[Continuation] Luton Airport Car Park Fire part II

[GlennB]

This guy here captured the moment a car fell through the floor bursting into a huge fireball. Stop being in denial.

A couple of floor sections collapsed, yes, and a burning car fell through.

I posted a screen cap of it, showing the floor sections in a \ / formation, but your only reaction was to demand whether it was actually Luton.

Want to see it again?

p.s. X/Twitter is a rotten source for cites. I tried viewing one and X launched into a sign-up routine.

 

[Vixen]

A couple of floor sections collapsed, yes, and a burning car fell through.

I posted a screen cap of it, showing the floor sections in a \ / formation, but your only reaction was to demand whether it was actually Luton.

Want to see it again?

p.s. X/Twitter is a rotten source for cites. I tried viewing one and X launched into a sign-up routine.

This one is a good source because all of the news agencies contacted the guy and asked to use his video. See all of the responses to it.

Are you talking about this picture here:

moment of explsn 1 by Username Vixen, on Flickr

 

[lobosrul5]

It is not mutually exclusive for him to be under suspicion of criminal damage and at the same time the fire 'was caused by a faulty vehicle'. This is what you have been told officially.

Imagine if the fault was Jaguar Land Rover's all along and they tried to pin it on this poor guy whose only 'crime' was to jump out of THEIR defective name-protected vehicle.

So... it wasn't a do-it-yourself weekend project in his garage then?

 

[GlennB]

This one is a good source because all of the news agencies contacted the guy and asked to use his video. See all of the responses to it.

Are you talking about this picture here:

That's a totally crap version, as the light from the flames overwhelms the camera. Try this:

[imgw=500]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=48359&stc=1&d=1699573601 [/imgw]

Another is available, a moment later. They were posted some days ago but it seems you missed them.

 

[Vixen]

That's a totally crap version, as the light from the flames overwhelms the camera. Try this:

[imgw=500]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=48359&stc=1&d=1699573601 [/imgw]

Another is available, a moment later. They were posted some days ago but it seems you missed them.

I did see them. What came first, the floor giving way or the burning vehicle undermining its structure?

If you are unable to see that guy's tweet (@robsonOReardon) then you can view it here about 4/5ths of the way down the page.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12618033/started-London-Luton-car-park-fire-moment.html

 

[Vixen]

So... it wasn't a do-it-yourself weekend project in his garage then?

It's not mutually exclusive.

 

[junkshop]

News update: LBC Radio have been chatting to members of the fire brigade union, who claim the building should have been able to withstand a fire for at least 15 minutes..

...Note the time: 23:15 BST - less than two hours after a major incident was declared. (Which was 21:38.)...

So the building was, as you have evidenced, able to withstand the fire for considerably longer than 15 minutes.

What point were you trying to make?


Oh, and lest we forget, the Bedfordshire Fire & Rescue Service confirmed that the fire started in a diesel vehicle four weeks ago - on the self-same day you started this ridiculous thread.

 

[GlennB]

I did see them. What came first, the floor giving way or the burning vehicle undermining its structure?

Meaningless pseudo-science. Maybe even worse than that. Just drivel.

Why did you write "the burning vehicle"? That's clearly the ground floor and vehicle #0 was a few floors above. Directly above was also a raging inferno with hundreds of cars ablaze.

 

[Foster Zygote]

This guy here captured the moment a car fell through the floor bursting into a huge fireball. Stop being in denial.


https://x.com/RobsonOReardon/status/1711868144438927380?s=20


"Robson O'Reardon��
@RobsonOReardon
Looks like the whole car park has just fallen down through the flames!

#LutonAirport"

Note the time: 23:15 BST - less than two hours after a major incident was declared. (Which was 21:38.)

Liverpool ECHO car park, King's Dock did not actually collapse like this, although floors sunk in the middle.

Horse. ****.

There's no way in Hell you can claim to be able to see an individual car falling through a hole it's melted through the floor in that video, shot from, by the looks of it, about ⅓ to ½ a kilometer away, and with the whole structure partially obscured by heavy smoke, because the whole thing is already engulfed in an out of control fire. The video looks just like a partial collapse of the structure caused by the weakening of steel components due to the high heat of hundreds of burning cars. That video in no way supports your profoundly ignorant assertion that a Li-ion battery melted through the concrete and steel floor of the garage.

 

[Dabop]

I would be VERY surprised if any country allows you to look up a name and address just from a number plate- with road ragers and stalkers all too common, this would be stupidity of the highest order (to put it mildly)
Just imagine the public outcry the first time a road rager looks up the plates of the car they are road raging on, then gets the persons name and address from the number plates, and proceeds to go to their house and assault them/smash their windows/set fire to their house (with a lithium battery perhaps lol)/whatever...



Here in Australia, all you can see as a member of the 'general public is the make and model, and if it is registered or not, only the owner can see all the other details....

 

[Foster Zygote]

I did see them. What came first, the floor giving way or the burning vehicle undermining its structure?

If you are unable to see that guy's tweet (@robsonOReardon) then you can view it here about 4/5ths of the way down the page.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12618033/started-London-Luton-car-park-fire-moment.html

Vixen, do you really expect anyone to believe - no, do you really believe that a Li-ion battery in a car could melt through the floor of the garage so fast that you wouldn't see any molten concrete or steel dripping through before it could all come through? Do you think that a Li-ion battery fire is so intense that it would "melt" through the concrete floor in an instant, and that a fire that staggeringly hot would still leave a recognizable car to fall through?

The Daily Mail is written by and for idiots, so their headline is predictably sensationalized. "Moment Range Rover explodes" (they didn't even get the make right) sounds way more dramatic than "Moment span collapses due to massive, prolonged fire involving numerous cars".

And why do you keep ignoring the NHTSA study showing that Li-ion vehicle fires are, at worst, no more destructive than in gasoline or diesel vehicles? Is NHTSA part of the sinister plot? Did they fake that study six years ago at the behest of a foreign auto manufacturer?

 

[GlennB]

^^^ (Dabop.. another post butted in )

Yeah, though Vixen tried to tell us that Finnish/Swedish/German laws were tighter than the UK, which actually doesn't reveal the stuff you refer to. And, yep, you give good reasons, such as road rage.

But she screwed it up somehow. Quoting old laws, or whatever.

 

[Foster Zygote]

This one is a good source because all of the news agencies contacted the guy and asked to use his video. See all of the responses to it.

Are you talking about this picture here:

[qimg]https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/53321685479_93eb9bfc71.jpg[/qimg]moment of explsn 1 by Username Vixen, on Flickr

That's not a "moment of explosion", it's a moment of collapse.

 

[phiwum]

This guy here captured the moment a car fell through the floor bursting into a huge fireball. Stop being in denial.


https://x.com/RobsonOReardon/status/1711868144438927380?s=20


"Robson O'Reardon��
@RobsonOReardon
Looks like the whole car park has just fallen down through the flames!

#LutonAirport"

Note the time: 23:15 BST - less than two hours after a major incident was declared. (Which was 21:38.)

Liverpool ECHO car park, King's Dock did not actually collapse like this, although floors sunk in the middle.

Ah, this twitter guy has 8,000 or so followers. So, we know that videos posted by someone with 8,000 followers are trustworthy, while those with only 232 followers are unreliable.

How many followers are enough to make video tweets reliable exactly? Or is the blue check mark the mark of integrity?

 

[phiwum]

Those ones obviously reached the fuel tank, hence the heavy hydrocarbons. The picture in the CCTV does not show this type of smoke as of that stage.

Did you notice the photo of the diesel truck on fire? It does not have particularly dark smoke. Nor is it a hybrid. Perhaps sometimes, depending on conditions and where the camera is, the smoke from a diesel car fire appears less black than other times.

 

[novaphile]

I don't know why but you have piqued my curiosity. Is it because of the increased number of start ups? (But then lots of newish cars have auto stop/start so perhaps not.)

Very close, Thermal picked it.

My vehicle is a plug-in hybrid, which means that the engine runs much less often than a vehicle which always runs the engine (normal ICE or Toyota style hybrids). This means that there is much more opportunity for the oil to drain off the bearings over time, leading to increased wear on start-up.

Frankly I'm amazed that Mitsubishi thought of that, but I see a lot of evidence that the car was designed by top-flight engineers.

 

[phiwum]

It is not mutually exclusive for him to be under suspicion of criminal damage and at the same time the fire 'was caused by a faulty vehicle'. This is what you have been told officially.

Imagine if the fault was Jaguar Land Rover's all along and they tried to pin it on this poor guy whose only 'crime' was to jump out of THEIR defective name-protected vehicle.

Right, it's not mutually exclusive.

But let's go with the working hypothesis that the prime minister (or maybe someone even higher up) wants to deflect blame from Land Rover. That's why, after all, you said the arrest was made, to distract attention away from the manufacturer.

Why would you publicly claim that the fire was a result of vehicle fault on the same day? Why not just remain silent on that point? If you're trying to avoid attention on the manufacturer, mentioning vehicle fault is a poor strategy.

Are these people just stupid? They announced the arrest like the higher-ups ordered, but they forgot to strike mention of vehicle fault from the press conference notes?

Your theory makes little sense.

 

[phiwum]

From this link here, you can see that the building was completely ablaze on all levels within one and a half hours. In the Liverpool ECHO car park fire, after two hours it had only spread to the next floor up.

https://x.com/RobsonOReardon/status/1711868144438927380?s=20

Different buildings, different situations, fires can behave differently. Were I a fire expert, perhaps I could see something suspicious in these different rates of spread or perhaps not. But like you, I don't know much about fires. Unlike you, I don't expect every parking garage fire started by an ICE car to spread at exactly the same rate.

 

[Foster Zygote]

Did you notice the photo of the diesel truck on fire? It does not have particularly dark smoke. Nor is it a hybrid. Perhaps sometimes, depending on conditions and where the camera is, the smoke from a diesel car fire appears less black than other times.

Seems to me it would seem darker against the sky, than in a concrete garage with artificial lightning.

 

[phiwum]

It's not mutually exclusive.

If he turned the car into a hybrid, then he's responsible for the fire if, as you claim, it began with the battery.

Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk

 

[P.J. Denyer]

Your theory makes little sense.

There's a novelty.

 

[Foster Zygote]

Are these people just stupid?

Every good conspiracy theory needs bad guys who are simultaneously sinister geniuses, but moronic enough for the theorists to be able to show their superiority by unraveling their gordian plots.

 

[phiwum]

Seems to me it would seem darker against the sky, than in a concrete garage with artificial lightning.

Yes, but you don't get artificial lightning in a parking garage unless there's a lithium battery present.

 

[SpitfireIX]

I would be VERY surprised if any country allows you to look up a name and address just from a number plate- with road ragers and stalkers all too common, this would be stupidity of the highest order (to put it mildly)
Just imagine the public outcry the first time a road rager looks up the plates of the car they are road raging on, then gets the persons name and address from the number plates, and proceeds to go to their house and assault them/smash their windows/set fire to their house (with a lithium battery perhaps lol)/whatever...

In America, releasing personal information from vehicle registrations and drivers licenses has been illegal since 1984, after actress Rebecca Schaeffer^WP was murdered by a stalker who obtained her address from the California Department of Motor Vehicles.

 

[catsmate]

The fire in the photograph appears to be confined to the front left of the car and towards the lower part. There is no smoke coming from the engine at the front or the fuel tank at the rear. The flames are orange and red with the grey smoke that is a classic of a lithium-ion fire. The driver was unable to extinguish it with a couple of fire extinguishers which would normally do the job, or failing that by the fire brigade who arrived very promptly - 'within eight minutes'.

So what happened here? I likely scenario IMV having looked at all of the possible facts available so far is that a thermal runaway started in a lithium-ion battery situated towards the front of the vehicle. This is uncontainable by ordinary means as it self-oxygenates, so the driver abandoned his attempts. A burning lithium-ion battery is not only intensely hot (up to 2,000°) - it is the size of a suitcase and is packed with cells - but it gives of projectiles of intense heat. A shrapnel from this lithium battery fire penetrated the diesel fuel tank, causing the hot vapours there, which are given off by the diesel at circa 100 °C, to ignite being within 10% of the flashpoint, causing a massive fireball and it is this fireball of intense heat together with the lithium-ion battery fire that caused rapid spread to other vehicles and causing the concrete and steel rebars to buckle, somehow causing the vehicles in the next roof top level to ignite, being completely open-air and fanned by windy weather. The evidence for this are witnesses describing flame being 'thrown'.

Lithium-ion fires throw flames and become so hot, it explains why the floor beneath Vehicle Zero collapsed from the heat intensity. In addition, lithium-ion battery fires give off extremely noxious fumes and this explains why five personnel were immediately stricken by inhalation difficulties and the entire fire brigade having to withdraw from the building all together. If you recall, at Liverpool they were able to fight the fire from the stairwells for nigh on two hours before giving up. At Luton a major incident was declared just half an hour after their arrival.

The Luton Airport ard park fire began in a 2013 diesel Range Rover. No lithium batteries needed.

 

[catsmate]

They could see the flames from the top of the steps up to the plane. This tells me they were getting off, down mobile steps. Her original story points out that they'd been sitting on the plane for 2 hours before that, which puts her seeing the fire and hearing collapse at somewhere around 11pm.

Your post is either colossally stupid or intended to deceive. Or a mix of both, I suppose.

link to story

But it superficially supports Vixen's conspiracy theory, and that's what's important.

Many a jester has been a prophet.

Actually, no.

 

[catsmate]

Lest we forget the point being made, YOU claimed that 'for security reasons' and GDPR - DPA - it was not possible to obtain owner details of UK DVLA-registered cars. I questioned your assumptions it was to do with security and DPA because northern Europe (we seem to copy German law here) is far far stricter than the UK when it comes to privacy. That was the point being made. How come, if the UK is incredibly lax about people's privacy (well, for plebs anyway) as compared to other European countries.

Except, as I showed, you're lying about the information availablein Finland.

Intensity of heat.

Bollocks. The energy content of diesel fuel is vastly greater than storage batteries.

Yes, and what normally triggers diesel to ignite? Pressure.

Another of your lies

 

[catsmate]

Cheers. Interesting!

Glad to help. Data Protection within the EU is something I've had to deal with rather a lot.

What is this service here then?

https://02rekkari.fi/?gad=1&gclid=C...BAlFzG39S4maICgDtPMBB2tKP3DWnEHoaAgwIEALw_wcB

Oh look, an attempt at misdirection.
I supplied a list, from the Traficom website, of the information actually available. Rather than the lies you claimed.

Last I studied the DPA and ICO requirements, my understanding is that whilst keeping personal records of someone has to be done with their consent, there is no breach of the privacy laws by simply keeping a list of names and addresses.

Oh look, frantic back-peddling....

Here, you can ring up the population centre and request anyone's address.

Oh look,more obfuscation.

The UK DVLA's inability to give you information of the owner from the number plate is probably more to do with 'cant be bothered' than any concern about GDPR or 'security'.

Bollocks. It seems that the basics of Data Protection and privacy are beyond you.

 

[Mojo]

Nope. According to this lady from Wexford, the floor collapse happened almost immediately.

Screenshot 2023-11-09 172057 by Username Vixen, on Flickr

It is a screen shot as the link seems a bit dodgy.

They could see the flames from the top of the steps up to the plane. This tells me they were getting off, down mobile steps. Her original story points out that they'd been sitting on the plane for 2 hours before that, which puts her seeing the fire and hearing collapse at somewhere around 11pm.

Your post is either colossally stupid or intended to deceive. Or a mix of both, I suppose.

link to story

Why do you think Vixen posted a screenshot instead of a link?

 

[Carrot Flower King]

The UK DVLA's inability to give you information of the owner from the number plate is probably more to do with 'cant be bothered' than any concern about GDPR or 'security'.

Just to re-iterate what the likes of Catsmate have already said: this is utter nonsense, totally not true and in no way a reflection of how the UK public sector deals with personal information (veteran of many years of public sector IG training here, who lives with someone who's done even more of it, both of whom have used their knowledge to hit lax organisations over the head and change their practice).

 

[erwinl]

Glad to help. Data Protection within the EU is something I've had to deal with rather a lot.


Oh look, an attempt at misdirection.
I supplied a list, from the Traficom website, of the information actually available. Rather than the lies you claimed.


Oh look, frantic back-peddling....


Oh look,more obfuscation.


Bollocks. It seems that the basics of Data Protection and privacy are beyond you.

To be fair to Vixen (now there's a set of words, that I never expected to utter in my life!).

It does seem that in Finland you can, for a minor fee, get all the private details of car ownership, based on the number plate.

Truly bizarre, and contra to everything that is EU privacy laws. Unless that 02Rekkari is a scam. That is possible, of course.

Having said that.
Finland having such a bizarre attitude to privacy, has nothing to do with with how the law in the UK works (or my country for that matter). Especially for someone, who pretends to have been born in the UK and thus should know better.

 

[Roger Ramjets]

Do you think that a Li-ion battery fire is so intense that it would "melt" through the concrete floor in an instant

Of course. This is all over the news. It's common knowledge that li-ion batteries are bombs waiting to go off, and when they do the heat is so intense it's impossible to put out. It stands to reason that such intense heat would melt through anything instantly - like a nuclear reactor melting down - only worse because li-ion batteries are a newer technology.

Which is what it's all about. We have been driving fossil fuel powered vehicles for a hundred years, and they have been burning up and exploding without warning for a hundred years. But that's normal so nobody talks about it (lots of car fires on YouTube, but they are almost all before electric vehicles started hitting the news - I wonder why?).

EVs are a different story. There are many reasons to fear them:-

- They are a new and different technology.

- Smug EV owners say they are nicer to drive and cheaper to run.

- The government wants you to buy one - a red flag if ever there was one.

- They are threatening the future of gas cars.

We thought it was bad when they banned incandescent light bulbs and forced us to buy LEDs. Remember what an assault on our freedoms that was? Well this is far worse. Just like we demanded the right to waste 95% of the electricity used by our light bulbs while having to replace them continuously, so we demand the right to stink up the air and fry the planet with our fossil fueled vehicles.

LED bulbs weren't all bad though - turns out they last a lot longer and don't melt the fittings. And now I can leave the light on all night without feeling guilty.

But there is nothing good about an EV.

- Nicer to drive? Meh. I love the way my gas car coughs and splutters when warming up, the vibration and noise, and the aroma of its fumes.

- When the battery in an EV gets low you can't just drive to a gas station and fill up in 5 minutes (where you get to enjoy even more fumes). No, you have to take it home and charge it for hours, or try to find a fast charging space somewhere nearby that doesn't have a gas car parked in it.

- EVs cost a lot more than gas cars - purchase price that is. Total cost of ownership? Who cares, nobody even calculates that.

- EVs have limited range, whereas gas cars don't. Nobody ever ran out of petrol because they forgot to put enough in. Gas cars don't use more fuel when towing a caravan or driving uphill either.

- And what if I want to take a road trip to Nova Scotia, huh? I regularly drive non-stop for 12 hours without a break, then turn around and drive straight back home again. So an EV isn't any good for me, and therefore is no good for anyone.

- Furthermore I live in an apartment and have no choice but to park my car on the street, where there are no charging stations. This is discrimination!

So who cares if they are the latest technology. EVs are rolling bombs that burn up for no reason and you can't put them out! When the battery explodes it shoots shrapnel though everything including anyone inside! You'll never get me in one!

 

[Andy_Ross]

It is not mutually exclusive for him to be under suspicion of criminal damage and at the same time the fire 'was caused by a faulty vehicle'. This is what you have been told officially.

Imagine if the fault was Jaguar Land Rover's all along and they tried to pin it on this poor guy whose only 'crime' was to jump out of THEIR defective name-protected vehicle.

It's already been confirmed that it was a diesel car

 

[Andy_Ross]

The UK DVLA's inability to give you information of the owner from the number plate is probably more to do with 'cant be bothered' than any concern about GDPR or 'security'.

What is your evidence for this?

 

[Andy_Ross]

It's not mutually exclusive.

It was a diesel car. it has been confirmed by the fire service.

 

[malbui]

I would be VERY surprised if any country allows you to look up a name and address just from a number plate- with road ragers and stalkers all too common, this would be stupidity of the highest order (to put it mildly)
Just imagine the public outcry the first time a road rager looks up the plates of the car they are road raging on, then gets the persons name and address from the number plates, and proceeds to go to their house and assault them/smash their windows/set fire to their house (with a lithium battery perhaps lol)/whatever...



Here in Australia, all you can see as a member of the 'general public is the make and model, and if it is registered or not, only the owner can see all the other details....

I believe there was a publicly consultable car registration directory in Belgium the best part of 100 years ago because it was a plot point in an early Tintin story. But it doesn’t exist now.

On the EV conversion front, I learned to drive in a Peugeot 205 back in the day and we’ve recently uncovered that very car in the back of a barn up in the mountains. We’re talking about a summer conversion project but we - including an uncle who used to run a garage and an uncle and a cousin who run a sizeable electricians business - are doing a lot of reading before taking a decision. It’s not exactly a weekend job using household tools.

 

[Foster Zygote]

It’s not exactly a weekend job using household tools.

And you'll almost certainly have to do some welding, which will require a laboratory.

 

[JesseCuster]

Impression given being in the same sentence as their standing at the top of the plane steps.

I read the article and then read it again, slowly and carefully.

There's nothing there to indicate or imply that the witness said the car park "collapsed almost immediately". Other people on this forum have read the article and don't see how the witness says the car park collapsed immediately.

You do seem to have an issue with reading and understanding basic English.

I say this because after the silly furore over who rescued who, who was the winchman, who was the pilot, what were the helicopters, etc. involved in the Estonia sinking, you made the rather silly claim that the reason you got confused as to who did what, is because the JAIC deliberately obfuscated the language to prevent people from being able to understand what happened when people were being rescued by helicopter crews.

But several others of us read the relevant sections of the JAIC and found it quite clear as to what it was saying.

The rest of us are capable of reading plain English and understanding what it means, but you seem to have difficulty getting the simple meaning that the rest of us are getting.

 

[Steve]

I read the article and then read it again, slowly and carefully.

There's nothing there to indicate or imply that the witness said the car park "collapsed almost immediately". Other people on this forum have read the article and don't see how the witness says the car park collapsed immediately.

You do seem to have an issue with reading and understanding basic English.

I say this because after the silly furore over who rescued who, who was the winchman, who was the pilot, what were the helicopters, etc. involved in the Estonia sinking, you made the rather silly claim that the reason you got confused as to who did what, is because the JAIC deliberately obfuscated the language to prevent people from being able to understand what happened when people were being rescued by helicopter crews.

But several others of us read the relevant sections of the JAIC and found it quite clear as to what it was saying.

The rest of us are capable of reading plain English and understanding what it means, but you seem to have difficulty getting the simple meaning that the rest of us are getting.

Vixen has a remarkable ability to interpret the written word, any written words, to say exactly what she wants it to say. Reality is just a passing fantasy with this one.

 

[GlennB]

Vixen has a remarkable ability to interpret the written word, any written words, to say exactly what she wants it to say. Reality is just a passing fantasy with this one.

That's a charitable view. What I see is her routinely taking excerpts out of context to favour her argument. When seen in full, articles etc aren't saying what she claims they're saying. The Irish family on the plane steps at Luton is a prime example.