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How is Israel Going to Retaliate Against Hamas? Part 3

I'm also reminded of the old story about the frog carrying the scorpion across the river.
I'm actually teaching people from some of the Saudi government ministries. From what I can gather, they are largely in favour of Trump too. I wonder how long it will take before they- and the policy-makers in the region- become disillusioned, assuming that Trump's pro-Israel appointees do what is expected. This, I think, may well be more significant for Trump than just alienating a small minority of American voters. The ramifications for US-Middle East relations are potentially enormous.
I'm curious why you think Trump's approach to Israel is more important to Saudi Arabia than his approach to Iran. I would think that Iran is actually a bigger issue for the Saudis than Israel. It certainly affects them a lot more. And I expect they probably will like Trump's approach to Iran better than Biden's.
 
No, it requires Congress's approval. If a few representatives then lose their next election afterwards that won't bother Trump.
But it will bother those representatives, which is why they're not going to grant their approval without at least some public support. And Congress's next election is 2026, not 2028, so if they lose their seats in 2026, that affects Trump's ability to do what he wants rather directly.
 
But it will bother those representatives, which is why they're not going to grant their approval without at least some public support. And Congress's next election is 2026, not 2028, so if they lose their seats in 2026, that affects Trump's ability to do what he wants rather directly.
Feel free to point that out to Trump. He sometimes seems to miss the memo about when he shouldn't discard people.
 
I'm curious why you think Trump's approach to Israel is more important to Saudi Arabia than his approach to Iran. I would think that Iran is actually a bigger issue for the Saudis than Israel. It certainly affects them a lot more. And I expect they probably will like Trump's approach to Iran better than Biden's.
I hadn't actually made that point, but, as you bring it up: it Trump's approach to Israel is more important than his approach to Iran, to the Saudis. This is because the US has largely been sidelined on this issue. China has brokered a deal between Saudi Arabia and Iran, in which the two reestablished diplomatic relations. The second round of these talks was quite recent:
The constant American flip-flopping on Iran has, I believe, exasperated the Saudis, and the Arab states in general. They have come to see the US as an unreliable ally. Biden's weakness (perceived or otherwise) in relation to Israel has just furthered this perception. China saw this as an opportunity, and deftly stepped into the breach.
Saudi now has a more stable relationship with Iran, which benefits them. Sure, there may be an element of window-dressing- they are never going to be friends- but this agreement does add some stability to the situation, which the ever-changing American approach never got close to establishing.
Israel is the hot topic in the Saudi press right now. The effects on Saudi Arabia, and the region in general, are far wider and deeper than what's now happening with Iran. The Saudis fear a regional war- as does Iran. Israel, or to be more precise, Netanyahu, doesn't. In fact, he needs one, to maintain power in Israel. As long as America is backing him, he can do what he likes, with impunity. If Trump gives him unconditional support, then Netanyahu will have a free hand to continue to attack who he likes, in whatever way he likes. This will further inflame Muslim public opinion, not just in the Middle East, but around the world. The Saudis want to keep their position of control and dominance over Islam, or at least Sunni Islam. If Muslims on their doorstep are being bombed and starved by Israel, that makes it difficult for the Saudis to do that. Furthermore, there will be no accord between Saudi and Israel as long as these wars continue. This accord is something the Saudis want. MBS wants to end his country's pariah status, and an agreement with Israel would really help that.
So, yeah, how Trump deals with Israel does, in my opinion, matter more to the Saudis than what he does with Iran.
 
AMSTERDAM, Nov 21 (Reuters) - Judges at the International Criminal Court have issued arrest warrants for Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu and his former defence chief, as well as a Hamas leader, Ibrahim Al-Masri, for alleged war crimes and crimes against humanity.
The move comes after the ICC prosecutor Karim Khan announced on May 20, that he was seeking arrest warrants for alleged crimes connected to the Oct.7, 2023 attacks on Israel by Hamas and the Israeli military response in Gaza.

The ICC said Israel's acceptance of the court's jurisdiction was not required.
Go, international justice!

How sad the people such laws were designed to protect, as well as the people driving their drafting and passage, have all succumbed to dumb and blind hubris from excess contact with prolonged moral and legal impunity, thus lobotomizing their collective conscience.

How few allies remain, how many now coldly calculate how to dissuade, deter and detain criminal Ameraelies.
 

US blocks UN Security Council resolution for a Ceasefire against all other 14 Security Council Member votes - proving that Israel and the US are pretty much alone in insisting that this conflict must continue no matter what.

Reacting to the veto, China's ambassador said people could not help but ask: "Do Palestinian lives mean nothing?"

France said international humanitarian law was being trampled and the only response should have been an immediate and permanent ceasefire.

The UK said it wanted to end the war, stop the suffering in Gaza and secure the immediate release of all hostages.

But the harshest criticism of the US came from outside the Council doors.

Human Rights Watch's (HRW) UN director, Louis Charbonneau, accused Washington of "once again" using its veto power "to ensure impunity for Israel as its forces continue to commit crimes against Palestinians in Gaza".



Sanders attempt to block the sale of the worst of the weapons going to Israel failed in the Senate, demonstrating that US lawmakers are overwhelmingly for the use if US weapons to kill civilians.

Sanders, in making the case for stopping the sales, said Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu’s government “has not simply waged war against Hamas. It has waged an all-out war against the Palestinian people.”
 
US blocks UN Security Council resolution for a Ceasefire against all other 14 Security Council Member votes - proving that Israel and the US are pretty much alone in insisting that this conflict must continue no matter what.
Hamas could have had a ceasefire a long time ago if they had given up their hostages. Right now, a ceasefire benefits Hamas. Why should Israel agree to one?

Hamas doesn't want a ceasefire in order to protect civilians. They want a ceasefire so that they can regroup and rearm, so that they can do Oct. 7 all over again.
Sanders attempt to block the sale of the worst of the weapons going to Israel failed in the Senate, demonstrating that US lawmakers are overwhelmingly for the use if US weapons to kill civilians.
The worst of the weapons? That's not how your source describes them. Your source just says offensive weapons, but most weapons are offensive. And they include stuff like precision kits for bombs, which help reduce civilian casualties.
 
it is a straight up LIE that the block to ceasefire is Hamas - even assuming that there was someone Israel would let live long enough to negotiate with.
The Hostage Families are on record saying that it is the Israeli government that rejects any efforts for a hostage deal.

Zig, do you honestly think you know better than the family members of the hostages?
 
it is a straight up LIE that the block to ceasefire is Hamas
You say that like there's only one block. And I never made that claim. I did claim that Hamas could have that ceasefire if Hamas really wanted it.

They don't want it enough.
The Hostage Families are on record saying that it is the Israeli government that rejects any efforts for a hostage deal.

Zig, do you honestly think you know better than the family members of the hostages?
I really believe that the families of the hostages can't influence Hamas but they might influence Israel, so Israel is the only party they're trying to pressure.
 
Go, international justice!

How sad the people such laws were designed to protect, as well as the people driving their drafting and passage, have all succumbed to dumb and blind hubris from excess contact with prolonged moral and legal impunity, thus lobotomizing their collective conscience.

How few allies remain, how many now coldly calculate how to dissuade, deter and detain criminal Ameraelies.
The ICC is an irrelevant joke.
 
Go, international justice!

How sad the people such laws were designed to protect, as well as the people driving their drafting and passage, have all succumbed to dumb and blind hubris from excess contact with prolonged moral and legal impunity, thus lobotomizing their collective conscience.

How few allies remain, how many now coldly calculate how to dissuade, deter and detain criminal Ameraelies.
Tell me: What agencies are empowered by these arrest warrants? By what authority will they execute these arrests? Who is bound by the decisions of this court?
 
Hamas wants impossible demands for a cease fire, one being Jerusalem as the capitol of a Palestinian state.

Jerusalem is majority Jewish, that is not going to happen.

Seems to me, that eliminating Hamas is the way to peace.
 
Tell me: What agencies are empowered by these arrest warrants? By what authority will they execute these arrests? Who is bound by the decisions of this court?
The ICC has jurisdiction over war crimes and the like committed by citizens of its 125 signatory states and over such acts committed within those states. The court has jurisdiction over alleged war crimes in Gaza because the "State of Palestine" is one of the 125 signatories. All signatory states have a duty to arrest and transport to The Hague anyone subject to ICC arrest warrant. As of this morning, at least France and the Netherlands have stated that they will comply with arrest and transport Netanyahu and Gallant should they travel to their countries.
 
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it is a straight up LIE that the block to ceasefire is Hamas

No, once again, it is you who is lying. I have repeatedly posted quotes showing that Hamas is blocking the negotiations, as well as Israel.
Just to reinforce this, here's another recent story, which you have clearly missed:
“Qatar has become increasingly frustrated with a lack of progress toward a cease-fire by both Hamas and Israel,”
- even assuming that there was someone Israel would let live long enough to negotiate with.

Yet more dissembling. Again, I have posted numerous quotes from the so-called Hamas 'negotiators', demonstrating that they are committed to the destruction of Israel, and are happy to use the deaths of Palestinian civilians to further that aim. And again, predictably, you have ignored all of that, and continue to spout the same tired, debunked nonsense.
The Hostage Families are on record saying that it is the Israeli government that rejects any efforts for a hostage deal.

You really don't like the concept of evidence, do you? There was a hostage deal, agreed upon by both Hamas and Israel. Most inconvenient for you, no doubt. But, hey, don't let it slow you down. Keep posting this guff. It's a good exercise in scepticism. There aren't many dyed-in-the-wool conspiracy theorists left on this forum, so these posts of yours provide a good substitute, and a way to stop my critical thinking skills from going rusty.
 
It is telling that so many here think they know better than the overwhelming majority of the world's journalists, governments and intelligence organizations about what Israel is and isn't doing.

But then, the US and Israel have always believed that they get to have all the benefits and none of the obligations of being part of the family of nations.
 
It is telling that so many here think they know better than the overwhelming majority of the world's journalists
Bwahahahahahahaha!

Journalists as a class are stupid and ignorant, and very prone to groupthink. It's not exactly hard to know better than most of them.
 
Well, yes I do.

So you are saying that Hamas accepted the existence of an Israeli state within the 1967 border and the claims that it wanted to destroy Israel were untrue? That perhaps negotiations with Hamas on the basis that they accepted the existence of Israel could have been entered into in 2017?
 
So you are saying that Hamas accepted the existence of an Israeli state within the 1967 border and the claims that it wanted to destroy Israel were untrue?
No. The fact that they were not willing to recognize the state of Israel should have clued you in.
 
Hamas wants impossible demands for a cease fire, one being Jerusalem as the capitol of a Palestinian state.

Jerusalem is majority Jewish, that is not going to happen.

Seems to me, that eliminating Hamas is the way to peace.
It would have been, but it's been over a year since the Hamas attack and Israel still hasn't gotten the job done. All it's managed to do so far is turn most of the World against it. I was expecting better. The US gave Israel $17.9 billion in military aid, and what did we get for it? Being accused of supporting war crimes. This shouldn't have happened. Despite misgivings about the inevitable horrors of war, we gave them all the support they could ever have expected and more. And they screwed it up.

Israel is threatening the stability of the entire Middle East by not bringing this conflict to a swift conclusion. Some suggest that Netanyahu is doing it deliberately, but I think it's just plain incompetence, Far from achieving peace he has made the situation far worse. The International Criminal Court was right to put out an arrest warrent against him, not so much for war crimes but for failing to perfom his duties.

One would have thought that of all the nations in the World Israel would be the one to wrap it up in a few weeks, then we could easily forget the horrors as we rejoiced that the Palestinian problem had finally been resolved. But no, they had to screw it up and create the worst ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊◊◊◊◊ of the decade (or possibly the century, depending on what happens in the future). Very disappointing.
 
No. The fact that they were not willing to recognize the state of Israel should have clued you in.
Just to reinforce this point:
Ziggurat is right. Moreover, planigale, it has been repeatedly pointed out to you- with supporting evidence- that Hamas has not, and will not, recognise the state of Israel. Your continued dishonest denial of this fact does you no credit.
 
The ICC is an irrelevant joke.
So irrelevant that those under such arrest warrants are unable to travel to any of the signatory countries, under threat of arrest?

I'm able to travel to all those countries. Unlike them.
I won't get arrested if I go. Unlike them.

Doesn't sound that irrelevant to me.
 
No. The fact that they were not willing to recognize the state of Israel should have clued you in.
But implicitly accepting a Palestinian state within 1967 boundaries is accepting the existence of Israel. People posting here don't seem to understand that you don't start with opposing sides in agreement, negotiations start with conflict and end with an agreement people can live with. As part of the Good Friday agreement in Northern Ireland, Ireland had to change its constitution, to recognise Northern Ireland, people didn't start with saying we won't negotiate peace until Ireland changes its constitution, this was the end result not the start.
 
I'm BAAACK!

But implicitly accepting a Palestinian state within 1967 boundaries is accepting the existence of Israel. -- planigale

HAMAS always has recognized the State of Israel.
Right at the start of their Covenant, it says so.
"Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it's obliterated others before..."

Article 11 is also quite clear about this point.
The Islamic Resistance Movement believes that the land of Palestine is an Islamic Waqf consecrated for future Moslem generations until Judgement Day. It, or any part of it, should not be squandered: It, or any part of it, should not be given up. https://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/hamas.asp

Meanwhile,

Khalid Abu Daqqa, Commander of the Islamic Jihad's Rocket Unit, was eliminated by IDF while he was directing rocket firings from inside the Humanitarian Area in Deir el-Balah, Gaza.

 
It may have already been asked and answered, but for those on team Israel, what would the Israeli's have to do for you to condemn them? Is there any "red line" the Israeli's should not cross? E.g., Starvation? Torture? Purposefully killing women and children? Ethnic cleansing? Use of chemical, biological and/or nuclear weapons? Anything at all?
 
What is occurring presently cannot be compared to a rugby match, so I take exception to the phrase "Team Israel" under these circumstances of warfare.

I am not particularly concerned about Israel's pursuit of this war, and I feel your fears of anything you mentioned are merely groundless hypothetical suppositions. Don't worry about it, in other words.

Meanwhile, in Montreal.
Sieg Heil.
 
It may have already been asked and answered, but for those on team Israel, what would the Israeli's have to do for you to condemn them? Is there any "red line" the Israeli's should not cross? E.g., Starvation? Torture? Purposefully killing women and children? Ethnic cleansing? Use of chemical, biological and/or nuclear weapons? Anything at all?
Failure to eliminate Hamas and end the war.

But then, I am on Team Peace.
 
But implicitly accepting a Palestinian state within 1967 boundaries is accepting the existence of Israel.

No, it isn't. This has been explained to you over and over and over and over and over again. Stop lying.
People posting here don't seem to understand that you don't start with opposing sides in agreement, negotiations start with conflict and end with an agreement people can live with. As part of the Good Friday agreement in Northern Ireland, Ireland had to change its constitution, to recognise Northern Ireland, people didn't start with saying we won't negotiate peace until Ireland changes its constitution, this was the end result not the start.
Sweeping platitudes will not change the fact the Hamas wants to destroy Israel. By force. Without compromise. Stop making excuese for terrorism.
 
It may have already been asked and answered, but for those on team Israel, what would the Israeli's have to do for you to condemn them? Is there any "red line" the Israeli's should not cross? E.g., Starvation? Torture? Purposefully killing women and children? Ethnic cleansing? Use of chemical, biological and/or nuclear weapons? Anything at all?
All the pro-Hamas side has is this kind of strawman. Sad, really.
 
It may have already been asked and answered, but for those on team Israel, what would the Israeli's have to do for you to condemn them? Is there any "red line" the Israeli's should not cross? E.g., Starvation? Torture? Purposefully killing women and children? Ethnic cleansing? Use of chemical, biological and/or nuclear weapons? Anything at all?
Who started this current war?
 
Who started this current war?
Israel.

10/7 was an act of crime and/or terrorism, not war. And then it was a hostage situation.

you don't count all the times Israel went into Gaza, killed people and arrested others as an act of war. Netanyahu decided that it was to justify mass killings of Palestinians in retribution instead of having to get the hostages back and trying to arrest the criminals/terrorists for trial.
 
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For everyone who repeated the story about Sinwar hiding behind hostages: that was a lie manufactured and leaked by Netanyahu's office.
His aides have leaked IDF top secret information to make Bibi look good and give him excuses not to make a hostage deal. They leaked it to the German Yellow Press to circumvent Israeli censorship.
To be clear, those are criminal acts.

what does it say about the justification for mass killing if you have to make up stories because the truth isn't on your side?
 
For everyone who repeated the story about Sinwar hiding behind hostages: that was a lie manufactured and leaked by Netanyahu's office.

The article you link to makes no mention of this story. Moreover, all the news stories I can find on Sinwar's use of the hostages as human shields continue to say that this is what happened. Did you reference the wrong story, or link to the wrong article?
His aides have leaked IDF top secret information to make Bibi look good and give him excuses not to make a hostage deal. They leaked it to the German Yellow Press to circumvent Israeli censorship.

No. They have been accused of doing this. Not the same thing.
To be clear, those are criminal acts.

To be clear, those are accusations of criminal acts, as yet unproven.

End of the day, who is this supposed to shock? Has anyone here painted Netanyahu as perfect and saintly? Has anyone here defended each and every Israeli action? I haven't, that's for sure. Who are you thinking of here?
what does it say about the justification for mass killing if you have to make up stories because the truth isn't on your side?
Again, who are you talking to? Actual people on this forum, or just the voices in your head?
 
For everyone who repeated the story about Sinwar hiding behind hostages: that was a lie manufactured and leaked by Netanyahu's office. -- TGZ

From what I understand, the killing on 31 August of the six hostages who were surrounding Sinwar was accomplished by Sinwar himself, with the pistol he had in his possession (found on his body when his life was ended unceremoniously by an IDF tank round). I have not seen reports of the ballistics testing (comparing his gun to the bullets in the heads of Israeli cadavers that were recovered from the tunnel in Tel al-Sultan).
Your claim, that an entire story of him being surrounded/protected by these people was fabricated, can be disproved by the release of that test.
However, I don't know how you would get access to the autopsies and forensics related to that subject.

Let's be clear.
Israel did not, and is not, engaged in "mass killings" while engaged in pursuit of HAMAS and Hezbollah cadres.
 
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