Is Democracy dead in the U.S.?

Is Democracy dead in the U.S.?

  • "It's dead, Jim. I'm just a country doctor, but I know when something's dead, and Democracy's dead!"

    Votes: 12 52.2%

  • "No, Democracy's just fine, really! Ignore all those internment camps and bodies in the streets!"

    Votes: 3 13.0%

  • It's time to flee to Planet X!

    Votes: 11 47.8%
  • Total voters
    23
I keep thinking of the World Democracy Index and how the US would be rated if they published a tally for today (I know it won't happen until 2026, but I mean hypothetically). Hybrid regime? Straight-up authoritarian? Someone on the forums said, in relation to DOGE and the federal hijacking, I think, that the US is now functionally a dictatorship. I guess the question is what happens from here and whether there will be anything resembling elections in 2026 or 2028. So I guess... It depends on whether the Resistance can get 3.5% on the streets? Or what happens when Dump finally, finally passes? Or if the US will even stay united? I don't know anything about how long authoritarian regimes remain so on average once they've made the shift, so I don't know what the odds are.
 
Norman Alexander said:
Perhaps you guys need to explain why you are so despondent about this development. No explanation means we find it hard to sympathise or disagree.
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Who are you calling despondent guys? Some US people are angry about it too. If you live in a liberal bubble, there's only so much you can do besides vote. I don't do protests anymore, because it goes off the rails pretty quickly and generally not covered outside of local news (at least in-depth) because it happens every day..
 
Is democracy dead in the U.S.? No, I don't think so, not yet anyway. Today's budget showdown was a tough one. But I think the Democrats showed real guts in deciding better to keep the government functioning then have it get shutdown in a "showdown with trump."

The New York Times and many others are reporting:
“Today’s vote on the continuing resolution was a difficult and close call, but ultimately, I made the determination that a flawed bill was better than no bill at all,” Brian Schatz, D-Hawaii, said in a statement. “A shutdown would enable Donald Trump and Elon Musk to unilaterally determine that the vast majority of federal workers are not essential. And given the number of federal workers in Hawaii, mass furloughs would be deeply painful for people across the state.” New York Times article link
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What a horrible world we suddenly live in. :(
 
PitPat said:
Who are you calling despondent guys? Some US people are angry about it too. If you live in a liberal bubble, there's only so much you can do besides vote. I don't do protests anymore, because it goes off the rails pretty quickly and generally not covered outside of local news (at least in-depth) because it happens every day..
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Yes, yes. But WHAT HAPPENED!
 
Today I overheard a MAGA conversation.
(MAGA identification based on content and that the parties in question were wearing MAGA gear.)
She lamented the "Constitutional Crisis" that the "Separation of Powers" as set out in the Constitution was being violated by the courts.
According to her understanding, each of the three branches has its own sphere of authority. But now the Judicial Branch is trying to dictate to the Executive Branch what it can or cannot do. Specifically it's interfering with DOGE and telling the President he can't continue the layoffs that are necessary bring the departments under him in line.

For all I know she heard this on FOX. But it's so indicative of the ignorance of the US electorate.
When I was high school student, I took the mandatory Civics Class. We read and were tested over the Constitution. The Checks and Balances of the three branches of government were a big deal.
But just a few years later, Civics classes ceased to be in public schools; replaced by Social Studies that had a just a segment on the topic of US government.

My fellow country people are not just ignorant. We've become primarily a nation of consumers and judge everything through that culture. Liberty has become economic freedom to shop at the Mall an enjoy low, low prices at Walmart and the dollar stores.
Hence we elected an icon of everything that's wrong with America, for the sake of lower egg and gas prices.
(Yes. I know there's more to it in income inequality, blight, and fear of "legacy Americans" losing out.)

Ever since Trump's 45, I've wondered if there are enough of us who do have the education, civic sense, civic responsibility, and just the collective responsibility to look out for each other, for our nation to be Democratic.
With Trump's 47, I'm doubting it.

And yesterday, with the Democrats just handing themselves over to the Party of Trump's agenda,
I can't see there are enough.

We held onto appearances for two centuries plus, in spite of our fascism regarding blacks, native Americans, women, people of sexual and gender variations, and the despised immigrants of each generation. We made some progress, but then came the backlash.
The veneer of egalitarianism and plurality has peeled off. The ugly is oozing out. We are letting the Cancerous Carbuncle's puss cover everything.
This demonic djinn is out of the bottle we hid it in now, and I don't think there are enough of us to force it back in.
We're going to have to experience tyranny on our own soil with our own home grown tyrant, before we can really appreciate political liberty.
And then, we may have to start over from scratch.
 
The Continuing Resolution that keeps the government running until next year, meaning Democratics (and Repugs too) in Congress have nothing more they can do, especially now that the Repugs declared that time isn't passing officially, so it will never be tomorrow for anyone to stop whatever states of emergency Trump declares between now and 2026.
 
Silly Green Monkey said:
The Continuing Resolution that keeps the government running until next year...
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Thank you. Nobody out here knew what this conversation was even about.
Silly Green Monkey said:
...meaning Democratics (and Repugs too) in Congress have nothing more they can do, especially now that the Repugs declared that time isn't passing officially, so it will never be tomorrow for anyone to stop whatever states of emergency Trump declares between now and 2026.
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Is that a ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊ joke?? If not, why does anyone even take them seriously now?
 
Might be that not too many people know they did this. I only found out today, from this forum. It does explain some of why Dems are appearing useless, because they've been cut off from some of the only levers of power minority parties can pull.
 
Given that the level of Democracy in the US is very much optional in the US, depending on the vim of the State and Local Government, and the Parties, it's hard to see it still as a Democracy - it's more a "we will play fair if we think we will anyway" kind of Frankfurt Case (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frankfurt_cases) of Elections.

It hasn't been a Democracy ever since Election results were determined by a few ten thousand people in a few swing States.
 
Silly Green Monkey said:
The Continuing Resolution that keeps the government running until next year, meaning Democratics (and Repugs too) in Congress have nothing more they can do, especially now that the Repugs declared that time isn't passing officially, so it will never be tomorrow for anyone to stop whatever states of emergency Trump declares between now and 2026.
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In case anyone needs further clarification of this:

Republicans use legislative sneak play to tie Democrats' hands on tariffs

In a sneaky legislative maneuver tied into the effort to pass a funding bill and avert a government shutdown, House Republicans earlier this week successfully blocked Democrats from forcing votes and debate on President Donald Trump's controversial tariffs.

It was a somewhat complicated move. But it worked -- and demonstrated that Republicans are attempting to give cover to Trump and his implementation of sweeping tariffs on top U.S. trading partners that have roiled the stock market and stoked diplomatic tensions.

Had Democrats forced a vote and debate on the tariffs, it could have forced Republicans to go on the record on Trump's tariff agenda -- perhaps splitting with the president's actions.
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To tee up Speaker Mike Johnson's temporary government funding bill, which the House passed Tuesday evening, the House first needed to pass what's known as "a rule." Buried inside the text of that rule was legislative language that prevents Democrats from forcing a potentially politically painful vote to end Trump's tariffs on Canada, Mexico and China.

How could Democrats compel a vote to end the tariffs?
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Trump imposed tariffs on Canada, Mexico and China by declaring illegal migration and fentanyl constituted a national emergency under the International Emergency Economic Powers Act and the National Emergencies Act.

But, here's the catch: under the NEA, Congress has the authority to move quickly to terminate that emergency declaration. Top House Democrats tried to do that last week.
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But inside that rule, which passed along party lines and cleared the way for a vote on the House GOP's stopgap funding bill, was a provision prohibiting lawmakers from forcing a vote to terminate the president's border emergency and the resulting tariffs until at least January 2026.

The section reads, "Each day for the remainder of the first session of the 119th Congress shall not constitute a calendar day for purposes of section 202 of the National Emergencies Act with respect to a joint resolution terminating a national emergency declared by the President on February 1, 2025."
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"Guess what they tucked into this rule, hoping nobody would notice? They slipped in a little clause letting them escape ever having to debate or vote on Trump's tariffs. Isn't that clever?" Rep. Jim McGovern, the ranking member on the House Rules Committee, said during floor debate Tuesday.

Congress could still approve a joint resolution to terminate the president's national emergency. That would require the support of both rank-and-file GOP lawmakers and House Republican leadership, which is unlikely.
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Norman Alexander said:
Then if they are saying time stands still for legislative purposes, surely there are some Dem tactics that can take advantage of that. For example, the politicians get paid only one day of salary while this nonsense is in force.
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Obviously, you haven't been paying attention. The Dems don't have the power in Congress to do ANYTHING! They can wring their hands and complain all they want and wear all the pink dresses they want and sing "We Shall Overcome" all they want, but the fact is that we are in this situation because they failed not just to get their Presidential candidate elected, but because they couldn't get two more people elected to the House! They can't do ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊ squat about anything!
 
Norman Alexander said:
That means all their salaries and other perks stop dead too. No disbursements at all . Legislative time has stopped, yes?
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Did you not bother to read what I just posted, or did you not understand it? I'll repost the important part again:

The section reads, "Each day for the remainder of the first session of the 119th Congress shall not constitute a calendar day for purposes of section 202 of the National Emergencies Act with respect to a joint resolution terminating a national emergency declared by the President on February 1, 2025."
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It does not mean that time stands still for everything, only for a specific section of a specific Act.

Apologies for being snippy, I haven't had my coffee yet.
 
Safe-Keeper said:
I keep thinking of the World Democracy Index and how the US would be rated if they published a tally for today (I know it won't happen until 2026, but I mean hypothetically). Hybrid regime? Straight-up authoritarian? Someone on the forums said, in relation to DOGE and the federal hijacking, I think, that the US is now functionally a dictatorship. I guess the question is what happens from here and whether there will be anything resembling elections in 2026 or 2028. So I guess... It depends on whether the Resistance can get 3.5% on the streets? Or what happens when Dump finally, finally passes? Or if the US will even stay united? I don't know anything about how long authoritarian regimes remain so on average once they've made the shift, so I don't know what the odds are.
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Eee-gads, who are you people? This "functionally a dictatorship . . . authoritarian" America exists only in your mind. Maybe you missed the news that yesterday Congress--you know, our still-functioning legislative body--passed the GOP spending bill with the help of some sane Democrats in the Senate. The bill includes increased funding for food assistance for needy families and seniors, fully funds veterans' health care services and benefits, and maintains funding for Social Security and Medicare. It also gives a pay raise to military servicemembers and federal firefighters.

DOGE is saving us tens of billions of dollars in wasteful/fraudulent federal spending. Most people think that not wasting money is a good thing. Most people think that striving to balance the budget, just as all individuals and families have to do, is a good thing.

Speaking of "federal hijacking," did you object when Biden illegally and unilaterally cancelled hundreds of billions of dollars in federal student loan debt without a shred of authorization from the arm of government that funds those loans, i.e., Congress? Did you object when Biden used executive orders to unilaterally redirect over $250 billion in federal spending, ignoring the funding legislation that appropriated that money? If Trump tried to do this to redirect money to border security, you'd be screaming "fascism!" and "dictatorship!" But your side didn't utter a peep when Biden illegally redirected a quarter of a trillion dollars in violation of the authorizing congressional legislation.

Did you object when the Biden administration was censoring speech on social media platforms in the name of combating supposed "disinformation" (read: science-based conclusions made by hundreds of scientists who disagreed with the government's anti-COVID measures)?
 
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Norman Alexander said:
That means all their salaries and other perks stop dead too. No disbursements at all . Legislative time has stopped, yes?
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It's "only for the purposes" of that one bill.

I guess we have a monarch now. Will he change the red in the flag to orange? Or probably we'll just get a new flag, he likes his name to appear in print, in all caps. At five letters it's one of the longest words he's capable of reading so he likes to show it off.
 
We could stop a lot of this horse ◊◊◊◊ if we took these "President Declared States of Emergency" a little more seriously. Like, if the nation is actually in a state of Emergency, the president obviously cannot golf or otherwise take time off. You don't get such luxuries in Emergency situations. No more Big Macs either; military MRE rations only. We'll see in about 45 minutes how much of a real emergency the nation is experiencing.
 
The Great Zaganza said:
It hasn't been a Democracy ever since Election results were determined by a few ten thousand people in a few swing States.
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It wasn't. It was determined by each and every one of those tens of millions of votes just as significantly.

If you have three voters, and the first two vote one for red, and one for blue, the third tiebreaker voter is no more or less significant than the first two. It was just last.

A third of voters don't show up. They are the ones who chose the presidency by default, not a few indecisive nimrods.

For those who whine "but you can always count on some States to vote one way", I give you Ronald Reagan. The electoral college map was on red alert from coast to coast, and it wasn't exactly in the days of antiquity with an illiterate population ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊◊ in buckets. Every state is a swing state when you get your ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊ act together.
 
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Thermal said:
We could stop a lot of this horse ◊◊◊◊ if we took these "President Declared States of Emergency" a little more seriously. Like, if the nation is actually in a state of Emergency, the president obviously cannot golf or otherwise take time off. You don't get such luxuries in Emergency situations. No more Big Macs either; military MRE rations only. We'll see in about 45 minutes how much of a real emergency the nation is experiencing.
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Like when you tell a sick child they have to stay in bed to recover and they make a miraculous recovery?
 
I think this is the big save for salaries etc. : shall not constitute a calendar day
for purposes of section 202 of the National Emergencies Act with respect to a joint resolution terminating a national emergency declared by the President on February 1, 2025
 
the first session of the 119th Congress shall not constitute a calendar day
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What constraints are there on extending the "first session" indefinitely? Does it just require another EO?
 
A government shutdown is exactly, precisely what Muskrat would want to wreak some more havoc without interference. Dems had to take one on the chin to stay in the game. Kudos for doing what must have hurt, but I wouldn't assume they are belly-upping. They are long hauling.
 
Thermal said:
A government shutdown is exactly, precisely what Muskrat would want to wreak some more havoc without interference. Dems had to take one on the chin to stay in the game. Kudos for doing what must have hurt, but I wouldn't assume they are belly-upping. They are long hauling.
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Why cant more Leftees get this?

A government shutdown would have been a gift to DOGE and allow them to keep permanently closed many more agencies once the government gets funded, than with the power they have now.
 
If the government was shut down, DOGE would have a lot more power to say "well you guys are going to stay shut down even though the government has been funded".

Schumer gets it. Why doesn't AOC? Is she dumb?
 
Hercules56 said:
If the government was shut down, DOGE would have a lot more power to say "well you guys are going to stay shut down even though the government has been funded".

Schumer gets it. Why doesn't AOC? Is she dumb?
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Because it makes the Democrats complicit in whatever happens next and no is going to listen when they say the alternative was worse, especially with the media running scared of Trump. When the choice of options is bad or worse, choosing bad isn't a win.
 
Apathia said:
.... We're going to have to experience tyranny on our own soil with our own home grown tyrant, before we can really appreciate political liberty.
And then, we may have to start over from scratch.
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Indeed, indeed. Sadly, that might include WWIII. Can't see how that would not be a nuclear exchange in short order, so "we" may refer to another species.
 
shemp said:
Did you not bother to read what I just posted, or did you not understand it? I'll repost the important part again:


It does not mean that time stands still for everything, only for a specific section of a specific Act.

Apologies for being snippy, I haven't had my coffee yet.
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Yep, i read it. The wording says that while that State of Emergency is in force, the session of congress is at a time standstill. Everybody freeze! The intention is that they can extend the session and thus the State of Emergency indefinitely. The unintended consequence is that they are not racking up paid session days in Congress, and also due dates for other congressional actions like funding never arrive. The date in Congress right now is whatever the ◊◊◊◊ day it was when this SoE started. Pay days since then have not yet happened.

I'll have a latte, please.
 
Norman Alexander said:
Yep, i read it. The wording says that while that State of Emergency is in force, the session of congress is at a time standstill. Everybody freeze! The intention is that they can extend the session and thus the State of Emergency indefinitely. The unintended consequence is that they are not racking up paid session days in Congress, and also due dates for other congressional actions like funding never arrive. The date in Congress right now is whatever the ◊◊◊◊ day it was when this SoE started. Pay days since then have not yet happened.

I'll have a latte, please.
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Whatever. Enjoy your misunderstanding. :nope:
 
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