[Continuation] Luton Airport Car Park Fire IV

[Carrot Flower King]

Is there some sort of competition to keep this nonsense going as long as possible or to have the last word?

Owner of a 2014 BMW M135i, manual transmission, i.e. first iteration of the M135i, pre-facelift and upping the engine power a tad.

No hybrids were involved in the making of this post. Thank you.

 

[Craig4]

You heard. I informed you I was not giving you my personal information. Respect people's boundaries. I have told you all you need to know for information purposes.


Let me know if you disagree with me.

You've told us you don't own a hybrid. You lied.

 

[Mojo]

You do know you can also read the actual report, right?

Yes, but it says that it was a diesel vehicle, so it is just repeating the provisional statement from the initial press conference. Vixen is still waiting for a proper update, i.e. one that says it was an EV or hybrid.

 

[Craig4]

It might have been all about spin for you and the 'management of expectations' of the communications teams on various media.

I couldn't care less about the propaganda, the PR and the 'sensitive' political issues.

That's the difference between you and me.

No, all you care about are your silly little fantasies.

 

[Craig4]

Obviously you have never been stalked. Lucky you. If you want to discuss how people get to be victims of stalkers, start a thread on it and I'll explain why protecting your personal information is not a joke.


I have told you exactly what type of car I have. Full stop.

Another lie. I think it might be easier to just find the few posts where it's remotely possibly you've told the truth. It would be a short job.

 

[Mojo]

You've told us you don't own a hybrid. You lied.

No, she's told us she drives a hybrid but that it is registered as "a 'petrol' car".

 

[Vixen]

You just made that up too.

Your fantasy now requires that JLR announced their new models and began taking orders in 2013 for delivery in 2014 but the new feature for which the buyers were paying thousands extra was still just a prototype and the first buyers got unfinished cars with a non-hybrid dashboard and no HEV badging.

I know JLR gets a lot of flak for their quality control and reliability but that's just crazy nonsense. They're selling aspirational cars at high prices and they do not deliver pre-production lashups to customers.

No, I was talking about BEFORE lithium batteries became trendy as eco-friendly. Surely car manufacturers had some experience of how they worked before marketing them as a special feature and a hyped-up USP...?


Product development and all that. The idea didn't just come out of the blue.

 

[Andy_Ross]

No, I was talking about BEFORE lithium batteries became trendy as eco-friendly. Surely car manufacturers had some experience of how they worked before marketing them as a special feature and a hyped-up USP...?


Product development and all that. The idea didn't just come out of the blue.

Do you think it's common for car manufacturers to sell prototypes and development models to the public as new cars without telling them?

 

[zooterkin]

I have a hybrid and it is registered on Traficom as a 'petrol' car.

Even assuming you're correct, what relevance does the way Finland chooses to classify vehicles have for this fire that started in a diesel car?

 

[zooterkin]

No, I was talking about BEFORE lithium batteries became trendy as eco-friendly. Surely car manufacturers had some experience of how they worked before marketing them as a special feature and a hyped-up USP...?


Product development and all that. The idea didn't just come out of the blue.

Surely you have just shown us yet another area of life about which you have no clue, but which you feel the need to share your ill-informed opinions about?

 

[Vixen]

No, she's told us she drives a hybrid but that it is registered as "a 'petrol' car".

Traficom for the purposes of charging road tax, based on CO2 emissions, only distinguishes private cars as petrol or derv, as opposed 'outside source of electricity'. A full EV wouldn't be subject to road tax for obvious reasons.

The sales receipt includes make, model and factory type, the first registration date 25 Aug 2023 and owners manual clearly states hybrid plus label on boot. Traficom clearly knows the owner is myself without my having to inform them.

 

[Mojo]

I have a hybrid and it is registered on Traficom as a 'petrol' car.

Even assuming you're correct, what relevance does the way Finland chooses to classify vehicles have for this fire that started in a diesel car?

According to the Vehicle Tax Calculator on the Traficom page EHocking linked to, Finland classifies them as:

Petrol
Diesel
Electric
Petrol/electric, external charging
Petrol/electric, self-charging
Diesel/electric, external charging
Diesel/electric, self-charging
Methane (CNG)
Petrol/CNG

If Vixen's car is a petrol hybrid, shouldn't it be classified as the fourth or fifth category rather than the first?

 

[zooterkin]

Traficom for the purposes of charging road tax, based on CO2 emissions, only distinguishes private cars as petrol or derv, as opposed 'outside source of electricity'. A full EV wouldn't be subject to road tax for obvious reasons.

The sales receipt includes make, model and factory type, the first registration date 25 Aug 2023 and owners manual clearly states hybrid plus label on boot. Traficom clearly knows the owner is myself without my having to inform them.

Which has nothing to do with the post you originally responded to, saying that cars have some indication that they are a hybrid. You are, in fact, now confirming that. The way Finland records the power source for taxation purposes is completely irrelevant to this thread.

The fire started in a diesel.

 

[Vixen]

Nope, you have repeatedly and consistently claimed that that was just a repetition of a provisional statement made in response to a question at the initial press conference.

Far from acknowledging the fact, you continued to demand that you should be told the exact make and model of the vehicle.

And as pointed out the make model and year was exempt as per FOI Act because it was protected until as of being cleared fit for public domain. So it is obvious all those guff PR 'updates' were merely PR stuff to manage expectations of people like yourself who had no idea that when an incident is being investigated you have to wait for the investigations to be complete and authorised.

Within a few hours of the start of the incident, Bedfordshire FRS received numerous requests for information; these were received via phone call, emails and via the online portal of the Service’s website. To date, Bedfordshire FRS has received over 50 requests for information. Most of the requests were dealt with under the Freedom of Information Act 2000, with a statement jointly agreed between Bedfordshire FRS and Bedfordshire Police being provided with limited information that was already in the public domain and advising further information would be released when the investigation had been concluded.

p 73

Instead of being so eager to do battle with a perceived baddie, the anti-ULEZ mob, I was more interested in the actual state of affairs. Instead, I have had to tolerate people preaching about the statistics of which type of car is most likely to catch fire.

 

[Mojo]

Traficom for the purposes of charging road tax, based on CO2 emissions, only distinguishes private cars as petrol or derv, as opposed 'outside source of electricity'. A full EV wouldn't be subject to road tax for obvious reasons.

If you have a petrol-powered vehicle, you only need to pay the basic tax. If your vehicle is powered by some other force or fuel than petrol, such as diesel or electricity, you must pay the tax on driving power in addition to the basic tax.

https://www.traficom.fi/en/transport/motorist/vehicle-tax-amount

 

[Mojo]

Within a few hours of the start of the incident, Bedfordshire FRS received numerous requests for information; these were received via phone call, emails and via the online portal of the Service’s website. To date, Bedfordshire FRS has received over 50 requests for information. Most of the requests were dealt with under the Freedom of Information Act 2000, with a statement jointly agreed between Bedfordshire FRS and Bedfordshire Police being provided with limited information that was already in the public domain and advising further information would be released when the investigation had been concluded.

p 73

That's about an agreed statement with which to reply to FOI requests etc., not about future press releases.

When the BFRS said, in a press statement dated 21 March, that the "vehicle involved was diesel-powered – it was not a mild hybrid, plug-in hybrid or electric vehicle", was that statement true?

 

[Jack by the hedge]

No, I was talking about BEFORE lithium batteries became trendy as eco-friendly. Surely car manufacturers had some experience of how they worked before marketing them as a special feature and a hyped-up USP...?





Product development and all that. The idea didn't just come out of the blue.

You have a fairy story in your head about car makers selling test mules with a partly-developed novel drivetrain as if they were type-approved existing models, presuming neither buyers nor any authorities will notice or care. It's utterly divorced from reality.

It would be like your doctor prescribing you some medication he'd just dreamed up and made in his kitchen, presuming that would probably be fine and safe and ethical and he wouldn't be struck off and jailed so long as you didn't die of poisoning.

 

[Vixen]

Is Luton Today lying to you?



Nota bene: the 'believed' applies to the electrical fault, not to the car being a diesel.

But why is it worded, 'it is believed'? Wasn't one of the points of the investigation to explain exactly what happened, not what was believed to have happened by a boffin whilst the fire was still burning? Even then if it is a best educated guess, should there not be some kind of time line of how it spread despite two fire extinguishers emptied over it - and it wasn't parked next to any other car ATT - explaining why the flames and smoke looked the way they did? If they do not know then it should say so.

 

[Vixen]

Erm... you'll "reserve your opinion" about what, exactly?

What was wrong with the car.

 

[GlennB]

According to the Vehicle Tax Calculator on the Traficom page EHocking linked to, Finland classifies them as:

Petrol
Diesel
Electric
Petrol/electric, external charging
Petrol/electric, self-charging
Diesel/electric, external charging
Diesel/electric, self-charging
Methane (CNG)
Petrol/CNG

If Vixen's car is a petrol hybrid, shouldn't it be classified as the fourth or fifth category rather than the first?

Specifically the 4th, as she doesn't claim a mild hybrid. But in reality she doesn't have a hybrid, given that when she starts her car she presses the clutch. Perhaps she imagined the clutch?

 

[Vixen]

No, she's told us she drives a hybrid but that it is registered as "a 'petrol' car".

...as per Road Tax.

 

[zooterkin]

But why is it worded, 'it is believed'? Wasn't one of the points of the investigation to explain exactly what happened, not what was believed to have happened by a boffin whilst the fire was still burning? Even then if it is a best educated guess, should there not be some kind of time line of how it spread despite two fire extinguishers emptied over it - and it wasn't parked next to any other car ATT - explaining why the flames and smoke looked the way they did? If they do not know then it should say so.

Oh, what a surprise, once again you ignore the salient part of the post.

The car is clearly stated to be a diesel. Why do you still harbour doubts?

 

[jimbob]

But why is it worded, 'it is believed'? Wasn't one of the points of the investigation to explain exactly what happened, not what was believed to have happened by a boffin whilst the fire was still burning? Even then if it is a best educated guess, should there not be some kind of time line of how it spread despite two fire extinguishers emptied over it - and it wasn't parked next to any other car ATT - explaining why the flames and smoke looked the way they did? If they do not know then it should say so.

Because it is "believed that the fire started due to an ‘electrical fault". It could just be journalistic boilerplate. Look at the report if you want more details However the type of vehicle required no investigation because it was clearly a diesel. The ANPR cameras in the car park would have been sufficient. Unless it had had a cloned numberplate, whereupon the chassis number would have given the exact details. Also if there were no remains of GBFO battery packs, but simply a conventional diesel engine compartment, that would be a bit of a clue.

 

[zooterkin]

...as per Road Tax.

What relevance do you imagine that has?

 

[Jack by the hedge]

And as pointed out the make model and year was exempt as per FOI Act because it was protected until as of being cleared fit for public domain...

The fact it was a diesel and not any kind of EV was not protected and was stated publicly, and later clarified to remove any ambiguity.

You don't care what the make, model and year were any more than you feel we need to know that information about your car.

You just want it to have had a lithium battery so you can be right about that. But you were wrong.

 

[Vixen]

Surely you have just shown us yet another area of life about which you have no clue, but which you feel the need to share your ill-informed opinions about?

I am 'a master business strategist' apparently. .

 

[GlennB]

...as per Road Tax.

There are 4 categories that mention petrol. Which category is yours in?

 

[Mojo]

But why is it worded, 'it is believed'? Wasn't one of the points of the investigation to explain exactly what happened, not what was believed to have happened by a boffin whilst the fire was still burning? Even then if it is a best educated guess, should there not be some kind of time line of how it spread despite two fire extinguishers emptied over it - and it wasn't parked next to any other car ATT - explaining why the flames and smoke looked the way they did? If they do not know then it should say so.

If it didn't start as an electrical fault, how does this impact your theory that it started as an electrical fault?

 

[Mojo]

...as per Road Tax.

If you have a petrol-powered vehicle, you only need to pay the basic tax. If your vehicle is powered by some other force or fuel than petrol, such as diesel or electricity, you must pay the tax on driving power in addition to the basic tax.

https://www.traficom.fi/en/transport/motorist/vehicle-tax-amount


Do you pay the tax on driving power?

 

[Jack by the hedge]

But why is it worded, 'it is believed'?

You're quibbling about the wording of a secondary source. That doesn't change the report. Read the report.

 

[Vixen]

Because it is "believed that the fire started due to an ‘electrical fault". It could just be journalistic boilerplate. Look at the report if you want more details However the type of vehicle required no investigation because it was clearly a diesel. The ANPR cameras in the car park would have been sufficient. Unless it had had a cloned numberplate, whereupon the chassis number would have given the exact details. Also if there were no remains of GBFO battery packs, but simply a conventional diesel engine compartment, that would be a bit of a clue.

The only issue I was throwing out there was the point that DVLA has only recognised hybrid registration from 2014. But Toyota Prius was a mass-produced hybrid since 1997:

The first mass-produced hybrid vehicle was the Toyota Prius, launched in Japan in 1997

Wiki

So, whilst a car might be registered 2014 as 'diesel' or 'petrol' it doesn't rule out that it could still have had a lithium ion battery hybrid powertrain.

 

[Vixen]

https://www.traficom.fi/en/transport/motorist/vehicle-tax-amount


Do you pay the tax on driving power?

Look up the definition of hybrid which is a vehicle with a hybrid electric powertrain:

"Hybrid vehicle drivetrains transmit power to the driving wheels for hybrid vehicles. A hybrid vehicle has multiple forms of motive power, and can come in many configurations. For example, a hybrid may receive its energy by burning gasoline, but switch between an electric motor and a combustion engine." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hybrid_vehicle_drivetrain


It doesn't have to fulfill any other obligation, such as road tax designation or automatic/manual transmission.

 

[zooterkin]

The only issue I was throwing out there was the point that DVLA has only recognised hybrid registration from 2014. But Toyota Prius was a mass-produced hybrid since 1997:

Wiki

So, whilst a car might be registered 2014 as 'diesel' or 'petrol' it doesn't rule out that it could still have had a lithium ion battery hybrid powertrain.

Utterly irrelevant, since people who actually looked at the car determined it was solely diesel powered.

 

[Rolfe]

LKA?
<edit> Ah! Lane Keeping Assistance. 2nd page of Google results. Not the ladies' kennel association or the Landeskriminalamt etc.

Commonly referred to as Lane Killer Assist, due to its propensity to try to turn you into the path of oncoming traffic, or force you to mow down a cyclist.

 

[Steve]

You're quibbling about the wording of a secondary source. That doesn't change the report. Read the report.

Vixen adores secondary sources. They are more likely than official sources to use some wording that she can twist to do some more JAQing off.

 

[Rolfe]

As I understand it, the Liverpool Range Rover was modified with a night heater.

Your understanding is incorrect. The Liverpool Range Rover was an LPG conversion. ("Dodgy" LPG conversion according to Dr Euan McTurk.)

 

[Mojo]

If you have a petrol-powered vehicle, you only need to pay the basic tax. If your vehicle is powered by some other force or fuel than petrol, such as diesel or electricity, you must pay the tax on driving power in addition to the basic tax.

https://www.traficom.fi/en/transport/motorist/vehicle-tax-amount


Do you pay the tax on driving power?

Look up the definition of hybrid which is a vehicle with a hybrid electric powertrain:

"Hybrid vehicle drivetrains transmit power to the driving wheels for hybrid vehicles. A hybrid vehicle has multiple forms of motive power, and can come in many configurations. For example, a hybrid may receive its energy by burning gasoline, but switch between an electric motor and a combustion engine." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hybrid_vehicle_drivetrain


It doesn't have to fulfill any other obligation, such as road tax designation or automatic/manual transmission.

Look up the categories of vehicle that are liable for the tax on driving power here: https://www.traficom.fi/en/transport/motorist/vehicle-tax-amount

You claim that you drive a hybrid that "is registered on Traficom as a 'petrol' car."

Do you pay the tax on driving power? It's a simple enough question.

 

[LondonJohn]

The only issue I was throwing out there was the point that DVLA has only recognised hybrid registration from 2014. But Toyota Prius was a mass-produced hybrid since 1997:

Wiki

So, whilst a car might be registered 2014 as 'diesel' or 'petrol' it doesn't rule out that it could still have had a lithium ion battery hybrid powertrain.

Why are you quibbling about something that's entirely irrelevant to this discussion (ie the matter of how cars are classified for road tax purposes)?

The Range Rover in which this fire started was - unequivocally and definitively - a diesel ICE vehicle and not an EV of any flavour. As I said before, the fire service's forensic engineers would easily have been able to tell with certainty what the drive train of this car was (I realise you probably don't understand this fact, because you clearly don't understand the whole subject at all). And as for your ridiculous fantasy of this car somehow having been a prototype which was sold under false pretensions..... laughable and laughably bereft of any scientific/engineering understanding.

 

[LondonJohn]

I am 'a master business strategist' apparently. .

No. No you're not. By an embarrassingly large margin, as evinced by your posts on such matters.

 

[LondonJohn]

What was wrong with the car.

By this, do you mean "How the fire actually started"?

And if so, then:

a) why does it matter to you?

b) it is almost certainly impossible for any authority to give a reliable answer to that question, owing to the extent of the fire damage in and around the engine bay of the vehicle. All that the forensic engineers can deduce is that, given the approximate initial source of ignition (somewhat indicated by the small smoke emission captured on CCTV at the entrance barrier) coupled with the way the fire spread, it was most likely to have been a fire in an electric component or the engine compartment wiring loom.