Kim Dotcom

Good points.

I think the reasoning goes like this:
1) People are doing illegal stuff on a site I control
2) I know they are doing it but have structured my site so I can claim "hands off."
3) My profits are directly tied to them doing it.

Now, these elements would have to be proven in court, but if they were, I think a conspiracy to infringe charge would apply.


And I would agree, should those points be proven. Especially #2.

My only problem with the dialogue I've been seeing here is that this seems to be assumed as a given.

I'm not convinced that it should be. I have an uncomfortable feeling that Dotcom is being singled out for 'special' attention, while others in essentially the same business are not having their sincerity or honesty under attack.

Suppose, instead of copyright infringement, we were talking about something more illegal, like kiddie porn. Should I be able to host a website and store child porn on the theory that some parties (most notably law enforcement) have a legal right to store it? Can I safely say "I don't know if it's legal or not," or, should the onus be on me to determine if it is legal in this case?

What if I use a disclaimer: "All child pornography on this site must be legally obtained and stored - we do not check who you give or sell the link to, but we will be taking a fee for downloads. We just assume you are legit until informed otherwise."


Well, aside from the intrinsic 'appeal to emotion' nature of the example I'm not sure that such an exception exists for law enforcement, at least as far as storing evidence in cloud storage. So the issue is somewhat moot.

If it did exist then I see no reason why it should be any different from anything else as far as custodial responsibility is concerned. The proprietor of the storage has no business knowing what is being stored on their site. If they should be made aware of legal transgressions then they should take appropriate action.

As long as they do that then they have done as much as can be reasonably expected.
 
You're saying that if I store my legally acquired copy of some copyrighted material on cloud storage service it becomes the proprietor's responsibility to guard that copyright.

The word store makes that seem OK but when unpacked:

You're saying that if I make an unauthorized copy of my legally acquired copy of some copyrighted material and place it on cloud storage service where others might access it, it does become the proprietor's responsibility to guard that copyright.

it changes the meaning just enough to show it is a potential problem at least under US copyright law.

Copyright law is about the right to make copies, legally obtaining a copy of copyrighted material does not grant one the right to make copies that others can access. The storage system owner is required to remove the illegally copied material as soon as they are notified of the offense. This is what YouTube does and by deleting the original file it automatically invalidates all the links to the material that others have created in other locations.

Not sure if this is only US law or part of the international convention.

While many people disagree with the laws, none the less they are the laws.
 
The word store makes that seem OK but when unpacked:

You're saying that if I make an unauthorized copy of my legally acquired copy of some copyrighted material and place it on cloud storage service where others might access it, it does become the proprietor's responsibility to guard that copyright.

You will, or course, be able to quote chapter, clause and sub-clause, the Law which specifies this?

No? I thought not!

1. I rip a DVD Movie

2. I take the ripped file, and encrypt it, also change the file extension so that even a cursory glance at the file name will not reveal what type of file it is.

3. I upload the encrypted file to Dropbox

4. I email the link along with the decryption key to a number of third parties

5. The third parties download the file, decrypt it and watch the movie.

So, do you believe Dropbox had a "responsibility to guard that copyright"?


I'll give you an example. I have uploaded a file to my Dropbox account, here is a link to it..

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/98915197/JREF/Shahddel.XYZ

I promise it is not an illegal file or a damaging file in any way, its just a personal file of mine that I am willing to share for the purposes of this discussion.

Anyone care to download and work out what this file actually is?

If it had been an illegal or copyright file, who was responsible for illegally distributing it, Dropbox or me?
 
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1. I rip a DVD Movie

2. I take the ripped file, and encrypt it, also change the file extension so that even a cursory glance at the file name will not reveal what type of file it is.

3. I upload the encrypted file to Dropbox

4. I email the link along with the decryption key to a number of third parties

5. The third parties download the file, decrypt it and watch the movie.

So, do you believe Dropbox had a "responsibility to guard that copyright"?

Good example. As you have outlined it, I don't think Dropbox would be liable. So, what would have to be different to make them so?

Well, presumably, both Dropbox and Kimbo's site had language in the MA about not using the site for illegal purposes. What measures do they take to enforce it? To what extent should they have known shenanigans were going on?

My impression is that Dotcom not only knew what was going on, but relied on it to get memberships and make money. My beef is this business of turning a blind eye to it all and claiming to be an innocent third party.

It is often the case that a legal activity (hosting files) moves into the culpable category if one knows it is furthering illegal activity and does nothing about it. I could be renting cheap motel rooms by the hour. I can claim they are being used by the homeless or others in a legal manner. But if there's a constant parade of hookers and johns, at some point a reasonable person is going to know about it.

Do data managers have an obligation to police the use of their services? I think they do. What might indicate nefarious use? Multiple (maybe thousands) of downloads of a file, a user who has been tagged before for copyright violation, mention of a user on an illegal file sharing site, the type of material a user stores (if it isn't encrypted). Did Dotcom ban users who violated the terms or simply remove tainted links?

I don't think it's an excuse to say the volume of data makes it impossible to police - if that's the case, then you have too much volume.

How could we prove any of this? Patterns of use by bad actors that don't trigger any response from the host. Internal emails showing Dotcom knew. The reputation of the site on the Internet - "Everyone else seems to know, why didn't you?"

We should probably note that sites like Kimbo's have either moved offshore or disappeared from the web. If his case is strong, I don't think this would have happened.
 
Good example. As you have outlined it, I don't think Dropbox would be liable. So, what would have to be different to make them so?

Well, presumably, both Dropbox and Kimbo's site had language in the MA about not using the site for illegal purposes. What measures do they take to enforce it? To what extent should they have known shenanigans were going on?

My impression is that Dotcom not only knew what was going on, but relied on it to get memberships and make money. My beef is this business of turning a blind eye to it all and claiming to be an innocent third party.
It is often the case that a legal activity (hosting files) moves into the culpable category if one knows it is furthering illegal activity and does nothing about it. I could be renting cheap motel rooms by the hour. I can claim they are being used by the homeless or others in a legal manner. But if there's a constant parade of hookers and johns, at some point a reasonable person is going to know about it.

Do data managers have an obligation to police the use of their services? I think they do. What might indicate nefarious use? Multiple (maybe thousands) of downloads of a file, a user who has been tagged before for copyright violation, mention of a user on an illegal file sharing site, the type of material a user stores (if it isn't encrypted). Did Dotcom ban users who violated the terms or simply remove tainted links?

I don't think it's an excuse to say the volume of data makes it impossible to police - if that's the case, then you have too much volume.

How could we prove any of this? Patterns of use by bad actors that don't trigger any response from the host. Internal emails showing Dotcom knew. The reputation of the site on the Internet - "Everyone else seems to know, why didn't you?"

We should probably note that sites like Kimbo's have either moved offshore or disappeared from the web. If his case is strong, I don't think this would have happened.

Very good post, particularly the highlighted. Anyone who thinks Mega was anything other than a massive pirate site aimed at making Dotcom megabucks is naive in the extreme.
 
Well, presumably, both Dropbox and Kimbo's site had language in the MA about not using the site for illegal purposes. What measures do they take to enforce it? To what extent should they have known shenanigans were going on?

My impression is that Dotcom not only knew what was going on, but relied on it to get memberships and make money. My beef is this business of turning a blind eye to it all and claiming to be an innocent third party.

Your "impression" it not evidence of anything. Unlike Lionking, who seems to think that innocence or guilt is determined by his own personal beliefs, I think guilt has to be proved. If this is to be a criminal case, then Dotcom need to be proved beyond a reasonable doubt, to have known what was going on. Proving someone knew something is one of the most difficult things you can do and it is a LOT harder that proving that some carried out a physical act; the latter can be proven with forensic evidence, the former cannot.

"Oh, he must have known what was going on" is not evidence in any court of law in a civilised country.

Anecdotal evidence is also, not evidence in a court of Law

This sort of stuff might satisfy the Lionkings of this world, who will simply swallow any official line that is spoonfed to them, but it does NOT satisfy me. I too think he had to have known what was going on, but until I have proof, I must keep an open mind.... innocent until PROVEN guilty.

I think this whole money laundering charge is just trumped up BS to get him back in the US so that the copyright holders can get access to him in a civil case, where the standard of proof is "on the balance of probability", a much lower standard. Its simply bootstrapping....
 
Your "impression" it not evidence of anything. Unlike Lionking, who seems to think that innocence or guilt is determined by his own personal beliefs, I think guilt has to be proved. If this is to be a criminal case, then Dotcom need to be proved beyond a reasonable doubt, to have known what was going on. Proving someone knew something is one of the most difficult things you can do and it is a LOT harder that proving that some carried out a physical act; the latter can be proven with forensic evidence, the former cannot.

"Oh, he must have known what was going on" is not evidence in any court of law in a civilised country.

Anecdotal evidence is also, not evidence in a court of Law

This sort of stuff might satisfy the Lionkings of this world, who will simply swallow any official line that is spoonfed to them, but it does NOT satisfy me. I too think he had to have known what was going on, but until I have proof, I must keep an open mind.... innocent until PROVEN guilty.

I think this whole money laundering charge is just trumped up BS to get him back in the US so that the copyright holders can get access to him in a civil case, where the standard of proof is "on the balance of probability", a much lower standard. Its simply bootstrapping....

As I said, naive beliefs are everywhere in this thread.
 
Your "impression" it not evidence of anything. Unlike Lionking, who seems to think that innocence or guilt is determined by his own personal beliefs, I think guilt has to be proved. If this is to be a criminal case, then Dotcom need to be proved beyond a reasonable doubt, to have known what was going on. Proving someone knew something is one of the most difficult things you can do and it is a LOT harder that proving that some carried out a physical act; the latter can be proven with forensic evidence, the former cannot.

"Oh, he must have known what was going on" is not evidence in any court of law in a civilised country.

Anecdotal evidence is also, not evidence in a court of Law

This sort of stuff might satisfy the Lionkings of this world, who will simply swallow any official line that is spoonfed to them, but it does NOT satisfy me. I too think he had to have known what was going on, but until I have proof, I must keep an open mind.... innocent until PROVEN guilty.

In order to prove him guilty, won't they have to extradite him?
 
There is nothing stopping the Copyright holders from coming to NZ and going after Dotcom with a Civil prosecution in a NZ court. Its not hard to guess why they haven't done that, when they can get the FBI to trump up a few bogus charges and do their donkey work for them.
 
There is nothing stopping the Copyright holders from coming to NZ and going after Dotcom with a Civil prosecution in a NZ court. Its not hard to guess why they haven't done that, when they can get the FBI to trump up a few bogus charges and do their donkey work for them.

If Dotcom's guilt can't be proven, as you seem to be claiming, why are worried where he's being tried? The US is hardly a third world hellhole with kangaroo courts. Bring it on I say. If Dotcom is pure as the driven snow, he will be greeted with a tickertape parade when gets back home to Finland, Germany, Hong Kong, New Zealand, wherever.
 
If Dotcom's guilt can't be proven, as you seem to be claiming....

Strawman. NO-ONE, BUT NO-ONE is claiming that his guilt cannot be proven.

What we are saying is that YOU are declaring him guilty on YOUR GUT FEELING and with NO EVIDENCE.

Have you ever served on a trial jury?

If so, did you decide innocence or guilt on your "feeling"?
 
Strawman. NO-ONE, BUT NO-ONE is claiming that his guilt cannot be proven.

What we are saying is that YOU are declaring him guilty on YOUR GUT FEELING and with NO EVIDENCE.

Have you ever served on a trial jury?

If so, did you decide innocence or guilt on your "feeling"?

Pro tip. This is not a jury. I'm not a judge. I'm posting opinions on an Internet forum. Just as you are. Clear?

ETA, oh caps! Well done. Your opinions are much, much stronger as a result.
 
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Very good post, particularly the highlighted. Anyone who thinks Mega was anything other than a massive pirate site aimed at making Dotcom megabucks is naive in the extreme.

I don't care what gut instinct tells you, if he's done something that there is a law against, let him have a fair trial like everyone else, and have the prosecution prove their claims with evidence.

BTW, it's Megaupload, not Mega - the latter service AFAIK isn't part of the case.
 
If Dotcom's guilt can't be proven, as you seem to be claiming, why are worried where he's being tried? The US is hardly a third world hellhole with kangaroo courts.

It already *is* a kangaroo court, what makes you think that will change once he gets to the US? I only expect his treatment to get worse.

Consider

1. The theatrical, deliberately over-the-top arrest with SWAT teams and helicopters, to convince public that he is some sort of dangerous criminal
2. The GCSB illegally spies on him
3. Police evidence gets illegally given to the US
4. The US government seizes and takes ownership of all his assets, before he has even gone to trial
5. The US government prevents him paying for any US based legal representation

That the NZ Government is tied up in the middle of this Punch & Judy show is a disgrace. All you need to do is slap a tail on it and call it Skippy.
 
In one of the links posted called : Piracy is NOT Theft: Problems of a Nonsense Metaphor - https://torrentfreak.com/piracy-is-not-theft-111104/

Several points are made as why it 'matters' how its called.

Further to that, Richard Stallman points out that "filesharing is not piracy":

When record companies make a fuss about the danger of "piracy", they're not talking about violent attacks on shipping. What they complain about is the sharing of copies of music, an activity in which millions of people participate in a spirit of cooperation. The term "piracy" is used by record companies to demonize sharing and cooperation by equating them to kidnaping, murder and theft.

Copyright was set up after the printing press made copying a matter of mass production, typically done commercially. Copyright was acceptable in that technological context because it functioned as an industrial regulation, not restricting readers or (later) music listeners.

In the 1890s, record companies began selling mass-produced musical recordings. These records facilitated the enjoyment of music, and did nothing to interfere with listening to music. Copyright on these musical recordings was mostly uncontroversial as it only restricted record companies and not music listeners.

Today's digital technology enables everyone to make and share copies. Record companies now seek to use copyright law to deny us the use of this technical advance. The law which was acceptable when it restricted only publishers is now an injustice because it forbids cooperation among citizens.

Dotcom is a victim of our outdated views on copyright and the thuggery of mega-corporations. He hasn't killed or raped anybody, nor even tangibly stolen anything, to warrant this type of treatment. He is being treated like a criminal due to the calculus of "if So-And-So and Such-And-Such hadn't downloaded this movie here and there, they might've given some money to us, so it is the same as if Dotcom stole that money from us".

Although the only thing he did was operate a website that facilitated sharing of computer files, he's being treated like a member of al-Qaeda.
 
I don't care what gut instinct tells you, if he's done something that there is a law against, let him have a fair trial like everyone else, and have the prosecution prove their claims with evidence.

BTW, it's Megaupload, not Mega - the latter service AFAIK isn't part of the case.

He will have his day in court. Soon hopefully. As the aggrieved parties (copyright holders) are predominantly from the US, this is the right jurisdiction. Some of Dotcom's supporters seem not to want a trial at all. Hmmmm, how did he end up in NZ? He's been dodging judgement a long time. Bring the trial on.
 
Pro tip. This is not a jury. I'm not a judge. I'm posting opinions on an Internet forum. Just as you are. Clear?

Judging by your posts at other forums, I think you have no real idea what judgement is, or how to use it. Its laughable that your have the temerity to call yourself "pro"

ETA, oh caps! Well done. Your opinions are much, much stronger as a result.

Its called emphasis. I use it when the person I am debating is deaf... wilfully or otherwise.
 
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It already *is* a kangaroo court, what makes you think that will change once he gets to the US? I only expect his treatment to get worse.

Consider

1. The theatrical, deliberately over-the-top arrest with SWAT teams and helicopters, to convince public that he is some sort of dangerous criminal
2. The GCSB illegally spies on him
3. Police evidence gets illegally given to the US
4. The US government seizes and takes ownership of all his assets, before he has even gone to trial
5. The US government prevents him paying for any US based legal representation

That the NZ Government is tied up in the middle of this Punch & Judy show is a disgrace. All you need to do is slap a tail on it and call it Skippy.

Further to that, Richard Stallman points out that "filesharing is not piracy":



Dotcom is a victim of our outdated views on copyright and the thuggery of mega-corporations. He hasn't killed or raped anybody, nor even tangibly stolen anything, to warrant this type of treatment. He is being treated like a criminal due to the calculus of "if So-And-So and Such-And-Such hadn't downloaded this movie here and there, they might've given some money to us, so it is the same as if Dotcom stole that money from us".

Although the only thing he did was operate a website that facilitated sharing of computer files, he's being treated like a member of al-Qaeda.


Several nails firmly struck on heads
 
Further to that, Richard Stallman points out that "filesharing is not piracy":



Dotcom is a victim of our outdated views on copyright and the thuggery of mega-corporations. He hasn't killed or raped anybody, nor even tangibly stolen anything, to warrant this type of treatment. He is being treated like a criminal due to the calculus of "if So-And-So and Such-And-Such hadn't downloaded this movie here and there, they might've given some money to us, so it is the same as if Dotcom stole that money from us".

That's an interesting legal theory there but it brings up a critical question: If I create something of value to others, do I own it? Should I be able to sell it to others? To what extent should I be able to control its distribution?

The purpose of intellectual property rights (including copyrights and patents) is to incentivize creativity by rewarding it - do you reject this idea? If not, how can you square it with the free-for-all that file sharing had become?

It seems to me the logic is that "if enough people want to do it, it shouldn't be illegal," an example of the tyranny of the majority.
 
Further to that, Richard Stallman points out that "filesharing is not piracy":

A really interesting article here, which I found by following a link in your linked article.

http://www.cato-unbound.org/2008/06/09/rasmus-fleischer/future-copyright

This bit is especially interesting, and if this guy is right, it will spell the end of music companies. I can't see any way (short of an Orwellian society) of stopping this....

One early darknet has been termed the “sneakernet”: walking by foot to your friend carrying video cassettes or floppy discs. Nor is the sneakernet purely a technology of the past. The capacity of portable storage devices is increasing exponentially, much faster than Internet bandwidth, according to a principle known as “Kryder’s Law.” The information in our pockets yesterday was measured in megabytes, today in gigabytes, tomorrow in terabytes and in a few years probably in petabytes (an incredible amount of data). Within 10-15 years a cheap pocket-size media player will probably be able to store all recorded music that has ever been released — ready for direct copying to another person’s device.

In other words: The sneakernet will come back if needed. “I believe this is a ‘wild card’ that most people in the music industry are not seeing at all,” writes Swedish filesharing researcher Daniel Johansson. “When music fans can say, ‘I have all the music from 1950-2010, do you want a copy?’ — what kind of business models will be viable in such a reality?”


You can now buy a 1 terabyte USB flash drive. Such a device is capable of storing 250,000 average length MP3s or 700 ripped full lenth movies. How on earth do they expect to spot people from sharing these devices?
 
You can now buy a 1 terabyte USB flash drive. Such a device is capable of storing 250,000 average length MP3s or 700 ripped full lenth movies. How on earth do they expect to spot people from sharing these devices?

A few ways come to mind: education, social shaming, continuing to create new stuff, lopping off a few heads as examples, changing formats regularly, making copies personally identifiable, prosecuting Kim Dotcom.

In the conjuring community an interesting nuance has arisen - new effects that require a tangible item to perform are less vulnerable to getting ripped off. The secret is easy to share, but the gimmick? Not so much.

Naturally, manufacturers in China have jumped on this...

It's a continuing cycle.
 
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You will, or course, be able to quote chapter, clause and sub-clause, the Law which specifies this?
It's part of the Online Copyright Infringement Liability Limitation Act, once notified of infringement the provider must remove the infringning material. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Online_Copyright_Infringement_Liability_Limitation_Act

1. I rip a DVD Movie
That is obvious copyright infringement right there, you made a copy without permission of the copyright holder. Everything that follows does nothing to correct this violation of copyright law.
 
That is obvious copyright infringement right there, you made a copy without permission of the copyright holder. Everything that follows does nothing to correct this violation of copyright law.

Wrong!

In New Zealand, Australia and several other countries, including Spain, it is legal to make a private copy of copyrighted material for yourself providing that you have accessed the original material legally. Even uploading it is legal.

However. making it available for distribution is where the copyright is infringed.

Care to try again?
 
It's part of the Online Copyright Infringement Liability Limitation Act, once notified of infringement the provider must remove the infringning material. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Online_Copyright_Infringement_Liability_Limitation_Act

Very nice sidestep. You'd make a good rugby player.

The Law you quoted does not support your assertion that "it does become the proprietor's responsibility to guard that copyright.".

Having to remove the infringing item is not the same as being responsible for guarding the copyright. i.e, having infringing copies on your site is not an offence, failing to take them down after the copyright holder instructs you to do so, is!

Think YouTube.
 
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Vi.e, having infringing copies on your site is not an offence, failing to take them down after the copyright holder instructs you to do so, is!

Not taking them down isn't an offence - the ISP simply loses the copyright infringement liability safeguards provided by the act (hence the "Online Copyright Infringement Liability Limitation Act"):

Provided the notification complies with the requirements of Section 512, the online service provider must expeditiously remove or disable access to the allegedly infringing material, otherwise the provider loses its safe harbour and is exposed to possible liability.


Anyway, quite why the US government thinks this act in any way applies to a company registered in Hong Kong is baffling.
 
Dotcom enabled BitTorrent downloading of full length movies and TV series. If anyone on YouTube loaded full length copyright movies and TV shows, how long do you think that content would stay there?


Given that I have been watching full-length episodes of multiple television shows on Youtube for years, all of which are still there, I'd say content will stay there indefinitely unless someone actively goes looking for it to have it removed. And even then, it'll be back up within days, if not hours, and again persist for years.
 
That's an interesting legal theory there but it brings up a critical question: If I create something of value to others, do I own it? Should I be able to sell it to others? To what extent should I be able to control its distribution?


The US has a reasonably good body of law regarding this issue, it's call the "First Sale Doctrine". This, however, does break down in the case of digital copies, since these are distinctly different from physical products.

In the case of physical products, the creator should have absolutely no control over the specific instance of the product after it has been sold to the first buyer. That means that the buyer has the ability to share it or re-sell it when and how they see fit. This does not, however, allow them to reproduce -- make duplicates -- of the product; except in extremely limited Fair Use cases, such as archival backups; short excerpts for criticism, review, and parody purposes; and sampling for use in derivative artistic works (though this last is a huge gray area in case law).

The purpose of intellectual property rights (including copyrights and patents) is to incentivize creativity by rewarding it - do you reject this idea?

That is the ostensible purpose, and certainly was at the inception of such laws. However, Intellectual Property laws have changed dramatically since their inception; almost invariably in a way that favours the corporations, with a few notable exceptions. Corporations have also fought very hard against any changes or legislation that puts ownership in the hands of the consumer, or benefits the consumer in any way.

One of the biggest examples of this is the periodic extension of the Copyright period; invariably done at the behest of major corporations in order to maintain exclusive marketability of legacy properties. Disney being the prime driver of this, with the recent extensions being pushed for the primary purpose of maintaining ownership of their Mickey Mouse character from devolving to the public domain, as it should normally have done decades ago. This does nothing to "incentivize creation" of original work, it merely ensures perpetual ownership of a particular work and its derivatives for the purposes of maintaining the corporation's ability to profit off it; while stifling creative use of the property by others in derivative works. It also effectively stifles similar efforts if they are deemed by the courts to resemble the original work too closely.

The only notable exception to this, aside from existing Fair Use laws (which the corporations have managed to make some headway against, though not destroying it entirely as they would like), is the "time shifting" and "space shifting" exceptions for copying.

Time shifting is the principle that allows the consumer to record a broadcast for later personal, noncommercial consumption; and was established by IIRC consumer video tape, although it applies to audio tape recording of radio programs as well.

Space shifting is the principle that allows media to be copied to play back on a different device using a different format. This is what allows a CD to be copied to an audio tape (for example, mix tapes), or for a CD to be ripped to a digital audio file to play on a digital audio playback device. It is also what allows native digital audio files to be copied to a standalone device or playback from the "cloud" without having to delete the original file off of the computer it was initially downloaded to.

Legislation on these contains some vague areas, and case law is not as consistent as we should want; but the principles are fairly firmly established.

Corporations have tried to quash the time and space shifting exemptions, as well as gut First Sale Doctrine, by insisting that a particular product -- such as a software application, music file, or video file -- is a service that the consumer is subscribing to, rather than a distinct product; and therefore not subject to these consumer protections. Case law has not, to my knowledge, been firmly established here; and some producers have gotten around that by offering their products via an online streaming service that attempts to block the ability of the consumer to create persistent copies; or by building in expiration of the product (in the case of software), or by requiring the product to connect to an online server to validate its use. And entire industry sprung up to produce Digital Rights Management schemes to allow producers to limit the ability of consumers to take advantage of time shifting and space shifting rights, under the auspices of "fighting digital piracy".

There were several instances where producers attempted to use a degradable physical medium (a digital video disk based on dyes similar to DVD-Rs, but less stable so that they would degrade after a short time), or a proprietary medium and player that contained a lock code to limit the number of times it could be played back, in order to enforce the re-classification of the product as a subscription service. These were, predictably, failures. Even the streaming systems have seen their limitations compromised by utilities that enable the creation of persistent copies. DRM encryption and lock schemes find themselves hacked.

And it's not just pirates that use these hacks to allow themselves to create copies. Legitimate owners also use them to allow space and time shifting normally restricted by the format, as well as the creation of backup archives, something that the corporate producers typically try to eliminate the possibility of. The most notable example is the use of "cracks" to allow the use of Sony software products without installing their invasive rootkit DRM by those who purchased the product legitimately, and found their computer system functionality disrupted by the DRM scheme. Sony was eventually forced to discontinue the scheme under the pressure of multiple class-action lawsuits, as it was effectively an exploitable computer virus, and semi-official backlash from the Department of Homeland Security. Worse, Sony was also found to have themselves infringed copyright due to using a considerable amount of unlicensed open-source software in the creation of the rootkit.

Intellectual property law at this point in time has very little to do with promoting creativity; only a tiny fraction of the legislation and case law still applies to this purpose. It's now predominantly about corporations protecting cash cow franchises from falling into the public domain.

If not, how can you square it with the free-for-all that file sharing had become?


Technology has at many points in history created paradigm shifts in how intellectual property is treated. You pointed out the printing press as a historical example. Better examples are audio cassette tape, and video tape. In both cases, the industry attempted to outright ban the sales of both to consumers; and failing that, to levy exhorbitant fees on the sale of blank media that would be paid to the the entertainment corporations. The same effort was made to ban MP3 players, DVR products, and other recording devices.

Interestingly, this is not exclusively limited to the digital age. First Sale Doctrine was originally developed to allow the re-sale, lending, and rental of physical media such as books and vinyl LP records. The continued existence of used bookstores is due to this doctrine.

Industry has had to adapt to the technology, and always has. Protectionist legislation has rarely been successful for long. Either the public simply ignores it, and legislation eventually catches up to the public; or the protected format is simply supplanted by a new one, and the issue becomes moot.

It seems to me the logic is that "if enough people want to do it, it shouldn't be illegal," an example of the tyranny of the majority.


Yes, but that's not really the issue here. The issue is that it's going to happen, regardless of what anyone does, and the culture needs to adapt, just as it did for previous technological changes.
 
Anyway, quite why the US government thinks this act in any way applies to a company registered in Hong Kong is baffling.


That's the main reason why the US government is working so hard to move this to a US venue, so that US law will apply. Copyright law is not universally consistent, even with the Berne Convention; and US law is much more strict than the convention, or most of the rest of the world. Some places in the world do not even have copyright laws, and are not signatories of the Berne convention.

However, the Berne Convention does provide a provision for this, namely the "country of origin" clause. If the copyrights being infringed originated in the US, then one could legitimately make an argument that US law applies.
 
That's the main reason why the US government is working so hard to move this to a US venue, so that US law will apply. Copyright law is not universally consistent, even with the Berne Convention; and US law is much more strict than the convention, or most of the rest of the world. Some places in the world do not even have copyright laws, and are not signatories of the Berne convention.

However, the Berne Convention does provide a provision for this, namely the "country of origin" clause. If the copyrights being infringed originated in the US, then one could legitimately make an argument that US law applies.
The USA is involved.
I started the thread because I find it beyond abhorrent that there should be a sanction (decades in jail) that may apply.
This is a question of morality and ethics.
Clearly there are crimes where it is straightforward that society will hold the perpetrator to account to the ultimate degree.
This case completely fails that sensible man test, so New Zealand should never surrender Dotcom to an amoral jurisdiction.
I find the actions of the New Zealand judiciary totally repellant, not for the first time.
 
That's the main reason why the US government is working so hard to move this to a US venue, so that US law will apply. Copyright law is not universally consistent, even with the Berne Convention; and US law is much more strict than the convention, or most of the rest of the world. Some places in the world do not even have copyright laws, and are not signatories of the Berne convention.

However, the Berne Convention does provide a provision for this, namely the "country of origin" clause. If the copyrights being infringed originated in the US, then one could legitimately make an argument that US law applies.


Not satisfied with claiming themselves to be the World Police, the US Govt now seek to claim the title of World Court, World Judge, World Jury and World Jailer.

US Laws should not, and do not apply outside of the US and its Territories. Last time I looked, Hong Kong was not a US Territory, and nor was New Zealand, although Jonkey the Donkey and his corrupt asses seem to be trying very hard to make it one.
 
Not satisfied with claiming themselves to be the World Police, the US Govt now seek to claim the title of World Court, World Judge, World Jury and World Jailer.

US Laws should not, and do not apply outside of the US and its Territories. Last time I looked, Hong Kong was not a US Territory, and nor was New Zealand, although Jonkey the Donkey and his corrupt asses seem to be trying very hard to make it one.

Which is why extradition treaties exist. Otherwise criminals would simply flee from jurisdiction to jurisdiction, and expect to never face the courts. As Dotcom tried to do, ultimately unsuccessfully. Good that NZ is finally showing a bit of backbone and allowing this non-NZ citizen to face charges.
 
This case completely fails that sensible man test, so New Zealand should never surrender Dotcom to an amoral jurisdiction.
I find the actions of the New Zealand judiciary totally repellant, not for the first time.


Not making a statement on the morality or immorality of the case or potential penalties, just pointing out that via international treaty of which Germany, China, and New Zealand are also signatories, a case can be made that US law applies.

Not satisfied with claiming themselves to be the World Police, the US Govt now seek to claim the title of World Court, World Judge, World Jury and World Jailer.


Erm, no. Familiarize yourself with the Berne Convention treaty.

US Laws should not, and do not apply outside of the US and its Territories. Last time I looked, Hong Kong was not a US Territory, and nor was New Zealand, although Jonkey the Donkey and his corrupt asses seem to be trying very hard to make it one.
Which is why extradition treaties exist. Otherwise criminals would simply flee from jurisdiction to jurisdiction, and expect to never face the courts.


Exactly. Regardless of the morality of the legislation involved, there's a good chance that US law does apply, if the content being pirated originated in the US, and that Dotcom would be liable under it, and extradition would be a valid response.

Are the US intellectual property laws improper, immoral, and/or draconian? Possibly. I'd go so far as to say definitely. But that's a subject for a different thread. Is the US badly over-reaching on their attempt to prosecute Dotcom? Again, I'd personally say yes; and very likely at the behest of corporate lobbyists, since much IP legislation is effectively written by those lobbyists, at least in part. But NZ would very likely not be violating any legal principles by extraditing him. I'll wait to see what those more familiar and experienced with the relevant laws have to say on the subject.
 
Which is why extradition treaties exist. Otherwise criminals would simply flee from jurisdiction to jurisdiction, and expect to never face the courts. As Dotcom tried to do, ultimately unsuccessfully. Good that NZ is finally showing a bit of backbone and allowing this non-NZ citizen to face charges.

Rubbish. You know perfectly well what I am talking about

Johan Schimitt, a citizen of Germany, is accused of committing a crime in the USA and flees to New Zealand. Extradition is right and proper, and he should be made to face trial there.

Johan Schimitt, a citizen of Germany is accused of committing a crime in Hong Kong, and flees to New Zealand. Extradition to the USA should not apply. Hong Kong should have jurisdiction over any prosecution, but if they choose not to prosecute that is their prerogative.

Put it this way. If a German citizen is accused if robbing the Bank of America branch in Hong Kong and then flees to New Zealand, who has jurisdiction, Hong Kong or the USA? Would the USA be allowed to extradite him?

Erm, no. Familiarize yourself with the Berne Convention treaty.

Since the Berne Convention's inception in 1886, how many times has a citizen of country "A", who is resident in country "B", and who is accused of committing a copyright infringement in country "C", been the subject if an extradition proceeding by Country "D".

I can tell you the answer....never. The Berne Convention has been in existence for almost 130 years and this has never happened. It is the US Government who are driving this, and our corrupt little National Government are falling over themselves to let themselves be walked over.

If Dotcom is allowed to be extradited under the circumstances outlined above, then that has some frightening wider implications. This is the thin end of the wedge, and we have no idea how wide the other end is.
 
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Who is the crime in Hong Kong (and in New Zealand for that matter) against?

If, hypothetically, Dotcom fired a rocket from NZ or Hong Kong into the US injuring people, the US should just shrug its shoulders? Because this is the digital version of what Dotcom did. Hiding behind antiquated conventions which were put together before, and which did not anticipate the digital age is what is rubbish.
 
Since the Berne Convention's inception in 1886, how many times has a citizen of country "A", who is resident in country "B", and who is accused of committing a copyright infringement in country "C", been the subject if an extradition proceeding by Country "D".


Why does that matter? If the copyright infringement is in country C, and the relevant treaties make allowances for that situation, then the law is clearly on the side of extradition. The fact that no one has brought it up before is irrelevant. No more relevant than the fact that digital media and distribution did not exist in 1886; since it exists now, and is happening now.
 
Who is the crime in Hong Kong (and in New Zealand for that matter) against?

Irrelevant

If, hypothetically, Dotcom fired a rocket from NZ or Hong Kong into the US injuring people, the US should just shrug its shoulders? Because this is the digital version of what Dotcom did.

Apart from being a hyperbolically ridiculous exaggeration of the facts, how many people were injured killed by his copyright infringement?

Remember (if in fact you ever knew) that the US could not extradite him for the copyright infringement because it didn't meet the criteria for extradition, i.e. you cannot be extradited for copyright infringement because it is not a criminal offence. What the US Government has done has trumped up bogus charges to bootstrap it up to a sufficient level criminality so that they can use those charges extradite him. In all probability the criminal charges will be thrown out. The egregious breaches of Rules of Evidence (illegal search and seizure, illegal disclosure of documents, all at the behest of the FBI) will ensure that all that evidence will be inadmissible.... but hey, now that he is in the USA, Big Music will be able to go after him in civil court, which was the US government's intention all along.

This has been a blatant misuse of Law for commercial and political gain... nothing more, nothing less.

Hiding behind antiquated conventions which were put together before, and which did not anticipate the digital age is what is rubbish.

100% agree, and that is exactly what the US government are doing, using antiquated Laws that were never meant to apply in order to corrupt the procedure to get what they want.

Your blind faith in the US Goverment's noble motives is noted.
 
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