Human Rights Watch report accuses Israel of crimes against humanity, apartheid.

[TurkeysGhost]

About 6.8 million Jewish Israelis and 6.8 million Palestinians live today between the Mediterranean Sea and Jordan River, an area encompassing Israel and the Occupied Palestinian Territory (OPT), the latter made up of the West Bank, including East Jerusalem, and the Gaza Strip. Throughout most of this area, Israel is the sole governing power; in the remainder, it exercises primary authority alongside limited Palestinian self-rule. Across these areas and in most aspects of life, Israeli authorities methodically privilege Jewish Israelis and discriminate against Palestinians. Laws, policies, and statements by leading Israeli officials make plain that the objective of maintaining Jewish Israeli control over demographics, political power, and land has long guided government policy. In pursuit of this goal, authorities have dispossessed, confined, forcibly separated, and subjugated Palestinians by virtue of their identity to varying degrees of intensity. In certain areas, as described in this report, these deprivations are so severe that they amount to the crimes against humanity of apartheid and persecution.

https://www.hrw.org/report/2021/04/27/threshold-crossed/israeli-authorities-and-crimes-apartheid-and-persecution#

 

[Belz...]

We all know where this discussion is going: "Israel has a right to exist!".

 

[TurkeysGhost]

We all know where this discussion is going: "Israel has a right to exist!".

Followed by the contradiction that it has a right to be a Jewish state, but is also a Democracy.

 

[theprestige]

OLOL. I don't think the discussion is going anywhere. HRW and others say this kind of thing about Israel all the time. It's not news. There's nothing here to discuss, that hasn't been discussed to death already. Both of you have already gotten as far as raising non sequiturs just so you can preemptively dismiss them without discussion. What's that called? Well poisoning?

 

[Belz...]

OLOL. I don't think the discussion is going anywhere. HRW and others say this kind of thing about Israel all the time. It's not news. There's nothing here to discuss, that hasn't been discussed to death already. Both of you have already gotten as far as raising non sequiturs just so you can preemptively dismiss them without discussion. What's that called? Well poisoning?

Those aren't non-sequiturs. They come up in literally every discussion on this topic. Apparently, Israel obvious right to exist as a nation means we can't criticise their policies.

 

[theprestige]

Hahaha. The only reason it came up is because you brought it up. And of course it's a non sequitur. Nothing in the report challenges Israel's right to exist.

I don't know what's more sad. That you want to argue about Israel so much that you'll argue both sides yourself. Or that you can't even be bothered to at least make the argument relevant to the OP.

 

[JoeMorgue]

If only God would clarify which tribe of illiterate goat herders he promised this goddamn strip of worthless desert scrubland to a couple thousand years ago...

 

[Belz...]

Hahaha. The only reason it came up is because you brought it up.

Now you're just being ridiculous. That was my whole point: to bring it up before the usual suspects do.

Nothing in the report challenges Israel's right to exist.

Nothing ever does, and yet the argument aways pops up. Apparently we can't discuss the settlements policy or accuse Israel of anything bad because that would mean it doesn't have a right to exist. This argument comes from the conservatives, not me.

That you want to argue about Israel so much that you'll argue both sides yourself.

What are you even talking about? When do I bring up Israel except in the few threads on the topic?

 

[theprestige]

See what I mean? There's no criticism of Israel's policies here. Just, huh, that's funny: Someone questioning the justification for Israel's existence? An issue that was supposedly never in doubt and had already been dismissed?

The discussion isn't going anywhere because you don't want it to go anywhere. To you, it's just an excuse for some low effort Israel bashing.

You want to get away from the same old? Up your game. Address the points raised in the OP. Give us your skeptical analysis of the report's claims.

This two minutes hate is beneath you.

 

[JoeMorgue]

Go use us as bad example in FMF then if you hate it so much.

 

[Belz...]

See what I mean? There's no criticism of Israel's policies here.

Er... there is in the OP.

Are you in contrarian mode today? Or did you feel attacked by the fact that I preempted your "side"'s arguments?

The discussion isn't going anywhere because you don't want it to go anywhere. To you, it's just an excuse for some low effort Israel bashing.

And there it is! BAM!

There can't be a single criticism of Israel without being called an Israel basher! The funny things is, I didn't even criticise Israel in this thread. Just the knee-jerk defenders, and even that's too much for you!

So it seems that you were lying earlier. You have done exactly what I predicted; even after reading my prediction, you couldn't help yourself.

You want to get away from the same old? Up your game.

What are you talking about now? What same old? Are you confusing me with another poster?

If anything, it's other posters, like you, who were blocking discussion on this issue. Just like in the trans threads anyone who disagrees with one side is called a bigot, no one here can say anything that disagrees with the conservative side without being accused of being an antisemite.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

Israel's campaign of ethnic oppression in Palestine back in the news with latest flare-up of violence.

Sheikh Jarrah is now practically a war zone as armed Israeli settlers, under the protection of Israeli police, terrorize the Palestinian residents. These are the very settlers who are looking to kick out families, including El-Kurd’s.

Sheikh Jarrah is the latest flashpoint of Israel’s expansionist project. The threats of eviction are part of what Palestinians describe as their “ongoing Nakba,” because the removal and forced exile of 80 percent of historic Palestine’s native population between 1947 and 1949 was not a singular event. It is the same reality we saw in Khan al-Ahmar, and in Araqib before that, and it is how every settlement was solidified, from Tel Aviv in 1948 to the newer settlements of Maali Adumim and Givat Hamatos in the West Bank.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2021/05/10/israel-sheikh-jarrah-palestinians-jerusalem-violence-evictions-settlers/

Seems that the lesson that Israel took from the Holocaust is that's it's much preferable to wear the jackboot than it is too be kicked by it.

 

[Belz...]

I can't say I'm too versed in this particular incident... but this morning I was thinking back to Quebec's independance movement back in the 60s and 70s...

...if some dumb **** from Quebec decided to bomb a building in Ottawa, I doubt the federal government would launch a military offensive in the province and bomb hospitals and such.

So while I understand that having terrorists bomb the **** out of you is something you have to respond to, I don't understand the nature of the response: how does that solve anything?

 

[TurkeysGhost]

I can't say I'm too versed in this particular incident... but this morning I was thinking back to Quebec's independance movement back in the 60s and 70s...

...if some dumb **** from Quebec decided to bomb a building in Ottawa, I doubt the federal government would launch a military offensive in the province and bomb hospitals and such.

So while I understand that having terrorists bomb the **** out of you is something you have to respond to, I don't understand the nature of the response: how does that solve anything?

I suppose the situation will be solved, from the Israeli perspective, when the tiny amount of remaining Palestinian territory is settled and the population is either eradicated or displaced.

A good, old-fashioned ethnic cleansing.

 

[Belz...]

I suppose the situation will be solved, from the Israeli perspective, when the tiny amount of remaining Palestinian territory is settled and the population is either eradicated or displaced.

A good, old-fashioned ethnic cleansing.

That's the part I don't understand. Israelis are uniquely experienced in exactly this sort of thing. You'd think they'd squirm at the very idea of committing such a thing.

And it's annoying for me to say this because Israel remains the beacon of democracy in the middle-east, and then it does things like this. Just give the Palestinians a ******* state.

 

[ponderingturtle]

That's the part I don't understand. Israelis are uniquely experienced in exactly this sort of thing. You'd think they'd squirm at the very idea of committing such a thing.

Please I have heard Israeli citizens directly advocating the reprisal policies of Rinehart Heidrich. They learned well how to deal with subject peoples.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

That's the part I don't understand. Israelis are uniquely experienced in exactly this sort of thing. You'd think they'd squirm at the very idea of committing such a thing.

And it's annoying for me to say this because Israel remains the beacon of democracy in the middle-east, and then it does things like this. Just give the Palestinians a ******* state.

Dancing is a type of squirming, if you think about it:

Hard to capture how deeply horrifying this video is. Thousands of Israeli Jews singing about revenge, chanting "Yimach shemam (may their names be erased)," dancing as a fire burns on the Temple Mount.

This is genocidal animus towards Palestinians — emboldened and unfiltered.

https://twitter.com/simonerzim/status/1391869749303316483

There are plenty of Jews, both Israeli citizens and abroad, that are disgusted by such tactics. Unfortunately they do not wield much power in the Israeli government.

 

[Meadmaker]

If only God would clarify which tribe of illiterate goat herders he promised this goddamn strip of worthless desert scrubland to a couple thousand years ago...

Yeah.


The whole middle east situation is nuts. As I put it to my they n eleven year old son, who was attending a Jewish school at the time, there are about 100 billion known galaxies in the observable universe, and about 100 billion stars in a galaxy, and around one of those stars, there is a planet 24,000 miles in diameter where seven billion people live, and the God that created all of those things is supposedly vary concerned about what happens on one specific rock.

As for the OP, I really don't know what to think about Israel. On the one hand, it's undoubtedly true that they discriminate, and sometimes in really important ways.

On the other hand, their nation is freer, more democratic, and more respectful of human rights than any nation in their vicinity, and they really are surrounded by a huge number of people who, at the very least, want to end the existence of the nation. A lot of them would be perfectly happy to kill the people, too, just to make sure the nation doesn't come back.

It's a mess. How do you even judge "human rights" in such a situation?

In the end, I think the idea of a "Jewish state" is just a bad idea from the beginning, but I compare that to a group that was calling itself an "Islamic State", just a few years ago, and I think the Jewish state was better.

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

We all know where this discussion is going: "Israel has a right to exist!".

It doesn't half push its right to exist. I can't help thinking that if a Muslim state was acting like this then American tanks would be 'liberating' it right about now.

Of course Israel has the GOP and apparently half the Democrats as well in its pocket so it's fine to do whatever it wants.

 

[Meadmaker]

I skimmed through the Human Rights Watch report that the OP quoted from.

It's not that it's wrong. There really is a problem in that part of the world, and Israel is not exactly a model of tolerance, inclusion, and egalitarianism.

Wouldn't it be nice if all the human rights abuses just went away? What would happen if one day an Israeli party won the elections on a promise of abandoning the notion of a "Jewish state", and just declared that there will be a democracy where all people have equal rights, and no religion was established, and no religious or ethnic group had any special standing or privilege.

Does anything think it would last?

If such a place existed anywhere within 1000 miles of Israel, then maybe I could take that idea seriously.

Maybe one does. How's Armenia doing these days? Greece isn't so bad. How far away is that?

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

Wouldn't it be nice if all the human rights abuses just went away? What would happen if one day an Israeli party won the elections on a promise of abandoning the notion of a "Jewish state", and just declared that there will be a democracy where all people have equal rights, and no religion was established, and no religious or ethnic group had any special standing or privilege.

Wouldn't it be nice? It probably would be. If it's not possible then at least the Land of the Free (TM) might want to consider not holding it up as a shining light of righteousness in the Middle East and arming them to the teeth so they can continue their abuses?

Or maybe even step in and stop the ethnic cleansing and occupation of territory that doesn't belong to them?

Can't help but think that if Israel is just the same as anyone else in the region then they would cause a lot less trouble if they were only armed to the same extent?

If Israel were treated the same as any other Middle East theocracy then the world would probably be a better place.

 

[Meadmaker]

Can't help but think that if Israel is just the same as anyone else in the region then they would cause a lot less trouble if they were only armed to the same extent?

If Israel were treated the same as any other Middle East theocracy then the world would probably be a better place.

It is my opinion that if Israel were treated the same way as any other Middle East theocracy, at least as arms and support go, there wouldn't be an Israel for much longer.

And, in the long run, that probably would make the world a better place, but in the short run it would really suck for the people who happen to live in that spot on the map right now.


It just seems to me that the only pressure we (which could be the US, or NATO, or some set of generally civilized countries) can apply is, basically, "Do what we want or we will let the Arabs/Muslims drive you into the sea." Because that really is what the enemies of Israel want. They don't want a liberal democracy in their midst. They just want to get rid of the Jewish state.

I don't want any "________ish state" anywhere, but as much as I agree with that goal in principle, I don't really trust the Palestinian leadership to implement the solution.

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

It is my opinion that if Israel were treated the same way as any other Middle East theocracy, at least as arms and support go, there wouldn't be an Israel for much longer.

And, in the long run, that probably would make the world a better place, but in the short run it would really suck for the people who happen to live in that spot on the map right now.

As opposed to the people who live next to that spot on the map (or actually in the spot but don't happen to be Jewish)?

But that's not actually true is it? Because as was seen in for example Kuwait if a hostile foreign power invaded them then the world would rightly come to their aid.

It may also be the case that just being a normal country in the middle east may make Israel have to behave as if they have to be neighbours rather than playing a game of tit for tat that they can't lose?

It just seems to me that the only pressure we (which could be the US, or NATO, or some set of generally civilized countries) can apply is, basically, "Do what we want or we will let the Arabs/Muslims drive you into the sea." Because that really is what the enemies of Israel want. They don't want a liberal democracy in their midst. They just want to get rid of the Jewish state.

Not at all. if as you suggest the very survival of Israel is predicated on US support then the US could if it wanted to say 'we will defend you against any existential threat but don't commit war crimes against your neighbours/own people. If you continue to do so we won't defend you, but if you behave properly we will'

I don't want any "________ish state" anywhere, but as much as I agree with that goal in principle, I don't really trust the Palestinian leadership to implement the solution.

The Palestinian leadership is in no position to be the deciding voice on that matter. The idea that the US has to arm/enable Israel to the point where it can do whatever it wants with impunity or else Israel won't exist anymore is the ultimate false dichotomy. Israel needs to stop expanding. Stop ethnic cleansing. at the point it does that it deserves to be defended by the international community against any and all attacks.

The problem in part seems to be that there are a bunch of religious nutjobs in America who regard Israel as part of 'God's plan' and are actively fomenting conflict.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

So is this Bibi making himself relevant at a time of his personal political danger?


A little wagging the dog?

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

So is this Bibi making himself relevant at a time of his personal political danger?

That's quite a distasteful way to reference murdering innocent people.

Was the Holocaust 'Hitler trying to make himself relevant'?

I really find it distasteful when people attempt to politic over the blood of human beings. No matter what colour, creed, race or religion.

That's not meant to be an attack on you so much as just the way these things get framed by those remote enough not to have to worry about them

 

[TurkeysGhost]

As opposed to the people who live next to that spot on the map (or actually in the spot but don't happen to be Jewish)?

But that's not actually true is it? Because as was seen in for example Kuwait if a hostile foreign power invaded them then the world would rightly come to their aid.

It may also be the case that just being a normal country in the middle east may make Israel have to behave as if they have to be neighbours rather than playing a game of tit for tat that they can't lose?



Not at all. if as you suggest the very survival of Israel is predicated on US support then the US could if it wanted to say 'we will defend you against any existential threat but don't commit war crimes against your neighbours/own people. If you continue to do so we won't defend you, but if you behave properly we will'



The Palestinian leadership is in no position to be the deciding voice on that matter. The idea that the US has to arm/enable Israel to the point where it can do whatever it wants with impunity or else Israel won't exist anymore is the ultimate false dichotomy. Israel needs to stop expanding. Stop ethnic cleansing. at the point it does that it deserves to be defended by the international community against any and all attacks.

The problem in part seems to be that there are a bunch of religious nutjobs in America who regard Israel as part of 'God's plan' and are actively fomenting conflict.

Indeed.

The US makes allies with all sorts, including despots and routine human righs abusers. At least when the US cozies up to a country like Saudia Arabia, it's clearly a case of real politik in exchange for some strategic necessity.

The difference with the US relationship with Israel is that so many treat Israel as a sacred cow that can do no wrong. They aren't just important allies, they are pure as the driven snow beset on all sides by pure evil. Such an attitude makes it impossible for the US to wield any of the traditional carrots and sticks of international diplomacy. The Israelis know that our support is nearly unconditional, which plays a big roll in their pogrom against the Palestinian people within the occupational area.

 

[JoeMorgue]

Again someone God on the phone and clarify with him which group of illiterate goat herders he promised this strip of desert scrub land to a few thousand years ago.

That's the only way we're gonna solve this.

"Ancestral homeland" is such a ******* stupid and toxic concept.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

Again someone God on the phone and clarify with him which group of illiterate goat herders he promised this strip of desert scrub land to a few thousand years ago.

That's the only way we're gonna solve this.

"Ancestral homeland" is such a ******* stupid and toxic concept.

While we're on hold with the big fella we can probably make a call on the Palestinians that are being pushed out of their current homes by fanatical, unhinged Israeli settlers.

The UN has already declared that such settlement activity is blatant violation of international law, not that such things matter in Israel.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

That's quite a distasteful way to reference murdering innocent people.

Was the Holocaust 'Hitler trying to make himself relevant'?

I really find it distasteful when people attempt to politic over the blood of human beings. No matter what colour, creed, race or religion.

That's not meant to be an attack on you so much as just the way these things get framed by those remote enough not to have to worry about them

OMG! How distasteful to point out the obvious.

Bibi is barely hanging on politically, requiring his party to form a coalition and low and behold, here comes a military crisis.


You don't think this is all about politics and only poitics?

 

[Garrison]

On the other hand, their nation is freer, more democratic, and more respectful of human rights than any nation in their vicinity, and they really are surrounded by a huge number of people who, at the very least, want to end the existence of the nation. A lot of them would be perfectly happy to kill the people, too, just to make sure the nation doesn't come back.

I think you could say much the same about Apartheid era South Africa, which is probably a more relevant and less easy to bury in indignation example than Nazi Germany.

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

OMG! How distasteful to point out the obvious.

Bibi is barely hanging on politically, requiring his party to form a coalition and low and behold, here comes a military crisis.


You don't think this is all about politics and only poitics?

No I don't think the mothers of the dead children would consider themselves political fallout. I think they would rightly consider their children were murdered.

I mean if Biden was feeling a bit edgy and nuked Florida I don't think you would be saying it was a political decision...I think you'd be saying he was a nutjob that committed warcrimes.

ETA: No I don't think it's about politics.. I think it's about religious nutjobbery.

What we have is a crazy nutjob theocratic .. nuclear?... state backed by the worlds only superpower to do what it wants when it wants without any regard for international law. Two stupidly religious countries imposing a hegemony on the world.

 

[Meadmaker]

Not at all. if as you suggest the very survival of Israel is predicated on US support then the US could if it wanted to say 'we will defend you against any existential threat but don't commit war crimes against your neighbours/own people. If you continue to do so we won't defend you, but if you behave properly we will'

Do what we want or we will let the Arabs/Muslims drive you into the sea.

Potato, Potahto.





However, for whatever it's worth, I do wish the US government should do something about the worst of the offenses. I think "Jewish settlements" are a really bad idea. As best I can tell what that really means is "state subsidized segregated housing", and I think that some smart guys in Washington D.C. could find a way to meaningfully express disapproval, i.e. not just "tut tut could you please not do that" with something short of letting them be wiped out. There ought to be a middle ground in there somewhere.


But it's difficult. I saw a headline today that said 400 rockets hit Israel today. 400 rockets? Can you imagine that sort of weapons stockpile even existing inside the US, or the UK, or, as Belz compared, Quebec? It's an awful mess of a situation.

When the Soviet Union collapsed, I was kind of hoping that there could be some change in the Middle East, because there wouldn't be an external force stoking the flames on the other side, but it turns out that there were plenty of flame stokers within the Islamic world and within the Palestinians themselves. There are plenty of people who don't want peace, and it takes a lot more people to keep the peace than it does to start a war. There a plenty of Arabs, Palestinians included, who won't stop until the Jewish state is destroyed, and they know that time is on their side. They only have to win once.

 

[Meadmaker]

Again someone God on the phone and clarify with him which group of illiterate goat herders he promised this strip of desert scrub land to a few thousand years ago.

That's the only way we're gonna solve this.

"Ancestral homeland" is such a ******* stupid and toxic concept.

I think that's the heart of the problem. The modern state of Israel shouldn't exist, but in 1948, someone thought it was a good idea for the surviving Jews to live there instead of here (where "here" was a lot of places, depending on who happened to be talking at the time.) And, well, there it was right in the Bible, so....why not?

The British gave up a bunch of empire back in those days, and in three places (India, Ireland, and Palestine) they decided that the best thing to do would be to cut the area into two based on majority ethnic groups in the area.

I don't think it worked out so well in any of those places. Maybe there were some other spots where it worked out better. In the three that I'm aware of, they left a legacy of conflict and war.


Unfortunately, though, that is what happened. Israel came into existence. There was an immediate war, just like everyone knew there would be, and it hasn't stopped since. On the Jewish side, there will always be people who want that land, including all of Eretz Israel, to be a purely Jewish haven. On the Arab side, there are plenty of people who want them out and who consider Jerusalem to be a sacred spot, where Mohammed ascended to Heaven. It's hard to compromise with people who are sure that God is on their side.

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

Potato, Potahto.

That's exactly the same threat every other nation state exists under. are you suggesting Israel should be exempt from it?

However, for whatever it's worth, I do wish the US government should do something about the worst of the offenses. I think "Jewish settlements" are a really bad idea. As best I can tell what that really means is "state subsidized segregated housing", and I think that some smart guys in Washington D.C. could find a way to meaningfully express disapproval, i.e. not just "tut tut could you please not do that" with something short of letting them be wiped out. There ought to be a middle ground in there somewhere.

At best? How about at worst it means murdering children because they aren't Jewish?

But it's difficult. I saw a headline today that said 400 rockets hit Israel today. 400 rockets? Can you imagine that sort of weapons stockpile even existing inside the US, or the UK, or, as Belz compared, Quebec? It's an awful mess of a situation.

Existing? I'm pretty sure all of those countries have more than 400 rockets. I I mean the US has apparently 3800 NUCLEAR warheads alone.

When the Soviet Union collapsed, I was kind of hoping that there could be some change in the Middle East, because there wouldn't be an external force stoking the flames on the other side, but it turns out that there were plenty of flame stokers within the Islamic world and within the Palestinians themselves. There are plenty of people who don't want peace, and it takes a lot more people to keep the peace than it does to start a war. There a plenty of Arabs, Palestinians included, who won't stop until the Jewish state is destroyed, and they know that time is on their side. They only have to win once.

There is and was an external force stoking the flames from the US. Did you forget about that???

The people with all the power and weapons don't want peace and yet you blame everyone else???

 

[Meadmaker]

What falsehood, I presented it originally as an anecdote, and you took issue with it.

Up next we will find out that there is no racism in america and hearing jokes about lynching the blacks who moved nextdoor mean nothing.

 

[Belz...]

That's quite a distasteful way to reference murdering innocent people.

Which has no bearing on whether the answer to the question is "yes" or "no". Doing things like that to distract from someone's other political problems isn't exactly rare.

 

[Meadmaker]

That's exactly the same threat every other nation state exists under. are you suggesting Israel should be exempt from it?

I think that most nation states are fairly confident these days that the neighboring nation states are not going to mount an invasion that would cause their nation state to be erased from the map.

I think Israel is fairly confident that there are, in fact, nation states, and factions within nation states, that would very much like to mount an invasion that would cause the nation state of Israel to be erased from the map.

I think that makes a lot of difference.

The people with all the power and weapons don't want peace and yet you blame everyone else???

All the weapons? It seems to me that somebody must have some weapons somewhere, or 700 rockets (updated headline since last post) would not have landed in Israel today.

I think there might be enough blame that lots of countries can afford to share some of it.

 

[kmortis]

Stop personalizing the topic.

Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: kmortis

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

No I don't think the mothers of the dead children would consider themselves political fallout. I think they would rightly consider their children were murdered.

I mean if Biden was feeling a bit edgy and nuked Florida I don't think you would be saying it was a political decision...I think you'd be saying he was a nutjob that committed warcrimes.

ETA: No I don't think it's about politics.. I think it's about religious nutjobbery.

What we have is a crazy nutjob theocratic .. nuclear?... state backed by the worlds only superpower to do what it wants when it wants without any regard for international law. Two stupidly religious countries imposing a hegemony on the world.

So dead children can't be the result of someone's political agenda? I shouldn't point out Bibi's a selfish piece of **** (he's not the only piece of **** player here) without due deference to the tragedy?

I'm not following you here.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Trevor Noah talks about the power difference based on casualties, saying to set aside who's to blame and who started this particular episode of fighting and instead saying if one is that much more deadly than the other, shouldn't the person with most of the power take it a little easier.