Rolfe
Adult human female
It doesn't surprise me. I think the police know that Mitchell is innocent but want to save face. I have no real idea why they fitted him up in the first place.
Luke Mitchell and the murder of Jodi Jones
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Chris_Halkides
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fingernail scrapings and other items of evidence
"FINGERNAIL scrapings of murdered schoolgirl Jodi Jones were among the pieces of evidence illicitly taken by cops to destroy, we can reveal.
The key samples would likely have contained DNA from her convicted killer Luke Mitchell if she tried to fight him off." Scottish Sun.
I have not been able to learn much about prior testing of the fingernails, but this is an area of keen interest for me.
"FINGERNAIL scrapings of murdered schoolgirl Jodi Jones were among the pieces of evidence illicitly taken by cops to destroy, we can reveal.
The key samples would likely have contained DNA from her convicted killer Luke Mitchell if she tried to fight him off." Scottish Sun.
I have not been able to learn much about prior testing of the fingernails, but this is an area of keen interest for me.
Nessie
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I think you are correct about saving face. Once a suspect appears on the radar, to then remove that person means cops, often the senior ones running the investigation, have to admit they were wrong. They can seriously struggle to do that, so they plough on. COPFS can be just as bad.
I think that initially they did think it was him, so he was not fitted up.
I can't see how they would think it was him with no forensic evidence. This speaks ill of the IQ needed to be in the uniform.
Rolfe
Adult human female
There was absolutely no reason at all to think it was him at the beginning, other than that he was one of the group of searchers who found the body and he was her boyfriend.
Maybe that puts him on the list of suspects, but it shouldn't cause an instant 100% concentration on him as the only suspect to the point where they simply ignored about half a dozen people with, realistically, more evidence against them, didn't collect any forensics, and left them to destroy any evidence at their leisure.
Then when it turned out that Mitchell had an alibi and the forensics came back with nothing to implicate him (when he should have been all over the crime scene if he'd done it) all they were left with was to discredit his alibi by calling his mother and brother liars, cajoling witnesses to change their evidence to suit a guilt narrative, and simply making
up (the alleged burning of the parka, etc.).
This is way beyond being an understandable mistake.
Maybe that puts him on the list of suspects, but it shouldn't cause an instant 100% concentration on him as the only suspect to the point where they simply ignored about half a dozen people with, realistically, more evidence against them, didn't collect any forensics, and left them to destroy any evidence at their leisure.
Then when it turned out that Mitchell had an alibi and the forensics came back with nothing to implicate him (when he should have been all over the crime scene if he'd done it) all they were left with was to discredit his alibi by calling his mother and brother liars, cajoling witnesses to change their evidence to suit a guilt narrative, and simply making
up (the alleged burning of the parka, etc.).This is way beyond being an understandable mistake.
Chris_Halkides
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round up of some news stories
I found some articles from the last few weeks.
On 13 November 2022 The Edinburgh Evening News reported, "Convicted killer Luke Mitchell is plotting another freedom bid, with his legal team set to hand a petition with over 25,000 signatures into the Scottish Parliament on Wednesday (November 16)."
"They [Scott Forbes and Sandra Lean] handed in two brown envelopes that contained the petition to MSPs including Scottish Conservative justice spokesman Russell Findlay, First Minister Nicola Sturgeon as well as Lord Advocate Dorothy Bain." Scottish Daily Express
A knife was found in a skip about 500 yards from her body. This might be a blind alley, but one person who saw the knife thought that it had blood. It sounds worthy of being tested.
""There were about ten officers, some in forensic suits, emptying the skip to try to find the broken tip. I read the brand name on the knife and checked online. I found an exact match, and it was very expensive.” At the time, a field next to Tom’s garage was used by teenage mechanic apprentices for racing stock cars. One of them, now a dad in his mid-30s, said: “We found a knife with blood on it in the skip. We were like, ‘What the *******.’ It was terrible.”" EdinburghLive
I agree with Rolfe; there was nothing to tie Mr. Mitchell to the crime at the time more than anyone else from the search party. I don't see how there would have been time for him to clean himself up.
I found some articles from the last few weeks.
On 13 November 2022 The Edinburgh Evening News reported, "Convicted killer Luke Mitchell is plotting another freedom bid, with his legal team set to hand a petition with over 25,000 signatures into the Scottish Parliament on Wednesday (November 16)."
"They [Scott Forbes and Sandra Lean] handed in two brown envelopes that contained the petition to MSPs including Scottish Conservative justice spokesman Russell Findlay, First Minister Nicola Sturgeon as well as Lord Advocate Dorothy Bain." Scottish Daily Express
A knife was found in a skip about 500 yards from her body. This might be a blind alley, but one person who saw the knife thought that it had blood. It sounds worthy of being tested.
""There were about ten officers, some in forensic suits, emptying the skip to try to find the broken tip. I read the brand name on the knife and checked online. I found an exact match, and it was very expensive.” At the time, a field next to Tom’s garage was used by teenage mechanic apprentices for racing stock cars. One of them, now a dad in his mid-30s, said: “We found a knife with blood on it in the skip. We were like, ‘What the *******.’ It was terrible.”" EdinburghLive
I agree with Rolfe; there was nothing to tie Mr. Mitchell to the crime at the time more than anyone else from the search party. I don't see how there would have been time for him to clean himself up.
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Nessie
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Careers are made by solving murders quickly and cheaply. Many senior cops own their rank to doing just that. No senior cop has made a career out of correcting other's mistakes.
Nessie
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There was absolutely no reason at all to think it was him at the beginning, other than that he was one of the group of searchers who found the body and he was her boyfriend.
Maybe that puts him on the list of suspects, but it shouldn't cause an instant 100% concentration on him as the only suspect to the point where they simply ignored about half a dozen people with, realistically, more evidence against them, didn't collect any forensics, and left them to destroy any evidence at their leisure.
Then when it turned out that Mitchell had an alibi and the forensics came back with nothing to implicate him (when he should have been all over the crime scene if he'd done it) all they were left with was to discredit his alibi by calling his mother and brother liars, cajoling witnesses to change their evidence to suit a guilt narrative, and simply making
This is way beyond being an understandable mistake.
Has this possibility been examined? A recent news story about a likely Bible John suspect being ignored because he was the cousin of a police officer.
https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/bible-john-cover-up-claims-28648377
"They claimed prime suspect John Irvine McInnes was ignored by police chief Joe Beattie as he was the cousin of his close friend and fellow cop James McInnes. At the time, Beattie was in charge of the Bible John probe at Partick police office..."
Senior cops, especially those involved in professional standards, see their role as protecting the reputation of the job, which is why they will cover up corruption & scandal. Is there a possible cover up to protect reputation?
Rolfe
Adult human female
There are various hints in Sandra's book about possible suspects being ignored and even shielded from investigation because of some connection to the police, including perhaps being police informers
There's no shortage of possible suspects in this case. What there is a shortage of is any actual investigation of any of these people
Chris_Halkides
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Disclosure of DNA information in Scotland
"But since the formation of the Scottish Police Authority and single force in 2013, defence briefs have been banned from seeing the cops’ secret forensics files. It means scientific police evidence — including DNA samples — must be accepted as fact without scrutiny. Scotland is the only country in the civilised world where lawyers are denied access to this key evidence." Allan Jamieson said, "If the files were disclosed we would be able to reassure everyone, including the defendant, that there is nothing untoward about what’s happened to the evidence against them." Scottish Sun.
I may have posted this before, but it continues to gnaw at me, perhaps because of the Knox/Sollecito case.
"But since the formation of the Scottish Police Authority and single force in 2013, defence briefs have been banned from seeing the cops’ secret forensics files. It means scientific police evidence — including DNA samples — must be accepted as fact without scrutiny. Scotland is the only country in the civilised world where lawyers are denied access to this key evidence." Allan Jamieson said, "If the files were disclosed we would be able to reassure everyone, including the defendant, that there is nothing untoward about what’s happened to the evidence against them." Scottish Sun.
I may have posted this before, but it continues to gnaw at me, perhaps because of the Knox/Sollecito case.
Rolfe
Adult human female
This place is a justice hellhole.
Chris_Halkides
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Possible secondary crime scene
"‘The body wasn’t covered so it was open to the elements overnight,' [John] Sallens said. 'The amount of evidence you can get from a crime scene if handled properly is incredible. It would have been a bloodbath, the injuries were horrendous.
'We think she was murdered elsewhere and dragged there. The person who murdered her would have been covered in blood.'" Daily Mail. This article also appeared in the Scottish Sun.
EDT
I am going to quote two paragraphs (pp. 134-135) from Scott Forbes' book A Long Walk to Justice: "Professor Busuttil, however, was sure of one thing, Jodi Jones would have lost at least six litres of blood, but there was NO 'blood spill' under her body or at the immediate locus, no photographs of the blood-soaked ground, the blood spray that was the locus was not "arterial spray" and did not reflect that of the blood lost. There were no soil reports or samples taken.
"There is no trace of the six litres of blood. There are a few drops of blood on branches lying on the floor and the 'spray' on the wall is approximately four meters away from where Jodi was found lying, approximately 500 mm off the ground is a 'spray' approximately 800 mm wide with the largest area of "spray" being 40 mm x 300 mm, along with some smaller spots of blood. Considering the injuries to Jodi Jones, pre and post death, the scene should have been covered in blood. Many professional people believe that Jodi was not murdered where she was found, as a result of the lack of blood."
"‘The body wasn’t covered so it was open to the elements overnight,' [John] Sallens said. 'The amount of evidence you can get from a crime scene if handled properly is incredible. It would have been a bloodbath, the injuries were horrendous.
'We think she was murdered elsewhere and dragged there. The person who murdered her would have been covered in blood.'" Daily Mail. This article also appeared in the Scottish Sun.
EDT
I am going to quote two paragraphs (pp. 134-135) from Scott Forbes' book A Long Walk to Justice: "Professor Busuttil, however, was sure of one thing, Jodi Jones would have lost at least six litres of blood, but there was NO 'blood spill' under her body or at the immediate locus, no photographs of the blood-soaked ground, the blood spray that was the locus was not "arterial spray" and did not reflect that of the blood lost. There were no soil reports or samples taken.
"There is no trace of the six litres of blood. There are a few drops of blood on branches lying on the floor and the 'spray' on the wall is approximately four meters away from where Jodi was found lying, approximately 500 mm off the ground is a 'spray' approximately 800 mm wide with the largest area of "spray" being 40 mm x 300 mm, along with some smaller spots of blood. Considering the injuries to Jodi Jones, pre and post death, the scene should have been covered in blood. Many professional people believe that Jodi was not murdered where she was found, as a result of the lack of blood."
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Rolfe
Adult human female
I'm just wondering how the blood spray that was there got there if she was dead before she was moved to the wood, though.
Oh, and remind me how they then decided that Luke Mitchell, who didn't have a spot of blood on him and who had not showered, managed to be the murderer?
Oh, and remind me how they then decided that Luke Mitchell, who didn't have a spot of blood on him and who had not showered, managed to be the murderer?
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Chris_Halkides
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Professor Busuttil's comments at the BBC
Let us imagine that Luke committed this crime at the time and place that the police alleged. Where would he have cleaned himself without being seen? If he and his clothing were not covered in blood, why burn the putative parka? If it were, would someone not have seen this as he returned to his home? I am having a very tough time making the police theory work.
I think you are certainly asking the right questions. With respect to the first question, blood spatter is outside of my areas of knowledge, and even an expert can only say so much without good documentation of one sort or another. With respect to the second question, let me quote from Forbes's book again, although I have seen this information elsewhere. "Professor Busuttil did admit later, while on the BBC, that it would be highly unlikely that the killer of Jodi could inflict such injuries and not be covered in blood." (emphasis in original) Given my present state of knowledge, both the hypothesis that she was killed where her body was found and the hypothesis that she was killed elsewhere have drawbacks. I also think that six liters of blood sounds a little on the high side, based on a quick survey of how much blood is in the average female human body, not that it would make much difference to the argument if the amount were actually 4-5 liters.
Let us imagine that Luke committed this crime at the time and place that the police alleged. Where would he have cleaned himself without being seen? If he and his clothing were not covered in blood, why burn the putative parka? If it were, would someone not have seen this as he returned to his home? I am having a very tough time making the police theory work.
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Rolfe
Adult human female
The police theory doesn't work. No way at all. They got that conviction on the back of lurid tabloid headlines denouncing the "cold-eyed killer" and an assumption that if the cops say it happened that must be what happened.
Chris_Halkides
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Postconviction DNA or fingerprint database searching
I have just finished my third reading of Sandra Lean’s book, in which she also mentions the case of Sean Toal, and I am inclined to agree.
Many US states have postconviction DNA database searching, and a few states (about seven out of fifty, I believe) have postconviction fingerprint database searching, a topic I touched upon here. I did a quick Google search for postconviction testing in Scotland, but did not locate anything. If it is not in place already, an ability to obtain database searching would be a useful reform.
EDT
Naturally I am thinking of unknown profiles in the Mitchell case. At the top my message is a link to an overview of postconviction DNA testing in the United States.
http://https://www.ncsl.org/Documents/cj/PostConvictionDNATesting.pdf
I have just finished my third reading of Sandra Lean’s book, in which she also mentions the case of Sean Toal, and I am inclined to agree.
Many US states have postconviction DNA database searching, and a few states (about seven out of fifty, I believe) have postconviction fingerprint database searching, a topic I touched upon here. I did a quick Google search for postconviction testing in Scotland, but did not locate anything. If it is not in place already, an ability to obtain database searching would be a useful reform.
EDT
Naturally I am thinking of unknown profiles in the Mitchell case. At the top my message is a link to an overview of postconviction DNA testing in the United States.
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Chris_Halkides
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two stains on the wall
Gordon McIlwraith reported, "When he got there, her body had been moved from the original position and her clothing gathered together. Mr Scrimger said there were two areas of bloodstaining on the wall near where her body was found. One could have been caused by Jodi or her bloodstained attacker falling or brushing against the wall. The second area was lower and was consistent with blood spraying from a severed artery. Advocate depute Alan Turnbull, QC, said: 'Does that suggest that if the young girl's throat was cut in the area near to the wall, she must have been near to the ground when that happened?'
Mr Scrimger: 'Given the angles the way the blood hit the wall, either kneeling or sitting.' Mr Turnbull: 'If the assailant was behind her when the young girl was low down at the wall and her throat was cut several times, is it conceivable she has collapsed on to the wall and down to the ground as the artery has been severed?'
Mr Scrimger: 'It is one possibility.'"
My interpretation is that the first stain might have arisen in a number of ways and might have been created after Jodi was dead. Naturally one wishes to know what else besides arterial spray, if anything, would be "consistent" with the second stain. The answer may be that nothing is, but I am not certain.
Gordon McIlwraith reported, "When he got there, her body had been moved from the original position and her clothing gathered together. Mr Scrimger said there were two areas of bloodstaining on the wall near where her body was found. One could have been caused by Jodi or her bloodstained attacker falling or brushing against the wall. The second area was lower and was consistent with blood spraying from a severed artery. Advocate depute Alan Turnbull, QC, said: 'Does that suggest that if the young girl's throat was cut in the area near to the wall, she must have been near to the ground when that happened?'
Mr Scrimger: 'Given the angles the way the blood hit the wall, either kneeling or sitting.' Mr Turnbull: 'If the assailant was behind her when the young girl was low down at the wall and her throat was cut several times, is it conceivable she has collapsed on to the wall and down to the ground as the artery has been severed?'
Mr Scrimger: 'It is one possibility.'"
My interpretation is that the first stain might have arisen in a number of ways and might have been created after Jodi was dead. Naturally one wishes to know what else besides arterial spray, if anything, would be "consistent" with the second stain. The answer may be that nothing is, but I am not certain.
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Chris_Halkides
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a discrepancy regarding the time of the transaction
On page 121 of Innocents Betrayed, Sandra Lean indicated that the supermarket till receipt for Andrina Bryson had the time of 16:45 and 23 seconds versus 16:32 and 45 seconds according to the bank. The prosecution claimed that the supermarket time was wrong, but it is not clear to me that they produced evidence to that effect. This discrepancy was previously noted in comment #43.
On page 121 of Innocents Betrayed, Sandra Lean indicated that the supermarket till receipt for Andrina Bryson had the time of 16:45 and 23 seconds versus 16:32 and 45 seconds according to the bank. The prosecution claimed that the supermarket time was wrong, but it is not clear to me that they produced evidence to that effect. This discrepancy was previously noted in comment #43.
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Chris_Halkides
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retrospective study of DNA transfer in homicides
Nurit B et al., "Evaluating the prevalence of DNA mixtures found in fingernail samples from victims and suspects in homicide cases" Forensic Science International: Genetics 5 (2011) 532–537.
These authors wrote, “In contrast to daily activity, violent crimes can often be associated with intense physical contact between victim and perpetrator, due to struggling at the scene of the crime. The assumed struggle is expected to facilitate the transference of biological materials between two (or more), individuals [1–7]...Suspects may also be sampled if their arrest takes place a short time after the assault, usually, within 24 h.” Of 37 suspect samples 32 were single profiles and 5 were mixed samples (13.5%). In another study (Cook O. and Dixon L, "The prevalence of mixed DNA profiles in fingernail samples taken from individuals in the general population, Forensic Sci. Int. Genet. 1 (2007) 62–68.) 6% of the samples from volunteers in the general population were mixtures.
Upon first examination, there is modest probative value in the lack of DNA underneath Mr. Mitchell's fingernails. The interval between a likely time of death and the time of sampling may have been different in this instance from the average in the cases studied by Nurit and colleagues. Mr. Mitchell's appearance did not suggest that he had washed recently, which is another factor to consider.
The prevalence of mixtures among homicide victims was 25% in this study. That is one reason why fingernails of both hands should always be tested. If memory serves me correctly, one hand yield no reportable results, but it is unclear whether or not the other hand was tested.
Nurit B et al., "Evaluating the prevalence of DNA mixtures found in fingernail samples from victims and suspects in homicide cases" Forensic Science International: Genetics 5 (2011) 532–537.
These authors wrote, “In contrast to daily activity, violent crimes can often be associated with intense physical contact between victim and perpetrator, due to struggling at the scene of the crime. The assumed struggle is expected to facilitate the transference of biological materials between two (or more), individuals [1–7]...Suspects may also be sampled if their arrest takes place a short time after the assault, usually, within 24 h.” Of 37 suspect samples 32 were single profiles and 5 were mixed samples (13.5%). In another study (Cook O. and Dixon L, "The prevalence of mixed DNA profiles in fingernail samples taken from individuals in the general population, Forensic Sci. Int. Genet. 1 (2007) 62–68.) 6% of the samples from volunteers in the general population were mixtures.
Upon first examination, there is modest probative value in the lack of DNA underneath Mr. Mitchell's fingernails. The interval between a likely time of death and the time of sampling may have been different in this instance from the average in the cases studied by Nurit and colleagues. Mr. Mitchell's appearance did not suggest that he had washed recently, which is another factor to consider.
The prevalence of mixtures among homicide victims was 25% in this study. That is one reason why fingernails of both hands should always be tested. If memory serves me correctly, one hand yield no reportable results, but it is unclear whether or not the other hand was tested.
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Chris_Halkides
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An essay called "No Remorse"
"Officers from Lothian and Borders Police are said to have hidden two copies of an essay written by a now-deceased local drug addict in Dalkeith, Midlothian, that described killing a girl in the woods.
A police insider told Mitchell's legal team that the Scottish Criminal Case Review Commission found the essays in police production in a brown envelope in 2013." Scottish Daily Express
"Lawyer Scott Forbes of Mitchell’s legal team told the Scottish Daily Express: 'The police insider who gave me the destruction of evidence tip-off also showed me the essays. They went to the appeal court and police said no such essays existed. Just lies.'"
From a 13 February 2008 article in The Scotsman: ""He* indicated Kane had written an essay, Killing a girl in the woods. The Crown had police take a statement from a lecturer and the lecturer confirmed that Kane wrote no such essay. I have information that Scott Forbes told Mark Kane, 'Just admit it … we will get 50,000 from the newspapers'," Mr Beckett said."
John Beckett is an advocate depute. My point in bringing this up is that the crown argued that there was no such essay; they did not say that the lecturer did not recall reading it, which is not as strong a statement. They essay itself may or may not have probative value, but concealing its existence is...something that I have come to expect from the people who worked on this case. Regarding the "information" to which Mr. Beckett alluded, it may have come from Mr. Kane himself. The notion that Mr. Forbes suggested that Mr. Kane admit to the crime for money from a newspaper is one of the more absurd stories that has been put forward in this case, which says a great deal.
EDT
*The "he" in this paragraph is a little ambiguous, but I think it refers to Mr. Forbes. It is possible that Mr. Kane wrote this essay in response to this murder, in which case it would not be probative.
"Officers from Lothian and Borders Police are said to have hidden two copies of an essay written by a now-deceased local drug addict in Dalkeith, Midlothian, that described killing a girl in the woods.
A police insider told Mitchell's legal team that the Scottish Criminal Case Review Commission found the essays in police production in a brown envelope in 2013." Scottish Daily Express
"Lawyer Scott Forbes of Mitchell’s legal team told the Scottish Daily Express: 'The police insider who gave me the destruction of evidence tip-off also showed me the essays. They went to the appeal court and police said no such essays existed. Just lies.'"
From a 13 February 2008 article in The Scotsman: ""He* indicated Kane had written an essay, Killing a girl in the woods. The Crown had police take a statement from a lecturer and the lecturer confirmed that Kane wrote no such essay. I have information that Scott Forbes told Mark Kane, 'Just admit it … we will get 50,000 from the newspapers'," Mr Beckett said."
John Beckett is an advocate depute. My point in bringing this up is that the crown argued that there was no such essay; they did not say that the lecturer did not recall reading it, which is not as strong a statement. They essay itself may or may not have probative value, but concealing its existence is...something that I have come to expect from the people who worked on this case. Regarding the "information" to which Mr. Beckett alluded, it may have come from Mr. Kane himself. The notion that Mr. Forbes suggested that Mr. Kane admit to the crime for money from a newspaper is one of the more absurd stories that has been put forward in this case, which says a great deal.
EDT
*The "he" in this paragraph is a little ambiguous, but I think it refers to Mr. Forbes. It is possible that Mr. Kane wrote this essay in response to this murder, in which case it would not be probative.
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Chris_Halkides
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blood nearby
"The official claim that Jodi was murdered where her body was found, raises the question of how all those branches, scattered for some distance around the woodland strip, became bloodstained, but Luke did not." (p. 210)
"It could argued that the rain washed away blood from the body, but it would be remarkable if these areas retained so many short colorless hair after being washed by rainwater." (p. 213)
"Furthermore, there was apparently no pooled blood in the soil directly under where Jodi's body was found, nor evidence that such pooled blood had soaked into the ground. (p. 213)
All of these quotes are from the book Innocents Betrayed.
"The official claim that Jodi was murdered where her body was found, raises the question of how all those branches, scattered for some distance around the woodland strip, became bloodstained, but Luke did not." (p. 210)
"It could argued that the rain washed away blood from the body, but it would be remarkable if these areas retained so many short colorless hair after being washed by rainwater." (p. 213)
"Furthermore, there was apparently no pooled blood in the soil directly under where Jodi's body was found, nor evidence that such pooled blood had soaked into the ground. (p. 213)
All of these quotes are from the book Innocents Betrayed.
Rolfe
Adult human female
Have a look at this.
A good explanation of how that blood came to be where it was.
A good explanation of how that blood came to be where it was.
Chris_Halkides
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Fivo
Thank you; I will have to watch this twice. BTW I caught something about a street sign being on Ms. Bryson's left in her statement.
Thank you; I will have to watch this twice. BTW I caught something about a street sign being on Ms. Bryson's left in her statement.
Chris_Halkides
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open ended sentence
From the Daily Record, "Mitchell is facing an open-ended sentence due to the fact he remains adamant that he did not kill Jodi, his girlfriend at the time." I also found this: "To date, the longest punishment part given in Scotland is 37 years. If a person sentenced to life imprisonment is released into the community, they will be on licence for the rest of their life and can be recalled to prison if they breach the terms of their licence."
If Mr. Mitchell never admits to this crime, how long would his incarceration last?
From the Daily Record, "Mitchell is facing an open-ended sentence due to the fact he remains adamant that he did not kill Jodi, his girlfriend at the time." I also found this: "To date, the longest punishment part given in Scotland is 37 years. If a person sentenced to life imprisonment is released into the community, they will be on licence for the rest of their life and can be recalled to prison if they breach the terms of their licence."
If Mr. Mitchell never admits to this crime, how long would his incarceration last?
Chris_Halkides
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Todd Grande
Dr. Todd Grande is a counselor with a large YouTube following. His analysis of the Mitchell case is here. He takes the prosecution's assertions at almost face value. Near the end he brings up Casey Anthony and O J Simpson, as people found not guilty but whom people believe committed a crime. This is the first time I have encountered one of his analyses; on the one hand, I don't want to draw final conclusions about Dr. Grande, but on the other hand, I was quite unimpressed with this video.
Dr. Todd Grande is a counselor with a large YouTube following. His analysis of the Mitchell case is here. He takes the prosecution's assertions at almost face value. Near the end he brings up Casey Anthony and O J Simpson, as people found not guilty but whom people believe committed a crime. This is the first time I have encountered one of his analyses; on the one hand, I don't want to draw final conclusions about Dr. Grande, but on the other hand, I was quite unimpressed with this video.
SpitfireIX
Philosopher
I've watched several of his videos. In my inexpert opinion, his analyses seem reasonable when he sticks to psychological factors. Where he runs into trouble is when he tries to analyze cases based on other evidence, as he does here.
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Through the Wall podcast
A six-part podcast from Naomi Channell called "Through the Wall: The Case Against Luke Mitchell" was released in January. I have just started listening to it, and it is slow to get going. But I will give Episode 4 a try, because the crime scene is discussed.
A six-part podcast from Naomi Channell called "Through the Wall: The Case Against Luke Mitchell" was released in January. I have just started listening to it, and it is slow to get going. But I will give Episode 4 a try, because the crime scene is discussed.
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Chris_Halkides
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more on the podcast
I am increasingly impressed with this podcast, in that there is little fluff and complete lack of sensationalism. Early in Episode 2, it is reported that Corinne noticed that the cassette tape of Luke's initial interview was labeled "suspect." The failure of Alistair, the adult that was supposed to look out for Luke's interest during the August interrogation, is also highlighted. I disagree with the notion that a partial profile corresponding to Luke's DNA was found on Jodi's bra, for reasons I have previously given. She does not drill down into Ms. Bryson's sighting quite as much as it possible, but the overall inconsistency in the various witness accounts is well presented. Sandra Lean (Ep. 6) talks about the Cadder hearing and the appeal's being turned down.
I am increasingly impressed with this podcast, in that there is little fluff and complete lack of sensationalism. Early in Episode 2, it is reported that Corinne noticed that the cassette tape of Luke's initial interview was labeled "suspect." The failure of Alistair, the adult that was supposed to look out for Luke's interest during the August interrogation, is also highlighted. I disagree with the notion that a partial profile corresponding to Luke's DNA was found on Jodi's bra, for reasons I have previously given. She does not drill down into Ms. Bryson's sighting quite as much as it possible, but the overall inconsistency in the various witness accounts is well presented. Sandra Lean (Ep. 6) talks about the Cadder hearing and the appeal's being turned down.
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This is odd. Normal human blood volume is 5 litres. One would not expect complete exsanguination, even with massive bleeding blood loss would be less than 5 litres.
Perhaps he meant 6 pints?
Chris_Halkides
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luminol and blood in soil
There are passages from Mr. Forbes' book that treat the question of what might have been done to Jodi's body after she was murdered and why, but I don't feel up to the task of summarizing these passages without rereading them. For now I would say that this issue is one which makes me think that Jodi might have been murdered elsewhere, and her body moved.
I have seen other estimates that the loss was five liters, but supposing that she lost three or four liters of blood, it would not substantially alter the question of what happened to it. It could be argued that the rain washed the blood away, but that is unlikely to have made it undetectable by presumptive testing. One study showed that luminol was able to detect 0.5 liters of blood that had been poured into soil eight years previously. The authors of this study noted, "Annual precipitation between October 2010 and October 2012 was approximately 35 in (90 cm)."
There are passages from Mr. Forbes' book that treat the question of what might have been done to Jodi's body after she was murdered and why, but I don't feel up to the task of summarizing these passages without rereading them. For now I would say that this issue is one which makes me think that Jodi might have been murdered elsewhere, and her body moved.
I have seen other estimates that the loss was five liters, but supposing that she lost three or four liters of blood, it would not substantially alter the question of what happened to it. It could be argued that the rain washed the blood away, but that is unlikely to have made it undetectable by presumptive testing. One study showed that luminol was able to detect 0.5 liters of blood that had been poured into soil eight years previously. The authors of this study noted, "Annual precipitation between October 2010 and October 2012 was approximately 35 in (90 cm)."
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Chris_Halkides
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rethinking differential extraction
I previously overlooked Rolfe's point made a few comments further into the thread, which is that differential extraction is typically done on mixed vaginal samples. Therefore, I am less certain that my explanation for the peculiarly labeled results is correct.
Chris_Halkides
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In Luke's Own Words
I am listening to the last episode of the podcast, in which Luke describes the astonishing roadblocks to his progression toward release. Luke strikes me as intelligent and articulate. Words fail me in trying to describe his recent situation. Scotland ought to be ashamed.
I am listening to the last episode of the podcast, in which Luke describes the astonishing roadblocks to his progression toward release. Luke strikes me as intelligent and articulate. Words fail me in trying to describe his recent situation. Scotland ought to be ashamed.
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Without yet listening to this, I would note that in a similar country, there is no chance to ever hear the voice of the convict.
Nessie
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https://www.scottishdailyexpress.co.uk/news/scottish-news/dna-samples-jodi-jones-never-29553128
News story today about 10 samples that were taken from Jodi Jones body that were never tested.
News story today about 10 samples that were taken from Jodi Jones body that were never tested.
Chris_Halkides
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source vs. sub-source DNA
"he paper claims at least 10 samples of bodily fluids swabbed from different parts of Jodi's body were sent for forensic tests that were never carried out... It is understood the samples, recovered from various parts of Jodi's body, were confirmed as having the presence of bodily fluids...Aided by the Crown, the police gathered over 3,000 productions with permission to destroy all items not on the indictment and therefore hidden from defence."
DNA from which the source can be determined is more probative than sub-source DNA. Nothing astonishes me in the case any longer. But this case ought to be the impetus for reform: open discovery, in which the prosecution makes everything available to the defense, should be the norm.
EDT
From the Scottish Sun, "The stored forensic items include at least 10 swab samples taken from Jodi's face, hands, breasts and back - the places confirmed as having the presence of bodily fluids."
"he paper claims at least 10 samples of bodily fluids swabbed from different parts of Jodi's body were sent for forensic tests that were never carried out... It is understood the samples, recovered from various parts of Jodi's body, were confirmed as having the presence of bodily fluids...Aided by the Crown, the police gathered over 3,000 productions with permission to destroy all items not on the indictment and therefore hidden from defence."
DNA from which the source can be determined is more probative than sub-source DNA. Nothing astonishes me in the case any longer. But this case ought to be the impetus for reform: open discovery, in which the prosecution makes everything available to the defense, should be the norm.
EDT
From the Scottish Sun, "The stored forensic items include at least 10 swab samples taken from Jodi's face, hands, breasts and back - the places confirmed as having the presence of bodily fluids."
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Chris_Halkides
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another body fluid
Brendan McGinty wrote, "DETECTIVES hunting the killer of Jodi Jones have found DNA at the murder scene different from her boyfriend Luke Mitchell's. The first genetic fingerprint is a trace of saliva found close to where Jodi was killed in Easthouses, near Dalkeith. The second is another body fluid capable of providing a breakthrough. In the early stages of the inquiry, detectives said Jodi may have disturbed her killer committing a sex act. The two samples are not the only DNA clues found near the spot where 14-year-old Jodi's body was found, close to a path popular with joggers and people walking dogs. But the clues may take the investigation in a new direction. Detectives have always played down speculation that more than one person was involved in Jodi's murder. Tests have revealed that the two samples are not from the same person. They have also eliminated Luke, 15, as a possible source. The Sunday Mail can reveal that the samples were the reason joggers were asked to provide DNA samples last week."
He continued, "Detectives are still hunting a stocky man seen carrying a rucksack and following Jodi on the day of her death. Because the murder scene was on a well used path, scientists have warned detectives leading the investigation that DNA samples found may prove to be red herrings."
But what if the murder scene were not on this well-used path? Then the samples might take on more significance. The last sentence also ignores that DNA with a known source is more probative than DNA that does not have an identified source. Caveat: one must be aware of the association fallacy.
Brendan McGinty wrote, "DETECTIVES hunting the killer of Jodi Jones have found DNA at the murder scene different from her boyfriend Luke Mitchell's. The first genetic fingerprint is a trace of saliva found close to where Jodi was killed in Easthouses, near Dalkeith. The second is another body fluid capable of providing a breakthrough. In the early stages of the inquiry, detectives said Jodi may have disturbed her killer committing a sex act. The two samples are not the only DNA clues found near the spot where 14-year-old Jodi's body was found, close to a path popular with joggers and people walking dogs. But the clues may take the investigation in a new direction. Detectives have always played down speculation that more than one person was involved in Jodi's murder. Tests have revealed that the two samples are not from the same person. They have also eliminated Luke, 15, as a possible source. The Sunday Mail can reveal that the samples were the reason joggers were asked to provide DNA samples last week."
He continued, "Detectives are still hunting a stocky man seen carrying a rucksack and following Jodi on the day of her death. Because the murder scene was on a well used path, scientists have warned detectives leading the investigation that DNA samples found may prove to be red herrings."
But what if the murder scene were not on this well-used path? Then the samples might take on more significance. The last sentence also ignores that DNA with a known source is more probative than DNA that does not have an identified source. Caveat: one must be aware of the association fallacy.
Chris_Halkides
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David Wilson weighs in
"The emeritus professor of criminology at Birmingham City University [Professor David Wilson] concedes his knowledge of the case is limited to transcripts from court, newspapers, TV shows and podcasts.
But he said: "...even accepting that I could not access all of the materials I would have wanted, there is literally nothing - nothing - I could uncover that warranted Luke even being charged with Jodi's murder, never mind being sent to trial."" Edinburgh Live.
"The emeritus professor of criminology at Birmingham City University [Professor David Wilson] concedes his knowledge of the case is limited to transcripts from court, newspapers, TV shows and podcasts.
But he said: "...even accepting that I could not access all of the materials I would have wanted, there is literally nothing - nothing - I could uncover that warranted Luke even being charged with Jodi's murder, never mind being sent to trial."" Edinburgh Live.
Nessie
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Every production store I was ever in, was a mess and in chaos, and it is amazing more evidence is not lost, damaged or destroyed. If anyone was taken to task, they will just claim mistakes.