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How is Israel Going to Retaliate Against Hamas?

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And you are going to see a number of Attacks on Jews in the USA. Already seeing "BIden is controlled by the Zionests" rants on line.
And I would not be surprised if some in the MAGA movement turn on Israel.MAGA is not nonolithic, except for it;s worship of Trump, and I suspect there is a lot of anti Semitism in the movementm which sort of struggles with the Evaneglical wing with it' s blind support of Isreal. and it is interesting that Donnie, aaide from a few "If I were President it woul dnever have happened" statements has not been making a big think about the HAMAS attacks over the past few days.
 
dudalb said:
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I don;t think you have to worry mch about US Support, though. The "Anti Zioinist" are a pretty small percentage, who manage to make a lot of noise way out of proportion to their numbers. Thye don't have much power outside of college camapuses and trendy "Progressive " discussion groups.TYje Usual suspect, in other words.
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I am worried about US support. Things can change in a hurry, once the scapegoating ball gets really rolling.
 
Trebuchet said:
Murdoch shills trying to make Biden look bad. Which is not to say Iran isn't involved, just that this is not the source I'd trust.
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I have little doubt Iran is involved, but not just them.
Also Iran funds Hezbollah to a vastly greater extent than Hamas, 8-10x.
 
TurkeysGhost said:
Israel is settler colonialism. Algeria and Vietnam are probably bad examples as the French populations remained quite small, but settler colonialism is by no means unique to Israel. The American eradication of the native Americans and the British subjugation and settling of Ireland seem good parallels.
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No they are not, you demonstrate (again) your ignorance.
 
catsmate said:
I have little doubt Iran is involved, but not just them.
Also Iran funds Hezbollah to a vastly greater extent than Hamas, 8-10x.
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One thing the HAMAS attacks have done: The world has sort of looked the other way at Iran's funding of terrorist groups; now it is going to be much, much, harder to do that.I guess the think swas Iran would exercise some control to keep it's clients from doing anything too extreme. that is pretty much a dead propostiion. Iran mighh have miscalculated here.
 
It is clear that Kfir Aza, even if we discount some of the more lurid stories without proof. was one of the worst atorcities against Jews since the Holocaust.
Let us be clear; Anybody making excusies for HAMAS..particulary those of the 'I condenm HAMAS but" variety,, is taking the side of evil.
What might be as bad as the "Whatabouters". which we have plenty of on this site.
On of the worst things about buying heavily into any political or religous Dogma is it puts your brain on Autopilot; on any issue you just spout out dogma without stopping to think.
George Orwell in "1984" called this "Duckspeak", good name for it. It meant an sbility to automaticaly, without thinking , to spout out political slogans without any real thought.
, t
 
dudalb said:
It is clear that Kfir Aza, even if we discount some of the more lurid stories without proof. was one of the worst atorcities against Jews since the Holocaust.
Let us be clear; Anybody making excusies for HAMAS..particulary those of the 'I condenm HAMAS but" variety,, is taking the side of evil.
What might be as bad as the "Whatabouters". which we have plenty of on this site.
On of the worst things about buying heavily into any political or religous Dogma is it puts your brain on Autopilot; on any issue you just spout out dogma without stopping to think.
George Orwell in "1984" called this "Duckspeak", good name for it. It meant an sbility to automaticaly, without thinking , to spout out political slogans without any real thought.
, t
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Well it is possible, even likely, that Israel response will be just as bad. Sure, Hamas started it .. but if Israel stoops to the same level, it will be well .. the same. A terrorist state, not a western democracy.
No amount of damage gives you free card to commit war crimes, and they might have already happened. You can say it's unfair Israel can't respond in the same manner and ten times more .. after all we did that just as recently as WW2 .. but as long as Israel wants to call itself western democracy, it just can't.

Saying that isn't supporting Hamas in the slightest.
 
HAMAS just called Biden's speech Inflammatory.
This from a group tha thas posted what amounts to real life violence Porn to booste their cause.
It is getting surreal.
 
Netanyahu has every incentive to make the military response last for as long as possible - because afterwards he will have to answer as to the intelligence and security failures that made this attack possible in the first place.
 
A people has the right to revolt against its oppressor, we have the example of the patriots of US. I'm a Christian, Israel is the cradle of my religion, it doesn't give me the right to go to Israel, kick a family out of their home and live there. The real Hebrews are the Palestinians, and the injustice done to them must be resolved to their satisfaction.
 
lobosrul5 said:
Lunacy. Absolute lunacy. Arab states and the west working on a peaceful solution, billions in aide spent each year on Gaza, Israel goes out of their way to give civilians a chance to clear out to the extend they allow Hamas to continue to operate, then Hamas launches this attack indiscriminately murders civilians, take hostages and say "NO YOU CANNOT RETALIATE IF YOU HIT ONE CIVILIAN, WE'LL MURDER PEOPLE ON VIDEO". **** that.

And then you compare hitting Hamas where they use human shields as the same as kidnapping and murder?! Most of us "moderates" are not going to fall for this. I've been somewhat critical of Israel in the past but this time... yeah I'm on their side.

I just hope somehow someway, a massive SOCOM hostage rescue mission can be accomplished. But, I doubt it.
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The IDF saying they're going out of their way to not kill civillians is not the same as the IDF actually going out of their way to not kill civillians. Given their long standing modus operandi, it is far more likely that the IDF will, on fact, go out of their way to disproporionately target civillians in these attacks. It's what they've always done. As I said before they're an organisation that would make even the 1. paras blanch in horror.
 
Dr.Sid said:
So .. what SHOULD Israel do ?
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Stop acting according to the British "counterterrorism" playbook which worked so well (/s) in the Six Counties and Kenya. And start acting in good faith.

The simple fact of the matter is that Hamas would be a fringe movement with no friends if Israel kept to international law and respected its 1968 border with Palestine.
 
Gaetan said:
A people has the right to revolt against its oppressor, we have the example of the patriots of US. I'm a Christian, Israel is the cradle of my religion, it doesn't give me the right to go to Israel, kick a family out of their home and live there. The real Hebrews are the Palestinians, and the injustice done to them must be resolved to their satisfaction.
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At least a horrific event like this unspeakably barbaric attack by Hamas gives us an opportunity to learn whom among us the monsters are.
 
jt512 said:
At least a horrific event like this unspeakably barbaric attack by Hamas gives us an opportunity to learn whom among us the monsters are.
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We are all monsters, covered by a thin veneer of civility.

You can see this in shopper frenzy on Christmas eve, road rage, sporting violence, and bullying on playgrounds.
 
Planigale said:
New? The US are already an enemy of Hamas. The US supplies weapons and money to help oppress and kill Palestinians.

When Hamas were elected as the government of Gaza, the US and Israel refused to deal with the elected government. You can not be a true supporter of democracy if you support it until you disagree with the outcome. Hamas are both de facto and the government in Gaza and the elected government.

As the Good Friday agreement showed if you want peace it means being prepared to deal with enemies and terrorists. Excluding Hamas is not a realistic way to make peace.
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They weren't elected as the government of just Gaza. In the last democratic election they won an absolute majority of seats in the Palestinian Authority. Israel's response, backed by the US, was to kidnap as many Palestinian MPs as possibe and subsequently refuse the PA to hold further elections.
 
An interesting confluence of factors.

You may recall the young woman who was seen in Hamas videos, assumed dead, being paraded through the streets in the back of truck.

Her mother is claiming she's not dead, and is in fact in a Gaza hospital being treated for a serious head injury.

Supernova festival hostage Shani Louk is alive but injured, says family
23-year-old is among those kidnapped in Israel by Hamas
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https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/supernova-rave-hostages-family-shani-is-alive-but-injured-vshvl2dz9

However, reports are that all of Gaza is about to be without power, including hospitals, as a result of the Israeli blockade and shelling of civilian infrastructure.

Officials in Gaza say the enclave facing an imminent humanitarian catastrophe with the power plant shutting down completely within hours due to the depletion of fuel.
Israeli Defence Minister Yoav Gallant has pledged to launch a ground offensive in Gaza following Hamas’s surprise attack.
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https://www.aljazeera.com/news/liveblog/2023/10/10/israel-hamas-war-live-us-redoubles-israel-support-as-bombs-rain-on-gaza

This woman, who seems to have miraculously survived the festival massacre perpetrated by Hamas, may end up becoming a casualty of the IDF's terror bombing campaign in Gaza.
 
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TurkeysGhost said:
An interesting confluence of factors.

You may recall the young woman who was seen in Hamas videos, assumed dead, being paraded through the streets in the back of truck.

Her mother is claiming she's not dead, and is in fact in a Gaza hospital being treated for a serious head injury.



https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/supernova-rave-hostages-family-shani-is-alive-but-injured-vshvl2dz9

However, reports are that all of Gaza is about to be without power, including hospitals, as a result of the Israeli blockade and shelling of civilian infrastructure.



https://www.aljazeera.com/news/liveblog/2023/10/10/israel-hamas-war-live-us-redoubles-israel-support-as-bombs-rain-on-gaza

This woman, who seems to have miraculously survived the festival massacre perpetrated by Hamas, may end up becoming a casualty of the IDF's terror bombing campaign in Gaza.
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Just another 200 or so more to turn up fine then
 
Fast Eddie B said:
I recall exactly where I was and how I felt when Israel withdrew from the Gaza Strip in 2005. I’m not claiming to be prescient, but it was a sinking feeling of “no good can come of this”. Of course, I wasn’t privy to all the information Israel had when making that decision. But still, the eventual outcome seemed inevitable.

Right now, my position would be, “We tried to coexist, and that clearly failed. The Gaza Strip is now part of Israel for Israelis - both Jewish and Arab. If you’re looking for your own homeland, we’ll certainly help expedite your relocation and coordinate with our neighbors to find land you can settle and call your own. A better life and future can exist for Palestinians - just not here.”

Simplistic and naive to be sure. It’s just what my gut tells me is the best path to a secure future for Israel and a way forward for Palestinians.
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That's the problem right there. The "withdrawal" from Gaza was never a good faith act. Israel maintained control of all border crossings, sea lanes and airstrips in and out of Gaza. Their restrictions on Palestinians moving in and out destroyed the local economy because the only possible jobs were on the other side of the border. In addition Israel retained the absolute right for their armed forces to enter Gaza at will, annex territory and build barracks and watchtowers in Gaza whenever and wherever they lived. And in response to this fake withdrawal the Palestinian Authority was forced to cede authority of large swathes of Palestinian territory previously established under international law.
 
As I recall, the missiles started flying within a week of the handover and that's why Israel needed to keep control of the borders
 
JoeMorgue said:
The problem is both sides weren't utterly convinced that God had promised their ancestors the same 25 mile stretch of crap land to them in the English/Irish conflict.

There's a difference between fighting for land/territory in a broad, vague sense and being 100% sure that God himself declared this one spot on the planet belongs to some chosen people but told two groups they were it and God refuses to come down from the clouds and clarify which group of Bronze Age Goat Herders he was talking to thousands of years ago.
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You've never experienced the depths of anti-catholic hate that still exists within unionism then?
 
Gulliver Foyle said:
You've never experienced the depths of anti-catholic hate that still exists within unionism then?
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The "nothing can be done to resolve this" crowd likes to pretend that the Israeli-Palestinian rift is singularly bitter, when history is full of other examples being resolved that were just as hotly disputed.

Sure, there are still dead-enders in Northern Ireland on both sides, and one wonders if there will ever be a total end to that resentment, but by any measurement the Irish Nationalist and Loyalist (or Catholic/Protestant) problem has been largely solved in a place where militancy and extraordinary state oppression had been the norm.

These impasses can be resolved. It happens throughout history all the time.
 
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jt512 said:
Speak for yourself. Only you are equating Christmas shopping with the beheading of babies.

You, the monsters among us, continue to out yourselves.
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I think you misunderstood me. I am not condoning the beheading of babies. I am saying that brutal behaviour is part of human nature.

Did you know that the French practiced public beheading a few hundred years ago? If cell phones existed in those days, you can be sure that a number of beheadings would be posted on social media.
Vlad the Impaler, revered in modern Romania, had thousands of his enemies impaled on sharpened wooden sticks, where they died a lingering and agonizing death, usually in full public view.
Crucifixion was practiced by the Persians, Carthaginians and Romans to achieve a prolonged, agonizing death.

Let's explore this a little further, shall we?

1. Do you think there is a greater proportion of monsters amongst the Palestinians than other nations?

2. Which country do you think has (or had) the most barbaric monsters? Palestine? Russia? Nazi Germany? Imperial Japan? The Mongols under Genghis Khan?

3. Do you think monsters are born that way, like being born gay instead of heterosexual? Or do you think that monster behaviour is learned? In other words, innate or acquired?
 
Again ALL of this only works if we all just stick our heads in the sand (no pun) and pretend like if you pull the religious bloodfeud core out of it anyone would give two ***** who lives in the goddamn barren wasteland that is the Gaze Strip.

The fact that this battle is being fought over what amounts to little more than the vacant lot behind a closed gas station copy pasted a few hundred times that is in the middle of vast expanses OF THE EXACT SAME QUALITY AND LEVEL OF LAND THAT NOBODY WANTS is not something we're all just obliged to just not notice.

They ain't fighting over paradise.
 
JoeMorgue said:
Again ALL of this only works if we all just stick our heads in the sand (no pun) and pretend like if you pull the religious bloodfeud core out of it anyone would give two ***** he lives in the goddamn barren wasteland that is the Gaze Strip.

The fact that this battle is being fought over what is the the vacant lot behind a closed gas station copy pasted a few hundred times that is in the middle of vast expanses OF THE EXACT SAME QUALITY AND LEVEL OF LAND THAT NOBODY WANTS is not something we're all just obliged to just not notice.

They ain't fighting over paradise.
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You've mentioned this before.

Are you suggesting it's a real option for Gaza residents to settle outside the borders of their de-facto open-air prison without anyone, say the IDF, strenuously objecting?

The last time Gaza tried the "just walk out" strategy, Israel opened fire on the mostly peaceful, unarmed crowds, killing hundreds.

Please be specific, what nearby patch of land are you talking about where Palestinians could settle without violent retribution from Israel?
 
TurkeysGhost said:
You've mentioned this before.

Are you suggesting it's a real option for Gaza residents to settle outside the borders of their de-facto open-air prison without anyone, say the IDF, strenuously objecting?

The last time Gaza tried the "just walk out" strategy, Israel opened fire on the mostly peaceful, unarmed crowds, killing hundreds.

Please be specific, what nearby patch of land are you talking about where Palestinians could settle without violent retribution from Israel?
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I like how you just assumed I was saying the Palestinians should be the one to leave just so you could go on a rant focused at nobody.
 
JoeMorgue said:
I like how you just assumed I was saying the Palestinians should be the one to leave just so you could go on a rant focused at nobody.
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Your comments were extremely vague and definitely smacked of "both sides" nonsense. perhaps you should be more clear and specific about who is exercising the most agency in this broader problem, such things matter quite a bit.
 
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