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Cont: Luton Airport Car Park Fire part II

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Vixen said:
What are these things then?


https://www.historics.co.uk/buying/...5-2002-range-rover-carmichael-fire-engine-jg/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fire_hydrant

https://www.yumpu.com/en/document/view/5790687/hydraulic-platforms-up-to-56-meters-north-fire

Clue: spot how a Range Rover can be a fire engine.
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Do the Fire Service involved have a range rover fire engine?
Do they have a 56 meter hydraulic platform?

Were either involved in the incident?

A hydrant is the thing in the street that the fire service connect their hoses to .
Buildings usually have a dry riser and not a pressurised fire main.

It matters not as the Fire Service have confirmed it was a diesel car that started the fire.
 
Vixen said:
Ask yourself...
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An invitation to speculate is not evidence. If you want to know why other evidence is not available, find out.

It was thought that...
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Who exactly is thinking this and how do you know that?

Likewise, you have not been told the make and model as that would be a dead give away and we can't have Tata's 1m sq foot gigafactory for lithium batteries plan undermined, can we...?
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Ignorant, handwaving speculation being presented as if it were fact: "Vixensplaining."
 
Vixen said:
My professional standards holds me to protect my objectivity and in the context of being a layman, being easily persuaded by a tabloid news headline would fall under the heading of 'threat to objectivity' the clever headline that misleads. For example: 'LA Fire was Arson' as reported all over the US, when what Gov Newsom actually said was 'at this preliminary stage'. So, objectivity is important. When reading a website, you have to be aware of (a) what is the purpose of this website, what is it wanting to communicate? and (b) the source of the information conveyed: is it a 'Plain English' version of something a lot more complicated; is a source credited and (c) am I looking for information, eg., 'what does Beds Fire and Rescue do?' or 'Interesting facts about Beds Fire and Rescue' or even, 'About us, Fun Facts, Meet Our People!' or (d) News.

You might be aware that in the US there is a difference delineated between what is classed as 'news' and what is a 'magazine'. In the USA, tabloids, such as the DAILY HORROR MAIL would be classed as 'magazines' so borderline is their news content. In the UK, outlets wanting to call themselves 'news broadcasters' have to demonstrate impartiality and a standard of fact checking against fake news. Hence, you will always see the BBC providing the proper quoted source and not a ham-fisted 'Gotcha!' style junk to catch the reader's eye. As a recent example, the SUN had a headline, 'BRAVERMAN WILL JAIL HATE DEMONSTRATORS' (or similar) but she doesn't actually have that power thus was a typical misleading subeditor's headline. You need to be aware that if you are looking for 'information' on whether it is safe to leave your car at a car park, then Beds Fire and Rescue webpage will reassure you that the fire at Luton was a diesel, because the aim is not to let you know how the Fire and Police investigation is coming along but to convey a belief, as initially expressed by Fire Chief Hopkinson. If you want actual news on how the investigation is progressing: bad luck! All you have is the preliminary press statement as there is a gag until the investigation is concluded. News outlets cannot even discuss the driver as he has been arrested so that is potentially subjudice so newspaper lawyers would block attempt to publicise any information about him or interviews.

AIUI the Land Rover Evoque does have a mild hybrid battery under the left passenger seat which is where the flames in the CCTV image appear to be emanating.

Bear in mind that UK cars, unlike in Europe and the USA, have a right hand drive as it still drives on the left hand side of the road.
Click to expand...

It was a diesel car that started the fire, it has been confirmed by the Fire Service involved.
 
Vixen said:
My professional standards...
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...do not exist. You do not enjoy a reputation or presumption of honestly or competence. You have been caught in innumerable lies. You have been corrected, with explanations, by people far more knowledgeable and experienced than you on nearly every subject on which you profess expertise, yet you almost never acknowledge error or fact.

You're an uninformed armchair detective with delusions of grandeur. Nothing more.
 
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Thermal said:
This is silly. Fires are not nearly so predictable. When I was on my township's rescue squad, we saw everything from sustained burning for a half hour to sudden explosions when there was no evident fire. You just don't know. Eight to fifteen minutes for containment are average times, not some kind of absolute.



Good suggestion, but this thread would not exist if you heeded it.
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Vixen said:
Oh wow, you are a fireman? Hence your handle? Cool.
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That is some next level reading comprehension failure.
 
Why are you ignoring me again vixen? Stop being so rude, I've asked you questions you're ignoring.
 
JayUtah said:
...do not exist. You do not enjoy a reputation or presumption of honestly or competence. You have been caught in innumerable lies. You have been corrected, with explanations, by people far more knowledgeable and experienced than you on nearly every subject on which you profess expertise, yet you almost never acknowledge error or fact.

You're an uninformed armchair detective with delusions of grandeur. Nothing more.
Click to expand...

It's funny how those same professional standards presumably led her to cite "self-professed" dealership and garage employees posting comments on the Daily Mail site as experts on car fires.
 
Steve said:
Actually Vixen level reading comprehension. It is the norm for Vixen.
Click to expand...



No Steve, every single other person in every single thread she participates in is wrong about everything.
 
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I wonder if Vixen realizes that after the fire spread, it certainly did ignite battery powered cars. I mean the odds of there being some hybrids or pure battery cars in that parking garage is essentially100%. Everyone knows this. And... no one has denied this. We all are aware that lithium batteries are flammable.
 
Vixen said:
But don't you see, you are not believing your own eyes. The CCTV image clearly depicts what looks like a classic lithium fire (orange, red flames shooting out with grey smoke) and not a diesel one (thick billowing black clouds). In addition, were the car a completely conventional derv it would not self combust like that. Even if it was an unexpected electrical fault (which to be fair would not be surprising in a Range Rover model, if that is what it was, given its recent history of recall), the Fire Brigade, which arrived in eight minutes (verified fact) should have had no problem in putting it out, even if it had spread to one or more other cars. So definitely more probably a mild hybrid for it to become so intense and uncontrollable within minutes, two empty fire extinguishers as evidence of this.

Hopkinson's statement was obviously one of 'reassuring the public' (i.e., let's not panic about EV's, arson or terrorism) and reassure the public that 'we do not believe it was an EV. It is believed to be accidental and a diesel at this stage, subject to verification'.

Note the gag in naming the model and make or even the driver.
Click to expand...
You're lying again.
 
Andy_Ross said:
Do the Fire Service involved have a range rover fire engine?
Do they have a 56 meter hydraulic platform?

Were either involved in the incident?

A hydrant is the thing in the street that the fire service connect their hoses to .
Buildings usually have a dry riser and not a pressurised fire main.

It matters not as the Fire Service have confirmed it was a diesel car that started the fire.
Click to expand...
IIRR, and I may be wrong, only London has a 64m ALP. There are 16m and 32m platforms elsewhere.
 
Disbelief said:
A lot of words to say that there is nothing in your training that gives you any expertise on this, it's all conjecture. You make claims and expect us to take them at face value, yet no expertise for us to take you seriously.

Bolding mine I notice you changed your story. You first stated that the fire was from the front left in the motor compartment, now you claim that it was in the left middle. I know where the batteries are located, because I'm the one who mentioned it in this thread after you claimed front left.

As for knowing that UK has RHD cars, I work in the industry and have dealt with this for a long time. Considering we ship cars to multiple countries, I am sure I know a bit more about requirements in the various regions.
Click to expand...


I'll say one thing: Vixen is remarkably persistent in her excruciatingly embarrassing attempts to "educate" people who are vastly better qualified, better informed and better logicians than her. Brava!
 
JayUtah said:
No. The official written statement of the responsible authority is not a secondary source.
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It must be a secondary source, because it doesn't say what Vixen wants it to say.

Vixen's primary sources are those "self-professed garages and dealers" posting on the Daily Mail website.
 
catsmate said:
IIRR, and I may be wrong, only London has a 64m ALP. There are 16m and 32m platforms elsewhere.
Click to expand...

Having worked in the lifting industry (I was project accountant on the largest lifting project in South America), equipment like that takes time to deploy, the outriggers are crucial and great care is taken to ensure that they are on suitable surfaces.
 
LondonJohn said:
I'll say one thing: Vixen is remarkably persistent in her excruciatingly embarrassing attempts to "educate" people who are vastly better qualified, better informed and better logicians than her. Brava!
Click to expand...

One of the most evocative reasons why armchair detectives are worse than useless.
 
P.J. Denyer said:
Having worked in the lifting industry (I was project accountant on the largest lifting project in South America), equipment like that takes time to deploy, the outriggers are crucial and great care is taken to ensure that they are on suitable surfaces.
Click to expand...

The only number Vixen recognises is the response time for arrival at the car park. She seems to think that in the following minute high-powered jets of water will be flying towards the fire.
 
P.J. Denyer said:
Having worked in the lifting industry (I was project accountant on the largest lifting project in South America), equipment like that takes time to deploy, the outriggers are crucial and great care is taken to ensure that they are on suitable surfaces.
Click to expand...
Absolutely, especially when you're spraying a tonne of water every 25 seconds at that height.
 
LondonJohn said:
I'll say one thing: Vixen is remarkably persistent in her excruciatingly embarrassing attempts to "educate" people who are vastly better qualified, better informed and better logicians than her. Brava!
Click to expand...

I'm just amazed that she has expertise in so many fields. I try to understand my limitations when it comes to many of these threads and am amazed at the knowledge many here have. I do like to add my 2 cents when it is something I do have knowledge of and I find it hilarious that she thinks she needs to explain RHD in the UK to me.
 
JayUtah said:
The thrill of being an armchair detective is that you're instantly qualified in any subject that comes up, and should be given appropriate credit for it.
Click to expand...

Listing these 'qualifications' could be fun, but would probably be seen as a 'call out', and rather naughty.

Sillius Soddus
 
This fact is worth repeating:
Andy_Ross said:
Also the official Fire Service website is a primary source.
It has confirmed several weeks ago that the car was a diesel.
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Andy_Ross said:
It was confirmed several weeks ago by the Fire Service that it was a diesel car.
Click to expand...

Andy_Ross said:
[...] has been confirmed by the Fire Service that it was a diesel car
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Andy_Ross said:
It matters not as the Fire Service have confirmed it was a diesel car that started the fire.
Click to expand...

Andy_Ross said:
It was a diesel car that started the fire, it has been confirmed by the Fire Service involved.
Click to expand...


The fire started in a diesel vehicle, as was confirmed by the Fire Service over a month ago.

Vixen said:
My professional standards
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That's an interesting mode of argument, but it doesn't really work.

You don't win an argument by getting your critics to roll around on the floor, laughing uncontrollably.
 
P.J. Denyer said:
Having worked in the lifting industry (I was project accountant on the largest lifting project in South America), equipment like that takes time to deploy, the outriggers are crucial and great care is taken to ensure that they are on suitable surfaces.
Click to expand...

catsmate said:
Absolutely, especially when you're spraying a tonne of water every 25 seconds at that height.
Click to expand...

I used to drive a tilt tray with a company that had a 'heavy haul rotator' combination towtruck and 'semi crane' often used in accident retrievals/rollovers etc as well as being able to lift and pull broken down large semitrailer prime movers- still with their trailers attached...

When used as a 'crane' it had extending outriggers, and they took a LOT of care on placing and levelling it before deploying the boom- not only does the truck have to be levelled (even a few degrees of 'list' can have dramatic impacts on the stability and weight lifting ability) but you have to assess the surface of what you are lifting from- tar is actually quite a poor surface when it comes to 'point loads' (which is what the outrigger feet represent) and can 'punch through', which can lead to the outriggers sinking and the whole thing possibly tipping over...
And that only had a 12m boom fully extended!!!

I hate to think of what a 64m boom with directed 'water jet' on top adding an axial thrust to the top of a couple of tonnes a minute or more would require to safely set up!!!, even their smaller 32m boom versions (which would only be about halfway up to the fire) is over DOUBLE the height of our boom- you don't just pull up and crank it into the sky LOL
(even then there are 'charts' on the control panels door of the rotator, showing how the angle of lift (both vertical angle ie tilt and the 'swing angle' ie off the back is more stable, directly off the sides almost as much, 45 degrees off any corner greatly reduces stability) and the ground 'load bearing' ability for various surfaces...

All carefully checked before they even start moving a single lever, get it wrong and well- you get to have an 'up close and personal' meeting with the ground...

(I got to run with it quite a few times as the 'offsider' aka 'gopher' (gopher the chains, gopher the shackles, gopher the straps lol), you need a LOT of training and certification before you are allowed to actually operate these things yourself...they preferred to have multiple people onsite when it was being used as a rotator (rather than just a heavy lifter) as more eyes means more safety for all concerned)
ETA not ours, but a very similar one, this one belongs to Ron Pratt who has a youtube channel (LOL- I am subscribed to several 'tow company' channels) for those who don't know what a rotator is...
maxresdefault-502222391.jpg

Lifting a school bus on two winches, the car behind it on the aux boom winches, and he has another one at the rear deck as well still free (plus an underlift on the back for towing trucks etc)
That firefighting rig is literally over four times higher (Rons truck isn't at full height or full extension there)
 
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GlennB said:
I clicked your Flickr link ... brilliant! I know Staines a little and will have another look. Also cats, can't go wrong with cats.
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Thanks. Though the way they are 'developing'* Staines at the moment, plus the usual 'death of the High Street', it may be a bit different from what you knew!


* Surrey needs more accomodation and have decided most of it should be in central Staines.
 
JayUtah said:
No. The official written statement of the responsible authority is not a secondary source.



Is it your position that no facts can be known or reported until some kind of final report?

In other cases you have explicitly dismissed final reports in favor of early, unreliable media sources and "guys on the internet."



Is it your position that no facts can be known or reliability reported until the final report of an investigative body?
Click to expand...


As an objective person who bases conclusions on fact-finding - and this can only be done as a result of an investigation in the case of a major fire - that is correct. That is my position.

I get that people uninterested in a topic are happy to just go along with an early opinion. Whilst a post-mortem might confirm that early opinion, for me it doesn't become a confirmed fact until that post-mortem has been done.


As for 'guys on the internet', I am quite capable of sifting false fact and opinion from confirmed fact. For example, I saw plenty of Brexiteer views but I was able to see through some of the lies and false facts they presented, they may even have had one or two good points. So yes, I can cope with people having a different opinion from myself. I do not find it threatening. I think people find people with an opinion different from their own threatening because they do not have enough confidence in their critical ability so they often see a counter argument as a personal affront but mainly, the problem is they do not understand how debating works or the rules of debate. So they believe the only solution is to demand that a debate be shut down.
 
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Vixen said:
As an objective person who bases conclusions on fact-finding - and this can only be done as a result of an investigation in the case of a major fire - that is correct. That is my position.

I get that people uninterested in a topic are happy to just go along with an early opinion. Whilst a post-mortem might confirm that early opinion, for me it doesn't become a confirmed fact until that post-mortem has been done.


As for 'guys on the internet', I am quite capable of sifting false fact and opinion from confirmed fact. For example, I saw plenty of Brexiteer views but I was able to see through some of the lies and false facts they presented, they may even have had one or two good points. So yes, I can cope with people having a different opinion from myself. I do not find it threatening. I think people find people with an opinion different from their own threatening because they do not have enough confidence in their critical ability so they often see a counter argument as a personal affront but mainly, the problem is they do not understand how debating works or the rules of debate. So they believe the only solution is to demand that a debate be shut down.
Click to expand...

The Fire Service has confirmed on their official website that the car that started the fire was a diesel.

You don't get any more primary.
 
Disbelief said:
Yet this is what you said before:



Which is different from under the front passenger seat. You do realize there is a lot of car in front of the passenger. Also, you claim to know about the battery location, but you don't seem to realize that different models have them in different locations. Instead of saying you AIUI about the battery location, how about you actually look it up and source it.

ETA: And as Andy Ross so elegantly put it, The Fire Service confirmed it was a diesel car.
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I do understand that different car models have their lithium battery in different places. I understand that a Range Rover Evoque does have its battery near the front passenger.

I am aware that this can change in a different year.

Here is everything we know so far (the correct and full version):

Bedfordshire Fire and Rescue Service revealed on Wednesday morning the cause of the blaze was a diesel car.

“We don’t believe it was an electric vehicle,” Andrew Hopkinson, chief fire officer for Bedfordshire Fire and Rescue Service, said.

“It’s believed to be diesel-powered, at this stage all subject to verification. And then that fire has quickly and rapidly spread.”
Click to expand...
Independent
 
Andy_Ross said:
It was a diesel car that started the fire, it has been confirmed by the Fire Service involved.
Click to expand...


The full and correct quote is as follows:

Bedfordshire Fire and Rescue Service revealed on Wednesday morning the cause of the blaze was a diesel car.

“We don’t believe it was an electric vehicle,” Andrew Hopkinson, chief fire officer for Bedfordshire Fire and Rescue Service, said.

“It’s believed to be diesel-powered, at this stage all subject to verification. And then that fire has quickly and rapidly spread.”
Click to expand...

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/what-caused-the-luton-airport-fire-b2429048.html

Stop spreading misinformation.
 
lobosrul5 said:
I wonder if Vixen realizes that after the fire spread, it certainly did ignite battery powered cars. I mean the odds of there being some hybrids or pure battery cars in that parking garage is essentially100%. Everyone knows this. And... no one has denied this. We all are aware that lithium batteries are flammable.
Click to expand...

We are talking about Car Zero.
 
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