How is Israel Going to Retaliate Against Hamas?

[TurkeysGhost]

I don't see what's so ambiguous about the statement made by the Israeli Defense Minister.

he's calling for a "complete siege" and then compares the Palestinians to animals. How is that not a call for eradication?

There's a strange tendency among non-Israeli Zionists to pretend that these ghouls aren't routinely calling for explicit ethnic cleansing, either within Israel proper or in Gaza, that it hasn't been escalating recently, and has not reached "final solution" levels in response to these commando raids.

The Israeli state is speaking as plainly as possible about their intentions, and yet the apologists pretend they mean something entirely different.

 

[The Great Zaganza]

Hmm, it's possible that I have at some point taken the abbreviation of TG to mean TGZ, not TurkeysGhost, as I now think it was supposed to mean.

If this has made some things unclear I apologize for that.

 

[Ziggurat]

that was a QUESTION

Oh please. It was a question meant to imply a position, to smear me. And it was based on nothing but straw.

It is strange how hard it is for you to see this from anyone's but Israel's point of view.

Yet more straw. TG is simply wrong about his claims of genocide and ethnic cleansing, and the fact that I recognize him as being wrong doesn't mean I'm unable to see things from other perspectives. It means I can recognize claims which are simply wrong. And I note that you aren't even trying to defend those claims. Instead, you've moved the goalpost:

But simply according to international law, cutting a population off from the essentials for survival, or event the attempt to do so, is illegal and a violation of Human Rights.

Is it genocide?

Objectively, Israel is doing something horrible by trying to blockade Gaza, and that is true regardless of what HAMAS has done or will do.

Israel cannot actually cut off Gaza from the essentials for survival. Again, they don't control the border with Egypt.

 

[lobosrul5]

Hmm, it's possible that I have at some point taken the abbreviation of TG to mean TGZ, not TurkeysGhost, as I now think it was supposed to mean.

If this has made some things unclear I apologize for that.

I believe I used the abrev TG earlier, and I meant TurkeysGhost.

 

[crescent]

A quick perusal of Twitter:

There will not always be roof knocks this time:

Regarding IDF attack policy in Gaza…the “roof knocking” policy, whereby IDF has previously used text messages, phone calls, or an initial strike on the roof to warn residents of a building it is about to be struck, is not the system currently applying.’

Hamas now claims that they will kill one hostage for each unannounced attack:

Hamas: “We will talk to the enemy with the language he knows - violence. Any targeting of our civilians without warning, we will respond to by killing a hostage of the enemy's civilians.”

Hamas will post video of each execution/murder. They seem to have about 130 hostages, some are captured military, most are civilians. Some are foreign citizens although it isn't clear to me if they are dual citizens or fully foreign.

Israeli death toll now being reported at 900.

 

[Ziggurat]

Note that I never called the blockade a genocide, attempted or not

Then how is it relevant to TurkeysGhost's claim?

I wanted Zig to clarify how many lives the blockade must cost before one could call it an attempted genocide

Then you did a very bad job at conveying that. I'm not sure there's a hard dividing line, but I will say that if the number is less than 1% of the population, it's really not an attempted genocide. And I don't think it will get anywhere close to 1%.

And no, I don't think that is Israel's aim here

And yet, you tried to call out me for calling out TurkeysGhost, even though you apparently disagree with TurkeysGhost and not me.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

A quick perusal of Twitter:

There will not always be roof knocks this time:


Hamas now claims that they will kill one hostage for each unannounced attack:


Hamas will post video of each execution/murder.

Israeli death toll now being reported at 900.

No idea if this particular claim is true or not, but Jackson Hinkle is a gutter tier source for news. I wouldn't take anything he reports at face value unless you can source it to a primary source, which is notably missing in his all text post.

 

[Trebuchet]

It depends on how deeply Iran was invovled with this attack. Wall Street Journal just publiches an artical saying this was Iran's baby from the beginning.
And Iran has been a jaor supporter of HAMAS.

Murdoch shills trying to make Biden look bad. Which is not to say Iran isn't involved, just that this is not the source I'd trust.

 

[lobosrul5]

Hamas now claims that they will kill one hostage for each unannounced attack:


Hamas will post video of each execution/murder. They seem to have about 130 hostages, some are captured military, most are civilians. Some are foreign citizens although it isn't clear to me if they are dual citizens or fully foreign.

Israeli death toll now being reported at 900.

If true, then they're gonna cause the IDF to go an absolute rampage in Gaza and this is gonna get really ******* ugly. When soldiers see their friends and family being murdered on video they tend to not give much care about the Geneva convention... rightly or wrongly.

 

[crescent]

No idea if this particular claim is true or not, but Jackson Hinkle is a gutter tier source for news. I wouldn't take anything he reports at face value unless you can source it to a primary source, which is notably missing in his all text post.

He's not the only one reporting that, I just picked randomly one tweet of many reporting the same thing. Al-Jazeera is also reporting it (scroll to 16:59 GMT). It is all over the news.

Here's is the audio of the announcement from Hamas:



ETA: And really, this was probably part of what Hamas intended to do with the raid. Capturing hostages seems to have been the primary purpose of the raid. They have hostages, so they are going to use them. That's the whole point of getting them in the first place. I am guessing that things so far are following pretty closely with what Hamas expected to happen.

 

[lobosrul5]

He's not the only one reporting that, I just picked randomly one tweet of many reporting the same thing. Al-Jazeera is also reporting it (scroll to 16:59 GMT). It is all over the news.

EAT: And really, this was probably part of what Hamas intended to do with the raid. Capturing hostages seems to have been the primary purpose of the raid. They have hostages, so they are going to use them. That's the whole point of getting them in the first place. I am guessing that things so far are following pretty closely with what Hamas expected to happen.

I do wonder at their endgame. Are these "we actually wanna die" style jihadists? Because they're all gonna die.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

I do wonder at their endgame. Are these "we actually wanna die" style jihadists? Because they're all gonna die.

Israel has ensured that life in the Gaza ghetto is brutal and often short, has been for generations. No reason to believe that these fighters don't have the stomach for it.

Curious that summarily executing a hostage by pistol shot would be considered barbaric, meanwhile no warning bombings of apartment towers (which almost certainly results in many more innocents being killed) is considered acceptable. If anything, killing one hostage per building is showing quite a bit of restraint, presumably because Hamas doesn't want to use up all their hostages so quickly.

I guess it's only terrorism if you're a non-state actor intentionally killing civilians.

 

[crescent]

Israel has ensured that life in the Gaza ghetto is brutal and often short, has been for generations. No reason to believe that these fighters don't have the stomach for it.

Curious that summarily executing a hostage by pistol shot would be considered barbaric, meanwhile no warning bombings of apartment towers (which almost certainly results in many more innocents being killed) is considered acceptable. If anything, killing one hostage per building is showing quite a bit of restraint, presumably because Hamas doesn't want to use up all their hostages so quickly.

I guess it's only terrorism if you're a non-state actor intentionally killing civilians.

Israel published maps of Gaza with some areas marked, and ordered all non-combatants to leave those areas. If they are not doing the no-warning hits in those areas but are doing them elsewhere, then arguably they are not doing it without warning. They are instead doing it with an area-specific warning rather an a building specific warning.

 

[Ziggurat]

Israel has ensured that life in the Gaza ghetto is brutal and often short, has been for generations.

Life expectancy in Gaza in 2022 was 75.4 for women and 73.2 for men. That's not far behind the US at 79.1 and 73.2 respectively. As for brutality, Gaza is controlled by Hamas. That's why life there is brutal.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

Israel published maps of Gaza with some areas marked, and ordered all non-combatants to leave those areas. If they are doing the no-warning hits in those areas but not elsewhere, then arguably they are not doing it without warning. They are instead doing it with an area-specific warning rather an a building specific warning.

I guess no civilians are being killed if these bombings are being adequately warned, right?

One wonders how this population is going to sustain themselves if vast portions of the ghetto is bombed into ruins.

 

[lobosrul5]

Israel has ensured that life in the Gaza ghetto is brutal and often short, has been for generations. No reason to believe that these fighters don't have the stomach for it.

Curious that summarily executing a hostage by pistol shot would be considered barbaric, meanwhile no warning bombings of apartment towers (which almost certainly results in many more innocents being killed) is considered acceptable. If anything, killing one hostage per building is showing quite a bit of restraint, presumably because Hamas doesn't want to use up all their hostages so quickly.

I guess it's only terrorism if you're a non-state actor intentionally killing civilians.

Lunacy. Absolute lunacy. Arab states and the west working on a peaceful solution, billions in aide spent each year on Gaza, Israel goes out of their way to give civilians a chance to clear out to the extend they allow Hamas to continue to operate, then Hamas launches this attack indiscriminately murders civilians, take hostages and say "NO YOU CANNOT RETALIATE IF YOU HIT ONE CIVILIAN, WE'LL MURDER PEOPLE ON VIDEO". **** that.

And then you compare hitting Hamas where they use human shields as the same as kidnapping and murder?! Most of us "moderates" are not going to fall for this. I've been somewhat critical of Israel in the past but this time... yeah I'm on their side.

I just hope somehow someway, a massive SOCOM hostage rescue mission can be accomplished. But, I doubt it.

 

[lobosrul5]

Israel published maps of Gaza with some areas marked, and ordered all non-combatants to leave those areas. If they are doing the no-warning hits in those areas but not elsewhere, then arguably they are not doing it without warning. They are instead doing it with an area-specific warning rather an a building specific warning.

If they really want to destroy Hamas they're going to have to go in tunnel by tunnel. I don't see any other way. And marking where they are and aren't going to hit will just allow them to re-locate.

 

[catsmate]

Not as delused as those who are tring to excuse HAMAS.

Who is?

 

[crescent]

I guess no civilians are being killed if these bombings are being adequately warned, right

Please don't assume to know my thoughts.

I have been very clear that Israel will kill civilians - mostly as incidental take. But I have (again) been very clear that I don't think Israel makes a huge effort to avoid killing Palestinian civilians. They make an effort, but are pretty content to accept that the effort need not be all that much and they don't lose sleep if it fails. They don't deliberately target civilians, but neither do they go to extreme effort to avoid them - and they will indeed kill a whole hell of a lot of non-combatant Palestinians over the next few days and weeks and months.

Hamas, for its part, seems to deliberately encourage Israeli killing of Palestinian civilians by using its own population as shielding.

 

[Steve]

I guess no civilians are being killed if these bombings are being adequately warned, right?

One wonders how this population is going to sustain themselves if vast portions of the ghetto is bombed into ruins.

Stupid statement and rolleyes. Civilians living in the war zone created by Hamas will be killed. Civilians living in Israel will also be killed. This is an unfortunate effect and result of war. Civilian deaths will continue as long as Hamas exists.

Perhaps Hamas should have considered how the population they ostensibly represent and govern will sustain themselves before they commenced this action.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

Lunacy. Absolute lunacy. Arab states and the west working on a peaceful solution, billions in aide spent each year on Gaza, Israel goes out of their way to give civilians a chance to clear out to the extend they allow Hamas to continue to operate, then Hamas launches this attack indiscriminately murders civilians, take hostages and say "NO YOU CANNOT RETALIATE IF YOU HIT ONE CIVILIAN, WE'LL MURDER PEOPLE ON VIDEO". **** that.

And then you compare hitting Hamas where they use human shields as the same as kidnapping and murder?! Most of us "moderates" are not going to fall for this. I've been somewhat critical of Israel in the past but this time... yeah I'm on their side.

I just hope somehow someway, a massive SOCOM hostage rescue mission can be accomplished. But, I doubt it.

Meanwhile, in reality:

As of late Sunday, the retaliatory Israeli airstrikes had destroyed 159 housing units across Gaza and severely damaged 1,210 others, the U.N. said. It said the number of displaced Gazans had jumped by tens of thousands, to more than 123,000. The U.N. agency for Palestinian refugees, UNRWA, said a school sheltering more than 225 people took a direct hit. It did not say where the fire came from.

Several Israeli media outlets, citing rescue service officials, said at least 700 people have been killed in Israel, including 44 soldiers. The Gaza Health Ministry said 413 people, including 78 children and 41 women, were killed in the territory. Some 2,000 people have been wounded on each side. An Israeli official said security forces have killed 400 militants and captured dozens more.

https://abc7chicago.com/hamas-attacks-israel-attack-declares-war-gaza-news/13877420/

 

[Steve]

Please don't assume to know my thoughts.

I have been very clear that Israel will kill civilians - mostly as incidental take. But I have (again) been very clear that I don't think Israel makes a huge effort to avoid killing Palestinian civilians. They make an effort, but are pretty content to accept that the effort need not be all that much and they don't lose sleep if it fails. They don't deliberately target civilians, but neither do they go to extreme effort to avoid them - and they will indeed kill a whole hell of a lot of non-combatant Palestinians over the next few days and weeks and months.

Hamas, for its part, seems to deliberately encourage Israeli killing of Palestinian civilians by using its own population as shielding.

But....but....but... TurkeysGhost is only thinking of the children.

 

[Steve]

Meanwhile, in reality:



https://abc7chicago.com/hamas-attacks-israel-attack-declares-war-gaza-news/13877420/

Yup. Its a war.

 

[BrettM]

Israel published maps of Gaza with some areas marked, and ordered all non-combatants to leave those areas. If they are doing the no-warning hits in those areas but not elsewhere, then arguably they are not doing it without warning. They are instead doing it with an area-specific warning rather an a building specific warning.

Where do these non-combatants go? Gaza is already overcrowded.

Hamas could respond by moving some hostages into these marked areas.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

But....but....but... TurkeysGhost is only thinking of the children.

I'm merely pointing out that all this pearl clutching about Hamas killing civilians is transparently cynical.

It takes two to tango, and Israel is perfectly content to consider Palestinian civilians as legitimate targets. There's no comparison, Israel has far more capacity for destruction, has all the leverage necessary to create a real chance at peace, and continues to prefer to kill civilians.

All these complaints about Israeli civilians being targeted are crocodile tears from one of the most vicious targeters of civilian populations on the planet.

 

[lobosrul5]

no, it doesn't.

IDF, Mossad and co. can be smart and go after individuals, and be transparent about it.

But I fully agree that Israel is not going to do that, instead going for scorched earth - because everyone always buys the best locks for the barn after the horse has bolted.

Circling back to this... how?! You think Mossad can start magically targeting Hamas ringleaders with no civilian casualties? Like they are so elite they can run around headshoting Hamas with silenced pistols then disappearing into the night. Thats Tom Clancy level fantasy. Hamas leadership is always careful to keep civilians around them, or they're hidden away in a tunnel somewhere. Its not going to be possible to go after them with no collateral damage.

 

[Steve]

I'm merely pointing out that all this pearl clutching about Hamas killing civilians is transparently cynical.

It takes two to tango, and Israel is perfectly content to consider Palestinian civilians as legitimate targets. There's no comparison, Israel has far more capacity for destruction, has all the leverage necessary to create a real chance at peace, and continues to prefer to kill civilians.
All these complaints about Israeli civilians being targeted are crocodile tears from one of the most vicious targeters of civilian populations on the planet.

I agree with everything but the hilite. Hamas will continue to kill Israelis as long as Hamas exists. It is their sole purpose, and they a have zero interest in peace.

 

[Ziggurat]

I'm merely pointing out that all this pearl clutching about Hamas killing civilians is transparently cynical.

It takes two to tango

It only takes on to launch terrorist attacks.

and Israel is perfectly content to consider Palestinian civilians as legitimate targets. There's no comparison, Israel has far more capacity for destruction, has all the leverage necessary to create a real chance at peace, and continues to prefer to kill civilians.

This is an outright lie. Israel tries to keep civilian casualties low. They still inflict them because Hamas makes it impossible to fight without collateral damage, but it's not the point. The reverse is not true: Hamas is more than willing to target purely civilian targets with zero military value. Killing civilians IS the point.

Your attempt to equate them is despicable.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

It only takes on to launch terrorist attacks.



This is an outright lie. Israel tries to keep civilian casualties low. They still inflict them because Hamas makes it impossible to fight without collateral damage, but it's not the point. The reverse is not true: Hamas is more than willing to target purely civilian targets with zero military value. Killing civilians IS the point.

Your attempt to equate them is despicable.

I would never equate them. Israel is responsible for far more civilian deaths, it's not even close.

 

[Arcade22]

I'm merely pointing out that all this pearl clutching about Hamas killing civilians is transparently cynical.

Can you give an example where Israel sent soldiers to massacre 300+ civilians at a public event, taking survivors hostage and threaten to execute them infront of cameras and broadcast it publicly?

This is a great example of the kind of insane knee-jerk leftist "anti-war" mentality that leads people to treat Israelis as equal to mass-murdering terrorists. You don't have to be some kind of Israeli fanboy to acknowledge that Hamas are on a completely different level than Israel is.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

I agree with everything but the hilite. Hamas will continue to kill Israelis as long as Hamas exists. It is their sole purpose, and they a have zero interest in peace.

One might wonder how popular Hamas would be among Palestinians if any reasonable alternative existed.

What exactly should the Palestinians do instead? It's not like they haven't tried a variety of tactics that have all ended in brutal oppression at the hands of the Israeli state.

 

[Arcade22]

I would never equate them. Israel is responsible for far more civilian deaths, it's not even close.

Apparently so much that when Hamas starts slaughtering civilians in their homes and gunning down hundreds of people at a music concert your first impulse is to defend and excuse them.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

Can you give an example where Israel sent soldiers to massacre 300+ civilians at a public event, taking survivors hostage and threaten to execute them infront of cameras and broadcast it publicly?

This is a great example of the kind of insane knee-jerk leftist "anti-war" mentality that leads people to treat Israelis as equal to mass-murdering terrorists. You don't have to be some kind of Israeli fanboy to acknowledge that Hamas are on a completely different level than Israel is.

The "March of Return" protests was an overwhelmingly peaceful demonstration that resulted in 200+ killed and another 9,000+ wounded.

Israel's use of deadly force was condemned on 13 June 2018 in a United Nations General Assembly resolution.[43] Condemnations also came from human rights organizations, including Human Rights Watch,[44] B'Tselem,[45] and Amnesty International,[46] and by United Nations officials.[47][48] Kuwait proposed two United Nations Security Council statements, both blocked by the United States, which called for investigations into Israel's killing of Palestinian protesters.[49] The Israeli government praised Israeli troops for protecting the border fence.[47] Media coverage of the demonstrations, and what has been termed the "PR battle", has been the object of analysis and controversy.[50][51][52][53] In late February 2019, a United Nations Human Rights Council's independent commission found that of the 489 cases of Palestinian deaths or injuries analyzed, only two were possibly justified as responses to danger by Israeli security forces. The commission deemed the rest of the cases illegal, and concluded with a recommendation calling on Israel to examine whether war crimes or crimes against humanity had been committed, and if so, to bring those responsible to trial.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018%E2%80%932019_Gaza_border_protests#:~:text=An%20independent%20United%20Nations%20commission,tear%20gas%20and%20live%20ammunition.

The entire Gaza strip is one giant hostage situation. Every time Israel bombs a mosque or an apartment tower or a refugee camp they are executing hostages. Noises about "human shields" or targeting military units are just cynical pretexts.

 

[Ziggurat]

I would never equate them. Israel is responsible for far more civilian deaths, it's not even close.

The irony is that Hamas hates you and everything you value, whereas Israel doesn't. You're the perfect embodiment of oikophobia. And you are the reason civilizations collapse, because they stop believing in their own value.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

The irony is that Hamas hates you and everything you value, whereas Israel doesn't. You're the perfect embodiment of oikophobia. And you are the reason civilizations collapse, because they stop believing in their own value.

Tell ya what, I'll write my congressman to tell them to stop funding Hamas and using their UN power to give them carte blanche to commit terrorism, you've changed my mind

 

[Arcade22]

The "March of Return" protests was an overwhelmingly peaceful demonstration that resulted in 200+ killed and another 9,000+ wounded.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018%E2%80%932019_Gaza_border_protests#:~:text=An%20independent%20United%20Nations%20commission,tear%20gas%20and%20live%20ammunition.

That "protest" took place for over 1 year and 8 months and a significant proportion of the "protesters" were Hamas militants or from other militant groups.

That's are not even close to being comparable with 300+ civilians being killed at a public concert within minutes. But hey keep on excusing mass-murdering terrorists.

 

[Arcade22]

What exactly should the Palestinians do instead? It's not like they haven't tried a variety of tactics that have all ended in brutal oppression at the hands of the Israeli state.

It's first and foremost Israel's fault that The Palestinians in Gaza live under a brutal terrorist groups regime which shows them even less regard than their supposed enemies? It's not Israel that's forcing Gaza people to live under Hama's rule.

 

[Steve]

One might wonder how popular Hamas would be among Palestinians if any reasonable alternative existed.

One might indeed. The Palestinian people are responsible for their own government. Israel is not.

What exactly should the Palestinians do instead? It's not like they haven't tried a variety of tactics that have all ended in brutal oppression at the hands of the Israeli state.

And how is their current tactic working? And what exactly should the Israelis do instead when Hamas employs their current brutal tactic?

Please describe for us a peaceful Hamas tactic that resulted in brutal oppression.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

That "protest" took place for over 1 year and 8 months and a significant proportion of the "protesters" were Hamas militants or from other militant groups.

That's are not even close to being comparable with 300+ civilians being killed at a public musical within minutes. But hey keep on excusing mass-murdering terrorists.

What a fun game we play where the victims of oppression must be perfect victims in order to be worthy of consideration and sympathy.

Do the monstrous excesses of Hamas, such as the targeting of civilians during the recent breakout raids, negate the broader justification of Palestinian liberation? Do these excesses excuse the monstrous behavior of the Zionist oppressors?

I'm willing to see nuance in this conflict, because as with all conflicts there are no pure sides, but the Zionists do not want to see the issue as nuanced.

 

[Steve]

Tell ya what, I'll write my congressman to tell them to stop funding Hamas and using their UN power to give them carte blanche to commit terrorism, you've changed my mind

Love them non sequiturs.