Kentucky Sheriff fatally shoots District Judge inside Kentucky Courtroom

[marting]

Aaaaaand the betting window is open! I'm gonna go ahead and say the limit approaches zero for any argument at all resulting in an aquittal. Like, even theoretically. This defense attorney may be planning on presenting the famed SovCit Defense, where he asserts that both the defendant and his representation are not subject to some arbitrary "state laws" which prevent summary execution in the place of work. Also that they are both slobbering idiots with no grasp on right and wrong, and that the attorney got his law degree by responding to an ad found on a pack of matches.

I'm guessing the atty is thinking jury nullification. Juries can acquit someone who is clearly guilty though that is pretty rare. In this case it would have to be something the judge did that was so truly horrible that the jurors would be thinking to themselves, "yeah, I'd shoot him too."

That said, the atty is not allowed to propose jury nullification at trial. So it's damned rare. However, I can't think of anything else the atty could be thinking to suggest Stiles would be acquitted.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

... it would have to be something the judge did that was so truly horrible that the jurors would be thinking to themselves, "yeah, I'd shoot him too."

The two friends had invented a time machine and had lots of adventures until the sheriff discovered the judge had become obsessed with changing history and was going back in time to teach Nazi scientists how to create an atom bomb by 1943.

Simple as that.

 

[marting]

The two friends had invented a time machine and had lots of adventures until the sheriff discovered the judge had become obsessed with changing history and was going back in time to teach Nazi scientists how to create an atom bomb by 1943.

Simple as that.

Good one!

The best I can imagine is that the judge got the daughter pregnant and was getting together with the wife to urge her to get an abortion. If the sheriff was convinced the only way to prevent that was to shoot the judge, that might be an argument at trial. It's one hell of a stretch but might work in the bible belt.

 

[CarbShark]

Yes. That it is. And like any other rule or law, it could stand with some modifications to increase efficiency.

It's not supposed to be efficient. If anything efficiency is not compatible with justice. It's highly inefficient to give everyone rights to an attorney and their day in court and trial by jury etc.

 

[Ziggurat]

I understand that. Still.. It's kinda hard to see what kind of defence he would go for that would result in an acquittal, unless he's going for jury nullification.

Jury nullification is probably his best bet, if the judge in fact did something really bad (and even then it's not guaranteed). If the judge didn't do anything really bad, then even that option is off the table.

But a defense attorney has to defend the client even if they know they're going to lose, if that's what the client wants. So even if there's no shot at jury nullification, he's still got to pretend to the public that he can win. To do otherwise might bias potential jurors against his client. It's not an option to say, "well, you're going to lose no matter what, so might as well not try".

 

[Ziggurat]

It's not supposed to be efficient. If anything efficiency is not compatible with justice. It's highly inefficient to give everyone rights to an attorney and their day in court and trial by jury etc.

Yeah, when it comes to the power of the state to deprive citizens of their rights and possibly even their life, efficiency is not my primary concern. Moreover, in this specific case, the time spent on this one preliminary hearing is going to be dwarfed by other aspects of the case, so it's not even like there's a lot of efficiency to be gained by getting rid of it.

 

[Thermal]

It's not supposed to be efficient. If anything efficiency is not compatible with justice. It's highly inefficient to give everyone rights to an attorney and their day in court and trial by jury etc.

Yes it is. But you can be both efficient and thorough. Our system as-is tosses efficiency wholesale. And what is the result? Costs and time so high that many defendants settle, cop a plea, or go no contest simply because they can't afford to put up a fight. That's a betrayal of justice, not a championing of it.

 

[Thermal]

Yeah, when it comes to the power of the state to deprive citizens of their rights and possibly even their life, efficiency is not my primary concern. Moreover, in this specific case, the time spent on this one preliminary hearing is going to be dwarfed by other aspects of the case, so it's not even like there's a lot of efficiency to be gained by getting rid of it.

What I'd bet though, is that the entire prosecution and defense could be delivered in a matter of a half hour or so. Add an hour or so to spell out the relevant statutes and their meaning. Mickey shot the mother ****** in cold blood, and will come up with some bull **** excuse for it that no one is going to buy (that last bit is obviously speculative but I'll bet ends up right on the mark).

We were actually touching on all this in another thread. In every litigation I have been involved in, the judges have vocally admonished both parties to stop ******* around, and get to the point. And repeatedly. And the judges admonished for maybe a tenth of what I would have. Hell, I'd have had every attorney in jail for contempt, if wasting time was a punishable offense.

Eta: I'm not suggesting efficiency to the point of hurrying up. Explore every legitimate legal avenue, absolutely. But it doesn't seem horrifically complicated to leap frog right on over the preliminary hearing and grand jury indictment in this OP case. Basically allow for both parties to stipulate that "ya this should go to trial, we can cut to the chase on this puppy".

 

[newyorkguy]

If I had to make a prediction, it would be that the defense and prosecutors will agree to a plea deal primarily to avoid a trial and having to wash the dirty laundry in public. We may never really know what motivated the Sheriff to murder the judge.

 

[Ziggurat]

If I had to make a prediction, it would be that the defense and prosecutors will agree to a plea deal primarily to avoid a trial and having to wash the dirty laundry in public. We may never really know what motivated the Sheriff to murder the judge.

Quite possible. But if the judge really did something terrible, I'm not sure that will fly. The reason being that if the judge did something like rape the daughter, then the sheriff probably won't agree to a harsh plea deal (taking a gamble on jury nullification instead). But the public is probably going to **** a brick if the plea deal is really lenient and they aren't given an explanation as to why. In that scenario, I think a lenient plea deal would need to include publicizing why they're letting him off (relatively) easy.

But given that this is only a possibility and not what I would currently describe as a likelihood as to what happened, if the judge either didn't do anything wrong or what he did do wrong wasn't that bad, then the prosecution probably won't accept any plea deal without a significant sentence, and the sheriff might still accept that because there's little chance of jury nullification if the judge didn't do something really bad. You could probably justify some secrecy about what went down if the sentence was still significant.

 

[Gulliver Foyle]

The two friends had invented a time machine and had lots of adventures until the sheriff discovered the judge had become obsessed with changing history and was going back in time to teach Nazi scientists how to create an atom bomb by 1943.

Simple as that.

Given the part of the US the murder happened in, more likely it was over the judge's plan to go back and kill Hitler during WW 1 that the sherrif snapped.

 

[Thermal]

If they get the charged dropped to manslaughter, per the extreme emotional distress angle, he's doing a max of 20, out in 10 if I'm reading this right. That puts him back out on the street at age 53 with a daughter still in her 20s. He'll have time to rack up another kill. That's why I'm seeing the prosecutors not taking less than murder. I mean, all but the coldest of cold blooded murders could be said to have come about under extreme emotional distress. I don't think Stines will meet that bar. He shot carefully and thoroughly and walked out peacefully and speaking calmly. A little gibbering idiot behavior might have taken him a long way, and playing it "not distressed" is gonna hurt his chances.

 

[plague311]

If I had to make a prediction, it would be that the defense and prosecutors will agree to a plea deal primarily to avoid a trial and having to wash the dirty laundry in public. We may never really know what motivated the Sheriff to murder the judge.

Plea bargain still has a decent chance at exposing the details to the public. Plea deals aren't sealed by default, it has to be approved by a judge if I remember correctly. I asked for mine to be sealed, which was very minor, and got denied because I didn't have a good reason. I just didn't want the information public. It's possible that the girl being a minor would help that, but I'm still confused at her role in general.

I don't think Stines will meet that bar. He shot carefully and thoroughly and walked out peacefully and speaking calmly. A little gibbering idiot behavior might have taken him a long way, and playing it "not distressed" is gonna hurt his chances.

He also was about to leave and went back to shoot him again. You see in the video him walk towards the door, put his hand on the knob and then turn around. I'm assuming maybe the judge gave out a whimper and Stines wasn't stopping until the job was done. There is no doubt that Stines wanted the judge dead and wasn't going to quit until he got it.

 

[Thermal]

Latest reporting from their local news outlet, the Mountain Eagle, is that the girl's number was NOT stored on the judge's phone, and Stines manually dialed her number. They cite unnamed sources from law enforcement within the investigation.

 

[Thermal]

Also, while looking at the local news sources, local people are commenting pretty consistently on a few points:

1. No one seems to know of any relationship between the judge and the daughter. But-
2. The judge has a reputation for chasing tail, marriage notwithstanding, and-
3. The daughter is pregnant.

Strictly rumors by the locals who claim to know the players, but might be interesting if they flesh out.

 

[plague311]

You have links? I'm not finding very much but admittedly not looking hard and slightly distracted.

 

[Thermal]

You have links? I'm not finding very much but admittedly not looking hard and slightly distracted.

Not offhand. Court TV popped up on my YouTube recs last night about the Mountain Eagle story, and I verified that they were reporting it. Didn't save the tab from the site tho.

The rumors were from kicking around on comment pages and stuff last night. I wasn't going to mention them, but they seemed pretty consistent.

 

[plague311]

Not offhand. Court TV popped up on my YouTube recs last night about the Mountain Eagle story, and I verified that they were reporting it. Didn't save the tab from the site tho.

The rumors were from kicking around on comment pages and stuff last night. I wasn't going to mention them, but they seemed pretty consistent.

I'll check it out later. Actually got distracted by work today, rare but happens.

 

[Thermal]

I'll check it out later. Actually got distracted by work today, rare but happens.

Found the Court TV clip. Verifying took longer, as Mountain Eagle is a paid site, but dug around to find an excerpt. Can't find it yet, will try again

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=vnLSQbH7Cr8

 

[plague311]

Well, I did track down the story but everything they do is behind a paywall\subscription. So it does look like they have some more details but it wasn't worth it for me to sign up.

That does add a twist. I was confused about the daughters role which is now a bit more confusing. I'm going to see if I can find a repost of the story somewhere.

 

[Myriad]

Also, while looking at the local news sources, local people are commenting pretty consistently on a few points:

1. No one seems to know of any relationship between the judge and the daughter. But-
2. The judge has a reputation for chasing tail, marriage notwithstanding, and-
3. The daughter is pregnant.

Strictly rumors by the locals who claim to know the players, but might be interesting if they flesh out.

"I had to do it! There's no way my daughter could afford to pay him all that child support!"

"Um, she would have been receiving the child support."

"Oops... so, what do the doctors say? Is the judge going to be okay?"

 

[plague311]

Found the Court TV clip. Verifying took longer, as Mountain Eagle is a paid site, but dug around to find an excerpt. Can't find it yet, will try again

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=vnLSQbH7Cr8

This is the link to the story you're referring to, but there's not much to see.

 

[Matthew Best]

Reminds me of Gary Plauché

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gary_Plauché

 

[Thermal]

This is the link to the story you're referring to, but there's not much to see.

This wasn't from the articles that I saw last night, but it's NPR:

Kentucky State Trooper Matt Gayheart said, despite earlier police testimony suggesting otherwise, there was no evidence the daughter’s number had been previously called from the judge’s phone.

https://www.npr.org/2024/10/11/nx-s1-5138357/kentucky-sheriff-judge-shooting-stines-mullins-courthouse-letcher-daughter-murder-killing

Seems Gayheart is one of the investigators, and although he is being a little ambiguous, he does seem to be saying that the earlier reporting (of the number being "on" the judges phone) was wrong, and it actually wasn't.

 

[newyorkguy]

Developments in the case include Sheriff Mickey Stines being charged with first degree murder to which he has pleaded not guilty. His attorney told the media:

Shawn "Mickey" Stines, the Kentucky sheriff accused of shooting a district judge dead in his chambers, did not plan the killing and was not in his right mind, according to his lawyer. "It was not something that was planned and occurred in the heat of passion," defense attorney Jeremy Bartley told People. "For us, the highest level of culpability should be manslaughter based on the partial defense of extreme emotional disturbance." FOX News link

Meanwhile the local press, The Mountain Eagle, reports

Prosecutor sets up fund for daughters of Judge Mullins, says rumors not true.
Some members of the Letcher County Bar Association have established a college fund for the daughters of District Judge Kevin R. Mullins, who was shot to death in his office in the courthouse last week. Letcher Commonwealth’s Attorney Matt Butler posted a video announcing the fund on his Facebook page last week. Mountain Eagle article link (paywalled)

The article is paywalled, without the text about 'the rumors not true,' being accessible to non-subscribers.


[imgW=400]https://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/imagehosting/6459467107086c5ce9.jpg[/imgW]
Office cam records killing as it happens. The video shows Stines continued to fire even after the Judge fell to the floor. One of the state police detectives who arrested Stines quoted him as saying, "They are trying to kidnap my wife and kid.” ???

 

[Thermal]

So hey...everybody remember this story? At the beginning, we were thinking this might have something to do with that case where a woman was raped in the Judge's chambers, although the judge was not accused of involvement. Some of us thought it seemed suspicious that the assaults were taking place in that judges chambers. Well, it seems that it may have been no coincidence: the woman who was assaulted has testified that Mullins himself was basically "running a brothel" out of his chambers, trading sex for lenient treatment.

The obvious question being: was Stine's daughter in the corrections system? Did he find out that she was assaulted too?

Slain Kentucky judge allegedly linked to courtroom sextortion scandal

Lawyer claims Kevin Mullins was connected to sex-for-favors scheme akin to a ‘running a brothel’

www.theguardian.com

 

[gabeygoat]

Oof. Sounds like a David Lynch movie

 

[plague311]

So hey...everybody remember this story? At the beginning, we were thinking this might have something to do with that case where a woman was raped in the Judge's chambers, although the judge was not accused of involvement. Some of us thought it seemed suspicious that the assaults were taking place in that judges chambers. Well, it seems that it may have been no coincidence: the woman who was assaulted has testified that Mullins himself was basically "running a brothel" out of his chambers, trading sex for lenient treatment.

The obvious question being: was Stine's daughter in the corrections system? Did he find out that she was assaulted too?

Not entirely surprising I guess. The bigger question is a) did the sheriff know about it b) why did he say they were trying to take his family if it was related to this and c) why didn't the sheriff do anything about it if he knew about it?

 

[Thermal]

Not entirely surprising I guess. The bigger question is a) did the sheriff know about it b) why did he say they were trying to take his family if it was related to this and c) why didn't the sheriff do anything about it if he knew about it?

100% speculation because we don't have enough facts yet, but:

a) there's only three sherrifs, and Stines was one. I doubt seriously it could have been hidden from him, especially if the new rookie deputy slid right into it so fast. Doesn't sound like much of a secret.

b) that was a quick overheard one-liner, maybe not thought out. But is it possible that Mickey was dipping his dickey in this mess too, and the deposition he just went under made it clear to him that his involvement was going to become public, likely costing him his marriage?

c) if he was balls deep in it, so to speak, he might keep his mouth shut tight unless it was going to become public. That deposition might have tipped him off that the videos of, as the victim testified, *higher ups* banging girls, might include him, and the whole brothel thing get publicly aired.

 

[plague311]

a) there's only three sherrifs, and Stines was one. I doubt seriously it could have been hidden from him, especially if the new rookie deputy slid right into it so fast. Doesn't sound like much of a secret.

I agree. It's not like that the Sheriff didn't know about it, which makes me wonder what triggered the shooting. I think it's safe to say that the Sheriff didn't shoot the judge because the judge was going to squeal, or anything like that. The judge would have had as much, if not more, to lose than the Sheriff would. Why would the judge be the target here?

b) that was a quick overheard one-liner, maybe not thought out. But is it possible that Mickey was dipping his dickey in this mess too, and the deposition he just went under made it clear to him that his involvement was going to become public, likely costing him his marriage?

But how would the judge be to blame for that if the judge was allowing his chambers to be used to promote the activity? Even after reading the article I have no idea what would cause the sheriff to shoot the judge if they both had knowledge of what was going on and didn't do anything about it.

c) if he was balls deep in it, so to speak, he might keep his mouth shut tight unless it was going to become public. That deposition might have tipped him off that the videos of, as the victim testified, *higher ups* banging girls, might include him, and the whole brothel thing get publicly aired.

But it would also include the judge, as it mentioned in your article, having sex on camera as well. So it's not like the sheriff was being thrown under the bus or anything like that. I just don't understand how shooting the judge was supposed to help the sheriff in any way.

 

[Thermal]

I agree. It's not like that the Sheriff didn't know about it, which makes me wonder what triggered the shooting. I think it's safe to say that the Sheriff didn't shoot the judge because the judge was going to squeal, or anything like that. The judge would have had as much, if not more, to lose than the Sheriff would. Why would the judge be the target here?


But how would the judge be to blame for that if the judge was allowing his chambers to be used to promote the activity? Even after reading the article I have no idea what would cause the sheriff to shoot the judge if they both had knowledge of what was going on and didn't do anything about it.


But it would also include the judge, as it mentioned in your article, having sex on camera as well. So it's not like the sheriff was being thrown under the bus or anything like that. I just don't understand how shooting the judge was supposed to help the sheriff in any way.

Broadly, if the judge had control of the videotapes, he could remove his participation roles and throw everyone else under the bus.

But the problem is that we are still missing The Big Thing, whatever that might be. The explanations swing all over the place depending on what The Big Thing exactly is.

Stine's daughter was said to be right in the courtroom as this happened. That was in the school day, which is...weird, unless she quit school and was in a habit of hanging around jurisprudence. Or maybe she was in trouble, and about to face the court? I dunno. But the rape scandal going down in the murdered judge's chambers doesn't seem likely to be somehow removed from all this, unless this is a seriously ◊◊◊◊◊◊ up town.

 

[plague311]

Broadly, if the judge had control of the videotapes, he could remove his participation roles and throw everyone else under the bus.

Kind of...I think they were digital cameras. While I don't know much about the judge, they usually aren't technically savvy enough to thoroughly delete backs up and write over the data enough times to cover it up. I see what your point is but the witness called him out by name.

But the problem is that we are still missing The Big Thing, whatever that might be. The explanations swing all over the place depending on what The Big Thing exactly is.

For sure. The picture's slowly coming into focus but the daughters' involvement, if there was any at all, is still a question mark.

Stine's daughter was said to be right in the courtroom as this happened. That was in the school day, which is...weird, unless she quit school and was in a habit of hanging around jurisprudence. Or maybe she was in trouble, and about to face the court? I dunno. But the rape scandal going down in the murdered judge's chambers doesn't seem likely to be somehow removed from all this, unless this is a seriously ◊◊◊◊◊◊ up town.

Those small towns do get pretty ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊ bonkers and right now we have a judge running a ◊◊◊◊ for freedom program directly out of his chambers that had a damn camera in it. I'm interested to see what else comes to light. The judge seems to be quite the douche for sure.

 

[shemp]

unless this is a seriously ◊◊◊◊◊◊ up town.

I'd guess that the number of ◊◊◊◊◊◊ up towns is greater than the number that aren't. There's lots of Harper Valleys and Peyton Places.

 

[Darat]

Yeah - often the smaller the grouping the more intense the politics get, the most politically intense grouping I've ever been involved in was a local community group I was part of, literally the smallest thing took on the mien of the most important thing in the universe: I will burn you out of your home if you put out an additional row of chairs at the next meeting.

 

[Blue Mountain]

A quip I saw one time: "University politics are so vicious precisely because the stakes involved are so small." (Attributed to Henry Kissinger, but quips like this are very commonly misattributed.)