Jussie Smollet Trial

SuburbanTurkey said:
What more do you want?
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I want to see justice done. Why do you want less than that?

He went from sympathetic figure to laughing stock. Even if he beat the charges somehow, it's hard to imagine how'd he would ever recover his reputation.
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Known scumbags recover their reputation all the time. Bill Ayers, for example. Che Guevara, for another. Honestly I don't begrudge the court of public opinion its idiosyncrasies. But when the law is broken I do like to a court of law take up the case.

I don't think the initial instinct to believe people when they claim to be victims of crimes is an incorrect one.
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We aren't just creatures of instinct, we're also creatures of reason. What sets humans apart from other animals is our ability to set instinct aside and use reason to engage with the world around us. Anyone who let their instinct guide them, without examining the nature of the claim and applying reason to it is choosing to be no better than a brute animal. Why would you choose that?

The local politics and coverup is definitely something that stinks bad.
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All the more reason why an acquittal would be tragic.
 
theprestige said:
I want to see justice done. Why do you want less than that?


Known scumbags recover their reputation all the time. Bill Ayers, for example. Che Guevara, for another. Honestly I don't begrudge the court of public opinion its idiosyncrasies. But when the law is broken I do like to a court of law take up the case.


We aren't just creatures of instinct, we're also creatures of reason. What sets humans apart from other animals is our ability to set instinct aside and use reason to engage with the world around us. Anyone who let their instinct guide them, without examining the nature of the claim and applying reason to it is choosing to be no better than a brute animal. Why would you choose that?


All the more reason why an acquittal would be tragic.
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Who said I want less.

It would be funny if he walked just because it's the most ridiculous outcome. A guilty seems appropriate, and the obvious conclusion IMO.
 
This case reminds me of an idea that I think has a lot of merit: Hate crime hoaxes are effectively hate crimes themselves, and should be subject to the same charges and sentences.
 
The J-man will make it unscathed. He'll spin this as mixed up on dope with those wild and crazy Nigerians. He'll make it a redemption tale.

The Osindarios should be toxic, but I've been surprised before at how many people gush over celebrities, no matter how tainted. The Kardashian's spring to mind.

The brothers should be seen as incompetent rats who can't be trusted. Probably they'll score a TV deal anyway.
 
Thermal said:
The J-man will make it unscathed. He'll spin this as mixed up on dope with those wild and crazy Nigerians. He'll make it a redemption tale.

The Osindarios should be toxic, but I've been surprised before at how many people gush over celebrities, no matter how tainted. The Kardashian's spring to mind.

The brothers should be seen as incompetent rats who can't be trusted. Probably they'll score a TV deal anyway.
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I don't see that tale of redemption occurring. He is too self-absorbed to come clean. The Gay Tupac and Black Cary Grant? I mean, how full of himself must this guy be?

He tried to impeach these nobody brother's character...by absolutely incinerating his own.
 
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Fun memories...

Biden:

What happened today to @JussieSmollett must never be tolerated in this country. We must stand up and demand that we no longer give this hate safe harbor; that homophobia and racism have no place on our streets or in our hearts. We are with you, Jussie.
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Harris:

@JussieSmollett is one of the kindest, most gentle human beings I know. I’m praying for his quick recovery. This was an attempted modern day lynching. No one should have to fear for their life because of their sexuality or color of their skin. We must confront this hate.
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Cory Booker:

The vicious attack on actor Jussie Smollett was an attempted modern-day lynching. I'm glad he's safe.

To those in Congress who don't feel the urgency to pass our Anti-Lynching bill designating lynching as a federal hate crime– I urge you to pay attention.
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So much virtue, so little time. :D
 
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Thermal said:
The J-man will make it unscathed. He'll spin this as mixed up on dope with those wild and crazy Nigerians. He'll make it a redemption tale.

The Osindarios should be toxic, but I've been surprised before at how many people gush over celebrities, no matter how tainted. The Kardashian's spring to mind.

The brothers should be seen as incompetent rats who can't be trusted. Probably they'll score a TV deal anyway.
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I dunno. The Osundarios could have legitimately been too stupid to realize what Jussie was roping them into. Theirs was not the calculated big lie that Smollett conceived and pushed. Hopefully they'll find gainful employment somewhere and put this unpleasantness behind them. And hopefully Smollett never will, but I fear you are right about him.
 
theprestige said:
This case reminds me of an idea that I think has a lot of merit: Hate crime hoaxes are effectively hate crimes themselves, and should be subject to the same charges and sentences.
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I agree it should be treated more seriously than it is, but not as seriously as an actual act of violence.
 
Thermal said:
The J-man will make it unscathed. He'll spin this as mixed up on dope with those wild and crazy Nigerians. He'll make it a redemption tale.

The Osindarios should be toxic, but I've been surprised before at how many people gush over celebrities, no matter how tainted. The Kardashian's spring to mind.

The brothers should be seen as incompetent rats who can't be trusted. Probably they'll score a TV deal anyway.
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Compared to Smollett, the brothers are models of integrity.
 
trustbutverify said:
Compared to Smollett, the brothers are models of integrity.
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Agreed, but they rolled on Jussie. That's the unforgivable. The prosection's case was almost entirely circumstantial, but they went ahead and squealed like little piggies. If they stuck to a consistent story with Smollett, no matter how outlandish, they all would have walked.

Would you get involved with anyone in anything who will sing to the police at the slightest prodding? I wouldn't.
 
Warp12 said:
I don't see that tale of redemption occurring. He is too self-absorbed to come clean. The Gay Tupac and Black Cary Grant? I mean, how full of himself must this guy be?

He tried to impeach these nobody brother's character...by absolutely incinerating his own.
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Ya, full of himself. But the brothers squealed first. I don't see Le Smollett Jussie as having any other option after that. First rule of Hoax Club is we don't talk to the 5-0 about Hoax Club.
 
Thermal said:
Agreed, but they rolled on Jussie. That's the unforgivable. The prosection's case was almost entirely circumstantial, but they went ahead and squealed like little piggies. If they stuck to a consistent story with Smollett, no matter how outlandish, they all would have walked.

Would you get involved with anyone in anything who will sing to the police at the slightest prodding? I wouldn't.
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Good?
 
Thermal said:
Agreed, but they rolled on Jussie. That's the unforgivable. The prosection's case was almost entirely circumstantial, but they went ahead and squealed like little piggies. If they stuck to a consistent story with Smollett, no matter how outlandish, they all would have walked.

Would you get involved with anyone in anything who will sing to the police at the slightest prodding? I wouldn't.
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You seem to have some weird ass beef with the Osundarios, that I want no part of. If it's sarcasm, your delivery needs work. If you're trying to make some other point you'd like me to consider seriously, please for the love of reason find some plain English to express it. But if it's what it says on the tin, I have no opinion about that.
 
Thermal said:
Ya, full of himself. But the brothers squealed first. I don't see Le Smollett Jussie as having any other option after that. First rule of Hoax Club is we don't talk to the 5-0 about Hoax Club.
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He's a buffoon and a scumbag. He had another option... he could have told the truth and apologized for his nauseating opportunism. The Osundairos came clean; that was the right thing to do in my book.
 
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trustbutverify said:
He's a buffoon and a scumbag. He had another option... he could have told the truth and apologized for his nauseating opportunism. The Osundairos came clean; that was the right thing to do in my book.
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Which, in and of itself, speaks volumes on Smollet's character in the end, above all else. He'll be trying to milk this as travesty of justice for all it's worth before sunrise, mark my words.
 
trustbutverify said:
Good?
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theprestige said:
You seem to have some weird ass beef with the Osundarios, that I want no part of. If it's sarcasm, your delivery needs work. If you're trying to make some other point you'd like me to consider seriously, please for the love of reason find some plain English to express it. But if it's what it says on the tin, I have no opinion about that.
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trustbutverify said:
He's a buffoon and a scumbag. He had another option... he could have told the truth and apologized for his nauseating opportunism. The Osundairos came clean; that was the right thing to do in my book.
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As I see things, integrity is someone's most important trait. Even if you are running some half-assed hoax caper, you have to be good to your word, and be able to be trusted when push comes to shove. I wouldn't have gotten involved in these three's little madcap adventure, but if I had, you could count on me to stick to my guns with the same confidence that the sun will rise in the east.

A hommie is only as good as his word. We have arguments on the forum all the time about honesty and it's high value (except among our cowardly eyelash-fluttering contingent). You have to be able to trust someone's word to be solid, or they are literally worthless.

And the Osindarios didn't have an attack of conscience and come clean; it was only when they got leaned on. So they get dead zero points for Doing the Right Thing, because they 110% didn't, until it served their personal interests. Fair weather ******** have no value as people..
 
Thermal said:
As I see things, integrity is someone's most important trait. Even if you are running some half-assed hoax caper, you have to be good to your word, and be able to be trusted when push comes to shove. I wouldn't have gotten involved in these three's little madcap adventure, but if I had, you could count on me to stick to my guns with the same confidence that the sun will rise in the east.

A hommie is only as good as his word. We have arguments on the forum all the time about honesty and it's high value (except among our cowardly eyelash-fluttering contingent). You have to be able to trust someone's word to be solid, or they are literally worthless.

And the Osindarios didn't have an attack of conscience and come clean; it was only when they got leaned on. So they get dead zero points for Doing the Right Thing, because they 110% didn't, until it served their personal interests. Fair weather ******** have no value as people..
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You mean busted. The cops had them, dead to rights. All evidence pointed to them being the attackers. No one else. When presented with this information, Smollet refused to press charges against them. But it didn't matter, the cops still had everything necessary to charge them with the crime, and Smollet wasn't paying them anywhere near enough to go to jail for him. What else were they to do?
 
Mike! said:
You mean busted. The cops had them, dead to rights. All evidence pointed to them being the attackers. No one else. When presented with this information, Smollet refused to press charges against them. But it didn't matter, the cops still had everything necessary to charge them with the crime, and Smollet wasn't paying them anywhere near enough to go to jail for him. What else were they to do?
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Except it was all circumstantial, and JS (the "victim") said it was white boys. Smollett surely would have backed them up on whatever cockamamie cover story they came up with, and there was simply not enough evidence to nail anyone. I mean, OJ walked, right?
 
Thermal said:
And the Osindarios didn't have an attack of conscience and come clean; it was only when they got leaned on. So they get dead zero points for Doing the Right Thing, because they 110% didn't, until it served their personal interests. Fair weather ******** have no value as people..
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I couldn't care less if their motivations were less than pure. They ended up doing the right thing- by telling the plain, simple truth. They had every right to make the best deal possible for themselves. If Smollett had a shred of actual "integrity", he would have confessed as soon as he saw the police closing in on his useful idiots. Instead, he went around the country, yelling about what an amazing superhero he was, more than happy to let others take the fall for his ego glorification and greed.
 
trustbutverify said:
I couldn't care less if their motivations were less than pure. They ended up doing the right thing- by telling the plain, simple truth. They had every right to make the best deal possible for themselves. If Smollett had a shred of actual "integrity", he would have confessed as soon as he saw the police closing in on his useful idiots. Instead, he went around the country, yelling about what an amazing superhero he was, more than happy to let others take the fall for his ego glorification and greed.
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Oh, I'm not suggesting Smollett is in any way better. Au contraire, he is morally worse, agreed. The Osindarios though, cannot be trusted. I mean, would you trust them for anything whatsoever? They might be scamming you, or reporting something you did to whoever they could. They'd sell your ass in a heartbeat.

Smollett, OTOH, actually refused to press charges against them, even as their caper fell apart. That's actually stand-up behavior, as weird as it seems. He didn't throw them under the bus till they squealed like little piggies. At that point, they don't matter and it's fair to **** on them.

I wouldn't expect Smollett to be anything but a self absorbed egomaniac that wanted to be the Gay Tupac, and would happily lie to give that impression. I can trust him for that, and in that weird way, I can trust him. Not so the brothers. They play whatever side of the fence works out for them at the time
 
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Thermal said:
Oh, I'm not suggesting Smollett is in any way better. Au contraire, he is morally worse, agreed. The Osindarios though, cannot be trusted. I mean, would you trust them for anything whatsoever? They might be scamming you, or reporting something you did to whoever they could. They'd sell your ass in a heartbeat.

Smollett, OTOH, actually refused to press charges against them, even as their caper fell apart. That's actually stand-up behavior, as weird as it seems. He didn't throw them under the bus till they squealed like little piggies. At that point, they don't matter and it's fair to **** on them.

I wouldn't expect Smollett to be anything but a self absorbed egomaniac that wanted to be the Gay Tupac, and would happily lie to give that impression. I can trust him for that, and in that weird way, I can trust him. Not so the brothers. They play whatever side of the fence works out for them at the time
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You are privileging loyalty to an antisocial scumbag over loyalty to the society in which you live and move. Why?

Why do you hate repentance?

Why do you think scumbags have a moral claim worth honoring?

Why do you demonize a change of heart by those exploited?

Your argument condemns slaves who turn against their "owners".
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<SNIP>
Edited for rule 0 and rule 12.
 
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Thermal said:
As I see things, integrity is someone's most important trait. Even if you are running some half-assed hoax caper, you have to be good to your word, and be able to be trusted when push comes to shove. I wouldn't have gotten involved in these three's little madcap adventure, but if I had, you could count on me to stick to my guns with the same confidence that the sun will rise in the east.

A hommie is only as good as his word. We have arguments on the forum all the time about honesty and it's high value (except among our cowardly eyelash-fluttering contingent). You have to be able to trust someone's word to be solid, or they are literally worthless.

And the Osindarios didn't have an attack of conscience and come clean; it was only when they got leaned on. So they get dead zero points for Doing the Right Thing, because they 110% didn't, until it served their personal interests. Fair weather ******** have no value as people..
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"There is no honor among thieves." - Somebody, a long time ago.
 
theprestige said:
You are privileging loyalty to an antisocial scumbag over loyalty to the society in which you live and move. Why?

Why do you hate repentance?

Why do you think scumbags have a moral claim worth honoring?

Why do you demonize a change of heart by those exploited?

Your argument condemns slaves who turn against their "owners".

Edited by zooterkin: 
<SNIP>
Edited for rule 0 and rule 12.
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Agreed. That is a strange argument to me too. Seems like only other criminals should care about the integrity of these dopes :boggled:

This was my favorite thread (the original one) due solely to the ridiculously stupid behavior of Smollett, and the celebrities and so-called public servants who not only believed him but actually tried to help him.

Jussie did everything he could do to ensure he looked as guilty as possible. Maybe it was drugs. I can't imagine anyone handling himself any worse.
 
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Waxing a tad hyperbolic here, are you not?

theprestige said:
You are privileging loyalty to an antisocial scumbag over loyalty to the society in which you live and move. Why?
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I am not. It has nothing to do with the Jussmeister or society. It has to do with the Osinarios being trustworthy.

Why do you hate repentance?
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I do not. Repentance is a noble thing. Snitching when caught to avoid threats of punishment is not repentance. Repentance comes willingly from within.

Why do you think scumbags have a moral claim worth honoring?
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...wut?

Why do you demonize a change of heart by those exploited?
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I know of no one exploited, nor having had a change of heart, nor being demonized. I know of willing hustlers, with full knowledge of their actions and the wrongness of them, who only saw the proverbial light when in the ******* interrogation room.

Better question: Why do you fawn over these two grown-ass men like they are dewey-eyed innocents? They were drug dealing, lying, cheating weasels. What's with this halo you are trying to pry over their horns?

Your argument condemns slaves who turn against their "owners".
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My argument assumes a willing mutual trust relationship. Please tell us all about how your analogous slaves were in such a willing mutual trust relationship. With feeling, if you please.

Edited by zooterkin: 
<SNIP>
Edited for rule 0 and rule 12.
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Edited by zooterkin: 
<SNIP>
Response to rule 0 and rule 12 breach.
 
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So the one charge of the six he was found not guilty of was "making a false police report that he was a victim of an aggravated battery". How does that work? If the whole thing was found to be a hoax, and he in fact filed a report of an aggravated battery, isn't that a shoe-in for guilty?
 
Mike! said:
You mean busted. The cops had them, dead to rights. All evidence pointed to them being the attackers. No one else. When presented with this information, Smollet refused to press charges against them. But it didn't matter, the cops still had everything necessary to charge them with the crime, and Smollet wasn't paying them anywhere near enough to go to jail for him. What else were they to do?
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General questions: once the police had located the brothers and determined they were the ones who had attacked Smollet, isn't it up to the DA to press charges? Does the DA actually need a "go ahead" from the victim, or a complaint? I this case, as far as I'm concerned they have a complaint: Smollet said he was attacked by two people, and the police found the two people who had attacked them.
 
Thermal said:
So the one charge of the six he was found not guilty of was "making a false police report that he was a victim of an aggravated battery". How does that work? If the whole thing was found to be a hoax, and he in fact filed a report of an aggravated battery, isn't that a shoe-in for guilty?
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I'd have to see the details of exactly what he said. Maybe there was some ambiguity in what he said to detective Graves, or the evidence wasn't quite as strong as for the other statements, and the jurors decided to let that one go.

The charges were all for false statements made to police officers.

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/nation/what-charges-does-jussie-smollett-face-at-trial

Each count of disorderly conduct represents an instance during Jan. 29, 2019, and then on Feb. 14, 2019, in which Smollett allegedly lied to police.

Count 1 accuses him of telling responding Chicago Police Officer Muhammed Baig at around 2:45 a.m., some 45 minutes after the purported attack, that he was the victim of a hate crime. He said two attackers put a rope around his neck. Count 2 refers to Smollett telling the same officer he was a victim of a battery, describing attackers beating and pouring bleach on him.

Counts 3 and 4 are when Smollett made the same claims but to a different officer, Kimberly Murray, later that morning, at just before 6 a.m.

Count 5 accuses Smollett of again telling Murray at around 7:15 p.m. that he was the victim of a battery. Count 6 refers to Smollett reporting on Feb. 14, 2019, to detective Robert Graves that he’d been a victim of an aggravated battery.
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It may be the case that by Feb. 14 he was aware that the police didn't believe his story (and perhaps already lawyered-up), and so he was more careful about what he said on that occasion. That is only speculation though. The 5 guilty charges were for the statements he made initially and on the following day. The last one was over 2 weeks later.
 
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Mike! said:
Looks like whatever sentence awaits him, it'll be late January at the soonest before anyone finds out.





https://www.chicagotribune.com/news...0211209-ygk6goeptjggrozvbgasqpxd5u-story.html
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I wonder what he will get. These are felonies, but only Class 4. Probably concurrent sentences because these are all basically the same crime.

I really hate false crime reports. But he didn't accuse a specific person, which is a large mitigating factor. It was only a report of a simple assault. It wasn't a bomb threat or something that caused a huge disruption or something to further a financial fraud or anything like that. This is on the lower end.

The aggravating factors are that in 2007 he was arrested for DUI and falsely gave his brother's name, which is a somewhat similar crime of providing false information to police. He chose to perpetuate his lie in court rather than accept a plea deal (especially considering that he had the prosecutor in his back pocket and got a sweet-heart deal). And, although it can seem a bit odd, he is famous and went on television and whatnot sharing this lie. And especially that this false report was for an alleged hate crime. I think those things have an impact on society larger than a normal false police report.

This would probably normally be just probation. If I were the judge I think I would go further. Maybe 14 days in jail to be served over the next year at his discretion. Do it all at once or every weekend for a couple months or whatever. An inconvenience the same way he created an inconvenience. Maybe 80 hours community service. Restitution for the cost of the investigation. And a couple years probation.

He will probably get less than that. Possibly some in-home confinement because that has much less burden on the jail system. Although I think a few days in jail would do him some good. He probably gets a fine and probation.
 
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Mike! said:
Looks like whatever sentence awaits him, it'll be late January at the soonest before anyone finds out.





https://www.chicagotribune.com/news...0211209-ygk6goeptjggrozvbgasqpxd5u-story.html
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They have to wait a month and a half...for the lawyers to discuss scheduling? Couldn't their secretaries handle that like, while they were still in the courtroom? The sheer volume of time that white-collar people spend wasting time is just stunning.

So the six counts were for the same thing done at different times. Ok, I didn't realize that. Seems kind of like charging for individual punches in a fight, but whatever.

The main thing I'd still like to know is how Chicago PD had the superabundance of resources to dedicate so much of their personnel to this case. I mean, if it was you or me, wouldn't we get one noob who would say "don't get your hopes up. We'll call you if we find anything", then never think about it again.

Good to hear that Chicago Illinois is so free of crime, yet its citizens happy to fund a platoon of detectives to chase around whatever trivial **** comes along. I sure hope that if I ever lose my wallet, it's in Chicago.
 
Puppycow said:
I'd have to see the details of exactly what he said. Maybe there was some ambiguity in what he said to detective Graves, or the evidence wasn't quite as strong as for the other statements, and the jurors decided to let that one go.

The charges were all for false statements made to police officers.

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/nation/what-charges-does-jussie-smollett-face-at-trial



It may be the case that by Feb. 14 he was aware that the police didn't believe his story (and perhaps already lawyered-up), and so he was more careful about what he said on that occasion. That is only speculation though. The 5 guilty charges were for the statements he made initially and on the following day. The last one was over 2 weeks later.
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So Smollett is charged with making a false report of battery. Did he tho? Let's get all Kyle Rittenhouse for a sec and dissect the language:

Battery is defined in Illinois thusly:

(720 ILCS 5/12-3) (from Ch. 38, par. 12-3)
Sec. 12-3. Battery.
(a) A person commits battery if he or she knowingly without legal justification by any means (1) causes bodily harm to an individual or (2) makes physical contact of an insulting or provoking nature with an individual.
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Aggravated, in Smollett's case seems to mean it was claimed to happen on a "public way".

Well...this did happen, right? It was with Jussie's knowledge and consent, but the law doesn't seem to preclude that.

https://www.ilga.gov/legislation/ilcs/ilcs4.asp?DocName=072000050HArt%2E+12%2C+Subdiv%2E+5&ActID=1876&ChapterID=53&SeqStart=21300000&SeqEnd=23400000
 
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Thermal said:
So Smollett is charged with making a false report of battery. Did he tho? Let's get all Kyle Rittenhouse for a sec and dissect the language:

Battery is defined in Illinois thusly:



Aggravated, in Smollett's case seems to mean it was claimed to happen on a "public way".

Well...this did happen, right? It was with Jussie's knowledge and consent, but the law doesn't seem to preclude that.

https://www.ilga.gov/legislation/ilcs/ilcs4.asp?DocName=072000050HArt%2E+12%2C+Subdiv%2E+5&ActID=1876&ChapterID=53&SeqStart=21300000&SeqEnd=23400000
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I pretty sure consent grants legal justification. Like boxing.
 
I'm wondering just how many offers he is getting for a gay porn gig?

After that steamy testimony, it only seems logical.
 
The defense has already stated their intent to appeal. On what grounds, who knows.
 
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