bknight
Master Poster
If you don't write it down, they can't prosecute you later.
Senator I can't remember/don't recall those conversations.
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[Continuation] JFK Conspiracy Theories VIII
- Thread starter JTF
- Start date
Senator I can't remember/don't recall those conversations.
The usual Conspiracy crap. Circular logic. Basically the arguement that since there is little to no evidence of a Conspiracy that is evidence of a Conspiracy because we already "know" there was a Conspiracy so little to no evidence is evidence / proof of a Conspiracy?!
And of course we will get allied to this lots and lots of lies, distortions and fantasy.
Axxman300
Philosopher
The Intercept just ran a story wherein they used random bits from the latest release to weave the same old worn-out CT that Oswald was a CIA asset, part of MK Ultra, dosed with LSD, and sent to Russia as a spy, blah, blah, blah. The article is so stupid its embarrassing, full of long debunked claims.
But the Intercept can't live in a world where a Marxist sympathizer killed JFK, so they need a CT instead.
But the Intercept can't live in a world where a Marxist sympathizer killed JFK, so they need a CT instead.
Allen773
Graduate Poster
That, and/or they know what drives the clicks, shares, subscriptions, donations….
Axxman300
Philosopher
What's the point of demanding the declassification of all the JFK documents if you're just going to ignore them because they prove it wasn't a conspiracy (or at the least, prove the CIA/FBI wasn't behind it)?
We see this with every conspiracy: 9-11, TWA-800, Pearl Harbor, etc. And it's getting worse with the "True Crime/ Web Sleuth" communities on social media where they build a phantom case, pick on some poor guy, and when the cops arrest the real perp, they automatically claim the cops arrested the wrong guy. This in spite of the fact they never had access to all the evidence, and treated rumor as fact.
And I am still open to the idea that Oswald had some kind of link or relationship to a Cuban exile cell in Dallas. The new document release details the FBI's look into the local group, thinking the exact same thing. They came up dry. So I can only work with the facts, and all the facts point to Oswald working alone.
Allen773
Graduate Poster
But why was Oswald allowed to come back with a Russian wife? What about George de Monderschedt (sp?)? What about Oswald’s time in the Marines and the U-2 program and radar and Allen Dulles and the Bush family and all the people in Dallas who hated JFK?
And how CONVENIENT for the CIA/FBI/Deep State to blame a young Communist sympathizer for the assassination of a President who couldn’t be controlled by the Deep State and military-industrial complex and their Mafia allies and the Mossad!!! How convenient indeed!
And why would you trust the CIA and FBI to honestly investigate anything? Dont ya know that they are the Deep State that killed Kennedy along with the military?! Typical government/Langley shill. I bet you believe in the Magic Bullet too!!!
/s
How much of it have I covered? I feel like I’ve barely scratched the surface of JFK assassination CT’s and their talking points. Maybe it was LBJ all along….or the Secret Service, accidentally or otherwise…or Jackie, who also killed Marilyn Monroe!
Can’t trust that philandering husband of hers! 
Or, maybe it was the online meme that’s popular among the younger generation, “JFK’s head just did that.” A lot of people spontaneously combust every year, it’s just not reported, or so the Spinal Tap guys have said…
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bknight
Master Poster
But why was Oswald allowed to come back with a Russian wife? What about George de Monderschedt (sp?)? What about Oswald’s time in the Marines and the U-2 program and radar and Allen Dulles and the Bush family and all the people in Dallas who hated JFK?
And how CONVENIENT for the CIA/FBI/Deep State to blame a young Communist sympathizer for the assassination of a President who couldn’t be controlled by the Deep State and military-industrial complex and their Mafia allies and the Mossad!!! How convenient indeed!
And why would you trust the CIA and FBI to honestly investigate anything? Dont ya know that they are the Deep State that killed Kennedy along with the military?! Typical government/Langley shill. I bet you believe in the Magic Bullet too!!!
/s
How much of it have I covered? I feel like I’ve barely scratched the surface of JFK assassination CT’s and their talking points. Maybe it was LBJ all along….or the Secret Service, accidentally or otherwise…or Jackie, who also killed Marilyn Monroe!
Or, maybe it was the online meme that’s popular among the younger generation, “JFK’s head just did that.” A lot of people spontaneously combust every year, it’s just not reported, or so the Spinal Tap guys have said…
No investigation will be 100% accurate and answer all possible questions. Like most investigations you go with the best evidence available to attach a person to a crime. You propose a "Deep State", but you have not given any facts to back up what if anything is the Deep State or that it exists. Again you go with the best evidence you have. You know there was another investigation a few years later and they did their own work, not just being a puppet for the CIA/FBI and their conclusion based on an inaccurate interpretation of a dictabelt that LHO did it with an accomplice, of course during the passing years the dictbelt evidence was disproven so they would change their conclusion was LHO did it and there is/was no conspiracy.
Axxman300
Philosopher
You start with the crime scene. Kennedy was shot twice from behind. The bullets were 6.5x52mm. A Carcano rifle chambered in 6.5x52mm was located on the 6th floor of the nearby Texas Schoolbook Depository, along with three spent shells next to a concealed position among boxes at an open window. A quick head-count of TBSD employees comes up one short, Lee Oswald. His name goes out on the radio since he worked on the 6th floor. Officer J.D. Tippit spots a man matching Oswald's description, and stops to question him. He is shot by Oswald, who flees downtown, and takes cover in the Texas Theater. During apprehension, Oswald attempts to shoot a second DPD officer with the same gun he'd used on Tippit.
The Carcano comes back as sold to Oswald. The .38 was bought by Oswald. He even had his wife take some pictures of him carrying both weapons.
This does not need Sherlock Holmes or high-tech CSI levels of investigation to solve the case. Oswald's guns. Oswald was present at both crimes. Oswald's finger prints are on both guns (they are still on the Carcano at the National Archives). He attempted to shoot a second cop.
That's it. How is he NOT guilty?
All the things which followed: Jack Ruby, the Warren Commission getting the runaround from the CIA, Mark Lane and his fantasies. None of them change the facts of this case. The third bullet? Who cares? It didn't hit anyone, and while it's like #7 World Trade Center - a fun sidebar investigation, it doesn't change where the other two bullets went.
I'll say this again...
We're heading into 2024. Lone gunmen, active shooters, angry, sad men with powerful guns killing people at random on the streets, in shopping malls, and schools is now so common that they don't stay in the headlines longer than a few days. The things which motivated Oswald (quest for fame, depression with status in life, anger at phantom enemies, a messed up childhood) would motivate Charles Whitman, James Huberty, Harris & Klebold, Adam Lanza, and most recently Salvador Ramos, and Anderon Aldrich to demonstrate how pathetic they were/are to the world by killing strangers.
Lee Harvey Oswald was not a "Lone Gunman", Lee Harvey Oswald was the FIRST GUNMAN.
The Carcano comes back as sold to Oswald. The .38 was bought by Oswald. He even had his wife take some pictures of him carrying both weapons.
This does not need Sherlock Holmes or high-tech CSI levels of investigation to solve the case. Oswald's guns. Oswald was present at both crimes. Oswald's finger prints are on both guns (they are still on the Carcano at the National Archives). He attempted to shoot a second cop.
That's it. How is he NOT guilty?
All the things which followed: Jack Ruby, the Warren Commission getting the runaround from the CIA, Mark Lane and his fantasies. None of them change the facts of this case. The third bullet? Who cares? It didn't hit anyone, and while it's like #7 World Trade Center - a fun sidebar investigation, it doesn't change where the other two bullets went.
I'll say this again...
We're heading into 2024. Lone gunmen, active shooters, angry, sad men with powerful guns killing people at random on the streets, in shopping malls, and schools is now so common that they don't stay in the headlines longer than a few days. The things which motivated Oswald (quest for fame, depression with status in life, anger at phantom enemies, a messed up childhood) would motivate Charles Whitman, James Huberty, Harris & Klebold, Adam Lanza, and most recently Salvador Ramos, and Anderon Aldrich to demonstrate how pathetic they were/are to the world by killing strangers.
Lee Harvey Oswald was not a "Lone Gunman", Lee Harvey Oswald was the FIRST GUNMAN.
The Common Potato
Muse
On the first day of Christmas, a Nutcase sent to me
An Echo in Daley Plaza
On the second day of Christmas, A Nutcase sent to me
Two Umbrella Hobos
And an Echo in Daley Plaza
On the third day of Christmas, a Nutcase sent to me
Three Missing Brains
Two Umbrella Hobos
And an Echo in Daley Plaza
On the fourth day of Christmas, a Nutcase sent to me
Four fake Oswalds
Three Missing Brains
Two Umbrells Hobos
And an Echo in Daley Plaza
On the fifth day of Christmas, A Nutcase sent to me
Five Magic Bullets (Five Magic Bullets)
Four Fake Oswalds
Three Missing Brains
Two Umbrella Hobos
And an Echo in Daley Plaza
On the sixth day of Christmas, a Nutcase sent to me
Six Echo chambers
Five Magic Bullets (Five Magic Bullets)
Four Fake Oswalds
Three Missing Brains
Two Umbrella Hobos
And an Echo in Daley Plaza
On the seventh day of Christmas, a Nutcase sent to me
Seven Dictatapes recording
Six Echo chambers
Five Magic Bullets (Five Magic Bullets)
Four Fake Oswalds
Three Missing Brains
Two Umbrella Hobos
And an Echo in Daley Plaza
On the eighth day of Christmas, a Nutcase sent to me
Eight Doctors lying
Seven Dictatapes recording
Six Echo chambers
Five Magic Bullets (Five Magic Bullets)
Four Fake Oswalds
Three Missing Brains
Two Umbrella Hobos
And an Echo in Daley Plaza
On the ninth day of Christmas, a Nutcase sent to me
Nine Deep State operatives
Eight Doctors lying
Seven Dictatapes recording
Six Echo chambers
Five Magic Bullets (Five Magic Bullets)
Four Fake Oswalds
Three Missing Brains
Two Umbrella Hobos
And an Echo in Daley Plaza
On the tenth day of Christmas, a Nutcase sent to me
Ten Witnesses a-dying
Nine Deep State operatives
Eight Doctors lying
Seven Dictatapes recording
Six Echo chambers
Five Magic Bullets (Five Magic Bullets)
Four Fake Oswalds
Three Missing Brains
Two Umbrella Hobos
And an Echo in Daley Plaza
On the eleventh day of Christmas, a Nutcase sent to me
Eleven snipers sniping
Ten Witnesses a-dying
Nine Deep State operatives
Eight Doctors lying
Seven Dictatapes recording
Six Echo chambers
Five Magic Bullets (Five Magic Bullets)
Four Fake Oswalds
Three Missing Brains
Two Umbrella Hobos
And an Echo in Daley Plaza
On the twelfth day of Christmas, a Nutcase sent to me
Twelve Ranters ranting
Eleven snipers sniping
Ten Witnesses a-dying
Nine Deep State operatives
Eight Doctors lying
Seven Dictatapes recording
Six Echo chambers
Five Magic Bullets (Five Magic Bullets)
Four Fake Oswalds
Three Missing Brains
Two Umbrella Hobos
And an Echo in Daley Plaza
An Echo in Daley Plaza
On the second day of Christmas, A Nutcase sent to me
Two Umbrella Hobos
And an Echo in Daley Plaza
On the third day of Christmas, a Nutcase sent to me
Three Missing Brains
Two Umbrella Hobos
And an Echo in Daley Plaza
On the fourth day of Christmas, a Nutcase sent to me
Four fake Oswalds
Three Missing Brains
Two Umbrells Hobos
And an Echo in Daley Plaza
On the fifth day of Christmas, A Nutcase sent to me
Five Magic Bullets (Five Magic Bullets)
Four Fake Oswalds
Three Missing Brains
Two Umbrella Hobos
And an Echo in Daley Plaza
On the sixth day of Christmas, a Nutcase sent to me
Six Echo chambers
Five Magic Bullets (Five Magic Bullets)
Four Fake Oswalds
Three Missing Brains
Two Umbrella Hobos
And an Echo in Daley Plaza
On the seventh day of Christmas, a Nutcase sent to me
Seven Dictatapes recording
Six Echo chambers
Five Magic Bullets (Five Magic Bullets)
Four Fake Oswalds
Three Missing Brains
Two Umbrella Hobos
And an Echo in Daley Plaza
On the eighth day of Christmas, a Nutcase sent to me
Eight Doctors lying
Seven Dictatapes recording
Six Echo chambers
Five Magic Bullets (Five Magic Bullets)
Four Fake Oswalds
Three Missing Brains
Two Umbrella Hobos
And an Echo in Daley Plaza
On the ninth day of Christmas, a Nutcase sent to me
Nine Deep State operatives
Eight Doctors lying
Seven Dictatapes recording
Six Echo chambers
Five Magic Bullets (Five Magic Bullets)
Four Fake Oswalds
Three Missing Brains
Two Umbrella Hobos
And an Echo in Daley Plaza
On the tenth day of Christmas, a Nutcase sent to me
Ten Witnesses a-dying
Nine Deep State operatives
Eight Doctors lying
Seven Dictatapes recording
Six Echo chambers
Five Magic Bullets (Five Magic Bullets)
Four Fake Oswalds
Three Missing Brains
Two Umbrella Hobos
And an Echo in Daley Plaza
On the eleventh day of Christmas, a Nutcase sent to me
Eleven snipers sniping
Ten Witnesses a-dying
Nine Deep State operatives
Eight Doctors lying
Seven Dictatapes recording
Six Echo chambers
Five Magic Bullets (Five Magic Bullets)
Four Fake Oswalds
Three Missing Brains
Two Umbrella Hobos
And an Echo in Daley Plaza
On the twelfth day of Christmas, a Nutcase sent to me
Twelve Ranters ranting
Eleven snipers sniping
Ten Witnesses a-dying
Nine Deep State operatives
Eight Doctors lying
Seven Dictatapes recording
Six Echo chambers
Five Magic Bullets (Five Magic Bullets)
Four Fake Oswalds
Three Missing Brains
Two Umbrella Hobos
And an Echo in Daley Plaza
Allen773
Graduate Poster
Something semi-CT that Jefferson Morley has focused on and I've been thinking about:
The CIA's Mexico City station chief Winston Scott sent a cable to CIA headquarters on September 8, 1963 asking for more information on Oswald, in the wake of his recent visits to the Soviet and Cuban consulates/embassies in Mexico City. Two days later, CIA HQ sent a response, drafted, vetted, and approved by several Directorate of Operations officers (including then-DO Director and later CIA Director Richard Helms's top deputy Tom Karamessines), which said that the latest CIA Headquarters information on Oswald was a State Department report from May 1962.
Except that was not true--CIA HQ had received, and several high-ranking DO officers had read and reviewed, two FBI reports about Oswald the previous month (September 1963). The first FBI report was from James Hosty in the Dallas Field Office, reporting on Oswald's Communist beliefs and interests including his subscription to a Communist magazine. The second FBI report was about his New Orleans arrest along with a few anti-Castro Cuban exiles he had gotten into a fight with. Those exiles were among those funded and to some extent operationally directed by the CIA.
The CIA's Counterintelligence staff were interested in Oswald--as one would expect them to be, considering that the man had defected to the Soviet Union, married a Russian woman, then came back to the US with her and continued to engage in pro-Communist activities, creating his own chapter of the Fair Play for Cuba Committee, subscribing to several Communist magazines, and, as his trip to Mexico City demonstrated, seeking desperately to ingratiate himself to both Soviet and Cuban diplomatic and consular personnel.
So why did they (the Directorate of Operations at CIA Headquarters) fail to mention what they actually knew about Oswald as of October 8-10, 1963 to their own Mexico City station? Why did they fail to mention any of what they had learned from the FBI just the previous month, along with what the Agency-funded exile groups were reporting based on some of their members' own interactions with Oswald in New Orleans?
This isn't even about a failure to share information with another agency like the FBI (like Alec Station and the Counterterrorist Center famously failed to do so regarding Nawaf al-Hazmi and Khalid al-Midhar until a couple of weeks before 9/11--and even then, they didn't tell them everything, and certainly didn't tell them that they had known about their US visas and travel to the US for over a year by that point). This was an internal Agency failure from Headquarters, from officers in the Directorate of Operations, to share relevant---and much more recent!---information with their own station chief in Mexico City, who was also, of course, a Directorate of Operations man.
Here's Morley:
https://www.history-matters.com/essays/frameup/WhatJaneRomanSaid/WhatJaneRomanSaid_2.htm
https://www.historymatters.com/essays/frameup/WhatJaneRomanSaid/WhatJaneRomanSaid_3.htm
He insinuates some sort of conspiracy cover-up, like that the CIA was trying to use Oswald as some sort of asset (???) or even pre-emptively blame him for the JFK assassination (????????!!!!!). But I find all of that patently ridiculous, of course.
What I do find intriguing is this deep, highly sensitive compartmentalization of Oswald's interactions/altercations with the anti-Castor exiles, and what anyone in those exile groups knew about him in the months and weeks leading up to 11/22/1963---and what they did or did not report to their CIA sponsors, who were themselves deeply involved in some of the Agency's most sensitive, mostly closely held (and to be clear, White House/NSC demanded-and-approved) operations throughout JFK's time in office---namely, the various efforts to murder Castro and otherwise destroy the new Communist regime in Cuba. Perhaps senior people at CIA HQ feared that Oswald's own (undirected by anyone else, to be clear) movements had come just a little too close for comfort to those anti-Castro operations to let anyone know outside a very compartmentalized group of relevant CIA officers with a "need to know"---a group that apparently didn't include the Mexico City station as of October 10, 1963.
Bobby Kennedy certainly feared the possibility of disclosure of a lot of CIA activities regarding Cuba up to 11/22/1963. The resulting investigations could/would implicate him and his brother, aka the President who was murdered by one Lee Harvey Oswald, and Jackie's "Camelot" myth and the broader Kennedy legacy/legend would have been irrevocably tarnished. No wonder so many buy into JFK assassination CTs!
The CIA's Mexico City station chief Winston Scott sent a cable to CIA headquarters on September 8, 1963 asking for more information on Oswald, in the wake of his recent visits to the Soviet and Cuban consulates/embassies in Mexico City. Two days later, CIA HQ sent a response, drafted, vetted, and approved by several Directorate of Operations officers (including then-DO Director and later CIA Director Richard Helms's top deputy Tom Karamessines), which said that the latest CIA Headquarters information on Oswald was a State Department report from May 1962.
Except that was not true--CIA HQ had received, and several high-ranking DO officers had read and reviewed, two FBI reports about Oswald the previous month (September 1963). The first FBI report was from James Hosty in the Dallas Field Office, reporting on Oswald's Communist beliefs and interests including his subscription to a Communist magazine. The second FBI report was about his New Orleans arrest along with a few anti-Castro Cuban exiles he had gotten into a fight with. Those exiles were among those funded and to some extent operationally directed by the CIA.
The CIA's Counterintelligence staff were interested in Oswald--as one would expect them to be, considering that the man had defected to the Soviet Union, married a Russian woman, then came back to the US with her and continued to engage in pro-Communist activities, creating his own chapter of the Fair Play for Cuba Committee, subscribing to several Communist magazines, and, as his trip to Mexico City demonstrated, seeking desperately to ingratiate himself to both Soviet and Cuban diplomatic and consular personnel.
So why did they (the Directorate of Operations at CIA Headquarters) fail to mention what they actually knew about Oswald as of October 8-10, 1963 to their own Mexico City station? Why did they fail to mention any of what they had learned from the FBI just the previous month, along with what the Agency-funded exile groups were reporting based on some of their members' own interactions with Oswald in New Orleans?
This isn't even about a failure to share information with another agency like the FBI (like Alec Station and the Counterterrorist Center famously failed to do so regarding Nawaf al-Hazmi and Khalid al-Midhar until a couple of weeks before 9/11--and even then, they didn't tell them everything, and certainly didn't tell them that they had known about their US visas and travel to the US for over a year by that point). This was an internal Agency failure from Headquarters, from officers in the Directorate of Operations, to share relevant---and much more recent!---information with their own station chief in Mexico City, who was also, of course, a Directorate of Operations man.
Here's Morley:
https://www.history-matters.com/essays/frameup/WhatJaneRomanSaid/WhatJaneRomanSaid_2.htm
https://www.historymatters.com/essays/frameup/WhatJaneRomanSaid/WhatJaneRomanSaid_3.htm
He insinuates some sort of conspiracy cover-up, like that the CIA was trying to use Oswald as some sort of asset (???) or even pre-emptively blame him for the JFK assassination (????????!!!!!). But I find all of that patently ridiculous, of course.
What I do find intriguing is this deep, highly sensitive compartmentalization of Oswald's interactions/altercations with the anti-Castor exiles, and what anyone in those exile groups knew about him in the months and weeks leading up to 11/22/1963---and what they did or did not report to their CIA sponsors, who were themselves deeply involved in some of the Agency's most sensitive, mostly closely held (and to be clear, White House/NSC demanded-and-approved) operations throughout JFK's time in office---namely, the various efforts to murder Castro and otherwise destroy the new Communist regime in Cuba. Perhaps senior people at CIA HQ feared that Oswald's own (undirected by anyone else, to be clear) movements had come just a little too close for comfort to those anti-Castro operations to let anyone know outside a very compartmentalized group of relevant CIA officers with a "need to know"---a group that apparently didn't include the Mexico City station as of October 10, 1963.
Bobby Kennedy certainly feared the possibility of disclosure of a lot of CIA activities regarding Cuba up to 11/22/1963. The resulting investigations could/would implicate him and his brother, aka the President who was murdered by one Lee Harvey Oswald, and Jackie's "Camelot" myth and the broader Kennedy legacy/legend would have been irrevocably tarnished. No wonder so many buy into JFK assassination CTs!
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Axxman300
Philosopher
That's all based on an interview from 1994, by a guy who is a conspiracy theorist.
Today we can read documents, here's what the Mexico City Station said:
https://www.archives.gov/files/research/jfk/releases/2022/104-10052-10119.pdf
(Page 2)
The name, Lee OSWALD, meant nothing to our Mexico City Station, but in their report they did judge him to be an American male. The cable was received on 9 October and checked in our files, where it was immediately noted that the Lee OSWALD phoning the Soviet Embassy was probably the Lee OSWALD who had defected to the Soviet Union in 1959.
From there the CIA states that once they knew they notified the FBI, DoS, and Naval Intelligence. So there's a nine-day delay from the time they record Oswald until the time that conversation is transcribed, and forwarded to Langley, and another day to pass the information along to the other agencies.
The idea that Oswald set off alarm bells in Mexico City is not supported by the body of the documentation now in the public domain. Morley makes it sound as if the CIA and FBI were watching his every move, and that they were highly interested in his activities. The files show otherwise, much of the 1964 cable traffic revolves around piecing together Oswald's journey to the Soviet Union, his actions in the Soviet Union, and then his journey back to the United States. If they'd been watching him they would have already known all these things.
I can find no requests by the Mexico City Station for information on Oswald prior to 9 October. Nobody was "interested" in Oswald, which is how he was able to go to work that morning with a high-powered rifle. Even James Hosty back-burnered the guy.
Today we can read documents, here's what the Mexico City Station said:
https://www.archives.gov/files/research/jfk/releases/2022/104-10052-10119.pdf
(Page 2)
The name, Lee OSWALD, meant nothing to our Mexico City Station, but in their report they did judge him to be an American male. The cable was received on 9 October and checked in our files, where it was immediately noted that the Lee OSWALD phoning the Soviet Embassy was probably the Lee OSWALD who had defected to the Soviet Union in 1959.
From there the CIA states that once they knew they notified the FBI, DoS, and Naval Intelligence. So there's a nine-day delay from the time they record Oswald until the time that conversation is transcribed, and forwarded to Langley, and another day to pass the information along to the other agencies.
The idea that Oswald set off alarm bells in Mexico City is not supported by the body of the documentation now in the public domain. Morley makes it sound as if the CIA and FBI were watching his every move, and that they were highly interested in his activities. The files show otherwise, much of the 1964 cable traffic revolves around piecing together Oswald's journey to the Soviet Union, his actions in the Soviet Union, and then his journey back to the United States. If they'd been watching him they would have already known all these things.
I can find no requests by the Mexico City Station for information on Oswald prior to 9 October. Nobody was "interested" in Oswald, which is how he was able to go to work that morning with a high-powered rifle. Even James Hosty back-burnered the guy.
bknight
Master Poster
Yes, but you can't keep the CTs from spinning their tales, even if false.
Axxman300
Philosopher
So true. Things are so much more pathetic today than they were back in the 1970s, and 1980s when CT authors showed a lot more creative intellect than what we're forced to deal with today.
I saw this post and I used it as an excuse to finish scanning through the rest of the files, while reading over fifty. If I was a still a JFK-CT loon, I could get at least two CTs out of the files to write a series of books. The CIA, and then the HSCA looked hard at the Cuban exile paramilitary group, Alpha-66. This was the CIA's internal memo introducing the group to the Cuban desk, and the DCI:
https://www.archives.gov/files/research/jfk/releases/2022/104-10069-10112.pdf
https://www.archives.gov/files/research/jfk/releases/2022/104-10069-10120.pdf
Other memos go onto report that as Alpha-66 found work at the direction of CIA through JMWAVE, they made management nervous due to taking dangerous risks, and showing a troubling lack of control, and judgement. There are a lot of files in the archives about Alpha-66, and this implies that the CIA and HSCA were, at some point, exploring "blow back" from their association with the group.
Obviously, no evidence links their involvement with the assassination either directly, or indirectly through Oswald.
Next, the files are full of Cold War, CIA operations written as they happened.
This is a CIA-JMWAVE report on Operational/ Gyrose: Review of AMFUANA. AMFUANAs are Cuban nationals who spied for the CIA in Cuba:
https://www.archives.gov/files/research/jfk/releases/2022/104-10070-10079.pdf
The entire project is detailed in this document, covering every aspect of this one CIA counter-Cuban operation. If you like spy stuff, this is gold.
And somewhere in this thread I discussed FBI and CIA files related to a Cuban national from Florida, who was a member of the Fair Play for Cuba Committee, just like Oswald. He decided he would return to Cuba out of the blue, and was in San Antonio the day JFK arrived, and crossed the Mexican border the day after the assassination in a car that was not his own, and drove to Mexico City where he received a Cuban, and was flown to Havana the next day. He was the only passenger on the plane.
I'm pretty sure, based on how many people in the FBI and CIA pulled this guy's file, I could weave a CT about him being Oswald's getaway driver. Oswald was headed to the bus station before he panicked, and took off on foot. The assumption was he was going to take a bus into Mexico, but if he took a bus to San Antonio instead, he had a fellow FPFC member waiting to drive him across the border. And remember, his ID , a fake draft card, said Alek James Hydel.
I'm not the only person to think this, based on the traffic this guy's file received for the next few years. The problem is there is no known, and no verified connection between Oswald and this guy. We cannot connect Oswald with anyone.
And for fun, here's a CIA document disputing the claims that Oswald had several meetings with the CIA rep in Moscow:
https://www.archives.gov/files/research/jfk/releases/2022/104-10087-10126.pdf
Oswald had no contact with the CIA, directly nor indirectly. Ever.
While there is nothing in the JFK files pointing to a conspiracy, there are mountains of Cold War intrigue.
Allen773
Graduate Poster
Allen773
Graduate Poster
Perhaps he was sent by the Castro regime to spy on Oswald, because they were suspicious of him/alarmed about him based on his behavior in Mexico City? Perhaps LHO did let something slip about wanting to kill Kennedy or at least do something crazy that could lead the US government to suspect Cuba’s involvement—and provide a pretext for Bay of Pigs 2.0 but this time with the US military itself? Seems at least as plausible to me as that guy being an accomplice of Oswald.
Both the Cubans and the Soviets after the assassination were frantically trying to convince people that the young Communist wannabe who assassinated the US President was not an agent of theirs, and that indeed they wanted nothing to do with him—all of which I believe to be true.
The CIA and Bobby Kennedy, along with the rest of JFK’s NSC were frantically trying to hide their covert anti-Castro plots, especially the assassination plots.
Both sides of the Cold War were terrified of nuclear war, paranoid after JFK’s assassination, and indeed even suspected the other side’s involvement, but in the end it was almost certainly just Oswald alone, and there’s nothing substantive to indicate otherwise—all noise and no signal.
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Axxman300
Philosopher
No. The timing doesn't work. He left Florida two days before the assassination, and was in San Antonio the next day, while JFK was there. He'd told friends he wasn't happy in the US and wanted to go home. The FBI looked for contact between him and Oswald, and found none. Oswald really had no friends, so there was no one to tell about his plan, not that he actually had one. Calling long distance in 1963 was a big deal for a guy like Oswald. He had no access to a regular phone. I don't recall if he had access to the phone at his boarding house. He would have used a payphone, and that would have been expensive to make a call, not knowing if his party was at home, near a phone. Even through intermediaries communication would have been a chore.
It could work if this guy was his getaway driver. He made it to San Antonio, and obviously made contact with either a Cuban operative, or someone sympathetic to Castro, because we know he received a car. The report does not say he had family in San Antonio, but he was photographed by the FBI, which implies they'd been watching his contact (this guy looked similar to Oswald, BTW). This simple truck-driver from Florida is mysteriously welcomed in San Antonio, and is handed a car. The question is, did someone tell Oswald he had a ride into Mexico if he took a shot at JFK? There is no record of Oswald having contact with Cubans of any kind after his return fro Mexico City, but there is a lot of time unaccounted for where his whereabouts are unknown,. We know he scouted locations along the proposed parade route. We also know he didn't know the motorcade would pass in front of the TSBD until the 19 November.
As I said, the timing is tight. While we know Oswald planned to kill the President, we don't know that he told anyone. And he had obviously given up on the idea because his rifle was out at the Payne house, in the garage. On the morning of 21 November, he shows up unannounced. The rifle is missing when the police search the garage after the assassination. This conspiracy falls apart because he would have had to have made contact with the San Antonio operative to inform them his plan was a go.
So I'd really have to massage this to make the driver thing work due to the lack of concrete information linking Oswald to Cubans in Dallas. This makes a great story, and in my opinion it's as close as we'll ever get to a plausible conspiracy. The fact that so many people in the FBI and House Intelligence Committee looked at this guy's file, so many times suggests others felt the same way. Of all the many players in the JFK assassination, both real, and across the CT spectrum, this guy should be at the top of the Persons of Interest list.
bknight
Master Poster
I don't remember anything overt that the Soviets did to convince the world (US) LHO wasn't an agent for them or working for them in any way.
Of course I'm old and memories fad with time, as I have stated in many of these threads. Memories are the least important bit of any investigation.
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Axxman300
Philosopher
I give you: Yuriy Ivanovich Nosenko
https://www.archives.gov/files/research/jfk/releases/104-10106-10300.pdf
(CIA version)
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2008/sep/01/russia
(Guardian version)
Nosenko, a KGB agent, defected in February, 1964. The CIA was divided over the possibility that he was a KGB plant, because he claimed to have been Oswald's KGB-minder during his time in Russia, and that the KGB never tried to recruit him. They held him in a remote location for three years, where he was "aggressively" interrogated.
The CIA and FBI thought the timing was convenient.
Major Major
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Part of the problem was KGB defector Anatoliy Mikhailovich Golitsyn. Golitsyn had persuaded CIA counterintelligence direstor James Jesus Angleton that all subsequent defectors would be false defectors, sent to lull the CIA into complacency about the Soviet Threat. Angleton oversaw the effort to break Nosenko and get him to confess. "Someone must have been telling lies about Josef K., he knew he had done nothing wrong but, one morning, he was arrested."
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Meanwhile, the FBI had proof that the Soviets had had nothing to do with Oswald and were in a panic over his actions. This was courtesy of CPUSA Secretary for Relations with Foreign Communist Parties Morris Childs, who had been there at the time and seen their panic and denials.
Oh yes, Childs had been an FBI asset for about ten years at that point.
Oh yes, Childs had been an FBI asset for about ten years at that point.
Major Major
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For what it's worth, Quora has been trundling out old JFK conspiracy theories, most already debunked and some weirdly irrelevant.
For example:
https://www.quora.com/Who-killed-JFK-Who-covered-it-up-and-why
For example:
https://www.quora.com/Who-killed-JFK-Who-covered-it-up-and-why
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Axxman300
Philosopher
The documents show the FBI and CIA knew Oswald was not a Soviet or Cuban asset. The CIA immediately ran audits once they learned he'd been in New Orleans to make sure he wasn't in any way connected to Mongoose or JMWAVE. And CIA's Mexico City Station assessed he was too unstable for the Soviets to use as an asset, which the KGB agreed (on their side).
There are at least four memos from Hoover demanding FBI field offices shake down their Criminal Informants (CIs) hoping to find information. The first FBI reports all came in stating nobody had ever heard of him, outside of the Dallas office, who obviously never took him to be a serious threat. Both the FBI and CIA tried to link him to either Castro, or the Soviets, but could not.
What we're left with is the truth. Lee Oswald, a self-described Marxist, who defected to the Soviet Union only to return because he wasn't treated like a celebrity. And after working low-paying jobs decided to kill General Walker, but failed, tried to get an immigration visa to Cuba at the Embassy in Mexico City. Upon learning he had to wait at least six months, he went to the Soviet Embassy, where he stormed into a conference room, waving the same .38 pistol he'd later shoot Tippet with after the assassination, demanding thr Soviets expedite the visa process. Oddly, the Soviets let him live, and gave him his gun back, and threw him out. Oswald returned to Texas, eventually landing a job at the Texas Schoolbook Depository, and would shoot JFK from the 6th floor.
That's it. No grand conspiracy, No deep political intrigue. Just a sad sack seeking attention.
Allen773
Graduate Poster
Angleton suspected or believed that everyone was a Soviet spy with a handful of exceptions, such as his close friend….Kim Philby.
Truth is more farcical than fiction. Who needs conspiracy theories when the truth is already so fascinating? But I suppose many people prefer to think of history, politics, geopolitics, and so forth as fictional narratives of Good vs Evil—with them always being on the side of “Good.” But history is no simple morality play.
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bknight
Master Poster
This is one incident that at face value doesn't support that the Soviets did anything overt, maybe subtlety. It certainly wasn't overt being SECRET from the public for years. The kind of overtness I'm referring is an article in Pravda or something of that nature.
Axxman300
Philosopher
They didn't have to. We had our suspect, Lee Harvey Oswald: Loser.
They may have acted covertly because they knew that key players in D.C. and Langley certainly believed the USSR was in some way connected. We were just 13 months out of the Cuban Missile Crisis, and Washington was still twitchy.
The Russians didn't make public noise about innocence because that would make them look guilty, especially since no one was pointing the finger at them. And in 1963/64 the Soviets had no track record for this level of evil-doing. They kept a low profile, and the world moved on.
The conspiracy theories didn't start to take hold until late 1960s.
The way Golitsyn worked Angleton was quite remarkable. Angleton spent years and years looking for the hidden secret mole because he believed Golitsyn the result was that much of the CIA's intelligence work was seriously disrupted etc. The climax of the Mole search came when one CIA inverstigator concluded that Angleton was the Mole!!! Why? Well one of the reasons was all the damage Angleton's various investigations for a Moloe etc., was doing!
Golitsyn made all sorts of claims. Such has his "Monster Plot" nonsense about a secret, nefarious seemingly flawless plot to infilitrate Western intelligence etc., agencies and society to cause a collapse.
It assumed that the KGB etc., was composed of stunningly intelligent, almost omnipotent managers carrying out decade aftre decade a carefully thoughtout and flawlessly exectuted plan to subvert the West.
Part of this plan was that the Sino-Soviet split was utterly fake and part of the "Monster Plot". Other parts of the plan were that reports of economic and social problems in the Soviet Union were disinformation and that the Soviets were far more powerful than thy seemed. And of course their were Soviet Agents every where, including under beds it seems. Yep the adversary was utterly evil and vastly powerful - all knowing etc. Very paranoid.
Golitsyn fed this crap to Angleton for year after year. Eventually Angleton was removed and Golitsyn set aside has a teller of fantasy tales. Golitsyn wrote several books outlining his fantasies even after the Soviet Union collapsed.
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Major Major
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And Golitsyn also explained that the "Prague Spring" and the entire dissident movement were part of the plot.
Angleton's subordinate Tennet "Pete" Bagley is still publishing books supporting these theories.
HSienzant
Philosopher
I don't know if this is what you're getting at, but from the earliest days after the assassination, extreme-leftist publications tried to blame a right-wing conspiracy and paint Oswald as a patsy. They apparently weren't happy a leftist was the assassin, and tried to flip the narrative. They have succeeded in muddying the waters for six decades now.
https://www.archives.gov/files/research/jfk/releases/docid-32204484.pdf
"For example, 'Progressive Labor', the official publication of the Progressive Labor Party, issued a special supplement dated November 27th, 1963, which contained an article which attempted to raise doubts as to whether Lee Harvey Oswald actually killed President Kennedy. The article also attempted to establish that Oswald possibly had been framed."
And of course, Mark Lane picked up that mantle with his writing of the below "Brief for the Defense" that was published less than a month after the assassination:
https://ratical.org/ratville/JFK/OI-ALB.html#s1
As I've pointed out in the past, Lane was guilty of logical fallacies and falsehoods throught that article. In his very first point, he quotes Henry Wade accurately, saying:
"First, there was a number of witnesses that saw the person with the gun on the sixth floor of the bookstore building, in the window—detailing the window—where he was looking out."
But Lane doesn't attack that point, which Wade is using to narrow down the shooting location to one particular window of one particular floor of one particular building. Wade mentions Oswald not at all in that first point.
Instead, Lane attacks a strawman, changing Wade's claim and attacking instead this statement:
"A number of witnesses saw Oswald at the window of the sixth floor of the Texas School Book Depository."
A statement that was used by Wade to locate the shots as originating from the Texas School Book Depository was instead changed by Lane to put Oswald in that window, and Lane said there were no witnesses that put Oswald in that window.
One of the few leftists to push back against this revisionist leftist history was I.F.Stone. You can see what he thought about it here:
http://ifstone.org/weekly/IFStonesWeekly-1964oct05.pdf
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HSienzant
Philosopher
Here's an even better one from the Russian commentator Zorin on 11/24/63 at 2:40 pm Dallas time:
https://kenrahn.com/JFK/History/WC_Period/Soviet_broadcasts/22-26Nov/USSR/CommentAssTheory.html
"The Moscow television observer (Zorin--ed.) commented that there is every reason to believe that the president was assassinated by a large organization and not by one individual, as certain authorities are trying to make out..."
And at 1pm Dallas time on 11/23/63 by the same man:
https://kenrahn.com/JFK/History/WC_Period/Soviet_broadcasts/22-26Nov/USSR/ZorinComment.html
"...There are already some people who, in the very first hours after the President's death, are trying to make out that this was the act of a fanatic. I shall say quite plainly that this version is more than dubious. To anyone who knows how security measures for protecting the President are organized, it is clear that preparations for an attempt on his life are beyond the means of a single fanatic. No, what we have here is a political crime carefully prepared and planned..."
The Russians were spinning conspiracy tales from very early on.
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smartcooky
Penultimate Amazing
In actual fact, the exact opposite is true. With a group involved in a conspiracy, there are many personalities in play. The more people who are involved in a conspiracy, the more chance there is that one of them won't be able to keep him mouth shut. The more the members of the group have to communicate with each other, the more chances there are to intercept those communications and to gather intel.
But the lone fanatic is a different proposition - he's the one factor that is the most difficult to prepare for. He does all the planning himself, he tells no-one what he is doing, and communicates with no-one else... James Earl Ray, Sirhan Sirhan, John Hinkley Jr, Mark David Chapman, Robert John Bardo.
pgwenthold
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Exactly. I have heard that claim before, that an assassination this big couldn't have been carried out by just a lone nut.
And, as you note, the exact opposite is true. An assassination this big could ONLY be carried out by a lone nut, because as the size of the group goes, so goes the chances of being discovered.
I'm trying to figure out, what part of the JFK assassination by LHO requires a conspiracy organization? The decision to shoot the president? He couldn't get a rifle on his own? He couldn't bring it to the SBD? He couldn't get to the 6th floor window? Note that they are not claiming he didn't do it, so we don't have to worry about nonsense about whether he could hit the target.
What part of the LHO as the shooter description requires a conspiracy?
Axxman300
Philosopher
Nothing.
There is no part of Oswald's actions which required help. He had the perfect weapon. He had the perfect location. He had a track record of going to drastic lengths to seek fame, and he had a record of domestic violence.
I've had the unfortunate luck of being sucked into True-Crime/Web Sleuth Youtube over the past year. There is a distinct pattern that is mirrored in the JFK Assassination:
1. Law Enforcement is labeled incompetent right out of the gate.
2. Conflicting witness testimony is amplified over the larger body of evidence.
3. Law Enforcement is deeply incompetent because they rightly disregard fringe witness testimony, and or investigate the claims to find they don't hold water.
4.Alternative suspects are put forward. Often these suspects mirror the theorist's world view, and embody their bogeyman.
5. Law Enforcement is completely incompetent because they refuse to investigate these CT suspects, even though there is no evidence that these people are involved.
The assassination happened long before the internet, and while the first CT books appeared in 1965, the JFK-CTs didn't start to take hold until the early 1970s, and after Watergate the assassination had become Urban Legend. It is not a coincidence that the JFK Assassination CT became cemented into American pop culture at the same time that UFOs, ESP, and Bigfoot also became subject matter for "serious" investigation. By 1977, when the US Government said the sky is blue, there would be think pieces written in magazines stating that the government is lying about the sky to cover up some deeper plot.
I don't know when the first JFK Assassination thread was started on this board, and I'm too warn out to look up crime stats, but we repeatedly see what one man with a gun can do all by himself. We (the US) have had mass shootings in the double digits since that first thread. They're all lone gunmen.
mikegriffith1
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I've read many JFK assassination conspiracy books, and the overwhelming majority do not express "a world view that believes there is a conspiracy behind everything."
And it's worth mentioning again that a select committee of the U.S. Congress, the House Select Committee on Assassinations, concluded that two gunmen fired at JFK, that someone inside the Dallas Police Department HQ building helped Jack Ruby get into the basement to shoot Oswald, that Oswald had a relationship with several radically anti-communist CIA assets, that someone was impersonating Oswald in Mexico City, and that one of the gunmen who fired at JFK was on the grassy knoll in Dealey Plaza.
The documents released by the Assassination Records Review Board have provided a wealth of additional evidence of a conspiracy in JFK's death.
HSienzant
Philosopher
That deserves a "Yeah, but..."
Yeah, but that was based on the last day of testimony concerning the acoustic evidence. Prior to that testimony, which many members of the committee felt they had inadequate time to prepare for or question, the voting was for Oswald alone, no evidence of conspiracy. And the acoustic analysis has since been discredited in many ways, not least among them as studying the wrong part of the dictabelt -- about a minute after the shots actually occurred.
You will never support this.
You will never support this.
You will never support this.
You will never support this.
There is no evidence of a conspiracy in JFK's death. Suppositions, conjectures, interpretations, and hypothesis about what might have happened don't count as evidence of conspiracy.
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HSienzant
Philosopher
Believe it or not, Thomas Buchanan published "WHO KILLED KENNEDY in May of 1964 - just seven months after the assassination, before the Warren Commission investigation was completed. It was hampered by relying entirely on newspaper articles as source material, which led to a lot of really stupid arguments in hindsight. He argued Tippit fired from the Depository and Jack Ruby fired from the overpass - this was before the Grassy Knoll became a thing. Buchanan was a former member of the American Communist Party. and was pushing the Communist line about the assassination.
https://spartacus-educational.com/JFKbuchananT.htm
Axxman300
Philosopher
Thanks for the correction. This one sounds really dumb.
Axxman300
Philosopher
I've read most everything written up through 1996. Many of those authors went on to write books about other conspiracy theories.
Based on really bad acoustic evidence which has been torn to sheds at least a dozen times since then. And they never named the second gunman. Why was that?
More importantly, why did the HSCA request CIA files dating back to 1948?Why did they need to know about CIA operations in a Caribbean in the 1950s? What did they think they'd find that was related in any way to Dallas in 1963? Here's a conspiracy for you: The HSCA was a front for politicians to get a look at JMWAVE, and the "truth" was never the top priority.
Weird, because all he had to do was walk through the garage door, which had no gate at the time. And he didn't know when Oswald was being transferred, only arriving a minute or so before Oswald was escorted through the door. He wasn't supposed to be in the neighborhood that day, but made a point to wire some money via the Western Union office for one of hos dancers, and decided to drop in (as he'd done a few times during Oswald's time in the jail).
Oh, and Ruby loved to talk. He'd have said something.
Name them. Detail how he knew them, and how this "revelation" came to light.
Why would Oswald impersonate himself? Why would someone impersonate a nobody? The trip to Dallas wasn't on the books at the time he was there. There was no guarantee Oswald would have stayed in Dallas because he was a flake. Why use a guy like Oswald as part of a master plan? Who'd be dumb enough to do that?
Gosh, sounds like you read them. Please cite that additional evidence of a conspiracy. I've cited dozens of documents on this page which say otherwise. Put up or shut up.
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