How is Israel Going to Retaliate Against Hamas? Part 3

[webfusion]

Gaza is not starved of food. The distribution problems are a result of Gazans (and their violent residents) themselves.
I do not condemn Israel for providing that food, medicine, water, fuel, and other aid.
Your hypothetical is rejected.

I'm applauding Israel for taking the steps needed to assure Gazans of their basic needs.

Gangs and 'ultra-violence' blocking south Gaza aid distribution

Aid workers say armed gangs operating within sight of Israeli forces are looting supplies, amid severe shortages.

www.bbc.com

"... increasingly violent thefts by criminal gangs are now the main obstacle to distributing supplies in the south of Gaza, aid workers and locals say." -- BBC article linked above.

As for the Ethnic Cleansing, I wholeheartedly condemn the ethnic cleansing of Jewish populations that occurred on October 7th 2023.
Many Israeli towns, farms and villages are still emptied of Jews.
(Also in the northern communities along the Lebanese border).

Palestinians have reached a crossroads.
Mahmoud Abbas, the titular head of their entire political landscape, realizes that he's gonna be out of the picture before too long, and he's planning for that. Unfortunately for the entire Palestinian people, the best they can muster to lead them is a fat, disgusting, old, decrepit Fatah humbug.

Abbas is even now working-around the current Palestinian law, which stipulates that the speaker of the Palestinian Legislative Council (PLC) become president in case of a power vacuum.
However, the PLC has been dissolved for years, with the last elected speaker being from Fatah's rival, HAMAS.

 

[Ivor the Engineer]

Gaza is not starved of food. The distribution problems are a result of Gazans (and their violent residents) themselves.
I do not condemn Israel for providing that food, medicine, water, fuel, and other aid.
Your hypothetical is rejected.

I'm applauding Israel for taking the steps needed to assure Gazans of their basic needs.

Gangs and 'ultra-violence' blocking south Gaza aid distribution

Aid workers say armed gangs operating within sight of Israeli forces are looting supplies, amid severe shortages.

www.bbc.com

"... increasingly violent thefts by criminal gangs are now the main obstacle to distributing supplies in the south of Gaza, aid workers and locals say." -- BBC article linked above.

As for the Ethnic Cleansing, I wholeheartedly condemn the ethnic cleansing of Jewish populations that occurred on October 7th 2023.
Many Israeli towns, farms and villages are still emptied of Jews.
(Also in the northern communities along the Lebanese border).

Palestinians have reached a crossroads.
Mahmoud Abbas, the titular head of their entire political landscape, realizes that he's gonna be out of the picture before too long, and he's planning for that. Unfortunately for the entire Palestinian people, the best they can muster to lead them is a fat, disgusting, old, decrepit Fatah humbug.

Abbas is even now working-around the current Palestinian law, which stipulates that the speaker of the Palestinian Legislative Council (PLC) become president in case of a power vacuum.
However, the PLC has been dissolved for years, with the last elected speaker being from Fatah's rival, HAMAS.

I didn't ask for your interpretation of the past or current actions of Israel or Hamas.

When is using mass starvation as a weapon of war acceptable?

When is engaging in ethnic cleansing acceptable?

When is destroying hospitals with dozens if not hundreds of civilians in them acceptable?

 

[webfusion]

I didn't ask for your interpretation of the past or current actions of Israel or Hamas.

When is using mass starvation as a weapon of war acceptable?

When is engaging in ethnic cleansing acceptable?

When is destroying hospitals with dozens if not hundreds of civilians in them acceptable?

I'll just know it when I see it.
As should you.

 

[Ivor the Engineer]

I'll just know it when I see it.
As should you.

Still not an answer to what should be three very simple questions. Have you so little confidence that Israel has not or will not engage in any of them you can't demonstrate Israel's ethical superiority to Hamas by declaring them ALL unacceptable?

 

[Blank]

Still not an answer to what should be three very simple questions. Have you so little confidence that Israel has not or will not engage in any of them you can't demonstrate Israel's ethical superiority to Hamas by declaring them ALL unacceptable?

Spoken like a true terrorist backer.

Just for reference - Hamas murdered civilians at a pace of 400 000 per year and clearly stated that they would sustain that pace and keep at it if they could. IDF could kill ALL Gazans in a matter of minutes but they don't/want.

Traffic kills 40 000 civilians per year in the States, GM is obviously a devious genocidal organization.

War sucks, maybe Gazans ahould oust the organization that they are harboring in their homes and return the hostages. Until then IDF gets a lot of leeway in getting rid of the Hamas guys that are embedded in the population.

Just a quick question tho..

Do you consider Hamas tunnels to be legitimate military targets?
What if there is a house built on top of the tunnel? A hospital? A mosque? What type of building would turn it into a illegal target for you?

 

[Ivor the Engineer]

Spoken like a true terrorist backer.

Just for reference - Hamas murdered civilians at a pace of 400 000 per year and clearly stated that they would sustain that pace and keep at it if they could. IDF could kill ALL Gazans in a matter of minutes but they don't/want.

Traffic kills 40 000 civilians per year in the States, GM is obviously a devious genocidal organization.

War sucks, maybe Gazans ahould oust the organization that they are harboring in their homes and return the hostages. Until then IDF gets a lot of leeway in getting rid of the Hamas guys that are embedded in the population.

Just a quick question tho..

Do you consider Hamas tunnels to be legitimate military targets?
What if there is a house built on top of the tunnel? A hospital? A mosque? What type of building would turn it into a illegal target for you?

Hamas tunnels are legitimate military targets.

Nothing would turn it into an illegal target. What can be unethical is the approach used to target them.

 

[webfusion]

I am not so sure that Israel is seeking 'ethical superiority' over HAMAS & the rest of their fellow-traveler jihadist cadres. It seems rather that we're just seeking to kill as many HAMAS as possible. That mission is going spendidly.
Sorry if you don't appreciate it.

 

[Cosmic Yak]

That's just a commentary on what's happening, not a red line. The former is generally downplayed or excused because of circumstances. The latter is a standard you expect your team to play by.

By whom? You seem to be addressing forum members, rather than the world at large. Which forumites are you specifically addressing? Or is that just a hlafordlaes-style blanket condemnation of something that no-one here is doing, in order to put yourself on an undeserved moral high horse?

For example:

"I would condemn Israel if they used mass starvation as a weapon of war."

"I would condemn Israel if they knowingly targeted civilian facilities such as hospitals."

"I would condemn Israel if they undertook ethnic cleansing."

I can only speak for myself, but I have condemned excessive Israeli actions many times, on this very forum. The issue of hospitals is more complicated than you state it: had you read any of the previous posts on this topic, you would be aware of that. Your preferred approach seems to be to ignore what has been said, and make accusations from a position of biased ignorance. Not productive, old chap. Not productive at all.

Does anyone on team Israel subscribe to any of those? Or are they all acceptable for those on team Israel? If so, are they acceptable when your enemies try to do them to Israelis?

When you define 'Team Israel', in terms of who you consider to be its members, then we can have a serious discussion- but not before.

Whose team is God cheering on? Or are all sides going to burn in Hell for eternity?

Now you're sounding like hlafordlaes again. Is anyone here framing this conversation in those religious terms, or is this just you strawmanning again?

 

[The Great Zaganza]

400,000 per year?
What kind of stupid number is this?

 

[Planigale]

Hamas tunnels are legitimate military targets.

Nothing would turn it into an illegal target. What can be unethical is the approach used to target them.

What about if they were used as bomb shelters for civilians?

Hamas has never claimed this, but if in North Gaza they decided to use the tunnels as bomb shelters that would make attacking them a war crime.

 

[Planigale]

400,000 per year?
What kind of stupid number is this?

I think if we say that it takes an IDF bomb seconds to kill 30 civilian Palestinians then multiply it by the number of seconds in a year, we could say the IDF is killing Palestinians at a rate of 30,000,000 a year and given there are only 3,000,000 Palestinians and the war has already gone on for a year the IDF has commited genocide by now.

The is how you make stupid calculations.

 

[Cosmic Yak]

What about if they were used as bomb shelters for civilians?

Hamas has never claimed this, but if in North Gaza they decided to use the tunnels as bomb shelters that would make attacking them a war crime.

No, Hamas has not. In fact, the true situation is the opposite of that. When they get an IDF warning of an imminent strike on a building, Hamas, rather than getting the civilian inhabitants of that location to go into the safety of tunnels- of which Hamas has dug hundreds of miles- they tell those people to stand on the top of the building, to put them directly in harm's way. The aim is, of course, to use the ensuing civilian casualties as fuel for their propaganda campaign.

 

[The Great Zaganza]

I'm sure you have independent evidence for this claim

 

[The Great Zaganza]

Israeli government shooting the messenger once again:

https://www.axios.com/2024/11/25/israeli-government-votes-to-boycott-haaretz

Boycotting Haaretz: Part of Netanyahu's Masterplan to Destroy Press F…

archived 29 Nov 2024 05:04:45 UTC

archive.ph

 

[webfusion]

I'm sure you have independent evidence for this claim (e.g. - HAMAS using civilians as 'protection' on rooftops) ---

This is a matter of you refusing to just accept basic facts.

The Origin of Hamas's Human Shields Strategy in Gaza

Hamas absolutely disregards the safety and well-being of Gazans by deliberately and nefariously placing its infrastructure and armaments among civilians.

www.newsweek.com

(NOTE: The author is a Palestinian Gazan, so not really 'independent' I guess, as he accuses Nizaar Rayan of formulating this specific strategy)

 

[steenkh]

No, Hamas has not. In fact, the true situation is the opposite of that. When they get an IDF warning of an imminent strike on a building, Hamas, rather than getting the civilian inhabitants of that location to go into the safety of tunnels- of which Hamas has dug hundreds of miles- they tell those people to stand on the top of the building, to put them directly in harm's way. The aim is, of course, to use the ensuing civilian casualties as fuel for their propaganda campaign.

Is it possible to see all those people on the roofs on the target pictures taken by the strike planes?

 

[The Great Zaganza]

Is it possible to see all those people on the roofs on the target pictures taken by the strike planes?

that's not how IDF targeting works.
Israel has spend the last decades trying to gathering data on all Palestinians, and everyone they identify they assign a "likelihood of being a terrorist" score. Then they let their A.I. pick the targets - human decision doesn't really come into it, now that the IDf needs to bomb something, anything, as to not look weak to their far-right.

https://www.npr.org/2023/12/14/1218643254/israel-is-using-an-ai-system-to-find-targets-in-gaza-experts-say-its-just-the-st

AI-assisted targeting in the Gaza Strip - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[steenkh]

This is a matter of you refusing to just accept basic facts.

The Origin of Hamas's Human Shields Strategy in Gaza

Hamas absolutely disregards the safety and well-being of Gazans by deliberately and nefariously placing its infrastructure and armaments among civilians.

www.newsweek.com

(NOTE: The author is a Palestinian Gazan, so not really 'independent' I guess, as he accuses Nizaar Rayan of formulating this specific strategy)

The article is interesting, though I doubt that they actually swarm the roofs with civilians today as they did in 2006. The target pictures I have seen, seem to show that the roofs are empty.

But I am in no doubt that it is intentional to have Hamas weapons factories and other military facilities mixed in with civilians. First of all, it appears to me that there is not so much empty land that it could be otherwise, and secondly, Hamas has always had the strategy of luring Israel to commit crimes against humanity, and Israel happily obliged. The strategy has worked: Hamas is stronger than ever - though not in Gaza - and has won much sympathy and funding. The rapprochement between Israel and other Arab nations has also been stopped.

That Netanyahu should be charged for genocide was probably hoped for, but that Al-Masri would be charged also was probably a surprise. The outrage among Palestinian supporters over this is just as bad as the outrage among Israeli supporters over Netanyahus warrant.

 

[steenkh]

that's not how IDF targeting works.

Of course not, but I was not talking about Israeli target practice, but about whether Hamas’ defence strategy of placing civilians on the roof is apparent from the target pictures.

 

[Ivor the Engineer]

What about if they were used as bomb shelters for civilians?

Hamas has never claimed this, but if in North Gaza they decided to use the tunnels as bomb shelters that would make attacking them a war crime.

Absolutely. If a military force is knowingly killing large numbers of civilians to kill a much smaller number of combatants, or even worse, just destroy enemy infrastructure, then they are committing a war crime.

 

[Ivor the Engineer]

Team Israel = those who think the Israeli response to 7th Oct attacks by Hamas is going to be constructive toward peace in the region.

 

[Ivor the Engineer]

No, Hamas has not. In fact, the true situation is the opposite of that. When they get an IDF warning of an imminent strike on a building, Hamas, rather than getting the civilian inhabitants of that location to go into the safety of tunnels- of which Hamas has dug hundreds of miles- they tell those people to stand on the top of the building, to put them directly in harm's way. The aim is, of course, to use the ensuing civilian casualties as fuel for their propaganda campaign.

How reliably do you think this works for Hamas? I mean, once you observe and hear enough times that the Israelis bomb the buildings anyway, wouldn't you just take your chances and try to find a place that is safer from both Hamas and the Israeli bombs?

 

[Cosmic Yak]

How reliably do you think this works for Hamas? I mean, once you observe and hear enough times that the Israelis bomb the buildings anyway, wouldn't you just take your chances and try to find a place that is safer from both Hamas and the Israeli bombs?

So you didn't read any of the posts about Hamas' use of hospitals for military purposes, and now we see that you haven't read the posts on their use of human shields either. Your preference to enter this debate with confident opinions based on a serious ignorance of the facts is not something to be applauded.
Here's one of the links again.

https://stratcomcoe.org/cuploads/pfiles/hamas_human_shields.pdf

Here are some Hamas officials saying that they deliberately do not build bomb shelters in Gaza, the reason being that they want civilian deaths to use as propaganda.

Hamas officials admit its strategy is to use Palestinian civilians as human shields

An interviewer recently posed a logical question to Mousa Abu Marzouk, a senior member of the Hamas politburo: “Since you have built 500 kilometers of tunnels, why haven’t you built bomb shelters where...

www.fdd.org

 

[Cosmic Yak]

Is it possible to see all those people on the roofs on the target pictures taken by the strike planes?

Yes.

https://www.gov.il/en/pages/hamas-use-of-civilians-as-human-shields

https://www.idf.il/en/mini-sites/the-hamas-terrorist-organization/hamas-caught-using-human-shields-in-gaza/

 

[webfusion]

While there's still much left to be accomplished in ridding Gaza of jihadist control (and s.Lebanon, while we're at it)
it is worth noting that their future is about to become radically different ---- and high-tech.

Saudis (et.al) have the ability and willingness to transform the Gaza Strip into a megalopolis.

Saudi king officially opens Riyadh metro project

King Salman inaugurated Riyadh's new metro network, a cornerstone of Saudi Vision 2030 that will begin serving passengers next month.

www.jpost.com

Israel has the ability to develop energy projects to alleviate Gaza's reliance on IEC transmission lines.
Invite Inna Braverman to bring her company's capabilities onto Gaza's shoreline.

The energy industry needs more women, says Eco Wave Power CEO

Inna Braverman will be one of the speakers at the Jerusalem Post's Women Leaders Summit, held on March 27, at the Google for Startup Campus in Tel Aviv.

www.jpost.com

There's so much more, it's actually exciting to envision what the Gazans can look forward to.
Alongside cooperation and coordination with Israel. That is their only way ahead.

 

[steenkh]

Yes.

https://www.gov.il/en/pages/hamas-use-of-civilians-as-human-shields

https://www.idf.il/en/mini-sites/the-hamas-terrorist-organization/hamas-caught-using-human-shields-in-gaza/

Both articles are from 2014.

 

[The Great Zaganza]

Hamas tried the "get sympathy by giving Israel the opportunity to kill civilians" in Great March of Return protests - and it didn't work, despite countless cases of IDF snipers killing and maiming women and children for no reason apart from cruelty.
10/7 proven that Hamas has learned that lesson.

 

[The Great Zaganza]

What's the general opinion here on the question of whether the IDF personnel killed in the Oct. 7th attack were legitimate military targets or not ?

 

[steenkh]

Hamas tried the "get sympathy by giving Israel the opportunity to kill civilians" in Great March of Return protests - and it didn't work, despite countless cases of IDF snipers killing and maiming women and children for no reason apart from cruelty.
10/7 proven that Hamas has learned that lesson.

So now they thought: “There are other ways to make IDF kill thousands of civilians”?

 

[steenkh]

What's the general opinion here on the question of whether the IDF personnel killed in the Oct. 7th attack were legitimate military targets or not ?

Inasmuch as there was a situation of war, yes, IDF personnel would be legitimate targets. But they didn’t stop at that, did they?

 

[lionking]

Inasmuch as there was a situation of war, yes, IDF personnel would be legitimate targets. But they didn’t stop at that, did they?

The only acts remotely like war before Oct 7 were Hamas’s relentless rocket attacks on Israel.

 

[steenkh]

The only acts remotely like war before Oct 7 were Hamas’s relentless rocket attacks on Israel.

I agree. But you could still argue that that constituted a war situation. The Israelis certainly were not in doubt.

I have always thought that Hamas kept up the war situation because war is its raison d’être, whereas Israel did its best to keep up encroachment, and a situation close to war in the West Bank where there was not a military opponent. This probably also showed Hamas what would happen if they dropped the war. However, the Israelis want the West Bank for religious reasons, and their religion doesn’t say much about the Gaza Strip, so Hamas would probably have been left in peace while the West Bank was cleansed of original inhabitants.

 

[Cosmic Yak]

Both articles are from 2014.

OK. Not 'thanks, CY, for providing the evidence I asked for.' Not ' wow, Hamas really are nasty people, and using human shields is a war crime!'.
No. Just a comment on the dates of the articles. Well, you may not care about these crimes, but I do, and will continue to oppose and condemn them. You carry on...doing whatever you do.

 

[webfusion]

BREAKING NEWS: World Central Kitchen is suspending their activities in Gaza, after the targeted IAF assassination of Ahed Azmi Qdeih.

World Central Kitchen pauses Gaza work after car carrying staff hit by Israeli strike

Israel said the target of the strike was involved in the October 7 attacks and also worked at the charity World Central Kitchen.

www.bbc.com

 

[lionking]

BREAKING NEWS: World Central Kitchen is suspending their activities in Gaza, after the targeted IAF assassination of Ahed Azmi Qdeih.

World Central Kitchen pauses Gaza work after car carrying staff hit by Israeli strike

Israel said the target of the strike was involved in the October 7 attacks and also worked at the charity World Central Kitchen.

www.bbc.com

Protesting the death of a terrorist killer? World Central Kitchen failure.

 

[steenkh]

OK. Not 'thanks, CY, for providing the evidence I asked for.' Not ' wow, Hamas really are nasty people, and using human shields is a war crime!'.
No. Just a comment on the dates of the articles. Well, you may not care about these crimes, but I do, and will continue to oppose and condemn them. You carry on...doing whatever you do.

Why should I thank you for bringing up evidence that is irrelevant for the present conflict? I started by asking if the target pictures showed people on the roofs with the missile underway, and you bring evidence that in 2014 the IDF held back.

And, just for the record, I also care about Hamas’ crimes, and oppose and condemn them, just as I care about Israel’s crimes. And I don’t think the crimes of one side cancels out the crimes of the other side.

 

[webfusion]

LK, there were many, many Gazans who went across into Israel after the fences were torn down.
It was a free-for-all and literally hundreds of people surged through, after the initial breaches.

At this point, I don't know the circumstances regarding Ahed Azmi Qdeih and how he was identified and tracked, a year later.

 

[Cosmic Yak]

Why should I thank you for bringing up evidence that is irrelevant for the present conflict?

Has Hamas stopped using human shields? No, it hasn't. Thus, evidence of their use of human shields is not irrelevant.

I started by asking if the target pictures showed people on the roofs with the missile underway,

And it was noted that such evidence would be almost impossible to obtain.

and you bring evidence that in 2014 the IDF held back.

What do you mean by 'held back'? That the IDF held back from launching missiles against those buildings, or that the IDF held back the evidence?

And, just for the record, I also care about Hamas’ crimes, and oppose and condemn them, just as I care about Israel’s crimes. And I don’t think the crimes of one side cancels out the crimes of the other side.

Really? Because it looks to me like you're desperately trying to find ways to avoid accepting that Hamas uses human shields.

 

[The Great Zaganza]

Anyone still insisting Israel isn't conducting Ethnic Cleansing?

https://www.timesofisrael.com/netanyahus-ex-defense-chief-yaalon-warns-israel-on-path-of-ethnic-cleansing-in-gaza/

 

[webfusion]

I am insisting that Israel is not conducting 'ethnic cleansing' -- it may indeed reach that point, if the war continues without a resolution (of the hostages being returned, along with cadavers of Oren Shaul and Hadar Goldin).

Netanyahu has repeatedly said such actions (displacement of Gazans out of Gaza) are not the goal of the war, nor are they on the agenda.

Nobody is disputing there has been wartime relocation.
That is much different than clear evidence of "ethnic cleansing' -- scholars do not agree on which events constitute ethnic cleansing. The term has gained widespread acceptance primarily due to journalism. "Ethnic cleansing" has no legal definition under international criminal law.

If you want to see actual ethnic cleansing look no further than the 2005 ejection of Jews from their lovely and tranquil homes along the Gaza coast. (See: Neve Dekalim).