P.J. Denyer
Penultimate Amazing
Cont: Luton Airport Car Park Fire IV
- Thread starter Andy_Ross
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catsmate
No longer the 1
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- Apr 9, 2007
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That's not much of a fire.
Foster Zygote
Dental Floss Tycoon
- Joined
- Jun 24, 2006
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I'm sure it will be cited as evidence of the benign nature of diesel vehicle fires.
Cosmic Yak
Philosopher
Needs more anonymous Romanian ladies.
Don't forget it needs a psychic undercover cop to be informing the fire service where these fires are happening, how else can you explain the fire service response?
novaphile
Quester of Doglets
Nooooooooo!!!
That's not a diesel!
It's a soooper seeeecrit illeeeeeeeeeeegal backyard hybrid!!!
That's not a diesel!
It's a soooper seeeecrit illeeeeeeeeeeegal backyard hybrid!!!
Reformed Offlian
Graduate Poster
Preferably extremely tall busty ones with very wide-brimmed hats.
Rolfe
Adult human female
Car burns itself to a crisp in a tunnel at Heathrow airport. Guess what it was. A diesel Land Rover, again.
www.independent.co.uk
Of course, Geoff Buys Cars immediately put out a video claiming it was an EV.
At least the tanker full of petroleum fuel currently causing mayhem and environmental disaster near Hull was carrying jet fuel, so the dino-juice enthusiasts can probably weasel out of any responsibility for that.
Severe delays on M4 approach to Heathrow after vehicle catches fire in tunnel
The road was closed for hours this morning after the vehicle caught fire, but has since reopened
www.independent.co.uk
Of course, Geoff Buys Cars immediately put out a video claiming it was an EV.
At least the tanker full of petroleum fuel currently causing mayhem and environmental disaster near Hull was carrying jet fuel, so the dino-juice enthusiasts can probably weasel out of any responsibility for that.
Rolfe
Adult human female
Here we go again. Gatwick airport this time, and the car was at the exit barrier to the car park. It looks as if its position prevented other cars from catching fire so the entire thing has not ignited.
www.bbc.co.uk
Pictures from the early stages of the conflagration show that it's a VW Tiguan, probably a diesel. It could be some sort of hybrid of course, and indeed hybrids catch fire even more often than pure ICE cars so that's probably a fair bet. But it's not the battery that causes it, and what was burning in that video is 50 litres of liquid fuel, not a battery
So far as I can tell Geoff Buys Cars hasn't seen it yet, but there are several possibilities. He might insist that it was an EV regardless. Or he might agree that it was a hybrid but then decide that that counts as an EV for the purposes of his little games. Or he might do what he did with the Luton fire and declare that it doesn't matter, the fact that about a dozen people on Twitter immediately assumed it must be an EV proves that EVs are dead and nobody will buy one because if the universal fear of fire.
Meanwhile there are 1.43 million pure EVs on the road in Britain, that is, every 23rd car you meet on average will be an EV.
Gatwick Airport north terminal access suspended due to car fire
Gatwick Airport says access to the north terminal has now been resumed following the car fire.
www.bbc.co.uk
Pictures from the early stages of the conflagration show that it's a VW Tiguan, probably a diesel. It could be some sort of hybrid of course, and indeed hybrids catch fire even more often than pure ICE cars so that's probably a fair bet. But it's not the battery that causes it, and what was burning in that video is 50 litres of liquid fuel, not a battery
So far as I can tell Geoff Buys Cars hasn't seen it yet, but there are several possibilities. He might insist that it was an EV regardless. Or he might agree that it was a hybrid but then decide that that counts as an EV for the purposes of his little games. Or he might do what he did with the Luton fire and declare that it doesn't matter, the fact that about a dozen people on Twitter immediately assumed it must be an EV proves that EVs are dead and nobody will buy one because if the universal fear of fire.
Meanwhile there are 1.43 million pure EVs on the road in Britain, that is, every 23rd car you meet on average will be an EV.
Rolfe
Adult human female
I stand corrected. The burning car is a petrol PHEV with a 19.7 kwh battery located at the back of the car. That battery might let the car go about 30 miles on a good day. It's absolutely clear from an earlier picture from the sequence above that the fire started under the front of the car, with the first flames visible just inside the right front wheel. At that point there is a lot of smoke coming from under the bonnet, but the rear of the car is undamaged. The battery was certainly not the source of the fire. This is a classic ICE fire, probably caused by a fault in the 12v system.
It was a very new car, a 25 number plate, so really no more than six weeks old. The Autotrader entry says it only had 3,000 miles on the clock, though that actually seems a lot for such a new car.
It should really be no surprise that it's a hybrid, as the combustion records of hybrids are absolutely shocking.
According to these data, a hybrid is over twice as likely to catch fire as a pure ICE car, and amost 140 times as likely to catch fire as a pure EV. It also confirms the figure of 60x for the likelihood of a an ICE fire relative to an EV. I've seen multipliers of up to 80x from different sources.
It's obviously not the batteries that are causing this rate of fires in hybrids, and it obviously wasn't the battery that caused this one to go on fire. So why are hybrids twice as combustible as pure ICE? My amateur guess is that it's down to complexity. A pure EV is a very simple machine, compared to anything with an engine in it. There isn't so much scope for things to short-circuit, and when they do, there isn't the oil and the hot exhaust and so on to make the whole thing more likely to catch. In contrast the hybrid is more complex than the ICE, with two drive trains and gizmos for switching from one to the other. And of course it still has the oil and the hot exhaust and so on.
The issue is, as we saw from Vixen earlier in the thread, that the presence of a battery is used to hype this up into "OMG it had a battery it was an EV it was an EV fire! Told you so!" by a bunch of people. It's all over Twitter and various news web sites. Try telling these people about the respective rates of fires in the two types of vehicle and they simply don't listen.
This is going to go on, and probably get worse, until the monumentally stupid idea that is the PHEV finally meets its well-deserved death. On the one hand I'm sad to see such a new and apparently very nice car burned to a crisp. But on the other hand, one fewer PHEV on the road, whoopee.
It was a very new car, a 25 number plate, so really no more than six weeks old. The Autotrader entry says it only had 3,000 miles on the clock, though that actually seems a lot for such a new car.
It should really be no surprise that it's a hybrid, as the combustion records of hybrids are absolutely shocking.
According to these data, a hybrid is over twice as likely to catch fire as a pure ICE car, and amost 140 times as likely to catch fire as a pure EV. It also confirms the figure of 60x for the likelihood of a an ICE fire relative to an EV. I've seen multipliers of up to 80x from different sources.
It's obviously not the batteries that are causing this rate of fires in hybrids, and it obviously wasn't the battery that caused this one to go on fire. So why are hybrids twice as combustible as pure ICE? My amateur guess is that it's down to complexity. A pure EV is a very simple machine, compared to anything with an engine in it. There isn't so much scope for things to short-circuit, and when they do, there isn't the oil and the hot exhaust and so on to make the whole thing more likely to catch. In contrast the hybrid is more complex than the ICE, with two drive trains and gizmos for switching from one to the other. And of course it still has the oil and the hot exhaust and so on.
The issue is, as we saw from Vixen earlier in the thread, that the presence of a battery is used to hype this up into "OMG it had a battery it was an EV it was an EV fire! Told you so!" by a bunch of people. It's all over Twitter and various news web sites. Try telling these people about the respective rates of fires in the two types of vehicle and they simply don't listen.
This is going to go on, and probably get worse, until the monumentally stupid idea that is the PHEV finally meets its well-deserved death. On the one hand I'm sad to see such a new and apparently very nice car burned to a crisp. But on the other hand, one fewer PHEV on the road, whoopee.
Rolfe
Adult human female
And another one.
In fact, surprisingly, this isn't a Land Rover at all. It's a Ford Ranger pickup. Not made as an EV.
In fact, surprisingly, this isn't a Land Rover at all. It's a Ford Ranger pickup. Not made as an EV.
Last edited:
Rolfe
Adult human female
Here we go again.
www.mylondon.news
Here's a video of it that shows the number plate.
It's a Merc E-class, nine years old, diesel. No sort of hybrid.
Maybe one day one of these will turn out to be an EV. You'd think eventually, the odds would favour it. Maybe.
Several cars burnt out in shopping centre blaze
Firefighters battled the flames for over two hours
www.mylondon.news
Here's a video of it that shows the number plate.
It's a Merc E-class, nine years old, diesel. No sort of hybrid.
Maybe one day one of these will turn out to be an EV. You'd think eventually, the odds would favour it. Maybe.
P.J. Denyer
Penultimate Amazing
Here we go again.
Several cars burnt out in shopping centre blaze
Firefighters battled the flames for over two hours
Here's a video of it that shows the number plate.
It's a Merc E-class, nine years old, diesel. No sort of hybrid.
View attachment 60757
Maybe one day one of these will turn out to be an EV. You'd think eventually, the odds would favour it. Maybe.
Clearly Rishi Sunak hacked the DVLA database.
novaphile
Quester of Doglets
It's taken a while for me to find the source of the PHEVs are bad claim, but everyone seems to be referring back to this one claim by an insurance company.
www.autoinsuranceez.com
They appear to have estimated the number of PHEV fires from a published list of recalls.
Their estimate does not seem to have any connection with reality.
Their link to a data source is for the number of electric vehicles sold. (Nothing to do with fires).
Gas vs. Electric Car Fires in 2025 (Shocking Stats)| AutoinsuranceEZ.com
Gas vs. electric car fires comparison show insurance rates of $120/month for gas cars and $100/month for electric cars. Compare car fire stats to find the best choice.
www.autoinsuranceez.com
They appear to have estimated the number of PHEV fires from a published list of recalls.
Their estimate does not seem to have any connection with reality.
Their link to a data source is for the number of electric vehicles sold. (Nothing to do with fires).
Rolfe
Adult human female
I'm pretty sure I saw different figures for that, but since I didn't bookmark it I can't find it again. If you're right we definitely need better data. But it's a statistic I've seen crop up again and again in different contexts, and before that article was published.
novaphile
Quester of Doglets
If you can find a different source, I'd certainly like to read it.
All I could find was other articles pointing to the insurance company.
Rolfe
Adult human female
If I come across it again, I'll post it. The stats that show that pure EVs catch fire between 20 and 80 times less frequently than ICE seem to be pretty solid though - the range of figures reflects the different studies that have been done. I did see another confounder mentioned on a YouTube video though - that a significant proportion of ICE fires are deliberate arson with the intent of covering up a crime. (Then I suppose there's the deliberate arson of Teslas...)
I could see the logic that hybrids might be more inclined to catch fire than EVs though, with both power trains and even more complicated electronics.
I could see the logic that hybrids might be more inclined to catch fire than EVs though, with both power trains and even more complicated electronics.
novaphile
Quester of Doglets
The confounding problem is real and not easily dealt with, I can see example of that in the various academic data about vehicle fires.
It's difficult to find out if vehicles caused a fire or were destroyed by a fire external to the vehicle, in house fires for example.
Similarly vehicles that spontaneously explode while driving vs. vehicles that catch fire after being destroyed in a collision.
(One example I bumped into, was a battery that caught fire at a wrecker's yard, while it was being disassembled!)
The biggest problem that I've seen is places that lump skateboards, hoverboards, monowheels, e-scooters and electric bikes all into the 'electric vehicle' category. I believe that the UK has recently made a mandatory change to reporting requirements to prevent that.
There is a theory that PHEVs can catch fire because the engine heats up the battery.
I've not personally seen a PHEV where the battery and engine are co-located, nor a PHEV with the exhaust routed through the battery case, but, if those things exist, I can certainly see the problem.
My concern with the PHEV bad stat, is that it quotes a number of 3,474 fires in hybrid vehicles per 100,000 vehicles sold, yet other research groups have only been able to find approximately 500 hybrid vehicle fires in total.
It really just looks like a methodology error to me.
Rolfe
Adult human female
I do recall some statements a couple of years ago that hybrids were intermediate in fire risk between ICE and EVs. I have no idea what that was based on though. Another confounder is that both EVs and hybrids are relatively recent introductions and there aren't many really old cars with these drivetrains around, whereas there are a lot of old ICE bangers in circulation. But having said that, none of the headline fires we've been seeing have been in particularly old ICE cars.
Cheap e-scooters bought from AliExpress have been a known problem for some time, but everything was "an EV fire", as you say. I believe hybrid batteries don't have the same battery management and safety systems there are in EVs, but having said that, the (few) hybrid fires I've seen haven't started in the traction battery anyway. (I don't think hammering a 20 kwh battery by running it from 100% to low every day and charging it from low to 100% every night is a particularly good way to treat any battery, but I don't think it increases the fire risk.)
Cheap e-scooters bought from AliExpress have been a known problem for some time, but everything was "an EV fire", as you say. I believe hybrid batteries don't have the same battery management and safety systems there are in EVs, but having said that, the (few) hybrid fires I've seen haven't started in the traction battery anyway. (I don't think hammering a 20 kwh battery by running it from 100% to low every day and charging it from low to 100% every night is a particularly good way to treat any battery, but I don't think it increases the fire risk.)
Wudang
BOFH
I found this (which I think may have been posted before?) I used a different search engine with the search terms below.
BASE search engine and parms https://www.base-search.net/Search/...&oaboost=1&refid=dcdden&filter[]=f_dclang:eng
BASE search engine and parms https://www.base-search.net/Search/...&oaboost=1&refid=dcdden&filter[]=f_dclang:eng
novaphile
Quester of Doglets
Did you notice this little gem?
Kind of hard to get to that to line up with the offending line from the insurance 'research' isn't it?
353 fires in any EV of any kind in twelve years vs 3,473 per 100k vehicles sold.
Seriously, I smell a rat.
I'm noting from the insurance article, the second figure was their justification for charging an extra $20 per month insurance premiums for household fire insurance.
gypsyjackson
Master Poster
I’ve tried to find figures for EV fires in Malaysia, as a large proportion of the population here thinks they catch fire easily. I found figures from the Malaysian fire service saying there were 3,500+ car fires in 2023, then a news report saying there were 4 EV fires in the 12 months up to October 2024, of which 3 were due to crash/debris damage and 1 overcharging. EVs are only 1.2% of recent registrations, though, so probably too small a sample size on top and bottom of equation to draw anything reliable from.
This year, one EV fire made the headlines when a Taycan caught fire, and the press delighted in ‘Million Dollar EV burnout’ style reporting (note people here often refer to the ringgit as dollar, and a Taycan goes for RM750k, so if you imagine it had an extra 33% of optional extras, you can squint to get to that figure!). But the reporting of the 50 or so people who die each year from ICE car fires is paragraphs on p9 unless it involves children.
Malaysia also has a heftily petroleum-driven economy (though it’s not the biggest part any more), with revenues from the state petroleum company backing up government spending.
This year, one EV fire made the headlines when a Taycan caught fire, and the press delighted in ‘Million Dollar EV burnout’ style reporting (note people here often refer to the ringgit as dollar, and a Taycan goes for RM750k, so if you imagine it had an extra 33% of optional extras, you can squint to get to that figure!). But the reporting of the 50 or so people who die each year from ICE car fires is paragraphs on p9 unless it involves children.
Malaysia also has a heftily petroleum-driven economy (though it’s not the biggest part any more), with revenues from the state petroleum company backing up government spending.
novaphile
Quester of Doglets
I'm horrified that anyone dies from a car fire.
That's really awful.
That's really awful.
Rolfe
Adult human female
An ICE vehicle that catches fire goes up very quickly. Anything that prevents an occupant from leaping out quickly can be fatal. In contrast EV fires often, I think usually, start more of a slow burn (no liquid fuel and very little oil) and are easier to escape from.
I know someone who got a small reduction in his home insurance premium when he told his insurance company that he had an EV (and a home charger), on the basis that this reduced the likelihood of a vehicle-related fire at the house.
I'm not sure how you overcharge an EV, unless the thing is faulty. I believe that the safety standards for Chinese EVs sold in China aren't nearly so rigorous as for the cars they export. That although many Chinese drive cars similar to the ones for foreign markets, there are also cheap runabouts without the battery management systems we would expect. So that's going to skew things.
I think there are two factors that will work in opposite directions. One is improving manufacturing standards to make EVs even less likely to catch fire, but the other is an increase in ageing EVs with wearing components and dodgy repairs. Although, as time goes on and the early models are mainly scrapped, the overall effect could be positive.
The flammability of ICE cars is pretty horrific, but it's been ignored as something that's "aye been". With the switch to EVs, concentration on fire reduction can only be a good thing regardless of the fact that EVs are already relatively safe. The overall benefit could be substantial.
I know someone who got a small reduction in his home insurance premium when he told his insurance company that he had an EV (and a home charger), on the basis that this reduced the likelihood of a vehicle-related fire at the house.
I'm not sure how you overcharge an EV, unless the thing is faulty. I believe that the safety standards for Chinese EVs sold in China aren't nearly so rigorous as for the cars they export. That although many Chinese drive cars similar to the ones for foreign markets, there are also cheap runabouts without the battery management systems we would expect. So that's going to skew things.
I think there are two factors that will work in opposite directions. One is improving manufacturing standards to make EVs even less likely to catch fire, but the other is an increase in ageing EVs with wearing components and dodgy repairs. Although, as time goes on and the early models are mainly scrapped, the overall effect could be positive.
The flammability of ICE cars is pretty horrific, but it's been ignored as something that's "aye been". With the switch to EVs, concentration on fire reduction can only be a good thing regardless of the fact that EVs are already relatively safe. The overall benefit could be substantial.
Wudang
BOFH
As a side note playing with that BASE search it seems to offer less sophisticated queries than Google Scholar but vastly more of the articles found seem to be free. YMMV etc
Rolfe
Adult human female
Another day, another diesel.
news.stv.tv
Fire crews tackle vehicle blaze at Edinburgh Airport car park
Fire crews were sent to the car blaze at Edinburgh Airport after receiving a report at around 1.40pm on Saturday.
news.stv.tv
Die(sel) another day...
Jack by the hedge
Safely Ignored
- Joined
- Oct 14, 2009
- Messages
- 20,091
Someone's found a new way to do car parking wrong in Luton Airport's Car Park.
Car Park 1 this time, the twin of number 2 which burned down. This time they decided to exit the car park while still 2 floors up. IDK if it was an EV or not (but it definitely was and it was somehow definitely the cause, of course).
www.bbc.co.uk
Car Park 1 this time, the twin of number 2 which burned down. This time they decided to exit the car park while still 2 floors up. IDK if it was an EV or not (but it definitely was and it was somehow definitely the cause, of course).
London Luton Airport: Man hurt after vehicle falls from car park
The vehicle is believed to have taken a wrong turn and crashed from the third storey to the ground.
www.bbc.co.uk
catsmate
No longer the 1
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- Apr 9, 2007
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- 32,998
Those barriers look rather lightweight, usually they're concrete.Someone's found a new way to do car parking wrong in Luton Airport's Car Park.
Car Park 1 this time, the twin of number 2 which burned down. This time they decided to exit the car park while still 2 floors up. IDK if it was an EV or not (but it definitely was and it was somehow definitely the cause, of course).
London Luton Airport: Man hurt after vehicle falls from car park
The vehicle is believed to have taken a wrong turn and crashed from the third storey to the ground.
Jack by the hedge
Safely Ignored
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- Oct 14, 2009
- Messages
- 20,091
I was thinking that too. Flimsy.
You rather imagine that multi-storey car parks would be built such that if a confused driver presses go instead of stop, or goes right instead of left, they won't suddenly find themselves outside.
catsmate
No longer the 1
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- 32,998
Exactly. Very disruptive to traffic.
Off-hand I don't recall an aboveground multi-storey with such light barriers but I admit it's not something I notice.
junkshop
Otto's Favourite
If you drive out of the side of building by taking 'a wrong turn', then I would question whether you should be allowed to operate a motor vehicle.
Ditto. Maybe it was a Tesla that didn't "see" the flimsy barrier?
P.J. Denyer
Penultimate Amazing
Someone's found a new way to do car parking wrong in Luton Airport's Car Park.
Car Park 1 this time, the twin of number 2 which burned down. This time they decided to exit the car park while still 2 floors up. IDK if it was an EV or not (but it definitely was and it was somehow definitely the cause, of course).
London Luton Airport: Man hurt after vehicle falls from car park
The vehicle is believed to have taken a wrong turn and crashed from the third storey to the ground.
That's quite an extreme response to losing your ticket.
Rolfe
Adult human female
I think this car actually was an EV. Astonishingly it seems to be more or less intact and is not on fire.