement necessarily involves interacting with the particle which necessarily leads to collapse to an eigenstate. She did not seem to be implying any element of control over the specific state (in fact, it seemed she was specifically denying it) or that the photon-particle interaction was the only kind of measurement to which this applied (it was just an example). I sorta assumed she was referring to the observation that placing a detector at a slit in a double-slit experiment removes the interference pattern.

Or asked another way - if you know what she should be trying to say, doesn't it look like that is what she is saying?

Linda
 
And this is the important point. If the assumption gives the right answer then you can't say it is wrong. If you assume collapse it works, therefore the collapse really did happen and wasn't just a mathematical dodge. I think the problem here is not so much that we disagree, it is simply that different interpretations are possible. If you assume wavefunction collapse or many worlds or whatever, you get the same (correct) answer. It is therefore impossible to say that any of the assumptions made are the "true" ones, since they are all equally valid and, at present, we have no way of differentiating between them.

That's true. But the thing is, collapse always and only happens when you aren't able to track the system anymore. There's no equation which indicates when collapse happens. There's no equation which dictates which basis set collapse happens with respect to. We cannot model the process of collapse. Either it's just a book-keeping step to still get some information despite our ignorance of the actual processes (which are still governed by the deterministic Schrodinger equation), or there's something fundamentally different from the Schrodinger equation going on (which is how people get into silly ideas about consiousness causing collapse, etc). You're correct that there's no way to distinguish completely between these scenarios. But all of them require new and unknown physics, except the position that it's just our inability to continue to track the time evolution of the system.
 
Can you explain to me why the quote is utter rubbish? All it looked like she was trying to say is the same thing that you and the others have said - the process of measurement necessarily involves interacting with the particle which necessarily leads to collapse to an eigenstate. She did not seem to be implying any element of control over the specific state (in fact, it seemed she was specifically denying it) or that the photon-particle interaction was the only kind of measurement to which this applied (it was just an example). I sorta assumed she was referring to the observation that placing a detector at a slit in a double-slit experiment removes the interference pattern.

Or asked another way - if you know what she should be trying to say, doesn't it look like that is what she is saying?

Linda

The quote looks fine to me too. She did say "crudely simplistic terms" and I interpret it as referring to decoherence which is a perfectly legitimate objection as far as I can see. Of course, more context would be helpful. Is the article on-line, and is there is a link?
 
That's not my understanding. You can in principle model the interaction of particles in quantum mechanics, and while the interaction affects the wave functions of each particle (or more exactly, the wave function of the entire system), such interactions never cause a "collapse" of the wave function. And you can model such interactions successfully up to a certain point. But the thing is, in pretty much any real experiment, there's a point at which you cannot, for purely practical reasons, continue to model all the particles that are interacting. You don't know the quantum mechanical state of your entire measurement aparatus, and it's too complex to calculate even if you did. So as far as I can tell, the "collapse" of the wave function is nothing more than a way to brush under the rug the interactions which you can't model anymore, but still make statistical predictions about the outcomes based upon what you did know (the wave function prior to the interactions you couldn't model).

Congratulations. You've just re-invented the Everett Interpretation, also called Many Worlds. Of course Everett didn't just wave his hands, he demonstrated that after a particle interacts with a system in a thermodynamically irreversable way, that system is thrown into a superposition, and the supermiposed versions of that system cannot have any meaningful interactions thereafter.

In other words while we cannot model exactly what happens in that interaction, we can show that it leads to several superimposed observers, each of which will perceive a collapse, and none of which can observe each other.

Cheers,
Ben
 
Congratulations. You've just re-invented the Everett Interpretation, also called Many Worlds.

No, actually, that's rather precisely NOT what I'm saying. I'm saying that if you could actually model the entire system, you'd find that it time evolves into a specific state without "collapse" or chance. But we can't model the entire system, and the initial state of the entire system is essentially random (and different each time a measurement is performed), so we get what appears to be random results.
 
Nope. Wavefunctions and their collapse are part of the real world, they are not simply a mathematical conveniece. If a particle is floating aroun dall by itself, it can exist in a superposition of many different states. When it interacts with another particle it cannot stay in that superpostion because each different state it is in would lead to a different outcome. Instead the superposition collapses down to a single state, with the probability of each state being determined by the wavefunction. The collapse is not dependent on conciousness and is a real phenomenon. No rugs need to be brushed.

If you can prove that collapse is real, then you've just disproven the Everett Interpretation. I'm pretty sure that nobody has done so. Our perception of collapse is real. But that doesn't mean that collapse "really" happens.

Furthermore there are lots and lots of situations where multiple particles interact but do not collapse. If this were not possible, then phenomena like quantum entanglement could not exist.

Of course, this is a little simplified and it is possible to get particles not to collapse under certain conditions. This is where weird things like superconductivity and quantum computing come from, but isn't really relevant to a basic understanding.

You can change "a little simplified" to "simplified to the point of being wrong".

Cheers,
Ben
 
No, actually, that's rather precisely NOT what I'm saying. I'm saying that if you could actually model the entire system, you'd find that it time evolves into a specific state without "collapse" or chance. But we can't model the entire system, and the initial state of the entire system is essentially random (and different each time a measurement is performed), so we get what appears to be random results.

Oh. In that case you're wrong. Sorry.

Linearity implies that once a quantum mechanical system goes into superposition it can never stop being in superposition. This is not a failure to model the system in full detail, this is a basic prediction of quantum mechanics. So basic, in fact, that the contradiction was evident before quantum mechanics was worked out in any great detail. Hence the mystery in the fact that it does appear to stop being in superposition. (The "collapse".)

Several possible explanations exist for how it is that we see collapse happening, even though collapse can't happpen within quantum mechanics. There is no test that can distinguish between these explanations (which are called "interpretations of quantum mechanics"). Therefore one can only decide between them on philosophical grounds. (I personally like the Everett Interpretation because it is the only one that says that quantum mechanics applies to everything, including the observer.)

But whatever interpretation you prefer, it is an observational fact that we perceive collapse happening, and quantum mechanics predicts that collapse can't actually happen.

Cheers,
Ben
 
Linearity implies that once a quantum mechanical system goes into superposition it can never stop being in superposition. This is not a failure to model the system in full detail, this is a basic prediction of quantum mechanics.

I'm afraid you're simply wrong. First off, every state is always a superposition state. The phrase is only meaningful with respect to a particular basis (commonly energy eigenstates, but that's not a requirement). But states that start out as energy eigenstates don't need to stay that way, which means that they time evolve into other states. Superposition or not, a quantum state is still just a vector in a phase space, and that vector can change continuously under the Schrodinger equation without having to "collapse" to a particular basis.

Consider, for example, a free quantum spin with a magnetic moment (ie, an electron). Let's say it's in a state with spin up along the z axis. This is a superposition state of up and down spins along the x axis, or a superposition of up and down states along the y axis (all equivalent expressions). Now let's suppose we apply a magnetic field along the y axis. The energy of the y-axis eigenstates are now different, and the phase difference between them changes over time. This is equivalent to the spin rotating in the field. If we look at how the spin state evolved in a different basis (namely, the x-axis or z-axis basis), we find that the amplitudes of these superpositions will change. The spin will rotate from up along the z axis (and an even mix of up and down x-axis states) to up along the x-axis (and an even mix of up and down x-axis states). Given an initial quantum state for our spin, we can use a magnetic field to change it into anything we want. That includes turning a "pure" state into a "superposition" state, or vice versa. So the claim that superposition states cannot become pure states without collapse is simply wrong. Depending on the system, it can be quite easy to do.

But whatever interpretation you prefer, it is an observational fact that we perceive collapse happening, and quantum mechanics predicts that collapse can't actually happen.

It is only in cases where we have an absence of any prediction from quantum mechanics that we "observe" collapse. You never get collapse in a situation where quantum mechanics gives you an answer, and the only reason quantum mechanics doesn't give you an answer (since it's deterministic) is because you can't do the calculation for practical reasons.
 
OK, so let's talk about physics.

Nominated.

Mate, as a science communicator (and currently a science teacher), I often endeavour to try to find ways of communicating science in a fashion that people who don't have the relevant background can understand. You have an excellent way of describing what you know, and I'm jealous of your abilities.

Thanks.

Athon
 
Nominated.

Mate, as a science communicator (and currently a science teacher), I often endeavour to try to find ways of communicating science in a fashion that people who don't have the relevant background can understand. You have an excellent way of describing what you know, and I'm jealous of your abilities.

Thanks.

Athon
Oh, you math jocks just drool over stuff like that, don't you? I'll bet when you were kids you would huddle in the garage playing with your calculators and telling dirty equations.

(Seriously, it was quite good and deserving of a nomination. And Athon should know, as he is a former winner himself.)
 
Can you explain to me why the quote is utter rubbish?
Yes. Because she has confused a gedankenexperiment that Heisenberg used to describe the uncertainty principle with the truth. In fact, the reason that quantum parameters that are uncertain because they are conjugate with measured quantities is not because the measurements are disturbed- it is because the quantities themselves are of indeterminate value. It's not that they have a value but we can't measure it, it's that they don't have a value. Or in the case of continuous conjugate parameters like position and momentum, they don't have a precise value. It's a little easier to understand with spin, which has discrete values- or perhaps it's more confusing, since this type of thing is completely unlike what we experience.

All it looked like she was trying to say is the same thing that you and the others have said - the process of measurement necessarily involves interacting with the particle which necessarily leads to collapse to an eigenstate.
No. She said that the process of measurement necessarily disturbs it- that's not the point. The point is that measurement makes the conjugate parameter indeterminate, not merely unmeasurable. We can actually tell the difference, there is an experiment called the "Aspect experiment," a realization of an earlier gedankenexperiment devised by Einstein, Podolsky, and Rosen, and called the "EPR experiment" in their honor, that allows us to do so.
 
The quote looks fine to me too. She did say "crudely simplistic terms" and I interpret it as referring to decoherence which is a perfectly legitimate objection as far as I can see. Of course, more context would be helpful. Is the article on-line, and is there is a link?
The idea is indeed very, very close to decoherence, but decoherence varies from that idea because it does not assert that indeterminate parameters have values but those values are unmeasurable.
 
Nominated.

Mate, as a science communicator (and currently a science teacher), I often endeavour to try to find ways of communicating science in a fashion that people who don't have the relevant background can understand. You have an excellent way of describing what you know, and I'm jealous of your abilities.

Thanks.

Athon
Beat you by a day or so!
If he wins I get the credit, okay. ;)
 
No. She said that the process of measurement necessarily disturbs it- that's not the point.

That's EXACTLY the point. A measurement process can only happen when there's an interaction. Interactions change energy eigenstates, so any previous energy eigenstates of the system (the only basis states which can be non-time-dependent) are no longer eigenstates of the system, and so the system MUST time-evolve in response to the measurement process. And how exactly it time evolves is uncertain not because of quantum uncertainty, but because you never know the quantum state of your measuring device.

The point is that measurement makes the conjugate parameter indeterminate, not merely unmeasurable.

That can happen even without a wave function collapse. In fact, that's precisely what I described above: take a spin in a z-axis eigenstate, rotate it with a magnetic field applied along the y axis, and you can turn it into an eigenstate of the x axis and a superposition of z-axis eigenstates (which is really what you mean when you say it's indeterminate). But that requires no "measurement", and no collapse, because you can model the whole thing entirely.
 
I'm too thrashed to write tonight. I'll try to get to this tomorrow. Also, I'll have to do the "wave/particle" thing before I can talk about the interpretations. More later.
 
Here's the link to the eSkeptic article, just so it's clear where this is from.

Yes. Because she has confused a gedankenexperiment that Heisenberg used to describe the uncertainty principle with the truth. In fact, the reason that quantum parameters that are uncertain because they are conjugate with measured quantities is not because the measurements are disturbed- it is because the quantities themselves are of indeterminate value. It's not that they have a value but we can't measure it, it's that they don't have a value. Or in the case of continuous conjugate parameters like position and momentum, they don't have a precise value. It's a little easier to understand with spin, which has discrete values- or perhaps it's more confusing, since this type of thing is completely unlike what we experience.

No. She said that the process of measurement necessarily disturbs it- that's not the point. The point is that measurement makes the conjugate parameter indeterminate, not merely unmeasurable. We can actually tell the difference, there is an experiment called the "Aspect experiment," a realization of an earlier gedankenexperiment devised by Einstein, Podolsky, and Rosen, and called the "EPR experiment" in their honor, that allows us to do so.

You seem to be focussed on what she means by messing up, but I think the relevant point is a step back. The premise for movies like "The Secret" and "What the Bleep do we Know" seems to be that measurement consists of a conscious observer becoming aware of the result. And I think that is what she was attempting to counteract. She does refer to Schrodinger at the start of the quoted paragraph.

I do agree that her description can be read as though the photons interfere with or disturb an accurate measure. But I also think it can be read as a recognition that even "turning on the light" forms part of what leads to waveform collapse (without getting into a discussion on what that is). And that does seem to be what her footnote is referring to as well.

Linda
 
Joe Vitale was on Larry King tonight talking about "the secret" and he said that Jessica Lunsford (The 9 year old girl who was kidnapped, molested repeatedly, tortured and buried alive) actually "caused" that to happen to her because she unconsciously attracted the pedophile to her life.



When I heard this I felt sick to my stomach. I just wanted to punch that fat bald freak in the face.
 
I do agree that her description can be read as though the photons interfere with or disturb an accurate measure. But I also think it can be read as a recognition that even "turning on the light" forms part of what leads to waveform collapse (without getting into a discussion on what that is). And that does seem to be what her footnote is referring to as well.

Linda

I just wanted to add that I understood (or thought I did) what she should be trying to say, so I'm attempting to clarify whether the disagreement is about what she should be trying to say or if it's about whether she does a poor job of it.

Linda
 
If you can prove that collapse is real, then you've just disproven the Everett Interpretation. I'm pretty sure that nobody has done so. Our perception of collapse is real. But that doesn't mean that collapse "really" happens.

It wouldn't disprove anything. The whole point of the many worlds interpretation is that the collapse is the point where different universes diverge. From our point of view it looks exactly the same as simply seeing a superposition collapse to one value. Proving the collapse is real would say nothing about which interpretation of tha collapse is correct.

I think to go any further will simply get into pointless philosophical discussions about what is "real". I see it from the point of view that collapse is seen to happen, therefore it is real, in the same way that I see wavicles as real things that can act as either particles or waves, rather than either particles or waves being real. Different people view different things as real and disagree over which bits are just convenience to make it look nicer. All the maths is the same and the answers are the same, so all these arguments are purely semantic. At the moment we simply have no way to tell what is actually the "real" answer.

Furthermore there are lots and lots of situations where multiple particles interact but do not collapse. If this were not possible, then phenomena like quantum entanglement could not exist.

That's exactly what I said.
 
Joe Vitale was on Larry King tonight talking about "the secret" and he said that Jessica Lunsford (The 9 year old girl who was kidnapped, molested repeatedly, tortured and buried alive) actually "caused" that to happen to her because she unconsciously attracted the pedophile to her life.



When I heard this I felt sick to my stomach. I just wanted to punch that fat bald freak in the face.

Oof some people waste valuable resources.
 
Missing the point?

"The Secret" video claims that people can influence the universe in very tangible ways merely by feeling the right feelings, and tries to back it up with vague claims that "quantum physics" allows this sort of thing to occur. Ms. Hansen Smythe's point, I think, is that one cannot reasonably use quantum physics to back up these claims.

What's interesting is that this forum demonstrates how easy it is to make bogus claims about quantum physics. Just trying to talk about it instantly causes an argument, so those who make outrageous claims for quantum effects get a free ride between the doubts of laymen and the difficulty for experts of describing phenomena which have no macro-world analogues.

Quibbles about whether or not the author hit the quantum nail squarely on the head or not are irrelevant to the more central idea of her article, which is that "The Secret" is a literally incredible collection of alarmingly immoral nonsense.
 

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