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How is Israel Going to Retaliate Against Hamas? Part 3

Cosmic Yak said:
What do you mean by 'held back'? That the IDF held back from launching missiles against those buildings, or that the IDF held back the evidence?
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It was my impression that in 2014 the IDF did not attack the buildings with roofs filled with civilians l.
Cosmic Yak said:
Really? Because it looks to me like you're desperately trying to find ways to avoid accepting that Hamas uses human shields.
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It is well that I clarified it then.
 
The Great Zaganza said:
What's the general opinion here on the question of whether the IDF personnel killed in the Oct. 7th attack were legitimate military targets or not ?
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Considering only the actions of the uniformed members of Hamas attacking IDF. I think that whatever the provocation from Israel by keeping Gaza under siege, the attack of 7 October was disproportionate and therefore criminal, that is a command responsibility I think that once in combat, the actions of uniformed members of Hamas taking military action against the IDF should fall within the 'Rules of Law' that such actions would be criminal only as far as war crimes occurred (e.g. abuse of prisoners, military action that deliberately targeted civilians with no military objective or with disproportionate damage proportionate to the military benefit). That actul combat operations against IDF are no more criminal than e.g. the action of soldiers in the second Iraq war. That means that those combatants can be detained as PoW for the duration of the 'war'. That they should be tried under military law for war crimes. Non-uniformed combatants are more of a grey area, but given that the IDF has long used non-uniformed combatants I think that no distinction should be drawn based on uniform and all should be treated as PoW and tried by military courts if they are alleged to have committed crimes. It is widely recognised many Palestinians participated who were opportunistic civilians who may have participated in looting, crimes against persons, and should be tried for those crimes before civilian courts. Those who were just 'sightseers' shouldn't be punished.
 
webfusion said:
Nobody is disputing there has been wartime relocation.
That is much different than clear evidence of "ethnic cleansing' -- scholars do not agree on which events constitute ethnic cleansing. The term has gained widespread acceptance primarily due to journalism. "Ethnic cleansing" has no legal definition under international criminal law.

If you want to see actual ethnic cleansing look no further than the 2005 ejection of Jews from their lovely and tranquil homes along the Gaza coast. (See: Neve Dekalim).
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Well I guess that makes it OK then.

Let's be honest, both sides are doing it - the Israelis just happen to be more efficient at it. And since, as you, say, it has no definition in international law, let them have at it!

OTOH
What is ethnic cleansing?

Ethnic cleansing is not recognised as an independent crime under international law. Although the term has been used in Security Council and General Assembly resolutions, it has not been defined in international law.

The term “ethnic cleansing” emerged during the conflict in the former Yugoslavia and was used by a United Nations commission of experts charged with examining violations of international humanitarian law committed on the territory of the former Yugoslavia.

In its report, the commission of experts described ethnic cleansing as “rendering an area ethnically homogeneous by using force or intimidation to remove persons of given groups from the area”...

According to this commission, these practices could constitute crimes against humanity as well as well-defined war crimes. They may also fall within the scope of the Genocide Convention.
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I am not a lawyer, so I wouldn't advise anyone one way or the other. However I would advise getting a good lawyer if you want to do some ethnic cleansing, as the law may not be quite as mute as you suggest.
 
Planigale said:
Considering only the actions of the uniformed members of Hamas attacking IDF. I think that whatever the provocation from Israel by keeping Gaza under siege, the attack of 7 October was disproportionate and therefore criminal, that is a command responsibility I think that once in combat, the actions of uniformed members of Hamas taking military action against the IDF should fall within the 'Rules of Law' that such actions would be criminal only as far as war crimes occurred (e.g. abuse of prisoners, military action that deliberately targeted civilians with no military objective or with disproportionate damage proportionate to the military benefit). That actul combat operations against IDF are no more criminal than e.g. the action of soldiers in the second Iraq war. That means that those combatants can be detained as PoW for the duration of the 'war'. That they should be tried under military law for war crimes. Non-uniformed combatants are more of a grey area, but given that the IDF has long used non-uniformed combatants I think that no distinction should be drawn based on uniform and all should be treated as PoW and tried by military courts if they are alleged to have committed crimes. It is widely recognised many Palestinians participated who were opportunistic civilians who may have participated in looting, crimes against persons, and should be tried for those crimes before civilian courts. Those who were just 'sightseers' shouldn't be punished.
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Since when does Hamas wear uniforms?
 
Lionking, of course HAMAS has uniforms. They are also organized into 24 'battalions' led by commanders and officers. (many of whom are now dead).

and

As for the Gazans being encouraged (incentivized) to vacate the Strip, there are rumblings from Israeli Government ministers hinting that this course of action is something to pursue.
www.middleeastmonitor.com

Ben-Gvir: There’s a historic opportunity to reclaim Gaza

There is a historic opportunity “to reclaim the Gaza Strip and promote voluntary migration,
www.middleeastmonitor.com www.middleeastmonitor.com
 
Cosmic Yak said:
Except that you haven't.
Do you accept that Hamas uses human shields, or are you still looking for ways to avoid acknowledging this?
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I have no idea if they are still using human shields in the form of civilians on the roofs, and I especially have no idea if Gazans are flocking to the roofs in order to “protect” Hamas. I merely asked if anybody had seen the civilians on the roofs on official target pictures from the IDF. I take it that nobody has seen it, which does not mean that Hamas does not use civilians on the roofs, but could mean that the IDF is not really eager to show that they are bombing civilians on the roofs.

But there are other forms of using human shields, such as keeping military objects close to civilians, using schools, hospitals etc. some of which seems well documented, and some seems to be Israeli propaganda.

I have right from the start said that Hamas wants civilian casualties because they want to lead Israel to kill civilians, and lose support of the world - particularly the Arab world. Using human shields fits right into this strategy, and is worthy a warrant for crimes against humanity in itself. Israel has happily obliged, so this strategy seems to have worked like a charm. It remains to be seen if it helps them in the long run.

Is this enough clarification?
 
Ex- IDF chief of staff, ex Defence Minister and previous member of Likud says that IDf are in volved with ethnic cleansing.
“The path we are being dragged down is one of occupation, annexation and ethnic cleansing in the Gaza Strip,
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Israel Finance Minister Bezalel Smotrich announces target to reduce population of Gaza by half.
It is possible to create a situation where Gaza’s population will be reduced to half its current size in two years...
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Once the success of “encouraged migration” is proven in Gaza, Smotrich claimed, it can be replicated in the West Bank, where another three million Palestinians live.
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Planigale said:
Ex- IDF chief of staff, ex Defence Minister and previous member of Likud says that IDf are in volved with ethnic cleansing.

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Yeah, TGZ posted this on Sunday. Is there anything to be gained by posting it again?

Planigale said:
Israel Finance Minister Bezalel Smotrich announces target to reduce population of Gaza by half.


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Yeah, Smotrich is an arsehole. Was this ever in any doubt?
 
steenkh said:
I have no idea if they are still using human shields in the form of civilians on the roofs, and I especially have no idea if Gazans are flocking to the roofs in order to “protect” Hamas. I merely asked if anybody had seen the civilians on the roofs on official target pictures from the IDF. I take it that nobody has seen it, which does not mean that Hamas does not use civilians on the roofs, but could mean that the IDF is not really eager to show that they are bombing civilians on the roofs.
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Or the IDF is not willing to release secret military information just to please curious internet sleuths.

steenkh said:
But there are other forms of using human shields, such as keeping military objects close to civilians, using schools, hospitals etc. some of which seems well documented, and some seems to be Israeli propaganda.
I have right from the start said that Hamas wants civilian casualties because they want to lead Israel to kill civilians, and lose support of the world - particularly the Arab world. Using human shields fits right into this strategy, and is worthy a warrant for crimes against humanity in itself. Israel has happily obliged, so this strategy seems to have worked like a charm. It remains to be seen if it helps them in the long run.

Is this enough clarification?
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Now it is, yes. Don't forget, I'm dealing with Team Jihad, who have a nasty habit of ignoring inconvenient facts, lying about what has happened on the round, lying about what other posters have said, and whitewashing terrorist crimes. For these reasons, I have to double check.
 
government of arseholes - they must be on the right side of history ...

I guess Hamas will stop with using Palestinians as human shields as soon as the IDF stops using Palestinians as human shields.

we know that the IDF doesn't care about Israeli as shields, as 10/7 and multiple hostages killed by the IDF prove.
 
As it happens, Moshe 'Bogie' Ya'alon's comments are being condemned across the spectrum of Israeli society.
Starting with the President of Israel.
All the way down to Mr. Bonzel.

Regarding the killings of hostages: According to HAMAS, all the dead captives are on the shoulders of Israel's leader -- not HAMAS' own responsibility.
www.israelnationalnews.com

Hamas: 'Hostages were killed because of Netanyahu'

Hamas released another propaganda video on Telegram aimed at pressuring Israel to soften its stance in ceasefire negotiations and prisoner exchange deals.
www.israelnationalnews.com www.israelnationalnews.com
 
Trump threatens HAMAS unless US hostages are released by the time he takes office.
A. Hamas will ignore this.
B. who knows if Donnie is serious or not?
As much as I dislike HAMAS for the US to get involved militariy is a bad move.
 
I don’t see what use Hamas has for the hostages any more. They certainly don’t work as bargaining chips because the Israelis have shown that they are not holding back in any way because of the risk to the hostages, and it is also clear that even if all hostages are let free, there will be no respite for Hamas: Israel will continue to hunt them down.

Retaining the hostages is just pure malice, and I hope that Hamas’ supporters see that. But I fear that there is so much hate involved that maltreatment of hostages is simply viewed as a good thing.
 
A UN expert today condemned the death of a third physician from Gaza while in Israeli custody and renewed calls for the protection of healthcare workers in the occupied Palestinian territory.
The two Palestinian detainees, one of whom was paralyzed, both died in the past month. The IDF and Israel Prison Service refuse to disclose why they were arrested – or how they died – to their families and the public
www.haaretz.com

Two Gazans die in Israeli detention; IDF withholding reason for their arrest

***
www.haaretz.com www.haaretz.com

Israeli hostages are not the only ones dying. Both sides have taken hostages to exchange for hostages. Palestinian were held by Israel without access to civilian courts before 7 October. Israel was witholding bodies of Palestinians (including children) who died in Israeli prisons to be exchanged in future deals before 7 October.
 
Planigale said:
Why these Israeli men volunteered to fight - but now refuse to return to Gaza
www.bbc.co.uk

IDF refusers: The men who volunteered but now won't fight in Gaza

Some of those who reported for duty after October 7 explain why they are now refusing
www.bbc.co.uk
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Interesting read. However, the number of refuseniks is very small, and support for the war still remains strong in Israel.
It is strange, though, because I was assured by TGZ that support for Netanyahu was solid and unwavering in Israel. This article shows that not all Israelis are in favour of the extremist rhetoric employed by the far-right fundamentalists in the government.
It would also be interesting to see if there are growing numbers of Palestinians who, horrified by the destruction that Hamas has brought upon them, are refusing to fight for that group. So far, despite a few flickers of discontent, most Palestinians still hate Israel and the Jews so much that they are quite prepared to die in their tens of thousands, rather than try living peacefully. This is both disappointing and tragic.
 
Contradicting yourself again, Yak.

If hardly anyone refuses to serve, that means support is solid for Netanjahu's actions, including yours.

Are you going to condem Gazan physicians getting killed in Israeli detention as the war crime that it is?

Are you going to demand consequences?

Do you expect there will be any?
 
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The Great Zaganza said:
Contradicting yourself again, Yak.
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Again? Do, please these previous instances of me contradicting myself.
The Great Zaganza said:
If hardly anyone refuses to serve, that means support is solid for Netanjahu's actions, including yours.
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No, it doesn't. It just means that only a few people are brave enough to tale action on their beliefs.
The Great Zaganza said:
Are you going to condem Gazan physicians getting killed in Israeli detention as the war crime that it is?
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Yes.
The Great Zaganza said:
Are you going to demand consequences?
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Yes.
The Great Zaganza said:
Do you expect there will be any?
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Yes. Indeed, there already have.
 
I may have posted this previously (can't search for it presently) ---- in any case, it's worth repeating.

www.jpost.com

Why moving to the Sinai peninsula is the solution for Gaza's Palestinians - opinion

The Sinai Peninsula comprises one of the most suitable places on Earth to provide the people of Gaza with hope and a peaceful future.
www.jpost.com www.jpost.com

"A creative solution is needed ASAP."

Hopefully, Egypt bravely chooses to change its rigid, old-fashioned policy of keeping Palestinian Gazans in constant distress. However, history has taught us that Gazans, despite their complaints about their humanitarian situation, may object towards genuine rehabilitation programs. This stubbornness substantially relies on their desire to destroy Israel, which repeatedly comes at their own expense. The current ongoing obliteration of Hamas, which terrorizes Palestinian Authority officials and Gaza residents, may pave the way to the emergence of this proposed Sinai solution, if presented in a wise and discrete manner that conforms to the Middle East mentality.
 
Excellent news --- A top-level ghoul in Gaza is gone.
www.israelnationalnews.com

IDF eliminates senior terrorist in Hamas' Internal Security Forces

Osama Ghanim held a key role in implementing Hamas’ brutal methods, which included conducting harsh civilian interrogations while violating human rights.
www.israelnationalnews.com www.israelnationalnews.com

I am curious, at what point will the ordinary Gazans themselves decide they need to take control of the Strip and start sidelining these Jihadists? It's something that needs to happen.
 
More logically and fairly, it is Israelis who should consider moving to the Sinai, as their presence in Palestine is that of an occupying colonial force not indigenous to the area. That distinction belongs to those who were there in the early 20th century and who remain displaced in refugee camps and surrounding nations. Israeli claims to the land have no basis in law; they rely exclusively on theological argument. In that regard, ISIS fighting to restore the Caliphate is on equal footing. Actually, better footing, as the ME geopolitical map was drawn by Western powers and does not correspond to historical conditions.

Interesting that Amnesty International has done its homework and finds both genocidal intent and evidence of the crimes listed in that law. It is a real stretch to claim any geopolitical agenda behind Amnesty's accusation. It is disingenuous at best to claim bias, as the accusation is very well documented. Anecdotally, of course, anyone with the will to see can witness the many declarations of intent and the plethora of celebratory videos put out by IDF soldiers documenting their criminality. The abundance of evidence is a function of the level of impunity, which having now been wildly increased by the incoming Trump administration, clearly indicates we will see the full displacement and dispossession of all remaining stateless Palestinians, or their murder.

Americans and Israelis are genocidal war criminals, both sharing a settler colonial cultural foundation that inures and blinds their people to their own guilt, neatly wrapped in anthems and glorified histories, buttressed by motivated reasoning and an aversion to discomfiting factual reality.
 
The incoming Trump Administration will assure that Gaza is no longer a threat to Israel.
Same for Lebanon.

Beyond that, go fish.
 
webfusion said:
The incoming Trump Administration will assure that Gaza is no longer a threat to Israel.
Same for Lebanon.

Beyond that, go fish.
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IMHO unless Trump intends major US Military Involment In Gaza and Lebanon, it is just Trump mouthing off again.
, I doubt even donnie wants to see American body bags coming home from Lebanon.
And, realistically, what can the US military do in Leganon and Gaza that the IDF is not doing?
 
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Cash is King.

www.yahoo.com

Amid a cash shortage in Gaza, paper money is starting to disintegrate, adding to desperation

No banks. No bills. Israel's blockade on cash imports into Gaza leaves Palestinians there with disintegrating paper money amid growing desperation.
www.yahoo.com www.yahoo.com

Contrast this to the days when hundreds of thousands of Palestinians were working in Israel every day, at good wages, and could buy what they wished, no problem.
Gaza is doomed. Thanks to HAMAS.
A mass breach of the Sinai fencelines is just a matter of time.

"Perhaps afterward, (ed.- war ending) we will see a diplomatic process with Saudi Arabia, which, in my view, could transform the entire dialogue among the descendants of Abraham." -- President Herzog in remarks to Israeli Muslims.
 
And nobody knows how the Fall of the Assad regime,,probably ineivtable since Putin has clearly sold Assad donw the river...will impact the Mideast.
 
Here we are, over a year into the war, and each new day brings HAMAS closer to complete liquidation.
It's really quite a sight to see. (I think even the French are grudgingly respectful of the way IDF is handling the fight)

www.yahoo.com

IDF: Hamas commander involved in Oct. 7 attack killed

The Israeli military said Friday that the Hamas commander who oversaw the Oct. 7 attack on Kibbutz Nahal Oz has been killed.
www.yahoo.com www.yahoo.com

dubablb asked what can the USA --- under the incoming administration --- will be able to do ("donnie" -- really, what's that about? Nobody calls him that)

Well, for starters, Elon Musk has something to say about it.
He's more interested in the Gaza-Sinai/NewPalestineState idea than anyone here realizes.
 
webfusion said:
I am curious, at what point will the ordinary Gazans themselves decide they need to take control of the Strip and start sidelining these Jihadists? It's something that needs to happen.
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I'm referencing this prior post, because of today's news about the assassination of a prominent Gaza citizen that has publicly tried to point out the futility of HAMAS rule.
www.jpost.com

Prominent anti-Hamas Gazan activist assassinated by terror group

Abu Hayya was a regular target for Hamas enforces, who tortured him in September, leaving him hospitalized.
www.jpost.com www.jpost.com

Abu Hayya became prominent in August when he called on the world to "save us from Hamas" in a video featured by Al-Arabiya online newsmedia.
 
Cosmic Yak said:
"Jews are not indigenous to Judea" is quite the claim!
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no, it's not.
There might be some Jewish Groups that can claim a historical affinity to the region that doesn't go back half a millennia or more.
But "the Jews" in general, which mostly constitute of the Diaspora, don't have dips on the territory they left at the time of the Roman Empire.
If Israeli are justified to kick out Palestinians, clearly the Romans were justified to kick out Jews.
 
Judaism is based in the BELIEFS of people regarding the Temple Mount (Foundation Stone -- protected by the imposing structure called the Dome of the Rock).
Christianity adopted the tradition (and BELIEFS) of that site. During the Byzantine Era, a Church was constructed overlooking the area -- when the Arabs left Medina on the Arabian Peninsula to conquer and pillage and plunder (and forcibly convert) they developed their own myths surrounding the Foundation Stone (i.e. - winged flying horse with a Godly Prophet -- who reportedly really never entered Jerusalem himself, and dreamed up the whole story).
Hence, Al-Aqsa Mosque was consecrated upon the ruins of that Byzantine Church, and the beautiful golden-domed shrine that we know today was built above the rock to honor and protect that Judaism-promulgated alter.

Dibs? I have no idea what you're going on about here.
Israel doesn't claim dibs (Sole Proprietorship; Exclusive Rights; Ownership, etc) .
Israel only claims as much RIGHT as anyone else.
HAMAS & Co. disagree. (apparently, YOU also disagree).

By the way, when the term "Chosen People" is used, it means that the Hebrews have been Chosen by God to Recieve and Accept the Torah. Nothing to do with the specifics of land areas.
 
The Great Zaganza said:
no, it's not.
There might be some Jewish Groups that can claim a historical affinity to the region that doesn't go back half a millennia or more.
But "the Jews" in general, which mostly constitute of the Diaspora, don't have dips on the territory they left at the time of the Roman Empire.
If Israeli are justified to kick out Palestinians, clearly the Romans were justified to kick out Jews.
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As usual, you have to play fast and loose with history in order to make your point.
 
What a crazy week.

Gazan terrorists are scrambling to locate and account for all the Israeli hostages, in order to prepare a list that Israel is demanding to see. Beginning of the end of this fiasco which HAMAS brought upon themselves.

Syria? Adios Assad, Beinvenidos Nusra.

Lebanon? Hezbollah has stepped in some deep doo-doo (supply lines are cut)

Jordan? The King is keeping quiet, staying very much out of everything going on around him.

Israel? Happy Channukah. -- Celebration of defeat of ancient Syrians, and a reminder to perpetuate our Jewish religious practices (Torah), culture, and traditions, in the face of those who aren't willing to accept our rights.
 
webfusion said:
Judaism is based in the BELIEFS of people regarding the Temple Mount (Foundation Stone -- protected by the imposing structure called the Dome of the Rock).
Christianity adopted the tradition (and BELIEFS) of that site. During the Byzantine Era, a Church was constructed overlooking the area -- when the Arabs left Medina on the Arabian Peninsula to conquer and pillage and plunder (and forcibly convert) they developed their own myths surrounding the Foundation Stone (i.e. - winged flying horse with a Godly Prophet -- who reportedly really never entered Jerusalem himself, and dreamed up the whole story).
Hence, Al-Aqsa Mosque was consecrated upon the ruins of that Byzantine Church, and the beautiful golden-domed shrine that we know today was built above the rock to honor and protect that Judaism-promulgated alter.

Dibs? I have no idea what you're going on about here.
Israel doesn't claim dibs (Sole Proprietorship; Exclusive Rights; Ownership, etc) .
Israel only claims as much RIGHT as anyone else.
HAMAS & Co. disagree. (apparently, YOU also disagree).

By the way, when the term "Chosen People" is used, it means that the Hebrews have been Chosen by God to Recieve and Accept the Torah. Nothing to do with the specifics of land areas.
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"God , I know we are your chosen people, but could'nt you choose someone else for a change?'

Tevye in "Fiddler On The Roof".
 
Cosmic Yak said:
"Jews are not indigenous to Judea" is quite the claim!
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What are the origins of Zionism? Perhaps based on, say, a perceived need for a then non-existent Jewish nation-state at the outset of the 20th century? What percent of the local population in Palestine was Jewish at the start of the 20th century? By 1948? By today? What is that growth rate attributable to? Immigration?

OMG, that pesky timeline of factual events, factual acid to Zionist lies. Tsk.

Jews are not indigenous to Palestine, except for the tiny amount of continuous residents, if any. Certainly not the bulk of the European Jews who migrated there, and not those coming from nearby states, Yemen, parts of Africa, either. Unlike, say, Aboriginal Australians, whose ties to the land are unbroken, making them both historical and contemporary; bingo, indigenous.

Wait, wait... indigenous on the basis of biblical accounts? Sorry, Exodus has been thoroughly debunked. Besides, there is no evidence of a major Jewish diaspora after the Romans conquered the land. What there is evidence for is the conversion of inhabitants to Christianity and later to Islam; and voilá, today's indigenous Palestinian inhabitants, including all those displaced during the Nakba and ever since.
 
The timeline of the current factual events in Gaza started October 7th.
Nobody is interested in talking about "Jewish Groups that can claim a historical affinity to the region"

Let's get past this war, and see how things go afterwards.

I'm pretty sure a 'confederation of cooperation' can be arranged which provides all parties a long-overdue resolution.
Are you in favor of seeing that happen, H. ? Most people would, especially in light of the situation in Syria and Lebanon.

HAMAS has produced a list.
That is step one.

Details to follow.
 
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