Jeremy Bamber

[Fixit]

What makes me bit queasy about this case is that it's so easy for debators to go for stereotyping the mentally ill. It should not be forgotten that they are not more violent than the general population and that murderous behaviour is just as rare with them (and with the added factor of truly diminished responsibility). It's very easy to accuse and demonize Sheila. If she did this awful act, it really was an awful, sad tragedy.

This said I think the conviction is unsafe. Bamber might have done it (and he is not a very likeable character) but the police simply screwed up this case and there is plenty of reasonable doubt.

I don't think many here go for stereotyping the mentally ill. However there are certain features of the case that indicate a possible reconciliation between the actions of the killer and some of the facts. Your point is very interesting in that I recently read of the view of American Courts, Texas in particular, where mental stability is measured by times when a mentally unwell person is relatively stable, but not during an episode/crisis. If a person has periods of stability the Court will not support arguments against the death penalty in capital cases. That instability of course is sometimes the result of not taking meds or more likely an overpowering crisis, resulting in a mentally unwell person given a death sentence because at some point in the past having been able to be assessed as cognitively stable even if only for a short period.
Apart from other forensic factors that point to Sheila, her children in bed, the bible near by (on her chest) from memory, and on the floor next to her mother would not easily been contrived from a different killer.

 

[Nessie]

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...-PIG-SKIN-test-theory-Jeremy-Bamber-case.html

"Does this PIG SKIN experiment cast doubt on Jeremy Bamber's conviction? Moment forensic scientist tests skin on Aga cooker to prove burns on body of White House killer's father were from an oven - suggesting cops MOVED corpse before taking photos"

OK, its the Daily Mail, but there is a link to the experiment that shows the burns on Nevill'es back likely came from the Aga, not a gun as claimed during the trial.

 

[Samson]

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...-PIG-SKIN-test-theory-Jeremy-Bamber-case.html

"Does this PIG SKIN experiment cast doubt on Jeremy Bamber's conviction? Moment forensic scientist tests skin on Aga cooker to prove burns on body of White House killer's father were from an oven - suggesting cops MOVED corpse before taking photos"

OK, its the Daily Mail, but there is a link to the experiment that shows the burns on Nevill'es back likely came from the Aga, not a gun as claimed during the trial.

This looks definitive on the origin of the mysterious burn marks, which obviously were not from the gun muzzle.
In the Robin Bain case marks on his thumb proved he loaded the gun and shot himself, whereas this new evidence will be brushed aside by the home secretary as not changing the safety of the conviction.
The catastrophe of fraud and bad reasoning will persist.

 

[catsmate]

This looks definitive on the origin of the mysterious burn marks, which obviously were not from the gun muzzle.
In the Robin Bain case marks on his thumb proved he loaded the gun and shot himself, whereas this new evidence will be brushed aside by the home secretary as not changing the safety of the conviction.
The catastrophe of fraud and bad reasoning will persist.

Bollocks. Even if this "new evidence" is accurate, a rather large 'if', it doesn't alter in the slightest the rest of the case against the murdering, sociopathic, thug.

 

[Samson]

Bollocks. Even if this "new evidence" is accurate, a rather large 'if', it doesn't alter in the slightest the rest of the case against the murdering, sociopathic, thug.

Bambi had motive:
Her parents had just told her she was an unfit mother and was to lose custody of her children.
Means:
The loaded gun was at hand early morning when she continued the argument with her father.
Opportunity:
She could do the crime without requiring a locked room murder mystery.

The best police narrative outlined in Carol Ann Lee's book requires an impossible sequence of actions as the found evidence is employed to attempt a reconstruction.
Unfortunately for him, the greedy and jealous relatives had.motive means and opportunity to frame him with the scratches beneath the mantel piece, the silencer in the broom cupboard and so on.
It appears the case will be resolved in his favour before he dies in prison.

 

[lionking]

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...-PIG-SKIN-test-theory-Jeremy-Bamber-case.html

"Does this PIG SKIN experiment cast doubt on Jeremy Bamber's conviction? Moment forensic scientist tests skin on Aga cooker to prove burns on body of White House killer's father were from an oven - suggesting cops MOVED corpse before taking photos"

OK, its the Daily Mail, but there is a link to the experiment that shows the burns on Nevill'es back likely came from the Aga, not a gun as claimed during the trial.

Even if the body was moved, how does this impact on Bamber’s guilt? It seems that Bamber’s (few) supporters are clutching at straws.

 

[Samson]

Even if the body was moved, how does this impact on Bamber’s guilt? It seems that Bamber’s (few) supporters are clutching at straws.

The case is the most interesting I ever saw.
By far.
It embraces everything in forensics, politics, family disfunction, familial jealousy and greed, and the list goes on.
I wish a few English men and women would join the thread.

 

[Samson]

Even if the body was moved, how does this impact on Bamber’s guilt? It seems that Bamber’s (few) supporters are clutching at straws.

To answer the question, it is clear that the aga caused the burns and resolves a mystery.
Remember that Sheila used all her force to beat him with the gun because he was not yet dead.

 

[Nessie]

Even if the body was moved, how does this impact on Bamber’s guilt? It seems that Bamber’s (few) supporters are clutching at straws.

It speaks to official misconduct by the police tampering with evidence. A study by Exeter University on the causes of miscarriages of justice has official misconduct as the second most common cause (after inadequate disclosure).

https://evidencebasedjustice.exeter.ac.uk/miscarriages-of-justice-registry/the-cases/overview-graph/

When the police and courts decide on a preferred narrative, often driven by prejudices, where they like or dislike the accused and/or victim and the evidence is pushed aside, or manipulated to get the desired verdict, then we are all at risk from a failing criminal justice system.

There is a lot of evidence of the police mishandling, not disclosing and tampering with evidence in the Bamber case. It does not matter what Bamber, the family, the victims were like as people. It does matter when the police mess about with the evidence.

 

[catsmate]

Bambi had motive:

Means:
The loaded gun was at hand early morning when she continued the argument with her father.
Opportunity:
She could do the crime without requiring a locked room murder mystery.

All of which apply at least as well to the actual murderer, Bamber.

 

[catsmate]

Even if the body was moved, how does this impact on Bamber’s guilt? It seems that Bamber’s (few) supporters are clutching at straws.

It doesn't. The Bamberites are indeed desperately clutching.
It's classic Conspiracy Nut behaviour, cast doubt on any fairly insignificant detail and the whole case collapses. Except in the Real World^TM.

 

[catsmate]

To answer the question, it is clear that the aga caused the burns and resolves a mystery.

This has not actually been established.

Remember that Sheila used all her force to beat him with the gun because he was not yet dead.

Nonsensical fantasies.

 

[Samson]

This has not actually been established.


Nonsensical fantasies.

I assume it is an agreed fact that the burns occurred that evening, which means heat sources must be considered, and there is only one, the aga.
That maps perfectly in the image shown, so let's consider the implication. I assume the body was resting at the Aga for sufficient time to suffer those marks. It is simple logic, so who moved the body?

 

[Garrison]

I assume it is an agreed fact that the burns occurred that evening, which means heat sources must be considered, and there is only one, the aga.
That maps perfectly in the image shown, so let's consider the implication. I assume the body was resting at the Aga for sufficient time to suffer those marks. It is simple logic, so who moved the body?

Bamber did it, unless he has hired you to represent him in a futile attempt to appeal the verdict follow the advice of Elsa from Frozen...

 

[catsmate]

I assume it is an agreed fact that the burns occurred that evening, which means heat sources must be considered, and there is only one, the aga.
That maps perfectly in the image shown, so let's consider the implication. I assume the body was resting at the Aga for sufficient time to suffer those marks. It is simple logic, so who moved the body?

Anyone seen a set of goalposts?

Bamber did it, unless he has hired you to represent him in a futile attempt to appeal the verdict follow the advice of Elsa from Frozen...

 

[Samson]

Anyone seen a set of goalposts?

Figuring what happened is step one, body leaning on the Aga is part of this. I had not heard this before but now has to be seen as the correct solution to the burns. The curious will figure the implications, few on this thread have curiosity but thanks for even responding.

 

[catsmate]

Figuring what happened is step one, body leaning on the Aga is part of this. I had not heard this before but now has to be seen as the correct solution to the burns. The curious will figure the implications, few on this thread have curiosity but thanks for even responding.

Oh good grief, this is classic conspiracy theorist drivel.

 

[Samson]

Oh good grief, this is classic conspiracy theorist drivel.

Conspiracy is where something simple like quad murder suicide in a locked house is made complicated by a moron of a detective.
If only the other Jones had not fallen off a ladder you conspiracy theorists would have been spared the exercise.

 

[catsmate]

Conspiracy is where something simple like quad murder suicide in a locked house is made complicated by a moron of a detective.
If only the other Jones had not fallen off a ladder you conspiracy theorists would have been spared the exercise.

What is this semi-random assemblage of words supposed to mean?

 

[Samson]

What is this semi-random assemblage of words supposed to mean?

Stan* Jones said murder suicide.
A younger detective also called Jones got side tracked by behavioral suppositions and went right down the rabbit hole.
Early in the investigations Stan Jones fell off a ladder and died.
For more detailed evidence check my signature line.

* The only error in my account maybe misnaming the Joneses.

 

[catsmate]

Stan* Jones said murder suicide.
A younger detective also called Jones got side tracked by behavioral suppositions and went right down the rabbit hole.
Early in the investigations Stan Jones fell off a ladder and died.
For more detailed evidence check my signature line.

* The only error in my account maybe misnaming the Joneses.

I repeat; What is this semi-random assemblage of words supposed to mean?

 

[IsThisTheLife]

The story is that Bamber thought he could massacre his family including, just for the hell of it, his two young nephews in cold blood and then frame his sister. How credulous does one have to be to believe that?

 

[catsmate]

The story is that Bamber thought he could massacre his family including, just for the hell of it, his two young nephews in cold blood and then frame his sister. How credulous does one have to be to believe that?

Oh look, more puerile trolling!! How silly does one have to be to engage in that..............

 

[Samson]

Oh look, more puerile trolling!! How silly does one have to be to engage in that..............

Yet credulous is a thing.
I think the Life means

"What could possibly go wrong in the plan"?

Answer:

Just about everything. Yet the required occurrence of things going wrong is zero.

 

[catsmate]

Yet credulous is a thing.
I think the Life means

"What could possibly go wrong in the plan"?

Answer:

Just about everything. Yet the required occurrence of things going wrong is zero.

Have you considered thinking through what you're trying to say before posting more random phrases?

 

[IsThisTheLife]

If you could say which sentences you're having trouble parsing, perhaps I could explain them to you?

ETA >> I'll do so anyway;

we're to understand that Jeremy Bamber set about committing one of the worst mass murders in UK history and then expected (hoped) that he would get away with it by "staging" the carnage to make it look his sister done it.

My question would be;

just how stupid would he have to be to imagine he would succeed, and just how credulous do people have to be to accept that he is indeed that stupid?

 

[Samson]

If you could say which sentences you're having trouble parsing, perhaps I could explain them to you?

ETA >> I'll do so anyway;

we're to understand that Jeremy Bamber set about committing one of the worst mass murders in UK history and then expected (hoped) that he would get away with it by "staging" the carnage to make it look his sister done it.

My question would be;

just how stupid would he have to be to imagine he would succeed, and just how credulous do people have to be to accept that he is indeed that stupid?

Intruigingly successive home secretaries have lovingly embraced not considering your specific concern.

 

[jeremyp]

If you could say which sentences you're having trouble parsing, perhaps I could explain them to you?

ETA >> I'll do so anyway;

we're to understand that Jeremy Bamber set about committing one of the worst mass murders in UK history and then expected (hoped) that he would get away with it by "staging" the carnage to make it look his sister done it.

My question would be;

just how stupid would he have to be to imagine he would succeed, and just how credulous do people have to be to accept that he is indeed that stupid?

Otherwise intelligent people sometimes do really stupid things. I have no problem accepting that he slaughtered all of those people and then tried to frame one of them. He was a desperate man trying to avoid going to prison for a long time.

 

[IsThisTheLife]

Otherwise intelligent people sometimes do really stupid things. I have no problem accepting that he slaughtered all of those people and then tried to frame one of them. He was a desperate man trying to avoid going to prison for a long time.

Bamber has had many psychological evaluations, including one over a period of c. two weeks with dozens of hours of face-to-face conversation - no trace of a personality disorder has ever been found in him.

Could you explain how you have "no problem" believing that he could kill three adults and two young children in cold blood, since presumably that would require a severe personality disorder?

 

[IsThisTheLife]

Otherwise intelligent people sometimes do really stupid things. I have no problem accepting that he slaughtered all of those people and then tried to frame one of them. He was a desperate man trying to avoid going to prison for a long time.

???? You mean, for the murders? LoL.

 

[lionking]

Could you explain how you have "no problem" believing that he could kill three adults and two young children in cold blood, since presumably that would require a severe personality disorder?

What? Murderers require personality disorders?

Edited by sarge: 

removed rules 0/12 infraction

 

[RolandRat]

Otherwise intelligent people sometimes do really stupid things. I have no problem accepting that he slaughtered all of those people and then tried to frame one of them. He was a desperate man trying to avoid going to prison for a long time.

Absolutely. Lots of murderers do stupid things in the hope they get away with it. Emotion can easily over-rule intelligence.

 

[IsThisTheLife]

What? Murderers require personality disorders?

Edited by sarge: 

removed moderated content

Yes, it requires a personality disorder to commit murder (let alone mass murder) in cold blood.

Edited by sarge: 

removed rule 0/12 violation

 

[IsThisTheLife]

Let's get something straight here; is the contention that it is possible for an individual with no sign of psychosis (mental derangement, insanity, whatever you want to call it) or psychopathy to plan and commit mass murder?

 

[IsThisTheLife]

Or is it that there a psychiatric condition called "evul"?

 

[IsThisTheLife]

Since arguing with facts on this topic (and many others) appears to be an exercise in futility (and once one is familiar with the facts of the White House Farm massacre the conclusion to be drawn should be obvious), it's hard not to wonder about the psychology of those who insist on Bamber's guilt, IOW who support the state unquestioningly. Which of course is ad-hominem by definition.

 

[RolandRat]

Let's get something straight here; is the contention that it is possible for an individual with no sign of psychosis (mental derangement, insanity, whatever you want to call it) or psychopathy to plan and commit mass murder?

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/20004282/

"According to the definition of Hodgins, only 15% of murderers have a major mental disorder (schizophrenia, paranoia, melancholia). Mental disorder increases the risk of homicidal violence by two-fold in men and six-fold in women."

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/08/...iatrist,have any severe, diagnosable disorder.

"It is true that severe mental illnesses are found more often among mass murderers. About one in five are likely psychotic or delusional, according to Dr. Michael Stone, a forensic psychiatrist at Columbia University who maintains a database of 350 mass killers going back more than a century. The figure for the general public is closer to 1 percent.

But the rest of these murderers do not have any severe, diagnosable disorder. "

 

[catsmate]

If you could say which sentences you're having trouble parsing, perhaps I could explain them to you?

ETA >> I'll do so anyway;

we're to understand that Jeremy Bamber set about committing one of the worst mass murders in UK history and then expected (hoped) that he would get away with it by "staging" the carnage to make it look his sister done it.

My question would be;

just how stupid would he have to be to imagine he would succeed, and just how credulous do people have to be to accept that he is indeed that stupid?

Arrogant, self-centred, psychopathic and rather stupid. E.g. Bamber.

Will you be addressing the array of evidence of Bamber's guilt? Or continuing you silly nonsense....

 

[IsThisTheLife]

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/20004282/

"According to the definition of Hodgins, only 15% of murderers have a major mental disorder (schizophrenia, paranoia, melancholia). Mental disorder increases the risk of homicidal violence by two-fold in men and six-fold in women."

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/08/...iatrist,have any severe, diagnosable disorder.

"It is true that severe mental illnesses are found more often among mass murderers. About one in five are likely psychotic or delusional, according to Dr. Michael Stone, a forensic psychiatrist at Columbia University who maintains a database of 350 mass killers going back more than a century. The figure for the general public is closer to 1 percent.

But the rest of these murderers do not have any severe, diagnosable disorder. "

So 'Evul' is a psychiatric diagnosis then?

 

[lionking]

Bamber remains a murderer. May he rot in prison.