Is Democracy dead in the U.S.?

Is Democracy dead in the U.S.?


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Yep, i read it. The wording says that while that State of Emergency is in force, the session of congress is at a time standstill. Everybody freeze! The intention is that they can extend the session and thus the State of Emergency indefinitely. The unintended consequence is that they are not racking up paid session days in Congress, and also due dates for other congressional actions like funding never arrive. The date in Congress right now is whatever the ◊◊◊◊ day it was when this SoE started. Pay days since then have not yet happened.

I'll have a latte, please.
I believe that they will treat it as if time stands still only for those rules that they want to avoid violating. Actually, I'm sure of it. They aren't going to stop their own pay and/or keep days running for those things that they want to continue.
It's just like the SCOTUS rule about immunity while doing "official" acts. Everyone knows that this precedent will only apply to Republicans.
 
Indeed, indeed. Sadly, that might include WWIII. Can't see how that would not be a nuclear exchange in short order, so "we" may refer to another species.
See (but no one is going to see) my unpublished novel, Sixty Four Reasons Why Humans Will Never Have a Space-Faring Civilization.
 
I believe that they will treat it as if time stands still only for those rules that they want to avoid violating. Actually, I'm sure of it. They aren't going to stop their own pay and/or keep days running for those things that they want to continue.
It's just like the SCOTUS rule about immunity while doing "official" acts. Everyone knows that this precedent will only apply to Republicans.
So does this state of emergency apply only selectively? If so where are the boundaries? Only in Washington? Selected states? All the world? Really, this is stupider than trying to legislate state fossils.
 
The boundaries are where Trump wants them to be, supported by Congress and excused by Judicial.
So everything that Congress does is covered by this SoE? Or not? Or is each tawdry effort to rip off the US treasury and public exist in a sort of Schrodinger's time-warp, with the clock neither ticking nor tocking until the Trump function collapses the waveform one way or another?

Is that seriously a way to run a major first-world country?
 
The idea that the decision not to use the filibuster is seen as the death of Democracy is just a little too rich from the folks who were telling us just a year or two ago that the filibuster needed to be eliminated in order to save Democracy. Whose ox, indeed.
 
DOGE is saving us tens of billions of dollars in wasteful/fraudulent federal spending.
Yet to be evidenced, much less proven. The only thing the Muskrat has done is to fire people who were fulfilling their contractual agreements with the US government, and without warning. What the Rat has done is to show that the US governments faith and credit is worth nothing. Canada, Mexico, Greenland and others are similarly discovering that the States are no longer trustworthy and will fail to live up to agreements at the drop.of a hat.
Most people think that not wasting money is a good thing. Most people think that striving to balance the budget, just as all individuals and families have to do, is a good thing.
Agreed, but there are responsible ways to go about that laudable end, and stupid ways. DOGE chose the latter. That's what people object to, not a move towards efficiency and prudent spending.

I thought DOGE would be a think tank, that studied the bureaucratic structure, identified unnecessary redundancies, and surgically improved the structure to eliminate waste. Fat trimming to lose weight is good, cutting off appendages with no healing plan is not.
 
Yet to be evidenced, much less proven. The only thing the Muskrat has done is to fire people who were fulfilling their contractual agreements with the US government, and without warning. What the Rat has done is to show that the US governments faith and credit is worth nothing. Canada, Mexico, Greenland and others are similarly discovering that the States are no longer trustworthy and will fail to live up to agreements at the drop.of a hat.

Agreed, but there are responsible ways to go about that laudable end, and stupid ways. DOGE chose the latter. That's what people object to, not a move towards efficiency and prudent spending.

I thought DOGE would be a think tank, that studied the bureaucratic structure, identified unnecessary redundancies, and surgically improved the structure to eliminate waste. Fat trimming to lose weight is good, cutting off appendages with no healing plan is not.

it's actually much worse than that imo. while they're basically lying about finding fraud and waste, they're cutting programs for their own agenda while they actually legalize waste and fraud to take advantage of themselves. it's completely self serving
 
it's actually much worse than that imo. while they're basically lying about finding fraud and waste, they're cutting programs for their own agenda while they actually legalize waste and fraud to take advantage of themselves. it's completely self serving
To Emily's Cat point somewhere around here, there is some level.of logic to say "OK, kids, your budget is being slashed, make due with less", and kind of force streamlining. But I don't see a bureaucracy responding to that like a private business could. A government has a very tight chain of command, and improvising on the fly without approval is not their strong suit by design. That's why I'm a little dumbfounded by the DOGE approach. It pretty much can't work, even in the abstract.
 
To Emily's Cat point somewhere around here, there is some level.of logic to say "OK, kids, your budget is being slashed, make due with less", and kind of force streamlining. But I don't see a bureaucracy responding to that like a private business could. A government has a very tight chain of command, and improvising on the fly without approval is not their strong suit by design. That's why I'm a little dumbfounded by the DOGE approach. It pretty much can't work, even in the abstract.

It’s not designed to work in that way and never was. It’s just part of the grift.
 
I am seeing it from afar in simpler terms. Musk is trying to run DOGE through government bureaucracy like he does personally with his own businesses. Because in his mind, government is a business. The problem is he is not good at running his own businesses, and those are ones he at least understands to a certain extent. So his free-wheeling "let that sink in" approach which puts sticks in the spokes of his own companies is far more destructive of government-run services to the country that affects 330 million Americans. In short, he's a kack-handed menace to your society.
 
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It’s not designed to work in that way and never was. It’s just part of the grift.
Yeah. When Agent Orange was talking about setting up a DOGE, I thought it might actually be one thing that worked. Any bureaucracy is inefficient by nature, not just our Feds. But that is by design, requiring redundant approvals specifically to prevent fraud and abuses and keep money going where it's supposed to, with multiple offices aware of it.

Then he started talking about getting rid of the DOE, and I felt that heart racing thing. The DOE are one of the bodies we should be expanding, not demolishing. Then it turned into semi-random firing of pretty much anybody.

So is the idea even salvageable, or has Muskrat tainted it beyond repair?
 
Yeah. When Agent Orange was talking about setting up a DOGE, I thought it might actually be one thing that worked. Any bureaucracy is inefficient by nature, not just our Feds. But that is by design, requiring redundant approvals specifically to prevent fraud and abuses and keep money going where it's supposed to, with multiple offices aware of it.

Then he started talking about getting rid of the DOE, and I felt that heart racing thing. The DOE are one of the bodies we should be expanding, not demolishing. Then it turned into semi-random firing of pretty much anybody.

So is the idea even salvageable, or has Muskrat tainted it beyond repair?
The work force peaked at 2010 but the population went up. So it is not growing and growing. Seasonal type of tasks are handled by contract. Since the gov't does not make the same type of "product" as other work forces, it is just assumed to be inefficient. Not even the salaries are in any way out of line. People take those jobs if their skills match. Think weather reports.
 
The work force peaked at 2010 but the population went up. So it is not growing and growing. Seasonal type of tasks are handled by contract. Since the gov't does not make the same type of "product" as other work forces, it is just assumed to be inefficient. Not even the salaries are in any way out of line. People take those jobs if their skills match. Think weather reports.
Dunno about you, but every encounter I have with the Feds seems needlessly slow and laborious and insanely redundant. The IRS is an example we all are pretty much familiar with. In construction, when a government program is involved, the inception level approvals and authorizations and dear God additional costs and calender pages turning is maddening. It doesn't need to be as complicated as it is, and I'm armchair confident the multiple layers of bureaucracy could be pared away to no liability, if restructured prudently.
 
Yeah. When Agent Orange was talking about setting up a DOGE, I thought it might actually be one thing that worked. Any bureaucracy is inefficient by nature, not just our Feds. But that is by design, requiring redundant approvals specifically to prevent fraud and abuses and keep money going where it's supposed to, with multiple offices aware of it.

Then he started talking about getting rid of the DOE, and I felt that heart racing thing. The DOE are one of the bodies we should be expanding, not demolishing. Then it turned into semi-random firing of pretty much anybody.

So is the idea even salvageable, or has Muskrat tainted it beyond repair?

Probably not. These issue are a function of scale and once any organization becomes big enough it will eventually become mired in bureaucratic inefficiency.

Not that we shouldn’t be working towards efficiency, but I don’t see why this is now or really ever has been a pressing issue. I’d rather have a bloated bureaucracy and social stability than what is happening now. A bloated bureaucracy isn’t ideal, but it tends to kill less people.

But this is all beside the point of what is happening with DOGE. As previously noted, and like every other aspect of Trump’s presidency, DOGE is and always has been a scam.
 
Probably not. These issue are a function of scale and once any organization becomes big enough it will eventually become mired in bureaucratic inefficiency.
Right. It's the US Government. It ain't gonna be run like a small business.
Not that we shouldn’t be working towards efficiency, but I don’t see why this is now or really ever has been a pressing issue. I’d rather have a bloated bureaucracy and social stability than what is happening now. A bloated bureaucracy isn’t ideal, but it tends to kill less people.
Yeah, but I feel like we are not exactly kicking ass in the social stability department. I could stomach a bloated bureaucracy a lot more with single payer health care and living wages, than a bloated bureaucracy with no-account accounting at the Pentagon
But this is all beside the point of what is happening with DOGE. As previously noted, and like every other aspect of Trump’s presidency, DOGE is and always has been a scam.
To my disappointment, it's looking like it. Maybe, slim chance, Musk will have it sink in that this isn't going as he envisioned, and he gets smarter faster?
 
Dunno about you, but every encounter I have with the Feds seems needlessly slow and laborious and insanely redundant. The IRS is an example we all are pretty much familiar with. In construction, when a government program is involved, the inception level approvals and authorizations and dear God additional costs and calender pages turning is maddening. It doesn't need to be as complicated as it is, and I'm armchair confident the multiple layers of bureaucracy could be pared away to no liability, if restructured prudently.
I routinely dealt with federal regulations. They were there for a purpose in the drug industry. I did not need to do the paperwork for the feds but the product needed to pass specs. I wrote and rewrote chemical steps till they passed. The specs and bureaucracy are identical to Europe at this point. They have been "harmonized." American bulk drugs manufactured in China follow US FDA rules as well.

The US Patent agency charges filing fees for all patents and patent lawyers file those for various industries. It is not a waste as the US then gives the filer a patent for about 20 years.

I could also explain the "waste" funding university research. I never filled those applications but did read them once we were approved.
 
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Imma open the betting window for 2028, assuming this forum is still here to collect/pay out.

Not only will democracy be alive, but a conventional election will be held between current VP JD, and whoever is the Democratic nom. Dems win by a safe margin. Trumpomania is dead or dying, largely because Trump followers didnt get the white nationalist paradise they were promised, but did get a wrecked economy that they felt personally. Vance tries to take the helm, but can't pull it off, lacking the orange-hued picture of misery that Trump supporters found so swoonworthy.
 
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Imma open the betting window for 2028, assuming this forum is still here to collect/pay out.

Not only will democracy be alive, but a conventional election will be held between current VP JD, and whoever is the Democratic nom. Dems win by a safe margin. Trumpomania is dead or dying, largely because Trump followers didnt get the white nationalist paradise they were promised, but did get a wrecked economy that they felt personally. Vance tries to take the helm, but can't pull it off, lacking the orange-hued picture of misery that Trump supporters found so swoonworthy.
I hope you are right.
 
Imma open the betting window for 2028, assuming this forum is still here to collect/pay out.

Not only will democracy be alive, but a conventional election will be held between current VP JD, and whoever is the Democratic nom. Dems win by a safe margin. Trumpomania is dead or dying, largely because Trump followers didnt get the white nationalist paradise they were promised, but did get a wrecked economy that they felt personally. Vance tries to take the helm, but can't pull it off, lacking the orange-hued picture of misery that Trump supporters found so swoonworthy.

Let’s circle back to this in ‘26. I think it’s unlikely that Trump will try to cancel elections, but any election Republicans don’t win they will contest and try to invalidate in some way. How well any guardrails we have left hold up in ‘26 will tell us what ‘28 will look like.
 
I've already seen those guardrails fail. Over a decade ago in Colorado local elections resulted in a couple Dems being elected, then a recall was issued, a tiny vote cast, and both Dems replaced with Reps.
 
Let’s circle back to this in ‘26. I think it’s unlikely that Trump will try to cancel elections, but any election Republicans don’t win they will contest and try to invalidate in some way. How well any guardrails we have left hold up in ‘26 will tell us what ‘28 will look like.
Oh, he'll have an election, kinda sorta.
 
A majority of Americans who voted, voted for Trump and the Republicans and all of the ◊◊◊◊ that entails.

They got what they voted for so I guess that's democracy in action.
 
A majority of Americans who voted, voted for Trump and the Republicans and all of the ◊◊◊◊ that entails.

They got what they voted for so I guess that's democracy in action.
And so did the ones who first voted for Putin, Orban, Chaves, Hitler, etc. etc.
But if you vote for someone whose programs is to actively dismantle democracy once they are in power that still destroys democracy, even if you do so democratically.
 
And so did the ones who first voted for Putin, Orban, Chaves, Hitler, etc. etc.
But if you vote for someone whose programs is to actively dismantle democracy once they are in power that still destroys democracy, even if you do so democratically.
It remains to be seen whether Trump (or rather, his successor) can stop or cook the next election. That will be the true test of whether democracy still exists in the USA or not.
 
The entire point of Democracy is to allow for peaceful transition of power whilst maintaining a set of rules and laws no matter who holds power.
This way, individuals, groups and organizations can make plans spanning decades and more, allowing for far greater levels of cooperation and far bigger projects.
For this to work, most people have to be convinced that they can affect political change through their vote, and feel represented by their elected leaders at least some of the time. Otherwise, the discontent that comes from being governed by a group you don't support becomes intolerable.

I would argue that the US fails on all these criteria:
- the transition from Trump to Biden was not peaceful
- politics has failed to create a sufficiently stable socio-economic environment for individuals or organizations to plan further than the next elections
- most people don't feel like their vote counts
- most people don't feel represented, even if the Party they voted for is in power
 
I would argue that the US fails on all these criteria:
- the transition from Trump to Biden was not peaceful
- politics has failed to create a sufficiently stable socio-economic environment for individuals or organizations to plan further than the next elections
- most people don't feel like their vote counts
- most people don't feel represented, even if the Party they voted for is in power
These bullet points have little to do with the definition of democracy. In particular, the 2021 riots did not prevent the transition of power. The existence of groups of ass hole citizens doesn't mean that democracy doesn't exist.

Democracy means that you are free to vote for whom you please, your vote is counted and it has equal weight with other votes.* Some might argue that democracy is compromised in the US because of malapportionment, gerrymandering and voter disenfranchisement. But these have existed since long before Trump's parents committed the sin of fornication and the will of an absolute majority of voters usually carries the day.

* Some might argue that there are good reasons to weight some votes in favour of disadvantaged groups of voters. To what extent this argument is valid and whether this compromises democracy is the subject of endless arguments.
 
Imma open the betting window for 2028, assuming this forum is still here to collect/pay out.

Not only will democracy be alive, but a conventional election will be held between current VP JD, and whoever is the Democratic nom. Dems win by a safe margin. Trumpomania is dead or dying, largely because Trump followers didnt get the white nationalist paradise they were promised, but did get a wrecked economy that they felt personally. Vance tries to take the helm, but can't pull it off, lacking the orange-hued picture of misery that Trump supporters found so swoonworthy.
My prediction. Some Democrat does indeed win the White House in 2028, but the US voting public/gerrymandering allows the Republicans to retain control of the Senate or the House of Representatives. Combined with a majority on the Supreme Court they turn it into 4 years where what they are breaking now stays broken and in 2032, with the blame for the mess helpfully pinned on the Democratic president by social media, the Republicans rally round a new MAGA messiah and finish the job.
 

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