[Split Thread] Maori Creationism in Science lessons

[The Atheist]

People do science, and people and their culture/s are inseparable.

That is a breathtaking level of ******** right there.

 

[casebro]

People do science, and people and their culture/s are inseparable.

That is a breathtaking level of ******** right there.

Using that logic, we can have sex in the science classrooms too.

 

[W.D.Clinger]

The University of Auckland's Julie Rowland examines the notion that education should be secular and devoid of any form of spirituality....

Universities are far richer. They encompass the arts, humanities and social sciences and each discipline has its own way of making sense of the world. Quite often traditional scientific method does not come into it. The argument that casts scholars in pursuit of universal truths is a simplification that does not reflect the diversity of disciplines, thinking and experience universities have and need to fulfil their role.

https://www.newsroom.co.nz/ideasroom/science-does-not-sit-in-splendid-isolation

The highlighted part is true. This forum's archives record the antics of several university scholars whose dedicated opposition to truth gave us something to discuss.

 

[dudalb]

Of course it is ridiculous. Fairy tales belong in religious studies classes, not in science classes.

100% Agreed.
But, frankly, people often cut slack for "indigninous people" creation myths that they don't for the the Judeo Christian creation myth.

 

[Roger Ramjets]

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/ed...ng-the-wrong-debate-over-how-we-teach-science

We are having the wrong debate over how we teach science
Gaven Martin05:00, Jan 08 2022

I would like to offer a different perspective, informed by the review of mathematics education I chaired for the Royal Society of New Zealand and Ministry of Education recently....

Another slogan: “Elevating the status of mātauranga Māori is not about undermining science. It is about incorporating genuinely useful indigenous knowledge, such as approaches to environmental guardianship, that complements science.”

My view is that that is a very generous interpretation of what the NCEA changes actually offer. But more importantly, such tinkering with some NCEA standards is not going to deal with the real problems.

Because ultimately, this debate reflects a cynical ploy by the Ministry of Education, pretending to address the seriously inequitable outcomes of our system. The real issues are very hard and there is no quick fix.
All the above is simply the tip of an iceberg of failure and many in the ministry know it.

For the last two decades there has been no political will to fix this mess. Maybe our political classes agree with the Productivity Commission, that we should import those with the skills our economy needs (predominantly in science), and our children can look after the tourists.

I read this article three times and didn't get what he was trying to say. When the Distinguished Professor who chaired the Panel advising the Ministry of Education can't manage to communicate important concepts to the common man, it's hardly a surprise that we are having the wrong debate.

The Panel's review document linked to in the article provides clarity, and shows that it has given good advice to the New Zealand government,

Mathematics is often a curriculum subject parents recall in a negative light and make disparaging comments about their own abilities, like ‘I was never any good at mathematics’. These types of comments contribute to poor achievement in mathematics being seen as acceptable. However, we know that effective partnerships between parents and schools can result in better outcomes for students. Currently, in New Zealand and internationally, little is known of how families interact in ways related to STEM outside of the school setting. Even less is known about everyday practices related to mathematics of families from non-dominant communities...

A key theoretical framework that underpins much of the work on parent and community engagement is ‘funds of knowledge’. This is underpinned by the belief that all people and cultures have bodies of knowledge and skills that are historically accumulated, culturally developed, and support individual/household functioning and wellbeing. Developing asset-based approaches means acknowledging, valuing, and building upon the funds of knowledge all participants hold. These parent and community engagement initiatives could be part of a nationwide campaign to promote mathematics and statistics education in communities.

But who bothered to read it? So many people are arguing a straw man created not just by the news media, but also 'scientists' whose own educational skills are lacking.

 

[Roger Ramjets]

100% Agreed.
But, frankly, people often cut slack for "indigninous people" creation myths that they don't for the the Judeo Christian creation myth.

Really? The vast majority of Europeans have been so indoctrinated by Judeo Christianity that we will never get it out of our heads. It has infused our culture for millennia and colors our thoughts. But it is typical arrogance of the white man to assert that our culture is somehow above the corrupting influence of religion that lesser races fall prey to.

 

[ThatGuy11200]

Really? The vast majority of Europeans have been so indoctrinated by Judeo Christianity that we will never get it out of our heads. It has infused our culture for millennia and colors our thoughts. But it is typical arrogance of the white man to assert that our culture is somehow above the corrupting influence of religion that lesser races fall prey to.

Then how has it coloured science?

 

[Graham2001]

From the 'Horses Mouth', namely the University of Waikato...

In recognising the importance of Te Tiriti o Waitangi / The Treaty of Waitangi and emābracing our motto Ko Te Tangata / For the People, diversity, equity and inclusion figure prominently in this Academic Plan. Teaching for diversity means acknowledging and working with all students’ lived experiences. Equitable teaching and learning is available to all, is fair and just. Inclusive teaching and learning happen in environments where everyone feels a sense of belonging, that are equally accessible for all, and are welcoming for all.’ In addition, the Plan acknowledges the important role that Māori, and also Pacific learners, teachers or educators, families and communities play in enhancing the mana of the University of Waikato. Pacific peoples have a rich history and tradition of knowledge and learning which the University is keen to harness in order to ensure our Pacific students flourish and excel.

1. 2022 - 2024 Strategy Document


https://www.waikato.ac.nz/__data/as...of-Waikato-Strategy-2022-2024_web-version.pdf


2. Research Plan 2022 - 2026


https://www.waikato.ac.nz/about/gov...ng/research/Research-Plan-2022-2026-Final.pdf


3. Academic Plan 2022 - 2026


https://www.waikato.ac.nz/about/gov...Academic-Plan-2022-2026-26-Nov-2021-FINAL.pdf

 

[The Atheist]

From the 'Horses Mouth', namely the University of Waikato...

I'm not sure I'd call any NZ university the horse's mouth in the year 2022. They've been bending over so far backwards to be seen to be Tiriti-friendly for the past couple of decades that their main motivation is just - to be seen to doing something. At no stage has anyone tried to use actual research to show more positive outcomes result from the plans.

All this does make me wonder, though.

As to what percentage of our horribly-limited education budget is being thrown at 21st century political correctness. I suspect it might be a surprisingly large number.

 

[skepticsalamander]

The Maori people eant to teach bronze age man-made superstition in the science class? Just great....

 

[The Atheist]

The Maori people eant to teach bronze age man-made superstition in the science class? Just great....

Just a small correction: stone age. Maori were neolithic.

And that's something you will not find being taught anywhere, with it being racist to even point it out.

Even facts can be racist.

 

[arthwollipot]

For those who are interested, Rebecca Watson has weighed in, with what I think is an appropriately nuanced examination. In two parts, with video but also with transcripts.

Teaching Indigenous Knowledge in the Science Classroom (Part 1: Colonization)

Teaching Indigenous Knowledge in the Science Classroom (Part 2: Myth vs Science)

 

[Graham2001]

Apologies for the necropost, but the latest materials on NZ's education 'Refresh' are in.


1. Te Mataiaho (Draft For Feedback)

We begin with the karakia for Te Mātaiaho, as it signals the intent of the proposed refresh of the New Zealand Curriculum. ‘Mātai’ means to study deliberately, examine, and observe, and ‘aho’ describes the many strands and threads of learning. Te Mātaiaho intends to be a curriculum that is Te-Tiriti-honouring, inclusive, clear, and easy to use. We have developed this draft of Te Mātaiaho for schools to test, so that we can get a sense of what works well and what can be improved further.

In this draft, you’ll see many of the current New Zealand Curriculum components in refreshed form. You’ll also see several new sections, such as statements on Te Tiriti o Waitangi and theories and approaches. Not all components are fully developed yet, but we are keen to get your feedback on the pieces we have created so far, which follow on from the first initiative in the curriculum refresh, the development of Aotearoa New Zealand’s histories.

https://curriculumrefresh-live-asse...df?VersionId=NcP2C6bv8ElasJlXbg7oZJLFRqlkef.E


2. MOE0038 - Refresh Booklet V 0.9


https://curriculumrefresh-live-asse...df?VersionId=D8srztkEV2B1HPdOSaON94wC9CVUtV.M

 

[Planigale]

I think this is reasonable, whilst i do not think you can have Maori mathematics, you can certainly have a Maori view on history, environmental studies, literature etc. It seems only reasonable that you should have a curriculum that balances Maori (and Pacifika) and Pakeha cultures.

 

[Samson]

I think this is reasonable, whilst i do not think you can have Maori mathematics, you can certainly have a Maori view on history, environmental studies, literature etc. It seems only reasonable that you should have a curriculum that balances Maori (and Pacifika) and Pakeha cultures.

Chinese, Indian, Korean, and Phillipine students feature strongly too.

Here are the numbers

https://figure.nz/chart/Kek22tXlA4BCMwqb

It is also worth noting that Maori typically means 1/16th or more Maori ancestry, very seldom more than 50%, whereas Pakeha generally means 100%, so the numbers are grossly misleading.
You might read this, considered definitive by many liberal New Zealanders

https://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/PA0401/S00220/nationhood-don-brash-speech-orewa-rotary-club.htm

 

[theprestige]

I think this is reasonable, whilst i do not think you can have Maori mathematics, you can certainly have a Maori view on history, environmental studies, literature etc. It seems only reasonable that you should have a curriculum that balances Maori (and Pacifika) and Pakeha cultures.

I don't think the issue is a Maori view on history, etc. I think the issue is a Maori view on epistemology, and the kind of history, etc. curricula that might emerge from such an epistemological viewpoint.

 

[arthwollipot]

"Might emerge". As far as I can tell this new document is still seeking feedback. Nothing is definitive yet.

 

[theprestige]

"Might emerge". As far as I can tell this new document is still seeking feedback. Nothing is definitive yet.

Then this is the ideal time to raise concerns, examine assumptions, and if necessary block "progress".

 

[arthwollipot]

Then this is the ideal time to raise concerns, examine assumptions, and if necessary block "progress".

And provide the feedback they are explicitly soliciting, if you are so inclined.

 

[Planigale]

I don't think the issue is a Maori view on history, etc. I think the issue is a Maori view on epistemology, and the kind of history, etc. curricula that might emerge from such an epistemological viewpoint.

Thank you, that is probably a more technically correct way of expressing the issue than I used in my brief post.

 

[Roger Ramjets]

It is also worth noting that Maori typically means 1/16th or more Maori ancestry, very seldom more than 50%, whereas Pakeha generally means 100%, so the numbers are grossly misleading.

Many of us are familiar with that principle.

It's not the ancestry that's important, but the culture. How many of those '1/16th or more' identify in part or whole as Maori and/or think their Maori part is important?

BTW,

Pākehā (or Pakeha without macrons; /ˈpɑːkɛhɑː, -kiːhɑː, -kiːə/; Māori pronunciation: [ˈpaːkɛhaː]) is a Māori-language term for New Zealanders primarily of European descent. Pākehā is not a legal concept and has no definition under New Zealand law. The term can apply to fair-skinned persons, or to any non-Māori New Zealander.

'European descent' covers a wide range of cultures, but they all have one thing in common - colonizing land with brown people on it, then pretending they own it and forcing their culture onto the locals. Finally, after the locals are decimated by the diseases and drugs etc. that the colonizers brought with them, they assert their inherent superiority.

 

[Samson]

Many of us are familiar with that principle.

It's not the ancestry that's important, but the culture. How many of those '1/16th or more' identify in part or whole as Maori and/or think their Maori part is important?

BTW,



'European descent' covers a wide range of cultures, but they all have one thing in common - colonizing land with brown people on it, then pretending they own it and forcing their culture onto the locals. Finally, after the locals are decimated by the diseases and drugs etc. that the colonizers brought with them, they assert their inherent superiority.

Everyone uses western designed technology.
I use it but am way too ordinary to have designed it.
There are 2 facts to wrestle with.

 

[Graham2001]

What is taught to young children...


https://www.education.govt.nz/asset...hariki-Early-Childhood-Curriculum-ENG-Web.pdf

 

[arthwollipot]

What is taught to young children...


https://www.education.govt.nz/asset...hariki-Early-Childhood-Curriculum-ENG-Web.pdf

Can anyone summarise for those of us without the time or the inclination to peruse a 70-page policy document?

 

[The Atheist]

Can anyone summarise for those of us without the time or the inclination to peruse a 70-page policy document?

Nonsense, mostly.

If it's in a Maori legend, it's taught as an alternative to facts and evidence and when little kids are involved, I doubt their ability to tell the difference.

And we already see it, with two glaring factual errors:

Maori language was banned at school.

Maori discovered Antarctica.

Both utter baloney, but taught as NZ history.

 

[jt512]

What is the perceived downside of this?

According to a Kiwi friend of mine who is a chemistry professor at an Australian university, the actual downside is that it is spells the end of science of any sort of quality in New Zealand. School students in New Zealand will now only get half as much science education as science students in other countries. This will put them behind students in other countries in science when they enter University, and will leave them behind when they graduate. They will not be able to compete for students from other countries for spots in decent graduate programs, and hence will never be able to excel in their chosen field. It means that New Zealand has doomed itself to a future where, at best, mediocre science is conducted.

 

[arthwollipot]

Nonsense, mostly.

If it's in a Maori legend, it's taught as an alternative to facts and evidence and when little kids are involved, I doubt their ability to tell the difference.

And we already see it, with two glaring factual errors:

Maori language was banned at school.

Maori discovered Antarctica.

Both utter baloney, but taught as NZ history.

Okay, well I have actually found the time to skim read through most of the document (please don't tell my boss), and though I may have missed a few details - there are a lot of te reo Māori terms that I'm not familiar with - as far as I can tell this is a document detailing pedagogical methodology, specifying how young children are to be taught without going into what they are taught. I can find no reference to Māori legends being taught as alternative to facts, for example. I can find no reference to Māori folklore at all. Also, I note that this is an early childhood curriculum, referring to infants and toddlers, who aren't generally being taught much in the way of science anyway.

I did find this passage (p.22):

Children construct knowledge as they make meaning of their world. Knowledge is cultural, social and material. It draws on cultural, aesthetic, historical, social, scientific, technological, mathematical and geographical information.

Skills are what children can do; they are what make interaction in and with the world possible. Skills include capabilities as different as being
able to move through space, make a friend, express an idea or use a specific tool.

Children’s attitudes are viewpoints or positions that reflect their values or beliefs.

Knowledge, skills and attitudes combine as dispositions, which are tendencies to respond to situations in particular ways. As children learn, they develop a growing repertoire of dispositions and the ability to use them in ways that are sensitive to the context.

The learning outcomes of Te Whāriki include knowledge, skills and attitudes, which combine as dispositions and working theories.

And this does not strike me as a particularly onerous pedagogical goal, especially for early childhood. I'm still not seeing Māori creationism in science lessons (as per the thread title) from this document.

 

[Samson]

Okay, well I have actually found the time to skim read through most of the document (please don't tell my boss), and though I may have missed a few details - there are a lot of te reo Māori terms that I'm not familiar with - as far as I can tell this is a document detailing pedagogical methodology, specifying how young children are to be taught without going into what they are taught. I can find no reference to Māori legends being taught as alternative to facts, for example. I can find no reference to Māori folklore at all. Also, I note that this is an early childhood curriculum, referring to infants and toddlers, who aren't generally being taught much in the way of science anyway.

I did find this passage (p.22):

And this does not strike me as a particularly onerous pedagogical goal, especially for early childhood. I'm still not seeing Māori creationism in science lessons (as per the thread title) from this document.

If children are taught to read and write English efficiently with phonetics, and arithmetic with rote times tables etc, that other stuff will be naturally identified as fragrant turds.

 

[Roger Ramjets]

According to a Kiwi friend of mine who is a chemistry professor at an Australian university, the actual downside is that it is spells the end of science of any sort of quality in New Zealand. School students in New Zealand will now only get half as much science education as science students in other countries. This will put them behind students in other countries in science when they enter University, and will leave them behind when they graduate. They will not be able to compete for students from other countries for spots in decent graduate programs, and hence will never be able to excel in their chosen field. It means that New Zealand has doomed itself to a future where, at best, mediocre science is conducted.

The horror!

I wonder though, exactly what have 'students who excel' done for New Zealand? Have they done anything effective to halt global warming? Because if they haven't their 'excellent' science is worthless.

 

[jt512]

I wonder though, exactly what have 'students who excel' done for New Zealand? Have they done anything effective to halt global warming? Because if they haven't their 'excellent' science is worthless.

And into the killfile you go. *plonk*

 

[The Atheist]

I can find no reference to Māori legends being taught as alternative to facts, for example.

Well, it's happening in classrooms, and it looks to me like it's covered it in the bit you quoted:

Knowledge is cultural, social and material. It draws on cultural, aesthetic, historical, social, scientific, technological, mathematical and geographical information.

Cultural includes legends.

The horror!

I wonder though, exactly what have 'students who excel' done for New Zealand? Have they done anything effective to halt global warming? Because if they haven't their 'excellent' science is worthless.

I've seen some stupid posts in my time, but that takes the supreme award.

Given no other scientists around the world have solved global warming, suggesting NZ scientists are lacking by not doing so is beyond laughable.

Here's a handy list of NZ scientists for you: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_New_Zealand_scientists

 

[jt512]

The horror!

I wonder though, exactly what have 'students who excel' done for New Zealand? Have they done anything effective to halt global warming? Because if they haven't their 'excellent' science is worthless.

I've seen some stupid posts in my time, but that takes the supreme award.

Given no other scientists around the world have solved global warming, suggesting NZ scientists are lacking by not doing so is beyond laughable.

Here's a handy list of NZ scientists for you: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_New_Zealand_scientists

I admire your patience, which is infinitely greater than mine. The advantage of my response to Roger, however, is that I will not be subjected to future stupid posts from this individual.

 

[8enotto]

In 1981 the US state I lived in passed a law that creation must be taught in science classes.

A rather non religious teacher fulfilled the law with a "god did it" according to the bible. It took all of a few minutes.
Nobody seemed to care it was never mentioned again.
I am sure the author of said law was aiming for much more.

It had zero impact on public education.

The kids are smarter than lawmakers. They will see irrelevance clearly and go with more solid subjects.

 

[Samson]

In 1981 the US state I lived in passed a law that creation must be taught in science classes.

A rather non religious teacher fulfilled the law with a "god did it" according to the bible. It took all of a few minutes.
Nobody seemed to care it was never mentioned again.
I am sure the author of said law was aiming for much more.

It had zero impact on public education.

The kids are smarter than lawmakers. They will see irrelevance clearly and go with more solid subjects.

Unfortunately this is not so.
We consider our kids uneducated by our old fashioned standards. They have never heard the aphorisms and quite that serve to quickly illuminate a point being made. As one example. They do not read books.

 

[Samson]

In 1981 the US state I lived in passed a law that creation must be taught in science classes.

A rather non religious teacher fulfilled the law with a "god did it" according to the bible. It took all of a few minutes.
Nobody seemed to care it was never mentioned again.
I am sure the author of said law was aiming for much more.

It had zero impact on public education.

The kids are smarter than lawmakers. They will see irrelevance clearly and go with more solid subjects.

Unfortunately this is not so.
We consider our kids uneducated by our old fashioned standards. They have never heard the aphorisms and quotes that serve to quickly illuminate a point being made. As one example. They do not read books. And so on.

 

[Roger Ramjets]

Given no other scientists around the world have solved global warming, suggesting NZ scientists are lacking by not doing so is beyond laughable.

Scientists 'solved' global warming years ago. The problem is nobody is applying their solution. If a Maori perspective can change this it will be worth far more that it loses by making NZ scientists 'mediocre'.

But hey, maybe I'm just angry because all these 'excellent' scientists haven't managed to convince governments to take real action against global warming. Maybe being without power, internet and phone service for several days, and supermarkets with empty shelves, and the howling wind and trees uprooted and rivers overflowing with dirty water and debris, and worrying about whether my house will go underwater or about friends who are cut off because all the bridges in Hawkes Bay are washed out and the roads are covered in slips, maybe witnessing all this devastation and realizing it won't be the last time it happens because people won't listen to what even 'mediocre' scientists tell them has pushed me over the edge.

 

[Samson]

Scientists 'solved' global warming years ago. The problem is nobody is applying their solution. If a Maori perspective can change this it will be worth far more that it loses by making NZ scientists 'mediocre'.

But hey, maybe I'm just angry because all these 'excellent' scientists haven't managed to convince governments to take real action against global warming. Maybe being without power, internet and phone service for several days, and supermarkets with empty shelves, and the howling wind and trees uprooted and rivers overflowing with dirty water and debris, and worrying about whether my house will go underwater or about friends who are cut off because all the bridges in Hawkes Bay are washed out and the roads are covered in slips, maybe witnessing all this devastation and realizing it won't be the last time it happens because people won't listen to what even 'mediocre' scientists tell them has pushed me over the edge.

Sorry to lose you cos of our dismal record Roger
I generally agree, but you have no idea what it's like having mythology and a hoax language dominating public discourse.

 

[The Atheist]

If a Maori perspective can change this...

I'm not sure whether you mean the Maori bloke who's most famous for killing an iconic tree is now suing the government for failing to address climate change...

Or the fact that Maori emissions are higher than Pakeha emissions?

Greenhouse gas emissions from the Māori economy accounts
for 11.2% of New Zealand’s emissions profile, despite the Māori economy making up 6.4% of New Zealand’s GDP

Maybe being without power, internet and phone service for several days, and supermarkets with empty shelves, and the howling wind and trees uprooted and rivers overflowing with dirty water and debris, and worrying about whether my house will go underwater or about friends who are cut off because all the bridges in Hawkes Bay are washed out and the roads are covered in slips, maybe witnessing all this devastation and realizing it won't be the last time it happens because people won't listen to what even 'mediocre' scientists tell them has pushed me over the edge.

Nah, I think you'd have to been over it for ages to say something that stupid.

You'll find lots of friends in our Greenmunist Party - they're saying exactly the same thing.

Given that NZ contributes a whopping 0.09% of global emissions, (yes, not even 1/10th of one percent) if we stopped all emissions right now it wouldn't make the slightest bit of difference.

 

[arthwollipot]

Well, it's happening in classrooms, and it looks to me like it's covered it in the bit you quoted:

Cultural includes legends.

Sure, but it's listed alongside historical, social, scientific, technological, mathematical and geographical information, so the idea that legends replace science in this curriculum is laughable.

Scientists 'solved' global warming years ago. The problem is nobody is applying their solution.

That's a political problem, not a scientific one.

 

[The Atheist]

Sure, but it's listed alongside historical, social, scientific, technological, mathematical and geographical information, so the idea that legends replace science in this curriculum is laughable.

I didn't suggest it replaces anything, but it's given equal time and status in the classroom.

And Maori "discovering" Antarctica is now taught as fact, when there is zero evidence to back it up, and a wealth of scientific, historical and geographical data to say it's nonsense.