[Continuation] Luton Airport Car Park Fire part II

[JayUtah]

This was misleading as it was in quotation marks as a verbatim comment.

Yes, your continued reliance on unreliable sources that you refuse to vet is why I maintain that armchair detectives are worse than useless.

But lets us not miss the point that the car park floor collapsed very quickly, given how new the building was, and built to withstand the weight of modern cars. The heat must have been extraordinarily intense, of an all together higher magnitude than the Liverpool one.

No, you don't get to assume you know what you're talking about.

 

[JayUtah]

Intensity of heat.

"Intensity of heat" is a topic you assured us would resolve in your favor if we "did the maths." I'm still waiting for you to do the heat transfer computations to prove your point. Until you do, all we have is "Because Vixen says so," which is an iron-clad guarantee of error.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

I took the lady's words at face value

.... and galloped off in all directions without bothering to absorb the context, which was that these passengers were witnessing this while being taken off their grounded flight after spending a couple of hours on the tarmac.

 

[Andy_Ross]

Intensity of heat.

But it was a diesel car, it has been confirmed by the fire service.

 

[Vixen]

They did not pronounce the fire uncontrollable.

They declared a major incident. Declaring a major incident is not fire brigade speak for "We give up. Run away".

On the contrary, it called for help from almost every fire team in the surrounding counties plus London Fire Brigade. Over a hundred firemen tackling the blaze all night long.

 

[zooterkin]

Intensity of heat.

Again, parading your ignorance.

 

[zooterkin]

On the contrary, it called for help from almost every fire team in the surrounding counties plus London Fire Brigade. Over a hundred firemen tackling the blaze all night long.

Which is the opposite of "We give up. Run Away", isn't it?

 

[Vixen]

"Intensity of heat" is a topic you assured us would resolve in your favor if we "did the maths." I'm still waiting for you to do the heat transfer computations to prove your point. Until you do, all we have is "Because Vixen says so," which is an iron-clad guarantee of error.

A piece of red hot shrapnel from a burning self-oxygenating lithium-ion battery pierces the plastic diesel fuel tank. Vapours ignite within the tank resulting in a fireball. The rest is history.

 

[JesseCuster]

Right. My comment was within a very specific context, which was to do with obtaining the same deformations in a piece of steel <snip>

So you didn't claim that welding does not involve melting steel or that welding machines can't melt steel?

Because you also said the following:

I don't accept that using a welding kit in your living room would be able to heat steel up to 700°.

So how does a welding kit work if it can't even raise the temperature of steel to within several hundred degrees of its melting point?

 

[JayUtah]

A piece of red hot shrapnel from a burning self-oxygenating lithium-ion battery pierces the plastic diesel fuel tank. Vapours ignite within the tank resulting in a fireball. The rest is history.

No, that's not "intensity of heat," nor have you provided the mathematical analysis you claim will prove your point. We have discussed many topics here including how fires spread among combustibles, how the architecture of buildings contribute to the stoichiometrics of combustion, and what heat-transfer factors affect Class B combustible fuel loads.

You have expressed nothing but ignorance and disdain for any of those topics. Explain now, please, why you should be taken at all seriously.

 

[zooterkin]

A piece of red hot shrapnel from a burning self-oxygenating lithium-ion battery pierces the plastic diesel fuel tank. Vapours ignite within the tank resulting in a fireball. The rest is history.

We're talking about the Luton car park fire, not your fantasies.

You do know that the course of a fire is not determined by what started it, but rather by the conditions and available fuel in the area?

 

[Jack by the hedge]

But let us not miss the point that the car park floor collapsed very quickly, given how new the building was, and built to withstand the weight of modern cars. The heat must have been extraordinarily intense, of an all together higher magnitude than the Liverpool one.

You're making up a little story again.

You don't know how long the fire rating requirement was, and you don't know if the new car park's fire resistance was designed down to the absolute minimum required to meet the spec at the least cost.

You're extrapolating from guesses.

 

[Thermal]

A piece of red hot shrapnel from a burning self-oxygenating lithium-ion battery pierces the plastic diesel fuel tank. Vapours ignite within the tank resulting in a fireball. The rest is history This post is imaginary.

FTFY.

 

[Andy_Ross]

A piece of red hot shrapnel from a burning self-oxygenating lithium-ion battery pierces the plastic diesel fuel tank. Vapours ignite within the tank resulting in a fireball. The rest is history.

It was a diesel car. It has been confirmed by the fire service.

Or should we doubt their word?

If you think they are telling a lie about that, how do you know they are telling the truth about being there in 8 minutes?

 

[JesseCuster]

Nope. According to this lady from Wexford, the floor collapse happened almost immediately.

[qimg]https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/53319663957_99d71cb83e_z.jpg[/qimg]Screenshot 2023-11-09 172057 by Username Vixen, on Flickr.

Could you please highlight or quote the bit that says that the floor collapse "happened almost immediately"? I can't find it in that screengrab anywhere.

 

[JayUtah]

Could you please highlight or quote the bit that says that the floor collapse "happened almost immediately"? I can't find it in that screengrab anywhere.

Vixen confirmed that she just made it up. But it's no big deal, ya know.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

A piece of red hot shrapnel from a burning self-oxygenating lithium-ion battery pierces the plastic diesel fuel tank. Vapours ignite within the tank resulting in a fireball. The rest is history.

I'm not familiar with Range Rover layout but it's not typical for a fuel tank to dangle below a car's cabin floor level. They tend to be raised up above the floor pan level, just behind the cabin. And you already told us I think that the hybrid battery is placed at the front, on the passenger side, and presumably inside the engine compartment since this hybrid version is built from what is otherwise a normal Range Rover body.

So, would that imaginary shrapnel not have to pierce the steel floor pan, soundproofing wadding and carpet, pass through the cabin at low level, pierce the carpet, padding and steel floor pan again and then enter the diesel tank?

If that's what lithium car fires are like can you show us videos of these terrifying fragmentation devices in action? If a burning EV typically fires burning projectiles which can penetrate multiple layers of steel, I think we need to know.

 

[lobosrul5]

Lithium-ion battery burn test above. No signs of red-hot shrapnel... the PM's wife must've gotten to them.

Batteries burring are actually less explosive than Petrol or Diesel. why? Because I said so Vixen. My claims are equal to yours... I mean I'm also correct but whatever.

 

[Vixen]

Could you please highlight or quote the bit that says that the floor collapse "happened almost immediately"? I can't find it in that screengrab anywhere.

Impression given being in the same sentence as their standing at the top of the plane steps.

 

[P.J. Denyer]

Many a jester has been a prophet.

Most are just clowns.

 

[GlennB]

Impression given being in the same sentence as their standing at the top of the plane steps.

Could you link to your original source, please.

 

[Vixen]

I'm not familiar with Range Rover layout but it's not typical for a fuel tank to dangle below a car's cabin floor level. They tend to be raised up above the floor pan level, just behind the cabin. And you already told us I think that the hybrid battery is placed at the front, on the passenger side, and presumably inside the engine compartment since this hybrid version is built from what is otherwise a normal Range Rover body.

So, would that imaginary shrapnel not have to pierce the steel floor pan, soundproofing wadding and carpet, pass through the cabin at low level, pierce the carpet, padding and steel floor pan again and then enter the diesel tank?

If that's what lithium car fires are like can you show us videos of these terrifying fragmentation devices in action? If a burning EV typically fires burning projectiles which can penetrate multiple layers of steel, I think we need to know.

Cut straight to 6:57 to see how a couple of power tool lithium-ion batteries flame throw shrapnel at high velocity. Then imagine a lithium car battery several times more powerful than that and you get an idea of how it got so noxious, intensely hot and extensively spreading so quickly.




https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t1j9TUV5coc&t=495s

 

[Disbelief]

I'm not familiar with Range Rover layout but it's not typical for a fuel tank to dangle below a car's cabin floor level. They tend to be raised up above the floor pan level, just behind the cabin. And you already told us I think that the hybrid battery is placed at the front, on the passenger side, and presumably inside the engine compartment since this hybrid version is built from what is otherwise a normal Range Rover body.

So, would that imaginary shrapnel not have to pierce the steel floor pan, soundproofing wadding and carpet, pass through the cabin at low level, pierce the carpet, padding and steel floor pan again and then enter the diesel tank?

If that's what lithium car fires are like can you show us videos of these terrifying fragmentation devices in action? If a burning EV typically fires burning projectiles which can penetrate multiple layers of steel, I think we need to know.

And the documentation that I found says/shows that the battery is not in the engine compartment, but under the seats. If she is claiming it is a home conversion job, she would have to show what was removed from the engine compartment to make room for this battery.

 

[JayUtah]

I'm not familiar with Range Rover layout but it's not typical for a fuel tank to dangle below a car's cabin floor level.

Design requirements for wheeled motor vehicle fuel tanks require a physical arrangement that directs any leakage to the ground, rather than allowing it to accumulate on any structure or surface of the vehicle. This is why you find them at the lowest point in many vehicle designs.

 

[lobosrul5]

Cut straight to 6:57 to see how a couple of power tool lithium-ion batteries flame throw shrapnel at high velocity. Then imagine a lithium car battery several times more powerful than that and you get an idea of how it got so noxious, intensely hot and extensively spreading so quickly.




https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t1j9TUV5coc&t=495s

.....

.......... UNDER IMMENSE PRESSURE FROM A HYDRALUIC PRESS!

 

[Vixen]

Could you link to your original source, please.

https://90newstime.com/index.php/2023/10/11/a473695827-html/?feed_id=97234&_unique_id=654ca304c9fa2


Don't say I didn't warn you about the dodgy link.

 

[JayUtah]

Cut straight to 6:57 to see how a couple of power tool lithium-ion batteries flame throw shrapnel at high velocity.

...while being squashed by a powerful hydraulic press. A block of concrete will do the same thing—in a powerful hydraulic press. (Damn; ninjaed...)

 

[GlennB]

.....

.......... UNDER IMMENSE PRESSURE FROM A HYDRALUIC PRESS!

Jesus wept. My eyes just rolled a full 360.

 

[Vixen]

.....

.......... UNDER IMMENSE PRESSURE FROM A HYDRALUIC PRESS!

Yes, and what normally triggers diesel to ignite? Pressure.

 

[JesseCuster]

...while being squashed by a powerful hydraulic press. A block of concrete will do the same thing—in a powerful hydraulic press. (Damn; ninjaed...)

That channel features video of all sorts of items and materials exploding quite violently and satisfyingly after being put under the press.

Batteries in consumer home tools explode and throw out shrapnel when put under an industrial press, so therefore batteries in electrical vehicles explode when they're on fire and not in a hydraulic press?

 

[JesseCuster]

Yes, and what normally triggers diesel to ignite? Pressure.

What does that have to do with a consumer battery exploding when it's squashed by a hyrdaulic press?

 

[GlennB]

https://90newstime.com/index.php/2023/10/11/a473695827-html/?feed_id=97234&_unique_id=654ca304c9fa2


Don't say I didn't warn you about the dodgy link.

It's the same wording as reported in many places. It includes the words:

“We were on the plane and we had started to move when the pilot came on and said that he couldn’t go any further,” she recalls. “He said he’d have to go back. We ended up sitting on the plane for about two hours. I was on Twitter looking at updates and I couldn’t believe what I was seeing."

My bolding. Seems you didn't read your own source.

 

[JayUtah]

Yes, and what normally triggers diesel to ignite? Pressure.

Wow, this is the stupidest attempt at rehabilitating a nonsensical claim I've ever seen. It's fractally wrong.

 

[GlennB]

Yes, and what normally triggers diesel to ignite? Pressure.

In the cylinder. What's your point?

 

[lobosrul5]

Yes, and what normally triggers diesel to ignite? Pressure.

So what you are telling me is, is that Diesel fuel also ignites when under pressure

ETA: of course when its used in an ICE its in aerosol form at the time, but whatever you don't care about facts, or details, or reality.

 

[zooterkin]

Yes, and what normally triggers diesel to ignite? Pressure.

And again. Do you not find it humiliating to show how little you know about a subject?

 

[JesseCuster]

Wow, this is the stupidest attempt at rehabilitating a nonsensical claim I've ever seen. It's fractally wrong.

I'm hoping the offered explanation is funnier than the attempt to explain list angles. I think it might be.

 

[Andy_Ross]

Cut straight to 6:57 to see how a couple of power tool lithium-ion batteries flame throw shrapnel at high velocity. Then imagine a lithium car battery several times more powerful than that and you get an idea of how it got so noxious, intensely hot and extensively spreading so quickly.




https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t1j9TUV5coc&t=495s

It was a diesel car. No lithium shrapnel.

It's been confirmed by the fire brigade.

 

[Andy_Ross]

Yes, and what normally triggers diesel to ignite? Pressure.

Heat.

 

[Foster Zygote]

Intensity of heat.

The propensity and severity of fires and explosions from the accidental ignition of flammable electrolytic solvents used in Li-ion battery systems are anticipated to be somewhat comparable to or perhaps slightly less than those for gasoline or diesel vehicular fuels. The overall consequences for Li-ion batteries are expected to be less because of the much smaller amounts of flammable solvent released and burning in a catastrophic failure situation.

- Stephens, D.; Shawcross, P.; et, al. (October 2017). "Lithium-ion battery safety issues for electric and plug-in hybrid vehicles" (Report No. DOT HS 812 418). Washington, DC: National Highway Traffic Safety Administration.

You're like some Apollo hoaxer going on about the Van Allen radiation belts, with a completely overblown misconception of the phenomenon. Li-ion battery packs don't have Michael Bay style antimatter meltdowns like you obviously imagine. They don't melt through concrete floors and consume whole parking garages like some runaway fusion reaction. Li-ion batteries are hard to extinguish, but they don't burn any worse than an ICE vehicle. Ironically, for your argument, diesel burns hotter than gasoline, making the diesel Land Rover you're trying to dismiss as harmless about the worst thing that could have caught fire in that location, especially if it had a fairly full fuel tank.