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[Merged] Hunter Biden pardoned/was Biden right to pardon Hunter?

Was Joe Biden right to pardon his son Hunter?

  • Total voters
    48
plague311 said:
And I'm saying that's bull ◊◊◊◊. Read the thread. Dem POTUS's have pardoned sketchy people for ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊ years, decades even. This isn't new. The only reason people are butthurt and catching the vapors is because it's his son. You have quotes in this ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊ thread saying that the GOP still wants to go after him, despite the pardon and you're here acting like the pardon wasn't necessary? All you're doing is saying, "Hunter should have received the stiffest possible sentence and perpetual harassment for no reason". That's it. It's very clear that not only were the GOP going to go after Hunter, but that they are ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊ rabid about. You want Biden to let his son be railroaded for, what? Some ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊ virtue signaling?

If the GOP isn't going to accept the rule of law, which as the comments above about prosecuting even with the pardon show, then the Dems can't just continue to play nice. Seriously, what the ◊◊◊◊ is going on here?
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Nonsense. In the pardon statement itself Biden says he has always accepted the rule of law and always told the American people the truth.

He said this after months of repeatedly saying he wouldn’t pardon his son for his crimes. Then he did exactly that.

Ah, but if the GOP don’t accept the rule of law why should the Democrats?

Because it shouldn’t just be about politicians acting in their own interests. They are supposed to act in the interests of the public. Not lie to them and give themselves preferential treatment.
 
angrysoba said:
Nonsense. In the pardon statement itself Biden says he has always accepted the rule of law and always told the American people the truth.

He said this after months of repeatedly saying he wouldn’t pardon his son for his crimes. Then he did exactly that.

Ah, but if the GOP don’t accept the rule of law why should the Democrats?

Because it shouldn’t just be about politicians acting in their own interests. They are supposed to act in the interests of the public. Not lie to them and give themselves preferential treatment.
Click to expand...

Lol ok. We have nothing more to talk about. I won't agree with you and you won't agree with me. Have a good one.
 
angrysoba said:
Nonsense. In the pardon statement itself Biden says he has always accepted the rule of law and always told the American people the truth.

He said this after months of repeatedly saying he wouldn’t pardon his son for his crimes. Then he did exactly that.

Ah, but if the GOP don’t accept the rule of law why should the Democrats?

Because it shouldn’t just be about politicians acting in their own interests. They are supposed to act in the interests of the public. Not lie to them and give themselves preferential treatment.
Click to expand...
Of what public interest does imprisoning Hunter for crimes they found during a witch hunt serve? Crimes that no person would serve jail time for, unless their last name was Biden.
 
thaiboxerken said:
Of what public interest does imprisoning Hunter for crimes they found during a witch hunt serve? Crimes that no person would serve jail time for, unless their last name was Biden.
Click to expand...
It's not exactly true that these crimes would not be prosecuted if his name wasn't Biden. Some people are indeed prosecuted for obtaining a firearm while addicted to drugs, and of course some people are convicted for not paying taxes.

The interest here is that Biden himself claimed to want to show how his DOJ was impartial and that the justice system was fair and therefore not undermine it by pardoning his own son. At least part of the reason for doing this was a way to combat the claims of the Trump team who were claiming that the DOJ was being weaponized against him.

So now Biden is pardoning his son, despite insisting he wasn't, on the basis that the justice system was being weaponized against him.
 
angrysoba said:
Nonsense. In the pardon statement itself Biden says he has always accepted the rule of law and always told the American people the truth.

He said this after months of repeatedly saying he wouldn’t pardon his son for his crimes. Then he did exactly that.

Ah, but if the GOP don’t accept the rule of law why should the Democrats?

Because it shouldn’t just be about politicians acting in their own interests. They are supposed to act in the interests of the public. Not lie to them and give themselves preferential treatment.
Click to expand...
Don't forget: A pardon does not expunge guilt, just ends the sentence. So Hunter is still officially guilty of whatever the heck it was he was found guilty of. Not like daddy wiped the slate clean.
 
Norman Alexander said:
Don't forget: A pardon does not expunge guilt, just ends the sentence. So Hunter is still officially guilty of whatever the heck it was he was found guilty of. Not like daddy wiped the slate clean.
Click to expand...
I thought this was one that changed guilt to innocent? There are pardons that commute a sentence and ones that overturns the judgement of the judicial branch.
 
Darat said:
I thought this was one that changed guilt to innocent? There are pardons that commute a sentence and ones that overturns the judgement of the judicial branch.
Click to expand...
It's never been ruled on, but the part of the dictum in Burdick v. United States reads that a pardon carries "an imputation of guilt and acceptance of a confession of it."

Apparently that was part of the reasoning behind Ford's pardon of Nixon, ie. that by accepting the pardon, Nixon would also accept guilt.
 
Norman Alexander said:
He already has, four years ago. He pardoned a whole slew of fellow fascists and gangsters, total ne'er-do-wells, and outright criminals...because they were his buddies or family(ish). So Biden's actions are not "exactly" as wrong as Trump's, because Trump's were as wrong as you can get.
Click to expand...
But Biden pardonning Hunter is cover for T****y's pardons. A wrong cannot be conditionally wrong when you support the person committing it.
 
Gulliver Foyle said:
But Biden pardonning Hunter is cover for T****y's pardons. A wrong cannot be conditionally wrong when you support the person committing it.
Click to expand...
I think this is correct.

On the Serious Trouble podcast they make a good point that while one side portrays itself as a defender of norms and the justice system, the other side is in favour of dismantling it. It’s not a good idea to help it along, which is something this pardon does. It just contributes to the idea that the president can pretty much do what he likes.

Ken White also points out that people on a daily basis get thoroughly screwed over by the justice system all the time. People have been on the receiving end of it and they very seldom get much sympathy. I doubt they will think kindly of the pardon of Hunter Biden who was, let’s face it, actually guilty and in addition, a pretty crappy person all round. Oh sure, we’ve all made mistakes, like had an affair with our brother’s widow. Videotaped ourselves smoking crack (I’m a bit surprised that none of that seems prosecutable, to be honest), etc…

Apparently much of the tax evasions were also done after he was supposedly sobered up as well.

So honestly, why should this guy get off? What makes him special?
 
Gulliver Foyle said:
But Biden pardoning Hunter is cover for T****y's pardons. A wrong cannot be conditionally wrong when you support the person committing it.
Click to expand...
Agreed. Personally I thought Biden did the wrong thing, but not a YUGE! wrong thing. Frankly, if he was ever going to do it on the grounds that Hunter was being hounded unnecessarily for political reasons, he should have pardoned him immediately that became apparent. The MAGA nuts were always going to keep on indefinitely; that was obvious from the start. So not nipping it in the bud but waiting until the last minute was the poor decision, rather than the pardon itself.
 
angrysoba said:
I think this is correct.

On the Serious Trouble podcast they make a good point that while one side portrays itself as a defender of norms and the justice system, the other side is in favour of dismantling it. It’s not a good idea to help it along, which is something this pardon does. It just contributes to the idea that the president can pretty much do what he likes.

Ken White also points out that people on a daily basis get thoroughly screwed over by the justice system all the time. People have been on the receiving end of it and they very seldom get much sympathy. I doubt they will think kindly of the pardon of Hunter Biden who was, let’s face it, actually guilty and in addition, a pretty crappy person all round. Oh sure, we’ve all made mistakes, like had an affair with our brother’s widow. Videotaped ourselves smoking crack (I’m a bit surprised that none of that seems prosecutable, to be honest), etc…

Apparently much of the tax evasions were also done after he was supposedly sobered up as well.

So honestly, why should this guy get off? What makes him special?
Click to expand...
My personal answer is that Hunter was not special at all. Sounds like a bit of a privileged knob, actually. But the MAGA nuts were trying to make his peccadillos famous so that by implication they could attack his dad. In MAGA world, Hunter's equivalent is Donald "Sniffy" Trump Jr.
 
Norman Alexander said:
My personal answer is that Hunter was not special at all. Sounds like a bit of a privileged knob, actually. But the MAGA nuts were trying to make his peccadillos famous so that by implication they could attack his dad. In MAGA world, Hunter's equivalent is Donald "Sniffy" Trump Jr.
Click to expand...
Yes, which is why I would be similarly outraged if Trump pardoned his son for all and any illegal acts over a certain period. Trump makes literally everything he does all about him, and he is thoroughly corrupt when it comes to power.

The Democrats are not, in my opinion, thoroughly corrupt, but excusing this kind of thing, which while nowhere near as bad as what Trump does, looks to me like moral licensing. I think it wouldn't be so bad if Biden copped to it and just said that he can't justify it politically and is not asking for the understanding of the party or the liberal world etc... but only wanting to be excused on the basis that he is an old man with few years left who loves his son and wants to spend time with him. Then he could at least message the rest of his party that they don't have to condone his actions, just see it as some sentimental indulgence, etc...

OR, he could have waited until the sentencing which was due within days. If the sentence had been something outrageous like 25 years, then he could pardon his son, or commute the sentence, etc... that would have been more understandable.

OR, he could have simply accepted these charges and sentence and said what's done is done now, and then made a blanket pardon on Hunter Biden from the day of his birth to the current day, to avoid lawfare, etc... BUT that 2014 date looks ... well... not good. It almost makes it look as though there is something very specific being protected. That looks bad.
 
Moral licensing? I don't tink so. It is illegal to punch a person in the face. However, if the other person attacks you, it is legal. Biden's pardon is a form of defense from attacks that The Party initiated and promised to continue.
There is nothing wrong with Biden's pardon.
 
Gulliver Foyle said:
But Biden pardonning Hunter is cover for T****y's pardons. A wrong cannot be conditionally wrong when you support the person committing it.
Click to expand...

Yes, in a rational world, Biden's pardons would be considered hypocritical when trying to criticize the pardons of Stubby McBonespurs.

But we are no longer in a rational world. Regardless of how much integrity the Democrats show, regardless of how scummy the republicans act, the MAGAchud will always spin a narrative that "Democrats are evil/republicans are saints".

If the MAGAchud aren't going to look at facts/evidence/etc. and judge Trump and Biden on their actual merits, then why bother playing nice? Might as well roll with it.
 
i don't know why biden would be expected to sacrifice his son to legitimize a justice system what we know is broken and corrupted. hunter biden was treated unfairly and also got special treatment from his president dad. most people would simply be treated unfairly. hunter biden's undue suffering or privileged mercy doesn't really change any of that.
 
Segnosaur said:
Yes, in a rational world, Biden's pardons would be considered hypocritical when trying to criticize the pardons of Stubby McBonespurs.

But we are no longer in a rational world. Regardless of how much integrity the Democrats show, regardless of how scummy the republicans act, the MAGAchud will always spin a narrative that "Democrats are evil/republicans are saints".

If the MAGAchud aren't going to look at facts/evidence/etc. and judge Trump and Biden on their actual merits, then why bother playing nice? Might as well roll with it.
Click to expand...
I wouldn't mind if he broke the norms for the right reasons. If Biden had used his presidential immunity to rendition T****y and all his associates to Gitmo as enemy foreign combatants and subsequently permanently disappear them, I wouldn't bat an eyelash.

However to pardon his son of crimes he committed like a Borgia, and to do so in such a way as to heavily imply that the nazis were right to be investigating Hunter? Not just bad and immoral, but stupid with it too.
 
The major argument against the prosecution of Biden Jr. for the gun crime is that it is not a real crime. That it is just an add on crime. Or it is just a crime used to get people you don't like or you think deserve punishment but you can't get on a regular crime. Like...
www.cbsnews.com

Mother of Virginia child who shot teacher sentenced to 21 months for using marijuana while owning gun

Deja Taylor was sentenced Wednesday to 21 months in prison for using marijuana while owning a firearm.
www.cbsnews.com www.cbsnews.com
This seems to be a very bad reason for having a law. A law should either be enforced impartially or be abolished not kept to be used on special occasions.

I do think that being in possesion of a gun whilst being a drug addict is good grounds for confiscation of a firearm (although this maybe unconsitutional). I do think lying on an application for a gun permit should be prosecuted. I think Biden Sr as a gun control advocate should have supported the prosecution and called for the law to be enforced (I believe he voted in favour of the law). Of note Biden Jr had purchased the gun with the intent of using it (that the intended victim of the planned homicide was himself just reinforces the need for strict gun control). The majority of firearm deaths in the US are self-inflicted. Reducing fire arm deaths does mean reducing self-inflicted shootings and that does mean enforcing the restriction on possesion. Surprisingly things like enforcing a question like 'do you intend to harm yourself or others', would be effective in reducing gun harm, even people thinking about suicide can be discouraged from action if they think it might result in a penalty if they change their mind.

There is no evidence the judge was going to make an excessive sentence, and it would have been likely to have been served at a minimum security establishment. Biden's argument was that any time behind bars was too much for his little boy. From my understanding Biden Sr had time to wait and see what the punishment was before pardoning him.

The very open ended pardon does raise the suspicion that there is something else out there more serious. I don't think once in office Trump would have pursued Biden Jr. He got his revenge on Biden Sr by winning.

I do think that one could re-write Lear with Biden Sr in the title role; 'The True Chronicle Historic of the Rise and Fall* of President Biden and his Three Sons'.

* Given he is not yet dead, we cannot yet have 'the Life and Death'.
 
Planigale said:
The major argument against the prosecution of Biden Jr. for the gun crime is that it is not a real crime. That it is just an add on crime.
Click to expand...
There are a lot of those around guns. I was on a jury once where a guy shot someone. Obviously that was the biggest charge, but they also tried to get him for knowing that the serial number on the gun had been scratched out. It was such a silly addition that even the prosecution forgot to argue about it, it was read out as a charge but then never brought up in evidence at all.
 
If I was Biden, or any prominent Democrat, I wouldn't want a relative of mine doing federal time during the reign of King Donny.

What am I implying? What in hell do you think I'm implying?
 
For me one of the biggest pieces of evidence that the Trump charges were legitimate and enforceable was Biden’s acceptance that his own son was just as subject to the law as Trump.

Biden managed to completely destroy that premise.
 
Planigale said:
The major argument against the prosecution of Biden Jr. for the gun crime is that it is not a real crime. That it is just an add on crime. Or it is just a crime used to get people you don't like or you think deserve punishment but you can't get on a regular crime. Like...
www.cbsnews.com

Mother of Virginia child who shot teacher sentenced to 21 months for using marijuana while owning gun

Deja Taylor was sentenced Wednesday to 21 months in prison for using marijuana while owning a firearm.
www.cbsnews.com www.cbsnews.com
This seems to be a very bad reason for having a law. A law should either be enforced impartially or be abolished not kept to be used on special occasions.

I do think that being in possesion of a gun whilst being a drug addict is good grounds for confiscation of a firearm (although this maybe unconsitutional). I do think lying on an application for a gun permit should be prosecuted. I think Biden Sr as a gun control advocate should have supported the prosecution and called for the law to be enforced (I believe he voted in favour of the law). Of note Biden Jr had purchased the gun with the intent of using it (that the intended victim of the planned homicide was himself just reinforces the need for strict gun control). The majority of firearm deaths in the US are self-inflicted. Reducing fire arm deaths does mean reducing self-inflicted shootings and that does mean enforcing the restriction on possesion. Surprisingly things like enforcing a question like 'do you intend to harm yourself or others', would be effective in reducing gun harm, even people thinking about suicide can be discouraged from action if they think it might result in a penalty if they change their mind.

There is no evidence the judge was going to make an excessive sentence, and it would have been likely to have been served at a minimum security establishment. Biden's argument was that any time behind bars was too much for his little boy. From my understanding Biden Sr had time to wait and see what the punishment was before pardoning him.

The very open ended pardon does raise the suspicion that there is something else out there more serious. I don't think once in office Trump would have pursued Biden Jr. He got his revenge on Biden Sr by winning.

I do think that one could re-write Lear with Biden Sr in the title role; 'The True Chronicle Historic of the Rise and Fall* of President Biden and his Three Sons'.

* Given he is not yet dead, we cannot yet have 'the Life and Death'.
Click to expand...
I think the fact that the judge had not sentenced Hunter yet is one of the most egregious parts of the pardon.

Let’s say he got a few months for his crimes, Biden could just let him serve that. Or if the sentence was excessive (25 years, for example) then it would be far more excusable to pardon that.

That said, the US justice system often has crazy sentencing. Did Bernie Madoff get something like 150 years for ripping off the wrong people? (Rich people mostly, although some poor people also got scammed).
 
angrysoba said:
I think the fact that the judge had not sentenced Hunter yet is one of the most egregious parts of the pardon.

Let’s say he got a few months for his crimes, Biden could just let him serve that. Or if the sentence was excessive (25 years, for example) then it would be far more excusable to pardon that.

That said, the US justice system often has crazy sentencing. Did Bernie Madoff get something like 150 years for ripping off the wrong people? (Rich people mostly, although some poor people also got scammed).
Click to expand...
Nah, the worst part was the pardoning for any crimes that might have been committed in an 11 year period, kind of implies there are some crime that were committed about 10.5 years ago.
 
ahhell said:
Nah, the worst part was the pardoning for any crimes that might have been committed in an 11 year period, kind of implies there are some crime that were committed about 10.5 years ago.
Click to expand...
Probably just wanted to cover the whole Burisma timeline. Hunter joined Burisma in April of 2014. If the pardon only went back ten years and didn't cover the first eight months of Hunter sitting on the Burisma Board, it would have given the GOP an opening for more hearings about the Burisma nothingburger.
 
Random said:
Probably just wanted to cover the whole Burisma timeline. Hunter joined Burisma in April of 2014. If the pardon only went back ten years and didn't cover the first eight months of Hunter sitting on the Burisma Board, it would have given the GOP an opening for more hearings about the Burisma nothingburger.
Click to expand...
Sure, it also provides immunity for actual crimes that may have been committed, and this is the most unusual thing about the pardon of Hunter. As far as I know that has only been done once before by Ford and is far more questionable than pardoning someone even a relation before a sentencing. The before sentencing thing is neither here nor there, I don't think I've even heard any Republicans complaining about that.

Second most dubious thing, bypassing the standard process. There is an Office of Pardon Attorney in the DOJ that is meant to review applications and make recommendations to the president. They didn't do that. IMHO, not that big a deal, of course Biden pardoned his son. He probably should have gone through the process but, meh.
 
ahhell said:
Sure, it also provides immunity for actual crimes that may have been committed, and this is the most unusual thing about the pardon of Hunter. As far as I know that has only been done once before by Ford and is far more questionable than pardoning someone even a relation before a sentencing. The before sentencing thing is neither here nor there, I don't think I've even heard any Republicans complaining about that.

Second most dubious thing, bypassing the standard process. There is an Office of Pardon Attorney in the DOJ that is meant to review applications and make recommendations to the president. They didn't do that. IMHO, not that big a deal, of course Biden pardoned his son. He probably should have gone through the process but, meh.
Click to expand...
But it kind of had to be written to include any crimes Hunter might have committed didn't it? If the GOP goal is to wishcast prosecutable crimes into existence, then any list of specific crimes to be pardoned would just leave the GOP investigations in place, but looking for a crime not on the list.
 
Random said:
But it kind of had to be written to include any crimes Hunter might have committed didn't it? If the GOP goal is to wishcast prosecutable crimes into existence, then any list of specific crimes to be pardoned would just leave the GOP investigations in place, but looking for a crime not on the list.
Click to expand...
"Aha! Hunter Biden did knowingly whistle on a Sunday! Which is a violation of a Massachusetts Bay Colony law of 1631. Also he committed the medieval offenses of drossilage and pumnatence, and didn't have his pet cat registered with a bishop as having been shroven of demons. And there's no record Hunter Biden ever tithed an bushel of wheat unto Caesar's representative on the tenth day of the Festival of Saturn! GIVE HIM THE CHAIR!!!!"
 
A former FBI informant pleaded guilty on Monday to lying about a phony bribery scheme involving President Joe Biden and his son Hunter that became central to the Republican impeachment inquiry in Congress.

apnews.com

Former FBI informant pleads guilty to lying about phony bribery scheme involving the Bidens

A former FBI informant has pleaded guilty to lying about a phony bribery scheme involving President Joe Biden and his son, Hunter, that became central to a Republican impeachment inquiry in Congress.
apnews.com apnews.com
 
TragicMonkey said:
"Aha! Hunter Biden did knowingly
whistle on a Sunday! Which is a violation of a Massachusetts Bay Colony law of 1631. Also he committed the medieval offenses of drossilage and pumnatence, and didn't have his pet cat registered with a bishop as having been shroven of demons. And there's no record Hunter Biden ever tithed an bushel of wheat unto Caesar's representative on the tenth day of the Festival of Saturn! GIVE HIM THE CHAIR!!!!"
Click to expand...
Why do you think God has been inflicting all these punishments on the people? Tornados, hurricanes, forest fires, droughts, floods, all because Hunter Biden whistled on a Sunday. God has clearly expressed his opinion, but Biden sr with all the hubris from being POTUS will not hear the words of the prophets as Abraham was commanded to give up his son Isaac, so Jo should have given up Hunter. But he rejected justice, so the wrath of God will fall upon the people of the USA. He has sent his revenging angel Donald to lay waste to the USA.
 
Hunter isn't any where near Biden's worst.
One of the Judges involved in the cash for kids bribery scam.
Rita Crundwell, a women that embezzled 53 million dollars from a town of 15000 people.

This seems to be mostly because they didn't vet a list of folks that were sentenced to home confinement and the got lost among the 1500 other people he pardoned.
 
Resume said:
Paul Manafort. Roger Stone. Michael Flynn. Stephen Bannon, George Papadopoulus.

Etc.
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You Too! Don't get me wrong, pretty much every president does this and I'm sure Trump will find someone worse. But Biden commuted the sentence of a judge that sold children to a prison, at least one of whom killed themselves afterward.
 
sackett said:
If I was Biden, or any prominent Democrat, I wouldn't want a relative of mine doing federal time during the reign of King Donny.

What am I implying? What in hell do you think I'm implying?
Click to expand...
I lost a lot of money on all that "Hunter Biden didn't kill himself" merch I pre-ordered.
 
The fact that the "informant" for the bribery allegations came forward and admitted to fabricating it all is proof that this was a political witch-hunt.
 
Random said:
Probably just wanted to cover the whole Burisma timeline. Hunter joined Burisma in April of 2014. If the pardon only went back ten years and didn't cover the first eight months of Hunter sitting on the Burisma Board, it would have given the GOP an opening for more hearings about the Burisma nothingburger.
Click to expand...
But by specifically earmarking the Burisma timeline it implicitly acknowledges that the nazis were right.
 
Random said:
"By pardoning Hunter Biden for any conceivable imaginary crime we might have hallucinated that he committed, Joe Biden has conclusively proven that all of the imaginary crimes we hallucinated were real!"
Click to expand...

You read my mind, verbatim. I don't think Joe thought there were any more crimes at all, I think he just wanted the GOP to leave his kid alone and by pardoning him for the timeline the GOP is butthurt about it would stop the harassment. It's not that hard to piece together what his thought process was while doing this, and not to be Captain Obvious here but Biden isn't playing 25D chess.

That being said, I'm not going to be shocked at all of State Attorneys for GOP states now try to open investigations because of the pardon. In fact, I think Trump will push states to do it. If he did it for an entire country why wouldn't he withhold funding to GOP or even Dem run states unless they charge Hunter.
 
Considering they're planning to prosecute Liz Cheney for daring to investigate Trump, it's pretty clear that justice is not the goal being pursued. The legal system is the enforcement wing of the king's displeasure. It doesn't matter if the charges are true or false, if they're for actual crimes or not.
 
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