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Largest ever miscarriage of justice?

Orphia Nay said:
Senior Post Office lawyer Jarnail Singh tells big fat lie.

https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c1d4j5m3l08o.amp
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Mr Beer showed evidence suggesting Mr Singh had saved an attachment about Horizon discrepancies to his hard drive, and printed it off on 8 October 2010.

"I don't recall seeing it, I don't recall printing it," Mr Singh said.

When asked whether it was saved on the hard drive of his computer, Mr Singh said: "I don't even know what you're talking about.

"I don't know how these things worked."

"You don't know how to save a document?" Mr Beer asked.

"I didn't know how to do it," Mr Singh responded, saying he wouldn't have had the technical knowledge either to do that or to understand the document itself.

"I don't remember this document at all, or the email," he added.

Mr Beer said Mr Singh was engaged in "blind denial" because "this is evidence of your own guilty knowledge".

Mr Singh replied: "That is not true, and I don't feel guilty, because I haven't received it, because if I did, I would have dealt with it.

"I don't recaIl receiving it, or reading it, or printing it - that is my evidence on oath."​


WTF? A lawyer, in the 21st century, doesn't know how to save an attachment and print a document?
Holy Shamoley... really? He truly expects that anyone is going believe this?
 
Law Gazette blog on yesterday

2.35pm: A major revelation and one of Singh's most uncomfortable moments so far. The inquiry sees an email chain where Post Office leaders are discussing whether to disclose investigators' reports as part of the mediation process in 2014.

Singh says that in relation to the former sub-postmistress Jo Hamilton (pictured below), he had no doubt that disclosure would have been an 'extremely dangerous approach'. Hamilton was fighting to clear her name and clearly, suggests Beer, would have benefitted from knowing there were deficiencies in the case against her.

The solicitor tells the inquiry he had not even read the Hamilton file when he wrote this email. This prompts Beer and chair Sir Wyn Williams to ask incredulously how he could possibly have quoted directly from it if he had not read.

Singh takes long pauses as he tries to explain what was happening. He says this email was just him 'weighing' up the arguments over disclosure of investigators' reports.

Beer says this is proof of a cover-up, which Singh denies.
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Here
 
smartcooky said:
Mr Beer showed evidence suggesting Mr Singh had saved an attachment about Horizon discrepancies to his hard drive, and printed it off on 8 October 2010.

"I don't recall seeing it, I don't recall printing it," Mr Singh said.

When asked whether it was saved on the hard drive of his computer, Mr Singh said: "I don't even know what you're talking about.

"I don't know how these things worked."

"You don't know how to save a document?" Mr Beer asked.

"I didn't know how to do it," Mr Singh responded, saying he wouldn't have had the technical knowledge either to do that or to understand the document itself.

"I don't remember this document at all, or the email," he added.

Mr Beer said Mr Singh was engaged in "blind denial" because "this is evidence of your own guilty knowledge".

Mr Singh replied: "That is not true, and I don't feel guilty, because I haven't received it, because if I did, I would have dealt with it.

"I don't recaIl receiving it, or reading it, or printing it - that is my evidence on oath."​


WTF? A lawyer, in the 21st century, doesn't know how to save an attachment and print a document?
Holy Shamoley... really? He truly expects that anyone is going believe this?
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Slightly longer video on Twitter

https://x.com/ruddick/status/1786346584122216492

Even more painful than the transcript
 
Well, just because the computer shows the lawyer received the email and read the email and printed the email and wrote a response quoting the email, we have to consider it might just be the computer that made a mistake. Computers aren't flawless, you know. [/sarcasm]
 
Jack by the hedge said:
Well, just because the computer shows the lawyer received the email and read the email and printed the email and wrote a response quoting the email, we have to consider it might just be the computer that made a mistake. Computers aren't flawless, you know. [/sarcasm]
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Beautiful
 
Jack by the hedge said:
Well, just because the computer shows the lawyer received the email and read the email and printed the email and wrote a response quoting the email, we have to consider it might just be the computer that made a mistake. Computers aren't flawless, you know. [/sarcasm]
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I take your point, but does the computer show that the lawyer did or that, or simply someone with access to his account? (And I don't think replying to it was alleged.)
 
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Filippo Lippi said:
Law Gazette blog on yesterday



Here
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Jarnal Singh is such a liar!

From that blog:

2.10pm: Here we go again, then. Beer takes Singh to an email he sent to a colleague in which he referred to cases where it is 'immediately apparent that criminal investigation should be commenced with view to prosecution to protect POL brand and reputation and in the interest of the business'.

Beer asks whether brand protection was a message he wanted to emphasise. Singh says not him personally.

Beer then shows another Singh email, this time to executive director Angela van den Bogerd, in which he says the Post Office needs to investigate 'with a view to potential prosecution to protect POL brand and reputation and for business purposes'.

Beer says the wording is almost identical and asks again if Singh was concerned with reputation management. He says these emails were discussion papers and he wasn't personally trying to protect the Post Office brand.

He’s not trying to protect the Post Office brand when telling people to protect the Post Office brand. :jaw-dropp
 
He was trying to protect the Post Office brand, now he's trying to keep himself out of prison, presumably. Do we know if he's still practising?
 
Filippo Lippi said:
He was trying to protect the Post Office brand, now he's trying to keep himself out of prison, presumably. Do we know if he's still practising?
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Well he certainly needs to improve
[/Deliberate misunderstanding]

I recall seeing that he isn't anymore, so getting struck off would only be a symbolic act
 
Legal advice given to the PO in July 2013, clearly stating that the expert witness Gareth Jenkins is unreliable and failing to disclose evidence. It is referred to as the Clarke Advice, after the lawyer who wrote it;

https://www.postofficescandal.uk/wp-content/uploads/2022/10/Clarke-advice-re-Jenkins.pdf

"In an appropriate case the Court of Appeal will consider whether or not any conviction is
unsafe. In so doing they may well inquire into the reasons for Dr. Jenkins' failure to refer
to the existence of bugs in his expert witness statements and evidence."
 
Nessie said:
Legal advice given to the PO in July 2013, clearly stating that the expert witness Gareth Jenkins is unreliable and failing to disclose evidence. It is referred to as the Clarke Advice, after the lawyer who wrote it;

https://www.postofficescandal.uk/wp-content/uploads/2022/10/Clarke-advice-re-Jenkins.pdf

"In an appropriate case the Court of Appeal will consider whether or not any conviction is
unsafe. In so doing they may well inquire into the reasons for Dr. Jenkins' failure to refer
to the existence of bugs in his expert witness statements and evidence."
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If Jenkins lied under oath, he really should be charged with perjury!
 
jimbob said:
And showing how widespread the culture of cover up in the public sector is,

Records destroyed about the contaminated blood scandal when the prospect of compensation was raised.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...ood-deaths-lawsuit?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Other
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There ought to be a rule of evidence/procedure that if one side has been shown to have destroyed relevant documents, the other side can argue that the documents must have been incriminating, the judge may instruct the jury accordingly, and the side that destroyed the documents cannot object.
 
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smartcooky said:
If Jenkins lied under oath, he really should be charged with perjury!
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That should come, once the Inquiry is finished. They don't like running criminal cases and public inquiries at the same time.
 
steenkh said:
Wouldn’t a testimony from 2013 be barred from prosecution today?
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Why? Are you thinking some kind of statute of limitations?

If so, you should know that under UK Law is there is no general statute of limitations for criminal offenses. There is a limit for some minor offenses, but perjury is not a minor offense - if you give false testimony before a court/under oath, you are liable to prosecution at any later time.
 
smartcooky said:
Why? Are you thinking some kind of statute of limitations?
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Yes. But I had difficulty finding the English expression for this concept.

I believe in Denmark there are very few crimes that are not barred by statutes of limitations. I know that murder can be prosecuted at all times, but I am unsure of perjury.
 
Today's evidence from PO head of communications, Mark Davies, speaks to the extent that management had convinced themselves that Horizon was faultless and they were the victims of a smear campaign by certain journalists. He is a prime example of the management culture of protect the brand, it cannot be found to be flawed.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cq5nnpgywevo
 
It is amazing how all these emails appeared without anyone apparently having asked for them or provided the content, or been responsible for any of it. And of course any suggestion these emails point to some sort of coverup or conspiracy is just ridiculous, at least if you believe the PO witnesses.
 
Nessie said:
Today's evidence from PO head of communications, Mark Davies, speaks to the extent that management had convinced themselves that Horizon was faultless and they were the victims of a smear campaign by certain journalists. He is a prime example of the management culture of protect the brand, it cannot be found to be flawed.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cq5nnpgywevo
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He’s “sorry for not having all the information” about Horizon despite the Second Sight report and the fact that 700 postmasters were being prosecuted for all saying the same thing?

:mad:
 
Garrison said:
It is amazing how all these emails appeared without anyone apparently having asked for them or provided the content, or been responsible for any of it. And of course any suggestion these emails point to some sort of coverup or conspiracy is just ridiculous, at least if you believe the PO witnesses.
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And how many of them never read any of the emails, not even the emails they then go on to quote in emails to other people, other people that also did not read the emails.
 
It is typical management behaviour, when things have gone wrong, they know as little as possible and carry little to no responsibility. They then take full credit, even when no credit is due, for the successes.
 
Nessie said:
It is typical management behaviour, when things have gone wrong, they know as little as possible and carry little to no responsibility. They then take full credit, even when no credit is due, for the successes.
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Success has many fathers. Failure is an orphan.
 
Paula Vennels was aware of one case, involving the alleged theft of £57,000, she even had a meeting with MP Jeremy Hunt, where she insisted sub-postmasters were thieves.

https://x.com/ElCShaikh/status/1792064445570523214

But, in this case, the post office involved was closed during the investigation and on re-opening, another shortfall was recorded of £5000, generated when no one was working there and Horizon was off. That shortfall was just written off. But it is evidence to prove Horizon had faults.

Vennels needs to lend her name to the mindset some investigators get, when they decide on guilt and no amount of contradictory or exculpatroy evidence will shake that belief.
 
Nessie said:
Paula Vennels was aware of one case, involving the alleged theft of £57,000, she even had a meeting with MP Jeremy Hunt, where she insisted sub-postmasters were thieves.

https://x.com/ElCShaikh/status/1792064445570523214

But, in this case, the post office involved was closed during the investigation and on re-opening, another shortfall was recorded of £5000, generated when no one was working there and Horizon was off. That shortfall was just written off. But it is evidence to prove Horizon had faults.
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Wow. This story never ceases to keep shocking me.
 
Vennells week at the inquiry and just before, she dumped a load of documents.

In that story, the CFO is quoted from 2020

"Paula did not believe there had been a miscarriage and could not have got there emotionally.

"She seemed clear in her conviction from the day I joined that nothing had gone wrong and it was very clearly stated in my very first board meeting. She never, in my observation, deviated from that or seemed to particularly doubt that."
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Some people seem to be having difficulty understanding how someone as religious (and therefore, supposedly, virtuous) as Vennells could have reacted to this unfolding scandal in the way she did but I have to say that, as an atheist, that background helps, rather than hinders, my understanding. This is, after all, someone with a history of emotionally investing in an irrational belief that she wants to be true, and steadfastly holding to it regardless of the evidence.

See also: Tony Blair
 
Being religious possibly made her worse, as she would find it hard to accept and be open about mistakes and her duty is to the brand. Look at what churches have covered up.
 
Orphia Nay said:
Wow. This story never ceases to keep shocking me.
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Susan Crichton, former PO general counsel, resigned after being excluded from meetings about the Horizon flaws (after she refused to "manage or manipulate the [information] in the way that Alice Perkins [former chair of the board] was expecting me to")
In meeting notes about Crichton’s departure, Vennells wrote that the lawyer had “put her integrity as a lawyer above the interests of the business”.
:rolleyes:
 
catsmate said:
Susan Crichton, former PO general counsel, resigned after being excluded from meetings about the Horizon flaws (after she refused to "manage or manipulate the [information] in the way that Alice Perkins [former chair of the board] was expecting me to")
In meeting notes about Crichton’s departure, Vennells wrote that the lawyer had “put her integrity as a lawyer above the interests of the business”.
:rolleyes:
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Full quote by Vennells here;

https://x.com/JohnHyde1982/status/1782787104365228199

Clearly, Vennells operated under the belief that it was in the interests of the business to ignore issues with Horizon and to continue prosecutions.

Using the church comparison again, I always found it odd that churches will cover up misconduct, as it is surely in their interests to get rid of criminal priests, vicars etc and be seen to be doing so.
 
What is striking is the similarity in the conduct of those in charge between the Horizon scandal and the contaminated blood scandal. Denial, obfuscation, hiding evidence and a determination to protect institutions even at the cost of people's lives. Oh and of course the profuse apologies when the whole mess finally spills out into the open.
 
Garrison said:
What is striking is the similarity in the conduct of those in charge between the Horizon scandal and the contaminated blood scandal. Denial, obfuscation, hiding evidence and a determination to protect institutions even at the cost of people's lives. Oh and of course the profuse apologies when the whole mess finally spills out into the open.
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Yup.

It's pervasive. See also the nuclear test veterans, or the Porton Down test victims. Or many of the NHS incidents that people like Carrot Flower King has referred to.

jimbob said:
And showing how widespread the culture of cover up in the public sector is,

Records destroyed about the contaminated blood scandal when the prospect of compensation was raised.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...ood-deaths-lawsuit?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Other
Click to expand...
 
Nessie said:
Full quote by Vennells here;

https://x.com/JohnHyde1982/status/1782787104365228199

Clearly, Vennells operated under the belief that it was in the interests of the business to ignore issues with Horizon and to continue prosecutions.

Using the church comparison again, I always found it odd that churches will cover up misconduct, as it is surely in their interests to get rid of criminal priests, vicars etc and be seen to be doing so.
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I see Susan Crichton wished (according to Vennells) that the Second Sight report was never done. So she’s not as innocent as she seems.
 
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