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Majority of Scientist agree with Islamic view of the Universe

I saw an article by a Professor Armstrong who is supposed to work for Nasa, stating that Iron could not have been formed on Earth as it requires too much energy to make Iron atoms. So when the quran says that Iron was sent down by Allah, at sura 57.25 this is evidence the quran is from God.
But every cosmologist knows that Iron atoms were formed in the first stars, and released into space when they went super nova. So all the heavy atoms like Iron were formed in stars and they gathered together in orbit around the sun and formed the earth. So when the quran says Iron was sent down by Allah, it is mistaken.

In fact it is common parlance in the quran to say that Allah sent stuff down from heaven and the phrase, Sent down, appears 42 times in the knoble quran.

At sura 36.6 the quran states that he sent down eight head of cattle in pairs.


There is also the matter of Allah sending down Manna and Quails, sura 2.57

More importantly the quran states Allah sent down a table of food.
Sura 5.112 to sura 5.115 tells of a story that God sent down a table of food for Jesus and the disciples. But this story appears nowhere in Christian doctrine, and it is assumed to be a miss interpretation by Muhammad, of the meaning of the last supper. As described in the bible at the Acts of the Apostles. Chapter 10.9 to 10.16

I think it is a fair question. It would probably be best to ask someone who is much more knowledgeable regarding the Arabic language than myself, as various English translations try and capture what is said to have taken place (regarding iron, cows, etc.) in a number of different ways. We also must realize that language usage can often be somewhat complex.

The phrase "sent down" can be found a different number of times depending on which English translation you are reading. Just follow the link to see an example of what I am talking about: Quran word count
So I would not get all wrapped up in the number "42", as you mentioned, or try to match the exact English phrase ("sent down" for example) in question with another use of the same English word or phrase found in different location.
 
Edit: My apologies! I did reply before reading the rest of the replies, so part of my comment on 39:6 is already made.

I saw an article by a Professor Armstrong who is supposed to work for Nasa
Can you link to this article please? Who is this Professor Armstrong?

At sura 36.6 the quran states that he sent down eight head of cattle in pairs.
Do you mean Surah 39:6?
He creted you from one soul, and he made its mate from it. And he sent down to you the livestock in eight pairs. he created you in your mother's belly, in creation after another creation, in triple darkness. This is Allah your lord, to him the kingdom, there is no god except him. So how then have you turned away?

Surah 36:6 mentions nothing of cows or pairs. However when I googled your exact sentence, I found it posted on many other places. Is this actually your post? (just curious).


So when the quran says that Iron was sent down by Allah, at sura 57.25 this is evidence the quran is from God.
Iron coming from "heaven" was known about to even the ancient Egyptians. They called it "metal from the heavens." How would it be evidence that the Quran is from god, if it simply repeats what was well-known long before Islam?

Furthermore, reading this ayah in context clearly shows it's talking about iron weapons so that "they [the people] may know who helps him [Muhammad in Jihad]"

We have already sent Our messengers with clear evidences and sent down with them the Scripture and the balance that the people may maintain [their affairs] in justice. And We sent down iron, wherein is great military might and benefits for the people, and so that Allah may make evident those who support Him and His messengers unseen. Indeed, Allah is Powerful and Exalted in Might.


So when the quran says Iron was sent down by Allah, it is mistaken.
I think you're reading it far too literally. Allah says in the Quran in other places that he sent food and garments and animals and the scriptures and the prophet. He didn't send them from outer space nor directly from heaven (as Muhammad was born, clothes are made etc..). You're forgetting the Quran is poetry and sometimes talks figuratively. So Allah is not literally saying he 'sent down from heaven' (janna) or from outer space (samaawat in the Quran) any of these things. Basically it's saying that Allah is responsible for the creation of all these things and you have them all because of him.

It's the same trap that Muslim's fall into because they're so desperate to ram their Quran into the scientific arena where it doesn't belong (and doesn't claim itself to belong).

There is also the matter of Allah sending down Manna and Quails, sura 2.57
Taken from the bible, yes.

More importantly the quran states Allah sent down a table of food.
Sura 5.112 to sura 5.115 tells of a story that God sent down a table of food for Jesus and the disciples. But this story appears nowhere in Christian doctrine, and it is assumed to be a miss interpretation by Muhammad, of the meaning of the last supper. As described in the bible at the Acts of the Apostles. Chapter 10.9 to 10.16
Well, no. Information was passed around orally in those days. The "news readers" of the day were the most entertaining poets and poetesses. They would travel around and give news and stories to the people with recitations. In that part of Arabia the Jews were literate, but the rest were generally not. This is why the Quran is a recitation and not much thought was given to having it written down (until later). The Quran also takes the Jews to task for charging people to recite to them from the Jewish texts.

So the Arabs at that time were familiar with Jewish texts and with folklore and mythology and other forms of information. Since he didn't have the actual books in front of him (and it is debated whether he could read or not), it appears from the contents of the Quran, that Muhammad mixed up a lot of information, so we find jewish folklore, wrong info about Christianity (derived from the beliefs of only certain sects of Christianity) and other non-canonical Christian writings were included in the Quran as if "that's what all Christian's/Jews believe" when it actually simply isn't so.

Some examples:
1. Sulameyn (Solomon) and the ants
2. Christians include Maryam (Mary the mother of Jesus) in the Trinity.
3. Cain learned how to dispose of Abel's body by observing a raven kill another then scratch a hole in the dirt to bury it.

and so on.
 
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You are right, I made a mistake there, and I am also using different translations to yours. The following is the Yusuf Ali translation for 39.6
There is NO translation that is 3 surah's "out of whack." Depending on which translation you use, it might be a couple of ayahs (verses) out, but never chapters.

Here are some common translations for the 2 verses in question; so it isn't any of these!

http://www.islamawakened.com/Quran/36/6/default.htm
http://www.islamawakened.com/Quran/39/6/default.htm

So, which translation are you using (if any)?
 
Edit: My apologies! I did reply before reading the rest of the replies, so part of my comment on 39:6 is already made.


Can you link to this article please? Who is this Professor Armstrong?


Do you mean Surah 39:6?
He creted you from one soul, and he made its mate from it. And he sent down to you the livestock in eight pairs. he created you in your mother's belly, in creation after another creation, in triple darkness. This is Allah your lord, to him the kingdom, there is no god except him. So how then have you turned away?

Surah 36:6 mentions nothing of cows or pairs. However when I googled your exact sentence, I found it posted on many other places. Is this actually your post? (just curious).



Iron coming from "heaven" was known about to even the ancient Egyptians. They called it "metal from the heavens." How would it be evidence that the Quran is from god, if it simply repeats what was well-known long before Islam?

Furthermore, reading this ayah in context clearly shows it's talking about iron weapons so that "they [the people] may know who helps him [Muhammad in Jihad]"

We have already sent Our messengers with clear evidences and sent down with them the Scripture and the balance that the people may maintain [their affairs] in justice. And We sent down iron, wherein is great military might and benefits for the people, and so that Allah may make evident those who support Him and His messengers unseen. Indeed, Allah is Powerful and Exalted in Might.



I think you're reading it far too literally. Allah says in the Quran in other places that he sent food and garments and animals and the scriptures and the prophet. He didn't send them from outer space nor directly from heaven (as Muhammad was born, clothes are made etc..). You're forgetting the Quran is poetry and sometimes talks figuratively. So Allah is not literally saying he 'sent down from heaven' (janna) or from outer space (samaawat in the Quran) any of these things. Basically it's saying that Allah is responsible for the creation of all these things and you have them all because of him.

It's the same trap that Muslim's fall into because they're so desperate to ram their Quran into the scientific arena where it doesn't belong (and doesn't claim itself to belong).


Taken from the bible, yes.


Well, no. Information was passed around orally in those days. The "news readers" of the day were the most entertaining poets and poetesses. They would travel around and give news and stories to the people with recitations. In that part of Arabia the Jews were literate, but the rest were generally not. This is why the Quran is a recitation and not much thought was given to having it written down (until later). The Quran also takes the Jews to task for charging people to recite to them from the Jewish texts.

So the Arabs at that time were familiar with Jewish texts and with folklore and mythology and other forms of information. Since he didn't have the actual books in front of him (and it is debated whether he could read or not), it appears from the contents of the Quran, that Muhammad mixed up a lot of information, so we find jewish folklore, wrong info about Christianity (derived from the beliefs of only certain sects of Christianity) and other non-canonical Christian writings were included in the Quran as if "that's what all Christian's/Jews believe" when it actually simply isn't so.

Some examples:
1. Sulameyn (Solomon) and the ants
2. Christians include Maryam (Mary the mother of Jesus) in the Trinity.
3. Cain learned how to dispose of Abel's body by observing a raven kill another then scratch a hole in the dirt to bury it.

and so on.

No matter how many times I debunk this argument, you guys just keep trying to make it fit. The Quran was not copied from the Bible. The fact that the Quran shares some similarities with the Bible, just goes to show the Bible most likely still contains some traces of the original revelation which was given to the people, (this is despite additions, omission, errors, etc.) Bart Ehrman - Gospel Mistakes (and that is just within the Canonical gospels)
Quran copied Refutation
 
Could you please try again, and this time, refute what I have said? Simply pointing to Bucaille does not refute the circumstances around the 'revelation' of the Quran, nor answer to anything I have stated.

I'll help get you started! Explain this error:

And when Allah said, "O 'Isa, son of Mary, did you say to the people, "Take me and my mother as two gods, other than Allah?" He said, "Praise be to you. It is not for me that I say what is not true for me. If I had said it, so indeed you know it. You would know what is in my soul, and I do not know what is in your soul. Surely you are the knower of the unseen.

I did not tell them except what you had commanded me. 'That serve Allah, my lord and your lord,' and I was a witness among them as long as I was with them. So when you caused me to die, you were the watcher over them, and you were the witness of all things.

If you torment them, so surely they are your servants, and if you forgive them, so surely you are the dear, the wise.


Quran 5:116-118

http://corpus.quran.com/wordbyword.jsp?chapter=5&verse=116#(5:116:1)


So regarding what I have stated in my previous post, please address the above error. Thank you.
 
I think you're reading it far too literally. Allah says in the Quran in other places that he sent food and garments and animals and the scriptures and the prophet. He didn't send them from outer space nor directly from heaven (as Muhammad was born, clothes are made etc..). You're forgetting the Quran is poetry and sometimes talks figuratively. So Allah is not literally saying he 'sent down from heaven' (janna) or from outer space (samaawat in the Quran) any of these things. Basically it's saying that Allah is responsible for the creation of all these things and you have them all because of him.

And this neatly sums up why you'll never get somebody with Mike's mindset to accept any of the errors in the Quran.
When it's right, that's proof of it's divinity.
When it's wrong, well that's just metaphor and poetry. It's not literal, you know.

Completely fruitless exercise.
 
Could you please try again, and this time, refute what I have said? Simply pointing to Bucaille does not refute the circumstances around the 'revelation' of the Quran, nor answer to anything I have stated.

I'll help get you started! Explain this error:

And when Allah said, "O 'Isa, son of Mary, did you say to the people, "Take me and my mother as two gods, other than Allah?" He said, "Praise be to you. It is not for me that I say what is not true for me. If I had said it, so indeed you know it. You would know what is in my soul, and I do not know what is in your soul. Surely you are the knower of the unseen.

I did not tell them except what you had commanded me. 'That serve Allah, my lord and your lord,' and I was a witness among them as long as I was with them. So when you caused me to die, you were the watcher over them, and you were the witness of all things.

If you torment them, so surely they are your servants, and if you forgive them, so surely you are the dear, the wise.


Quran 5:116-118

http://corpus.quran.com/wordbyword.jsp?chapter=5&verse=116#(5:116:1)


So regarding what I have stated in my previous post, please address the above error. Thank you.

You should do some research for this if you are truly interested. Just off the top of my head I would consider the fact that Catholics often reference Mary as "Mary mother of God" (thereby placing God beneath Mary) and the fact that statues of Mary can be found within many churches. Also if you consider that there are many groups of Christians who offer prayers to various Saints, I'm pretty sure that there a groups of Christians offering prayers to Mary.

Either way the Quran clearly refutes the elevation of Jesus or Mary to the place of God.
[Quran 5:116-118]

It also refutes the idea that God is a Trinity (or 3 in 1 as some Chrisitans claim) in more specific terms, for example: [Quran 4:171]

Further clarification

Are you making the claim that the Quran says that the Trinity is made up of Jesus, Mary, and God? And if so do you have some proof for this?
 
You should do some research for this if you are truly interested.
I've already done my research, thank you :)

It also refutes the idea that God is a Trinity (or 3 in 1 as some Chrisitans claim) in more specific terms, for example: [Quran 4:171]
I see you have attempted to preempt my point before I have made it. The Quran says Isa, Mary & Allah are the trinity (me and my mother as gods other than Allah - "the god"). That's three.

If you look at the link I posted, whereas I have given the translation as "other than", the word in question is often translated as "beside/s". You'd have to be being deliberately obtuse to deny that this ayah is talking about 3 [supposed] gods, no?

I am aware that Catholicism holds Mary in reverence, but she is not a part of the trinity (father, son, holy spirit). Why would the Quran contain such an obvious error?

Allah already asked Isa about it, and seems to think Christians are under the mistaken impression that Isa & Mary are part of the godship with him.


Are you making the claim that the Quran says that the Trinity is made up of Jesus, Mary, and God? And if so do you have some proof for this?
Elaborated above. What is your answer for this mistake? Surely the creator of the universe would be aware of what Christians actually believe, no?
 
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I see you have attempted to preempt my point before I have made it. The Quran says Isa, Mary & Allah are the trinity (me and my mother as gods other than Allah - "the god"). That's three.

Like I said where is your proof, for the claim that the Quran says the Trinity is made up of Jesus, Mary and God?

Also did you even bother to look at the link which I posted, that provides much more clarification on this matter? Link
 
I already provided my proof. Here it is for you once again, along with a simple maths problem:

And when Allah said, "O 'Isa, son of Mary, did you say to the people, "Take me and my mother as two gods, other than Allah?"


2 + 1 = ?


Thank you for your link, however I do not take my knowledge of Islam from Wikipedia. What exactly is the point you're trying to
obfuscate make?
 
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I already provided my proof. Here it is for you once again, along with a simple maths problem:



2 + 1 = ?


Thank you for your link, however I do not take my knowledge of Islam from Wikipedia. What exactly is the point you're trying to
obfuscate make?

That is not proof. What you are doing is trying to create something which is not there. Why do you refuse to accept the clear evidence which is provided in the link I gave you.

And what do you mean you don't accept Wikipedia? Why such animosity? A website site which is frequently viewed, updated, and well referenced. Just edit the article to make it more accurate, if you disagree with what has been provided.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_view_of_the_Trinity

How to Edit a Wikipedia Article
 
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That is not proof. What you are doing is trying to create something which is not there. Why do you refuse to accept the clear evidence which is provided in the link I gave you.

Well mikeb, you might not agree with my understanding of this ayah (not that you will admit, anyway) but at least Kathir does:

(It will further be said, `These people kept reverting back on their heels after you left them.')'' Al-Bukhari also recorded this Hadith in the explanation of this Ayah. Allah said;

﴿إِن تُعَذِّبْهُمْ فَإِنَّهُمْ عِبَادُكَ وَإِن تَغْفِرْ لَهُمْ فَإِنَّكَ أَنتَ الْعَزِيزُ الْحَكِيمُ ﴾

(If You punish them, they are Your servants, and if You forgive them, verily You, only You are the Almighty, the All-Wise.) All matters refer back to Allah, for He does what He Wills and none can question Him about what He does, while He will question them. This Ayah also shows the crime of the Christians who invented a lie against Allah and His Messenger, thus making a rival, wife and son for Allah. Allah is glorified in that He is far above what they attribute to Him. So this Ayah ﴿5:118﴾ has tremendous value and delivers unique news.
http://www.qtafsir.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=724&Itemid=60


So what is it? Are you genuinely unaware that this verse is talking about the trinity, or are you trying to pull a fast one and just hoping that I don't know better?


The Christians say Isa is the son of God, making his mother (Mary) the wife of of the father (Allah). Very simple, yes?

So far I have given you:
* My understanding of these verses
* A word for word translation from Arabic (Muslim source)
* Tafsir from Kathir supporting my interpretation (Muslim source)
* A simple maths problem.

You have given:
* A link to a Wikipedia article that you are not even willing to type from your refutation, simply trying to fob me off onto a link.

Who really knows their stuff here, my friend?
 
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Well mikeb, you might not agree with my understanding of this ayah (not that you will admit, anyway) but at least Kathir does:

http://www.qtafsir.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=724&Itemid=60


So what is it? Are you genuinely unaware that this verse is talking about the trinity, or are you trying to pull a fast one and just hoping that I don't know better?


The Christians say Isa is the son of God, making his mother (Mary) the wife of of the father (Allah). Very simple, yes?

So far I have given you:
* My understanding of these verses
* A word for word translation from Arabic (Muslim source)
* Tafsir from Kathir supporting my interpretation (Muslim source)
* A simple maths problem.

You have given:
* A link to a Wikipedia article that you are not even willing to type from your refutation, simply trying to fob me off onto a link.

Who really knows their stuff here, my friend?

Everything you need is right there, which portion of the posted link are you claiming to be incorrect?
Post#412

Just let me know, maybe I will go ahead and update the page on your behalf. And if you really know your stuff (as you claim) then why not share your knowledge with others?
 
Round and round the merry go round wheeeeee xD

You know mike, there's nothing wrong with saying "I don't know" or "I don't have enough knowledge to answer this."

Repeatedly pointing me to a Wikipedia article, all the while not even summarizing your 'rebuttal' at all, is rather transparent.
 
Round and round the merry go round wheeeeee xD

You know mike, there's nothing wrong with saying "I don't know" or "I don't have enough knowledge to answer this."

Repeatedly pointing me to a Wikipedia article, all the while not even summarizing your 'rebuttal' at all, is rather transparent.

There is nothing to summarize the entire refutation of what you are claiming, references, detailed yet brief explination, and even a discussion (referencing your exact argument) have already taken place. I guess if you want to continue on with your head in the sand, go on then.

I'm sure most people who are truly interested in knowing the answer (and also tired of being held in suspense) have already clicked on the link at this point.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_view_of_the_Trinity
wheeeeee xD
 
I'm sure most people who are truly interested in knowing the answer (and also tired of being held in suspense) have already clicked on the link at this point.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_view_of_the_Trinity

OK I looked at your link and I think you haven't read it oopsie!

This Edward Hulmes guy says it may not be referring to a misunderstanding of the trinity at all; however this is plainly incorrect. As the ayah clearly says "take my mother and me as gods"; so yes, it is a misunderstanding and this guy (who is he, anyway?) is wrong.

Thank you for reminding me however, of an ayah that I had forgotten to mention, which gives further credence to the claim by myself (and Kathir and the verse itself) that this verse is talking about a misunderstood Christian trinity!

Infidels indeed are those who said, "Surely Allah is the Christ, son of Mary." And the Christ said, "O children of Israel, serve Allah, my lord and your lord." Surely whoever partners with Allah, so indeed Allah forbids him the garden. And his abode is the fire, and the unjust will have no helpers [who give them victory]. Infidels indeed are those who said "Surely Alalh is the third of three." And there is no god except one god, and if they do not refrain from what they are saying, a painful torment will touch those who became infidels among them. Will they not repent to Allah and ask for his forgiveness? And Allah is forgiving, merciful.

The Christ, son of Mary, is nothing except a messenger; indeed other messengers have gone before him, and his mother is a siddiqah*. They were eating the food. Look at how we show the verses to them, then look at how they turn away! Say, "Will you serve rather than Allah, that do not have a harm nor a profit for you?" And Allah is the hearer, the knower. Say, "O people of the book, do not exaggerate in your religion without the truth and do not follow the desire of a nation who indeed has gone astray before. And they have caused many to go astray and have themselves gone astray from the right way."


* Person of integrity (Aramaic)

Quran 5:72-77

http://corpus.quran.com/wordbyword.jsp?chapter=5&verse=73


So this passage is admonishing Christians for saying Jesus is God along with Allah and another. Notice it says they say "Allah is the third of three" so Isa (Jesus) is the third. The father first, the mother second and Isa (Jesus) third (as the parents are older and come 'before' the child).


So like in the previous quoted verse, "Did you say to people take me and my mother as gods other than Allah" gels with this one; Allah is the first (father), Mary is the second (mother) and Isa is the third (son).

Kathir disagrees slightly with me on this, pegging Allah as the third member and Mary & Isa as the 1st & 2nd, in any case, he agrees with my assessment this is again an admonition against the Christians who take Mary and Isa (Jesus) as Gods besides him (making a trinity).

﴿لَّقَدْ كَفَرَ الَّذِينَ قَالُواْ إِنَّ اللَّهَ ثَـلِثُ ثَلَـثَةٍ﴾
(Surely, they have disbelieved who say: "Allah is the third of three.") Mujahid and several others said that this Ayah was revealed about the Christians in particular. As-Suddi and others said that this Ayah was revealed about taking `Isa and his mother as gods besides Allah, thus making Allah the third in a trinity. As-Suddi said, "This is similar to Allah's statement towards the end of the Surah,
﴿وَإِذْ قَالَ اللَّهُ يعِيسَى ابْنَ مَرْيَمَ أَءَنتَ قُلتَ لِلنَّاسِ اتَّخِذُونِى وَأُمِّىَ إِلَـهَيْنِ مِن دُونِ اللَّهِ قَالَ سُبْحَـنَكَ﴾
(And (remember) when Allah will say: "O `Isa, son of Maryam! Did you say unto men: `Worship me and my mother as two gods besides Allah' He will say, "Glory be to You!")﴿5:116﴾. Allah replied,
﴿وَمَا مِنْ إِلَـهٍ إِلاَّ إِلَـهٌ وَحِدٌ﴾
(But there is no god but One God.) meaning there are not many worthy of worship but there is only One God without partners, and He is the Lord of all creation and all that exists. Allah said next, while threatening and admonishing them,
﴿وَإِن لَّمْ يَنتَهُواْ عَمَّا يَقُولُونَ﴾
(And if they cease not from what they say, ) their lies and false claims,
http://www.qtafsir.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=753&Itemid=60
 

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