Man arrested for Delphi murders

pgwenthold

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Getting out ahead of this one because it will at some point go to trial. This is the case of the murders of Abby and Libby in Delphi, IN, 5 years ago

https://www.cnn.com/2022/10/31/us/delphi-teen-killings-indiana-state-police-update

A Delphi resident has now been arrested. The police are being very tight-lipped on the evidence. It's pissing a lot of people off who think they are entitled, but they want to secure the conviction and don't want to screw anything up.

There are a lot of questions and rumors (did his wife turn him in? She had to have recognized him in the video that they had), but that's about it.

This happened fairly local to me (I drive by the Abby and Libby Memorial Softball fields on occasion, and my wife spends some time in Delphi now and then), but we don't know anything more than anyone else. We're waiting for the trial, which is supposed to be in the spring.
 
pgwenthold said:
Getting out ahead of this one because it will at some point go to trial. This is the case of the murders of Abby and Libby in Delphi, IN, 5 years ago

https://www.cnn.com/2022/10/31/us/delphi-teen-killings-indiana-state-police-update

A Delphi resident has now been arrested. The police are being very tight-lipped on the evidence. It's pissing a lot of people off who think they are entitled, but they want to secure the conviction and don't want to screw anything up.

There are a lot of questions and rumors (did his wife turn him in? She had to have recognized him in the video that they had), but that's about it.

This happened fairly local to me (I drive by the Abby and Libby Memorial Softball fields on occasion, and my wife spends some time in Delphi now and then), but we don't know anything more than anyone else. We're waiting for the trial, which is supposed to be in the spring.
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I might have seen a YouTube video* about this around the time it happened. One of the girls had a photo of the suspect and audio of his voice.


*ETA: Found it

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m7LopVJddaU
 
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smartcooky said:
I might have seen a YouTube video* about this around the time it happened. One of the girls had a photo of the suspect and audio of his voice.
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Not just a photo, but a video, with audio

That's why people have been saying that they can't believe his wife didn't recognize him.

Heck, my thought was, hey, do you know anyone that has that kind of hat? It's not very common, so that would already create a short list.

I used to wear that hat ...in high school. Long before this happened, so it wasn't me.

I should have added, they have been showing pictures of the subject with the sketches created. Granting there are a lot of generalities that happen in sketches, but still, yeah, that's a pretty close resemblance.

In that case, I could forgive someone close to the person for denying a resemblance, but there was so much more available.
 
Yeah, but typically one doesn’t believe a spouse/brother/relative could possibly be involved in something so heinous. Every killer out there has/had neighbors/relatives/spouses, etc. I think it is human nature to assume people in our lives are inherently good people.
 
I've been in Fort Wayne (Indiana) for the past week visiting relatives, and this story has been all over the news. Delphi is right on the way from Fort Wayne to West Lafayette, so I used to drive through it all the time when I was at Purdue.

The county court has been overwhelmed by the media and other attention, with the lone judge asking the Indiana Supreme Court for help managing the situation. He has also recused himself from the case, presumably due to the fact that people have posted videos with his personal information, including the names of his family members. So the Supreme Court has assigned a judge from Allen County (Fort Wayne) to take over the case.

I have to say that I think this behavior is reprehensible; presumably the prosecutor had a good reason for moving that the indictment be sealed, and people should accept that.
 
SpitfireIX said:
I've been in Fort Wayne (Indiana) for the past week visiting relatives, and this story has been all over the news. Delphi is right on the way from Fort Wayne to West Lafayette, so I used to drive through it all the time when I was at Purdue.

The county court has been overwhelmed by the media and other attention, with the lone judge asking the Indiana Supreme Court for help managing the situation. He has also recused himself from the case, presumably due to the fact that people have posted videos with his personal information, including the names of his family members. So the Supreme Court has assigned a judge from Allen County (Fort Wayne) to take over the case.

I have to say that I think this behavior is reprehensible; presumably the prosecutor had a good reason for moving that the indictment be sealed, and people should accept that.
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Yeah, he has been moved into the state pen in an undisclosed location, even, if I remember right.

The last update I heard is that he has requested a public defender.
 
I just read about the probable cause affidavit. The physical evidence that was the basis was that a bullet casing found at the site was traced to his weapon.
 
Innocent until proven guilty and all that, but if true...

You got the bastard, girls.
 
pgwenthold said:
I just read about the probable cause affidavit. The physical evidence that was the basis was that a bullet casing found at the site was traced to his weapon.
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According to how I read it, it wasn't a bullet casing, it was a complete unspent cartridge that had been cycled through his weapon (presumably identified by ejector marks), and it was found between the girl's bodies. (see page 2 - 3rd full paragraph)

https://www.documentcloud.org/docum...e=1?embed=true&responsive=false&sidebar=false

We don't know if the girls were shot because a cause of death has still not been released.

In any case, this probable cause seems a bit weak, so I'm wondering if they have other more compelling evidence that would have been a stronger probable cause, but they didn't use it knowing this document would be among the first to be released to the media/public?
 
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toolmark comparisons

"“The (Indiana State Police) Laboratory determined the unspent round…had been cycled through…Allen’s SIG-Sauer P226.” In other words, investigators believe the bullet had been loaded in the handgun, and ejected unfired.

That action leaves unique marks says retired IMPS Det. Sgt. Gregg Arkins, “When you pull back on the slide, the extractor grabs ahold of the round and the extractor is made of hard metal where the shell casing is made of slightly softer metal. So, it leaves very unique microscopic scratches on the shell casing.”" FOX59
I also found this: "Occasionally extractor marks are sufficiently repetitive and distinctive in character to permit matching under the comparison microscope, consequently they should always be looked for. Ejector marks are less likely to be found, and when present they are rarely amenable to profitable comparison with the microscope. However, the position of the ejector mark and the extractor mark (if such marks be present) with respect to the location of the firing pin impression is important and will be discussed later."

I would like to see statistics on any feature comparison technique, including toolmark comparisons, such as this one.
 
smartcooky said:
According to how I read it, it wasn't a bullet casing, it was a complete unspent cartridge that had been cycled through his weapon (presumably identified by ejector marks), and it was found between the girl's bodies. (see page 2 - 3rd full paragraph)

https://www.documentcloud.org/docum...e=1?embed=true&responsive=false&sidebar=false

We don't know if the girls were shot because a cause of death has still not been released.

In any case, this probable cause seems a bit weak, so I'm wondering if they have other more compelling evidence that would have been a stronger probable cause, but they didn't use it knowing this document would be among the first to be released to the media/public?
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I think this could be the extent of the "probable cause" justification, but then again, when it goes to trial, they are going to do things like, show the video and say, "see, it's him!" and they are going to have, for example, voice analysis that shows that it is his voice on the video. And they will have people who know him testify that they recognize him in the video. These types of things don't work so well in terms of a probable cause affidavit (you can't just say, "we want to arrest him because he looks like the guy in the video"), but will be just fine in front of a jury.
 
Chris_Halkides said:
"“The (Indiana State Police) Laboratory determined the unspent round…had been cycled through…Allen’s SIG-Sauer P226.” In other words, investigators believe the bullet had been loaded in the handgun, and ejected unfired.

That action leaves unique marks says retired IMPS Det. Sgt. Gregg Arkins, “When you pull back on the slide, the extractor grabs ahold of the round and the extractor is made of hard metal where the shell casing is made of slightly softer metal. So, it leaves very unique microscopic scratches on the shell casing.”" FOX59
I also found this: "Occasionally extractor marks are sufficiently repetitive and distinctive in character to permit matching under the comparison microscope, consequently they should always be looked for. Ejector marks are less likely to be found, and when present they are rarely amenable to profitable comparison with the microscope. However, the position of the ejector mark and the extractor mark (if such marks be present) with respect to the location of the firing pin impression is important and will be discussed later."

I would like to see statistics on any feature comparison technique, including toolmark comparisons, such as this one.
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Yeah, as a mentioned above, I don't think their case is going to rely on this. I think this was just an excuse for arresting the guy. The video is what is going to convict him.
 
I'm not familiar with the video. How much of a smoking gun is it (so to speak)?

I favor the death penalty, but I don't think our legal system is reliable enough to trust them with it. So I find myself wondering, is this enough evidence to justify executing someone? If not, how can it be enough evidence to justify incarcerating them for life?

---

Maybe sentences of prison time in "capital" cases should be adjusted based on how confident we are that this is the right person. 100% confidence? Might as well execute. 97-99% confident? Life in prison. 90-96% confidence? Some lesser term. Anything below that starts slipping from "beyond reasonable doubt" into "preponderance of evidence", and probably calls for a mistrial.
 
theprestige said:
Maybe sentences of prison time in "capital" cases should be adjusted based on how confident we are that this is the right person. 100% confidence? Might as well execute. 97-99% confident? Life in prison. 90-96% confidence? Some lesser term. Anything below that starts slipping from "beyond reasonable doubt" into "preponderance of evidence", and probably calls for a mistrial.
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Who is 'we'?
 
From the probable cause it looks like Richard Allen popped up on their radar after a re-shuffle of collected evidence statements. A male matching his description was seen on the trail by three girls, and another witness. No other males were seen in the park during the time-frame of the murders. A .40 caliber bullet was found between the bodies (the cause of death has not been specified, but they were not shot). A man matching the description made by the other witnesses was seen leaving the park at a location close to the cemetery covered in "mud and blood". A car matching Allen's vehicle was seen parked in the lot of the abandoned CPS building (although descriptions of this car vary).

Richard Allen had made a report to a Park Warden the next day stating he had been in the park, but didn't see the girls.

A search of his home recovered a .40 Glock. When tested by the Indian State Crime Lab the ejector marks on the casing "matched" this gun. Allen had no explanation as to why a bullet from his gun was found next to the bodies, but did state he never loaned his gun out to friends.

My take, not that anyone cares, is that he's the best suspect they've had in this case since Kegan Kline, and it was his arrest on unrelated child porn charges where he has admitted to catfishing Libby German on Instagram using a fake account to get revealing photos. Kline's account had been in communication with German, and had allegedly set up a meeting at park for that day, but Kline never showed...or maybe someone else did. The problem is that Kline is a card-carrying douchebag, and has been stringing the Indiana State Police and FBI along in hopes of getting a lighter sentence. The main problem with Kline is no one can put him at the park on the day of the murders, even though everything about his and his scumbag father's actions before and after the murders screams "guilty".

But then Richard Allen popped up, and he owns a gun matching the caliber of bullet found at the crime scene. And he admitted to being in the park on the day of the murders, and his car is seen on video camera arriving and leaving within the time-frame of the murders, and if he had been on the bridge when he stated he had been, he would have seen the victims.

I doubt they'll go for the death penalty unless they have better evidence than publicly stated. This case has been web-sleuth fodder for five years, and finding a jury will be hard work. I hope I'm wrong. I hope they have more physical evidence that leads to a needle in his arm, but par for the course with this case suggests otherwise.
 
There's a lot more information about the unsealed documents here, at the Chicago NBC affiliate's website.

Additional details include the fact that a knife was used and, according to his attorneys, Allen seems to be showing signs of psychosis.
 
gun and knife

SpitfireIX said:
There's a lot more information about the unsealed documents here, at the Chicago NBC affiliate's website.

Additional details include the fact that a knife was used and, according to his attorneys, Allen seems to be showing signs of psychosis.
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"The newly released documents also include a note that investigators believe both a gun and knife were involved in the murders of the two girls and that clothing items, including underwear and socks, were missing from the crime scene." I read that for one person to use both a knife and a gun is statistically unlikely, but I don't recall the details. This comment should not be construed as an opinion on whether or not Mr. Allen is guilty.
 
Granting, arguendo, that he's guilty, I suspect that he threatened the girls with the gun, possibly chambering a round in the process, to get them to move off the trail, and then killed them with the knife. Possibly he did this in order to avoid having the noise of shots heard by other hikers. The single unfired bullet could have been deposited at the crime scene if he ejected the pistol's magazine and then worked the slide to empty the chamber.
 
theprestige said:
You lost me. Why the rush? What's so important that you have to get out ahead of it? Why you? Is your ahead-ness somehow significant in ways not readily apparent?
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Yes, I have an interest in the case. I've driven by the Abby and Libby memoroal softball fields in Delphi numerous times, and i know exactly where the bridge is where this all happened. I also have kids that are the same age as they were at the time.

This case hits very close to home for me.

And why start? Because it will go to trial at some point but there are things about the case to discuss before the trial starts.
 
Local TV news is reporting this morning that the trial, which was supposed to start next week, has been postponed until October:

FORT WAYNE, Ind. (WPTA) - After a contentious hearing at the Allen County Courthouse Tuesday, the Delphi murders trial has been pushed back six months to October.

Allen County Superior Court Judge Fran Gull ruled that the trial for Richard Allen, the man accused of killing Abigail Williams, 13, and Liberty German, 14, in February 2017, will also gain ten days. It was previously set to begin next week and last only 15 days compared to the 25 it is now planned to be.

For comparison, an average murder trial in Allen County lasts between four to five days. . . .

Prosecutors also requested that certain terms – including Odinism, cult or ritualistic killing – be banned during jury selection to avoid misleading the jury, creating prejudice or confusing potential jurors. They also asked for the names of people listed in court documents throughout the investigation or as witnesses to be banned.

Allen’s attorneys argue that multiple people with direct ties to Odinism were dismissed as potential suspects early in the investigation without reason.​

So apparently Allen's attorneys are planning to claim that it was actually some sort of cult ritual killing. :rolleyes:

BTW, as you can see from my location, I'm back living in Indiana now, so I should be able to follow the case more closely.
 
SpitfireIX said:
Local TV news is reporting this morning that the trial, which was supposed to start next week, has been postponed until October:

FORT WAYNE, Ind. (WPTA) - After a contentious hearing at the Allen County Courthouse Tuesday, the Delphi murders trial has been pushed back six months to October.

Allen County Superior Court Judge Fran Gull ruled that the trial for Richard Allen, the man accused of killing Abigail Williams, 13, and Liberty German, 14, in February 2017, will also gain ten days. It was previously set to begin next week and last only 15 days compared to the 25 it is now planned to be.

For comparison, an average murder trial in Allen County lasts between four to five days. . . .

Prosecutors also requested that certain terms – including Odinism, cult or ritualistic killing – be banned during jury selection to avoid misleading the jury, creating prejudice or confusing potential jurors. They also asked for the names of people listed in court documents throughout the investigation or as witnesses to be banned.

Allen’s attorneys argue that multiple people with direct ties to Odinism were dismissed as potential suspects early in the investigation without reason.​

So apparently Allen's attorneys are planning to claim that it was actually some sort of cult ritual killing. :rolleyes:

BTW, as you can see from my location, I'm back living in Indiana now, so I should be able to follow the case more closely.
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Well, well, the Odinic Rite returns. Maybe the defense will go for some sort of 'white supremacist' alternate suspect thing?
 
SpitfireIX said:
Local TV news is reporting this morning that the trial, which was supposed to start next week, has been postponed until October:

FORT WAYNE, Ind. (WPTA) - After a contentious hearing at the Allen County Courthouse Tuesday, the Delphi murders trial has been pushed back six months to October.

Allen County Superior Court Judge Fran Gull ruled that the trial for Richard Allen, the man accused of killing Abigail Williams, 13, and Liberty German, 14, in February 2017, will also gain ten days. It was previously set to begin next week and last only 15 days compared to the 25 it is now planned to be.

For comparison, an average murder trial in Allen County lasts between four to five days. . . .

Prosecutors also requested that certain terms – including Odinism, cult or ritualistic killing – be banned during jury selection to avoid misleading the jury, creating prejudice or confusing potential jurors. They also asked for the names of people listed in court documents throughout the investigation or as witnesses to be banned.

Allen’s attorneys argue that multiple people with direct ties to Odinism were dismissed as potential suspects early in the investigation without reason.​

So apparently Allen's attorneys are planning to claim that it was actually some sort of cult ritual killing. :rolleyes:
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All those Satanic Cults running around central Indiana. Likely Purdue faculty who voted for Hillary.

I fell left out, no one's ever contacted me. But it's been a few years since I've been on the faculty senate.
 
Sorry I didn't post about this sooner; I've been kind of preoccupied with work, other news (I thought I heard something about an election?) and life events lately. A quick update: The trial is in progress; basically his defense is going to be that the police screwed up the investigation, and that his confession was due to psychosis caused by his having been held in solitary confinement.
 
SpitfireIX said:
Sorry I didn't post about this sooner; I've been kind of preoccupied with work, other news (I thought I heard something about an election?) and life events lately. A quick update: The trial is in progress; basically his defense is going to be that the police screwed up the investigation, and that his confession was due to psychosis caused by his having been held in solitary confinement.
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Yeah, I've been seeing it go on. I haven't paid attention to the details of the testimony, etc, though.

Personally, I am one that worries about "confessions" and especially vague confessions, but the bigger issue is the physical evidence. Seriously, they have video of the guy. I think he's admitted being there at the bridge on that day, but just insisting he didn't do the murder? Something like that.
 
I forgot to mention that they did, as I suspected they would, draw the jury from Allen County, of which Fort Wayne is the county seat. Recall that the Indiana Supreme Court assigned a judge from Allen County to take over the case after the only local county judge recused himself. The new judge ruled that the jury would be drawn from another county, due to to pre-trial publicity in Delphi.

My brother got a summons for jury duty for this quarter, so there was a chance that he could have been on the jury. However, he called the clerk's office and asked to be excused on the grounds that he's the primary caregiver for our mother, who's an invalid, and he said this was approved.
 
Allen supporters are whining that the defense wasn't allowed to present their "satanic cult" defense.
 
Satanic Cult? I wasn't aware and will read/listen. This Monster is creepy enough on his own, and involvement with Satan is off the creepy meter.
 
On 20 September 2023 Fox News reported, "Allen's attorneys go on to name five Indiana men who they say should be considered suspects in the Delphi murders. Baldwin and Rozzi tied one of the men to the murders due to his social media posts, which they say appear to replicate details of the crime scene that have not been revealed to the public. They also say his son "dated" Abby. The defense claims one of the men admitted to his sister that he murdered the two girls, and that another man drunkenly admitted to killing the girls. They included the other two men in the group of possible suspects due to their ties to the other three."
It sounds as if they were claiming a cult steeped in Odinism. I report, you decide.
 
The defense claims.

There is basically no basis for any of their claims, and it's all based on fantasy, but they claim it....

But "the murders have all the earmarks of being tied to Odinism"

If we make up things and claim they are earmarks of Odinism. Like "how the sticks covering the bodies were arranged." How do Odinists arrange sticks? Well, no real basis for that, so just make it all up.

Basically, that was the judge's ruling. You can't just make stuff up about what Odinism would look like.
 
One of the saddest things I have ever read was in the medical report. There was fluid in the eyes as a result of strangulation. But they were mixed with the tears cried by the girls as they were dying. It had been speculated the girls were already passed before the strangulation. No, they were crying as they knew they were dying. This man is a monster.
 
pgwenthold said:
The defense claims.

There is basically no basis for any of their claims, and it's all based on fantasy, but they claim it....

But "the murders have all the earmarks of being tied to Odinism"

If we make up things and claim they are earmarks of Odinism. Like "how the sticks covering the bodies were arranged." How do Odinists arrange sticks? Well, no real basis for that, so just make it all up.

Basically, that was the judge's ruling. You can't just make stuff up about what Odinism would look like.
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I dunno, it sounds more like something Loki would be involved with.
 
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