Is Democracy dead in the U.S.?

Is Democracy dead in the U.S.?


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Dunno about you, but every encounter I have with the Feds seems needlessly slow and laborious and insanely redundant. The IRS is an example we all are pretty much familiar with. In construction, when a government program is involved, the inception level approvals and authorizations and dear God additional costs and calender pages turning is maddening. It doesn't need to be as complicated as it is, and I'm armchair confident the multiple layers of bureaucracy could be pared away to no liability, if restructured prudently.
But the IRS is like that because of laws and to help make tax preparers more viable. You have to remember a lot of the waste is a goal, see why they cut its workforce even though that reduces government revenue.
 
Probably not. These issue are a function of scale and once any organization becomes big enough it will eventually become mired in bureaucratic inefficiency.

Not that we shouldn’t be working towards efficiency, but I don’t see why this is now or really ever has been a pressing issue. I’d rather have a bloated bureaucracy and social stability than what is happening now. A bloated bureaucracy isn’t ideal, but it tends to kill less people.

But this is all beside the point of what is happening with DOGE. As previously noted, and like every other aspect of Trump’s presidency, DOGE is and always has been a scam.
Efficiency is not always a desirable goal, in fact it is rarely so. Take large healthcare organisations like the NHS, they've been subject to many efficiency drives over the years, but they suffer from predictable periodic overcrowding issues, in large part due to efficiency measures cutting any buffers for busy periods like flu season. I am personwlly of the opinion that any workgroup or section should be working at 80% capacity when fully staffed and at normal operating levels. It's not efficient, but it gives you a good buffer for unforseen events or extreme events.
 
part of the problem is, that people see spending on something they don't immediately understand and assume it is waste or worse. That means the people who depend on that spending are on the back foot and have an uphill climb. And that's if the person seeing the "waste" is acting good faith and not pushing an agenda.
 
Imma open the betting window for 2028, assuming this forum is still here to collect/pay out.

Not only will democracy be alive, but a conventional election will be held between current VP JD, and whoever is the Democratic nom. Dems win by a safe margin. Trumpomania is dead or dying, largely because Trump followers didnt get the white nationalist paradise they were promised, but did get a wrecked economy that they felt personally. Vance tries to take the helm, but can't pull it off, lacking the orange-hued picture of misery that Trump supporters found so swoonworthy.
OK, here's my prediction for Congressional elections 2026:

There will be elections, but they will be heavily rigged through gerrymandering, removing voters from the voting lists, and some "putting their thumb on the scales" when they count the votes.

Yet somehow, because of tens of millions of pissed-off people who have lost jobs and homes, and can't put food on the table, Democrats regain control of both house of Congress. Trump quickly gins up an excuse for a national emergency, nullifies the vote, dissolves Congress, and continues to rule with a Big Mac fist. Hundreds of Democratic leaders are rounded up and shipped to prisons or Gitmo. Maybe some are even "disappeared." Not a single MAGA Republican dares stand up against this; in fact, most support it outright.

I won't try to predict what happens next (civil war, terrorism, millions die, aliens attack, cats and dogs living together in sin, etc.).
 
part of the problem is, that people see spending on something they don't immediately understand and assume it is waste or worse. That means the people who depend on that spending are on the back foot and have an uphill climb. And that's if the person seeing the "waste" is acting good faith and not pushing an agenda.
We don't often get protracted periods of wintry weather and so when we do we sometimes run out of salt/grit for the roads and have insufficient snowploughs to clear all roads in a timely fashion. When this happens, people complain and pressure local government to spend more on winter provisions.

The next year, if it's mild, the same people complain about money wasted on huge stockpiles of salt and on snowploughs lying idle.

Same with the NHS. If beds aren't 100% occupied then complaints are made about inefficiency. Then when there is an uptick in demand complaints are made about there being insufficient spare capacity.
 
We don't often get protracted periods of wintry weather and so when we do we sometimes run out of salt/grit for the roads and have insufficient snowploughs to clear all roads in a timely fashion. When this happens, people complain and pressure local government to spend more on winter provisions.

The next year, if it's mild, the same people complain about money wasted on huge stockpiles of salt and on snowploughs lying idle.

Same with the NHS. If beds aren't 100% occupied then complaints are made about inefficiency. Then when there is an uptick in demand complaints are made about there being insufficient spare capacity.
Look, it's very reasonable: all the public wants is to have absolutely perfect services with zero waste and all supplies to exactly match demand through completely accurate prediction of the future, and for all of that to be cheaper than free. Also they should win prizes for participating. And it wouldn't kill you to thank the public for receiving these services, would you?
 
Let’s circle back to this in ‘26. I think it’s unlikely that Trump will try to cancel elections, but any election Republicans don’t win they will contest and try to invalidate in some way. How well any guardrails we have left hold up in ‘26 will tell us what ‘28 will look like.
Sounds good. Maybe we'll have a search function to locate this post in Nov '26? That should be a seperate bet.

I have a feeling that around the midterms, the administration is going to be having a serious internal credibility problem. The rabble will be getting restless, and not seeing their White Nationalist Utopia spreading out before them. Instead, inflation and other financial pressures will be mounting.

So I think Dems regain control, which would be a godsend for Trump. Not his fault anymore, right? Those liberals seized power. Maybe, maybe just enough to keep his followers fighting the "good" fight. But I doubt it. He's ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊ up big and fast, and lightened wallets cause supporters to stop supporting.
 
We don't often get protracted periods of wintry weather and so when we do we sometimes run out of salt/grit for the roads and have insufficient snowploughs to clear all roads in a timely fashion. When this happens, people complain and pressure local government to spend more on winter provisions.

The next year, if it's mild, the same people complain about money wasted on huge stockpiles of salt and on snowploughs lying idle.

Same with the NHS. If beds aren't 100% occupied then complaints are made about inefficiency. Then when there is an uptick in demand complaints are made about there being insufficient spare capacity.
we will happily let people die to save a few pennies, so long as we don't have to accept responsibility for it
 
Sounds good. Maybe we'll have a search function to locate this post in Nov '26? That should be a seperate bet.

:ROFLMAO: I've been availing myself of the bookmark function. Also, when I'm looking for a specific post from a while ago, I've had a little bit of luck doing a Google search.

I have a feeling that around the midterms, the administration is going to be having a serious internal credibility problem. The rabble will be getting restless, and not seeing their White Nationalist Utopia spreading out before them. Instead, inflation and other financial pressures will be mounting.

So I think Dems regain control, which would be a godsend for Trump. Not his fault anymore, right? Those liberals seized power. Maybe, maybe just enough to keep his followers fighting the "good" fight. But I doubt it. He's ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊ up big and fast, and lightened wallets cause supporters to stop supporting.

I hope you're right about the midterms. Right now, trying to predict the political landscape even two years from now feels like tying to predict the score of a football game after a pack of feral baboons is released onto the field.
 
We don't often get protracted periods of wintry weather and so when we do we sometimes run out of salt/grit for the roads and have insufficient snowploughs to clear all roads in a timely fashion. When this happens, people complain and pressure local government to spend more on winter provisions.

The next year, if it's mild, the same people complain about money wasted on huge stockpiles of salt and on snowploughs lying idle.

Same with the NHS. If beds aren't 100% occupied then complaints are made about inefficiency. Then when there is an uptick in demand complaints are made about there being insufficient spare capacity.
Resilience and efficiency are usually conflicting objectives. However, in the case of hospital beds, I believe there is evidence that aiming for close to 100% occupancy (i.e. perfect bed efficiency) actually increases the spread of diseases, reducing hospital efficiency and meaning a more resilient hospital system (i.e., aiming for bed occupancy less than 100%) would also have better overall efficiency.

As you point out, another feature of efficient systems is that they tend not to be good at adapting to unexpected events or sometimes even small changes.

Those supporting making government (or any other system) more efficient should probably be made aware of the trade-off against resilience and adaptability.
 
Resilience and efficiency are usually conflicting objectives. However, in the case of hospital beds, I believe there is evidence that aiming for close to 100% occupancy (i.e. perfect bed efficiency) actually increases the spread of diseases, reducing hospital efficiency and meaning a more resilient hospital system (i.e., aiming for bed occupancy less than 100%) would also have better overall efficiency.

As you point out, another feature of efficient systems is that they tend not to be good at adapting to unexpected events or sometimes even small changes.

Those supporting making government (or any other system) more efficient should probably be made aware of the trade-off against resilience and adaptability.
See also, Just In Time manufacturing. Super efficient and cost saving...until there is any disruption at all in the supply chain.
 
Sounds good. Maybe we'll have a search function to locate this post in Nov '26? That should be a seperate bet.

I have a feeling that around the midterms, the administration is going to be having a serious internal credibility problem. The rabble will be getting restless, and not seeing their White Nationalist Utopia spreading out before them. Instead, inflation and other financial pressures will be mounting.

So I think Dems regain control, which would be a godsend for Trump. Not his fault anymore, right? Those liberals seized power. Maybe, maybe just enough to keep his followers fighting the "good" fight. But I doubt it. He's ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊ up big and fast, and lightened wallets cause supporters to stop supporting.
The ultimate result would be 67 Dem senators, a super majority allowing immediate impeachment and removal of Trump and Vance, followed by prosecution for a variety of crimes already committed. Also a number of White House staff could be prosecuted and jailed, starting with Muskrat and Bannon.

My instinct says they would all (try to) flee the country before being jailed, never to return.
 
The ultimate result would be 67 Dem senators, a super majority allowing immediate impeachment and removal of Trump and Vance, followed by prosecution for a variety of crimes already committed. Also a number of White House staff could be prosecuted and jailed, starting with Muskrat and Bannon.

My instinct says they would all (try to) flee the country before being jailed, never to return.
I'm sure they would all take with them lots of classified documents and sell them to fund their "retirement."
 
The ultimate result would be 67 Dem senators, a super majority allowing immediate impeachment and removal of Trump and Vance, followed by prosecution for a variety of crimes already committed. Also a number of White House staff could be prosecuted and jailed, starting with Muskrat and Bannon.

My instinct says they would all (try to) flee the country before being jailed, never to return.
Suppose Democrats do take control of Congress, and do as you suggest. Who's going to enforce the removal of Trump and Vance? Are Congresspersons going to walk into the White House and drag them out? Fight off the Secret Service? The DOJ belongs to Trump. Nobody will prosecute, nobody will be hauled into courtrooms or jail cells.
 
Suppose Democrats do take control of Congress, and do as you suggest. Who's going to enforce the removal of Trump and Vance? Are Congresspersons going to walk into the White House and drag them out? Fight off the Secret Service? The DOJ belongs to Trump. Nobody will prosecute, nobody will be hauled into courtrooms or jail cells.
If Tramp is impeached and convicted, he leaves the WH immediately.
 
If Tramp is impeached and convicted, he leaves the WH immediately.
Why? Again, who will actually make him leave if he doesn't want to? Will the Secret Service turn on him? Will the local DC cops taser him? Will Vance summon one of Thiel's robot guards? If Congress orders one thing and the president orders the opposite, who will the SS, the FBI, the DOJ, the military obey? Will they choose sides as agencies? Will each individual make a choice? Will agencies and individuals decide they aren't going to obey either and wait for clarification from somewhere else?

This stuff has not yet been tested, we don't know how it will actually go.


eta: perhaps Congress would send their four best Jedi to tell Trump he's under arrest and to come quietly. That'll work out splendidly well.
 
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If he is impeached and convicted, he is no longer President and the Secret Service and DOJ will make him leave.
Just like DOGE can not have people removed from their rightful place of work and seize private records as they see fit. Except of course that they totally did those things to US Institute of Peace. So please be clear why you think they would enforce such a thing.
 
If he is impeached and convicted, he is no longer President and the Secret Service and DOJ will make him leave.
Why, because they're supposed to? Where have you been for the last eight years? People haven't been doing what they're supposed to.
 
Trump is a coward, not a warrior. He will put his orange tail between his legs and run to Mar-a-Lago at the first whiff of trouble. The Secret Service will have trouble keeping up with his retreating.
 
Who specifically is “they” in this scenario?
As I recall:

Trump: "This election was a fraud, and I'm going to fight!"
Everybody else: "Start packing. Now."
Trump: *packs so fast, he packed boxes of classified documents and books the first flight to Florida*
 
As I recall:

Trump: "This election was a fraud, and I'm going to fight!"
Everybody else: "Start packing. Now."
Trump: *packs so fast, he packed boxes of classified documents and books the first flight to Florida*

Well, I don’t recall it being quite so forceful as “Start packing”. More like “Here, let me carry that for you”.

But the question remains, who is “Everybody else” and where are they now? Because “Everybody else” is doing ◊◊◊◊ all to stop him from all the wildly illegal things he’s doing in this moment.
 
Well, I don’t recall it being quite so forceful as “Start packing”. More like “Here, let me carry that for you”.

But the question remains, who is “Everybody else” and where are they now? Because “Everybody else” is doing ◊◊◊◊ all to stop him from all the wildly illegal things he’s doing in this moment.
Literally everybody. Those in power are not brave people. Guys like Enripue Teabagger or whatever his name is concern me. They stand up and throw down. They are dangerous. The Secret Service and the military have that Constitutional thing that allows them to defy orders, and (color me optimistic, here) will do so after a certain point, and will double down when others stand up with them. They know what the penalty is for treason, and no amount of MAGAmania will have them toeing that line.
 
Literally everybody. Those in power are not brave people. Guys like Enripue Teabagger or whatever his name is concern me. They stand up and throw down. They are dangerous. The Secret Service and the military have that Constitutional thing that allows them to defy orders, and (color me optimistic, here) will do so after a certain point, and will double down when others stand up with them. They know what the penalty is for treason, and no amount of MAGAmania will have them toeing that line.

I hope you’re right, but as we watch this administration become more lawless by the day and no one stepping up to stop them, I have difficulty sharing in your optimism.
 
If he is impeached and convicted, he is no longer President and the Secret Service and DOJ will make him leave.
When the Constitution was being debated in the 1780s, a lot of the delegates were wary of adding impeachment. They feared it would be wielded as a political weapon. the way the proponents like Hamilton convinced them to support is was to ask what if the president used his office to extract favors from foreign governments. That got them to flip.

Trump got caught committing the specific act that convinced those delegates to support adding impeachment to the Constitution. And it didn't mean a damn thing.

Precedent means nothing. Tradition means nothing. The law means nothing. The courts mean nothing. Only force means anything to these people.
 
When the Constitution was being debated in the 1780s, a lot of the delegates were wary of adding impeachment. They feared it would be wielded as a political weapon. the way the proponents like Hamilton convinced them to support is was to ask what if the president used his office to extract favors from foreign governments. That got them to flip.

Trump got caught committing the specific act that convinced those delegates to support adding impeachment to the Constitution. And it didn't mean a damn thing.

Precedent means nothing. Tradition means nothing. The law means nothing. The courts mean nothing. Only force means anything to these people.
He's ignoring court orders, trying to impeach and remove judges who rule against him, intimidating the press, threatening to jail them . . . who's going to stop him? With the military in his pocket, SCOTUS, an FBI loyal to him, who's gonna stop him.
 
Literally everybody. Those in power are not brave people. Guys like Enripue Teabagger or whatever his name is concern me. They stand up and throw down. They are dangerous. The Secret Service and the military have that Constitutional thing that allows them to defy orders, and (color me optimistic, here) will do so after a certain point, and will double down when others stand up with them. They know what the penalty is for treason, and no amount of MAGAmania will have them toeing that line.
The punishment for the kind of treason that Trump is in favor of is ... nothing!
As for Enrique Tarrio - I assume he's the one you're thinking of - he is currently under arrest (Wikipedia), but if what he was arrested for is something that Trump approves of, I assume that he will be pardoned again.
 
He's ignoring court orders, trying to impeach and remove judges who rule against him, intimidating and blackmailing the press, threatening to jail them . . . who's going to stop him? With the military in his pocket, SCOTUS, an FBI loyal to him, who's gonna stop him.
FTFY
A military coup would be the way to do it in other Third-World countries. An actual revolution - of the people, by the people and for the people - against the billionaire class and the people the billionaires pay to rule the country would be a better idea, but I don't see that coming any time soon.
 
Trump is a coward, not a warrior. He will put his orange tail between his legs and run to Mar-a-Lago at the first whiff of trouble. The Secret Service will have trouble keeping up with his retreating.
Yes, if he is faced with actual resistance that he can't use the military, the police and/or his MAGA minions to strike down, he will.
But I don't see him being faced with that ... at all.
 
The punishment for the kind of treason that Trump is in favor of is ... nothing!
As for Enrique Tarrio - I assume he's the one you're thinking of - he is currently under arrest (Wikipedia), but if what he was arrested for is something that Trump approves of, I assume that he will be pardoned again.
I know. I said "guys like him" concern me. I worry about the muscle more than the mouth.
 
Trump Crossed a NEW Line that Finally Triggered a “True” Constitutional Crisis (The Humanist Report on YouTube, Mar 18, 2025 - 17:12 min.)
Trump has crossed multiple red lines recently: he detained a permanent resident for political speech, announced Biden pardons are “void,” and deemed criticism of him “illegal.” Additionally, Trump’s administration is now openly defying courts and bragging about it, which marks the beginning of a “true” constitutional crisis according to attorney Mark S. Zaid. In this video we’ll talk about Trump’s recent moves and explain how it puts us on a direct path towards a dictatorship.
Supreme Court 'is not gonna buy' Trump's deportations under Alien Enemies Act, expert says (MSNBC on YouTube, Mar 18, 2025 - 6:51 min.)
President Donald Trump has invoked the Alien Enemies Act, a tool that grants the president sweeping power to imprison and deport non-citizens in time of war, to target alleged members of a Venezuelan gang.
It remains to be seen if it's true that the Supreme Court won' buy it and what will happen if it doesn't.
 
Whenever DOGE shuts down part of all of a government program, security/police come in and escort people from the premises and block employees from coming in. This is despite most of these shutdowns being illegal according to the law. How was Trump/Musk able to convince government security and local police to toady up with illegal actions, especially once a judge said specifically "This is illegal"?
 
Whenever DOGE shuts down part of all of a government program, security/police come in and escort people from the premises and block employees from coming in. This is despite most of these shutdowns being illegal according to the law. How was Trump/Musk able to convince government security and local police to toady up with illegal actions, especially once a judge said specifically "This is illegal"?
Law enforcement and security persons (for the most part) are authoritarian-minded and will follow orders given by those they percieve as above them in the chain of command. A judge's orders are outside of that chain and so they'll ignore judge's orders. They'll often ignore law, as long as they were ordered to.
 
Whenever DOGE shuts down part of all of a government program, security/police come in and escort people from the premises and block employees from coming in. This is despite most of these shutdowns being illegal according to the law. How was Trump/Musk able to convince government security and local police to toady up with illegal actions, especially once a judge said specifically "This is illegal"?


Part of it is because these are mostly private security firms run by their billionaire friends.
 
Suppose Democrats do take control of Congress, and do as you suggest. Who's going to enforce the removal of Trump and Vance? Are Congresspersons going to walk into the White House and drag them out? Fight off the Secret Service? The DOJ belongs to Trump. Nobody will prosecute, nobody will be hauled into courtrooms or jail cells.
According to the Presidential Succession Act, the Speaker of the House becomes president in this case. If the Dems have a 67-plus majority in the Senate, it is also very likely they will hold Congress too. In which case the new Democrat president is Commander in Chief of the military, DoJ, and the Secret Service, etc. As noted here, many of these organisations respond to whoever holds their leash. So the answer to your question is: the US President and his/her legitimate authorities.
 

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