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JFK admired Hitler

applecorped

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applecorped
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Mar 8, 2008
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http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/did-john-f-kennedy-admire-hitler.premium-1.525719

"John F. Kennedy admired Hitler as a young man and felt fascism was right for Germany, according to a new book in German that mines the future president's diaries.
According to Spiegel Online's article on the book, the 20-year-old Kennedy pondered on August 3, 1937: What are the evils of fascism compared to communism? On August 21 he added that the Germans had been ganged up on.
The book is "John F. Kennedy Unter Deutschen" ("John F. Kennedy Among the Germans") – featuring travel diaries and letters between 1937 and 1945. The work, edited by Oliver Lubrich, documents three visits by Kennedy to Germany – in 1937, 1939 and 1945. “At first glance, one could get the impression that Kennedy endorsed fascism and even admired Hitler,” Spiegel writes."




JFK - a never ending source of fail
 
applecorped said:
http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/did-john-f-kennedy-admire-hitler.premium-1.525719

"John F. Kennedy admired Hitler as a young man and felt fascism was right for Germany, according to a new book in German that mines the future president's diaries.
According to Spiegel Online's article on the book, the 20-year-old Kennedy pondered on August 3, 1937: What are the evils of fascism compared to communism? On August 21 he added that the Germans had been ganged up on.
The book is "John F. Kennedy Unter Deutschen" ("John F. Kennedy Among the Germans") – featuring travel diaries and letters between 1937 and 1945. The work, edited by Oliver Lubrich, documents three visits by Kennedy to Germany – in 1937, 1939 and 1945. “At first glance, one could get the impression that Kennedy endorsed fascism and even admired Hitler,” Spiegel writes."




JFK - a never ending source of fail
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Leave the kid alone. He was probably just reflecting the influence of his father who really was a racist, antisemite and Hitler admirer. See http://hnn.us/articles/697.html
 
A lot of people admired Hitler before the war. He seemingly performed an economic miracle and was transforming German society.

It's easy to look back now and condemn them.
 
Craig B said:
Leave the kid alone. He was probably just reflecting the influence of his father who really was a racist, antisemite and Hitler admirer. See http://hnn.us/articles/697.html
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Because of course whatever an adult human says or does, it's their parents' fault.

Paris Hilton? Her parents' fault.

Michael Jackson diddles young boys? Joe Jackson's fault.

Assassination of JFK? Bob Oswald is to blame.

Iran-Contra? Don't you dare implicate Ronald Reagan or Oliver North. They were probably just reflecting the influence of Jack Reagan and Oliver North Sr., am I right?

And obviously by the same token, the Apollo Project can be credited to the genius of Joe Kennedy and Sam Ealy Johnson; their sons being mere puppets their visionary forefathers, am I right?

Truth be told, I don't hold this against JFK, who I firmly believe was on the side of the angels.

But I do realize that, in the 1920s, fascism was widely accepted among progressives as the natural and healthy evolution of democracy into a more advanced form of civilization, where the benevolent tyrant-state imposed the collective good by force on all citizens under its jurisdiction.

This is, obviously, a persistent sentiment among progressives today. This progressive agenda is of course undermined by the genocidal policies of Nazi Germany, which have rather **** the bed for all programs of social reform that have since sprung from the fascist well.
 
theprestige said:
This is, obviously, a persistent sentiment among progressives today. This progressive agenda is of course undermined by the genocidal policies of Nazi Germany, which have rather **** the bed for all programs of social reform that have since sprung from the fascist well.
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Wow, I thought progressives were, obviously, communists. They are fascists as well?
 
Captain_Swoop said:
A lot of people admired Hitler before the war. He seemingly performed an economic miracle and was transforming German society.

It's easy to look back now and condemn them.
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Yes. Very easy. Excluding Jews from society, abolishing democracy, suppressing political parties, trade unions ... yes, not hard at all to look back and condemn them. Some people even condemned them there and then.
 
theprestige said:
Because of course whatever an adult human says or does, it's their parents' fault.

Paris Hilton? Her parents' fault.

Michael Jackson diddles young boys? Joe Jackson's fault.

Assassination of JFK? Bob Oswald is to blame.

Iran-Contra? Don't you dare implicate Ronald Reagan or Oliver North. They were probably just reflecting the influence of Jack Reagan and Oliver North Sr., am I right?

And obviously by the same token, the Apollo Project can be credited to the genius of Joe Kennedy and Sam Ealy Johnson; their sons being mere puppets their visionary forefathers, am I right?
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That's all nonsense, and not what I meant.
Truth be told, I don't hold this against JFK, who I firmly believe was on the side of the angels.

But I do realize that, in the 1920s, fascism was widely accepted among progressives as the natural and healthy evolution of democracy into a more advanced form of civilization, where the benevolent tyrant-state imposed the collective good by force on all citizens under its jurisdiction.
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The main source - by far! - of delusions among "progressives" at that time was Stalin's Soviet Union, perceived not as a tyrant state, but as the mode of self-organisation of workers and peasants.
 
Craig B said:
Yes. Very easy. Excluding Jews from society, abolishing democracy, suppressing political parties, trade unions ... yes, not hard at all to look back and condemn them. Some people even condemned them there and then.
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A lot of the crap the Nazis did - especially non-homicidal or at least non-genocidal anti-semitism - was a lot less reviled back then than it is now. Plus, conservatives back then - even more so than now - were willing to overlook a lot of "necessary" indiscretions, like the abolition of pesky rights for the common rabble, as long as it was (or was claimed to be) in the pursuit of fighting communism.
 
Captain_Swoop said:
A lot of people admired Hitler before the war. He seemingly performed an economic miracle and was transforming German society.

It's easy to look back now and condemn them.
Click to expand...

Yeah, why would people condemn an outwardly totalitarian bunch of thugs like ... er... the Nazis! :confused:
 
Chaos said:
A lot of the crap the Nazis did - especially non-homicidal or at least non-genocidal anti-semitism - was a lot less reviled back then than it is now. Plus, conservatives back then - even more so than now - were willing to overlook a lot of "necessary" indiscretions, like the abolition of pesky rights for the common rabble, as long as it was (or was claimed to be) in the pursuit of fighting communism.
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To say the Nazis were looked on somewhat more favourably before the Holocaust and after is hardly to excuse anything. There were also plenty of people who could smell a rotten egg pretty easily too.
 
angrysoba said:
To say the Nazis were looked on somewhat more favourably before the Holocaust and after is hardly to excuse anything. There were also plenty of people who could smell a rotten egg pretty easily too.
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There were some folks in any country that liked them, but the opinions got negative quickly for the majority of people after they started persecuting the Jews full-bore. Kristallnacht was the last straw for most people.
 
Chaos said:
A lot of the crap the Nazis did - especially non-homicidal or at least non-genocidal anti-semitism - was a lot less reviled back then than it is now. Plus, conservatives back then - even more so than now - were willing to overlook a lot of "necessary" indiscretions, like the abolition of pesky rights for the common rabble, as long as it was (or was claimed to be) in the pursuit of fighting communism.
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Well that rules out the progressives. They were busy singing Soviet Land, so dear to ev'ry Toiler. But at least they didn't promote the abolition of pesky rights; they imagined that they were encouraging freedom and progress.
 
This reminds me of the "Ayn Rand admired a serial killer!!!" arguments. The logic is that because the person expresses admiration for some aspect of the other person, they therefore admire the other person wholesale.

The logic is crap. There were some things Hitler did (or, rather, that his government did) that are impressive. He was able to unit an extremely divided country, for example. His advances in certain areas of science are undeniable--to the point where the USA and USSR took the scientists (and, if I recall correctly, some of the research facilities) home with them after the war. His tactics include some that were devastatingly effective.

Does that mean I admire him as a person? Of course not. He is one of the most evil people to have ever lived. It just means that I'm able to rationally consider what he did, and acknowledge the areas where he made significant contributions. If I were a rocket scientist I'd read up on what the Germans did, and if I were a general I'd read about Hitler's war machine--and I would condemn the man as a monster. The two are not mutually exclusive.
 
Craig B said:
Leave the kid alone. He was probably just reflecting the influence of his father who really was a racist, antisemite and Hitler admirer. See http://hnn.us/articles/697.html
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It is not surprising to find such views when dealing with periods before the post 1945 demonisation of the European radical right. Similarly, there were many positive views of Italy in the 1920s and 1930s.
 
Dinwar said:
This reminds me of the "Ayn Rand admired a serial killer!!!" arguments. The logic is that because the person expresses admiration for some aspect of the other person, they therefore admire the other person wholesale.

The logic is crap. There were some things Hitler did (or, rather, that his government did) that are impressive. He was able to unit an extremely divided country, for example. His advances in certain areas of science are undeniable--to the point where the USA and USSR took the scientists (and, if I recall correctly, some of the research facilities) home with them after the war. His tactics include some that were devastatingly effective.

Does that mean I admire him as a person? Of course not. He is one of the most evil people to have ever lived. It just means that I'm able to rationally consider what he did, and acknowledge the areas where he made significant contributions. If I were a rocket scientist I'd read up on what the Germans did, and if I were a general I'd read about Hitler's war machine--and I would condemn the man as a monster. The two are not mutually exclusive.
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Ta-da!

See also Joseph Stalin for his rapid industrialisation, Jesus for saying some nice things, Machiavelli for everything other than The Prince.

Guilt by association is not good folks, just because it's a mild association with the Nazis doesn't make it better.
 
Captain_Swoop said:
A lot of people admired Hitler before the war. He seemingly performed an economic miracle and was transforming German society.

It's easy to look back now and condemn them.
Click to expand...

It seems that JFK was in keeping with much of his time. A favourite charge leveled by HUAC under Mccarthy was of "premature antifascism" the reasoning being that if you opposed European fascism before the war then you by default supported comunism
 
brodski said:
It seems that JFK was in keeping with much of his time. A favourite charge leveled by HUAC under Mccarthy was of "premature antifascism" the reasoning being that if you opposed European fascism before the war then you by default supported comunism
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I don't think we need to take Senator McCarthy as our guide in these matters! My problem is that Hitler at once abolished the democratic machinery which had elected him, and started to imprison and abuse dissidents, or even harmless democrats, within days of his accession. He then, long before the outbreak of war, evicted Jews from civil society and plundered them mercilessly. He liquidated all other political parties, even the most peaceful ones. And he hid none of this, unlike Stalin, but gloried in it. Another thing he had in common with Stalin, who may have imitated him in this regard, was a pervasive and absurd personality cult. Not attractive either.
 
HUAC was immensely popular for a time and reflected a large segment of the public mood. As wrong headed as support for Hitler was, it was not unusual for the time.
 
brodski said:
HUAC was immensely popular for a time and reflected a large segment of the public mood. As wrong headed as support for Hitler was, it was not unusual for the time.
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Indeed. I'm arguing that it was wrong headed, not that it was particularly unusual. I further say that its frequency doesn't excuse it.
 
brodski said:
As wrong headed as support for Hitler was, it was not unusual for the time.
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Or several times after. Remember, the Thatcher government held General Pinochet in high regard, despite his early years being a very close reflection of Hitler's.
 
Craig B said:
The main source - by far! - of delusions among "progressives" at that time was Stalin's Soviet Union, perceived not as a tyrant state, but as the mode of self-organisation of workers and peasants.
Click to expand...

It is important to remember that the favorable impression that the Soviet Union was having on many in the US wasn't because of some self delusion process but because the US was in the midst of what seemed like the failure of the capitalist system and the Soviet Union was doing a very good job of controlling what information came out of the Soviet Union. Americans saw mostly bad national economic news in the morning paper and only good economic news from the USSR.
 
brodski said:
It seems that JFK was in keeping with much of his time. A favourite charge leveled by HUAC under Mccarthy was of "premature antifascism" the reasoning being that if you opposed European fascism before the war then you by default supported comunism
Click to expand...

FYI, Senator McCarthy had nothing to do with HUAC. (The H stands for "House ".)
 
If any of you come to St. Loser I'll take you to see a Nazi medal, replete with swastikas, presented to Charles Lindbergh. One of the many awards, bongs and kudos he got in his travels around the world. If that makes him a Nazi then the Legion of Honor makes him a Frenchman.
 
Oh no! A politically involved 20-year old formed opinions that he that he was not so proud of as he matured in life!

I wonder if that's ever happened before?
 
Hitler lived in Berlin.

JFK said, "Ich bin ein Berliner."

Case closed.
 
paiute said:
It is important to remember that the favorable impression that the Soviet Union was having on many in the US wasn't because of some self delusion process but because the US was in the midst of what seemed like the failure of the capitalist system and the Soviet Union was doing a very good job of controlling what information came out of the Soviet Union. Americans saw mostly bad national economic news in the morning paper and only good economic news from the USSR.
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Yes, but this "controlling" enabled the delusion (which I did not describe as 'self delusion') to take hold so strongly, so that the 'progressive' perception of the USSR was completely at odds with the facts. The willingness of people to be deceived arose from the image of capitalist failure and Soviet successes that you describe.
 
applecorped said:
“At first glance, one could get the impression that Kennedy endorsed fascism and even admired Hitler,” Spiegel writes."




JFK - a never ending source of fail
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How do you know Spiegel isn't the source of "fail"? Or, as Gawdzilla points out, your reading of Spiegel?

"At first glance, once could get the impression that" usually implies that that impression isn't accurate.
 
Ha'aretz is normally a credible source but I wonder about this one. I searched for the supposed quote from Spiegel on Google and the only results were for the Israeli paper or people citing it. I searched the English and German sites of the magazine for hitler kennedy and got no applicable hits then searched hitler kennedy lubrich and go no hits.
 
I seem to recall hearing of JFK's admiration for certain aspects of Nazi Germany (Health care?) years ago, in freakin' Sweden of all places. I can't imagine any of this is news.
 
Hitler would have been a pretty cool guy if he wasn't a genocidal racist who started a war.
 
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