How does the current financial crisis affect the Challenge funds?

[RoboTimbo]

It seems that despite being informed here directly that the million dollars is safe, Mr Koenig is insisting on spreading his misinformation and lies where he won't get pulled up for them. This post was made by "tommy" on The Magic Cafe.

On 2008-10-14 21:25, tommy wrote:
I have wrote to Randi to see if I can take his test. Every time I throw a penny in the Wishing Well my wish comes true.

Mr Koenig's response follows.

On 2008-10-15 08:50, Psychic Samurai wrote:
Well, you'll have to put a microchip IN the coin to make sure that it is the exact coin that makes your wish come true, and not one of the other coins.

You'll have to prove that the coincidence plays NO PART and that the wish can not come true except by the coin wish itself.

One of Randi's boys or a hired expert will have to be down in the well to make sure the coin is not Switched Out. (You'll have to pay him since Randi covers NO expenses)

The wish must get plenty of media Coverage and you will have to have Academics testify that you can do this BEFORE you get a chance to do it.

HOWEVER ... Opus has a point, and the JREF would not consider it a valid claim since it can't be tested.

(Whatever is left of the Million is safe )

Some people never learn...

Chris

The Professor does foam at the mouth over the silliest things. Should be easy to come up with a protocol for that.

1. Wish for an elephant to appear in your living room.
2. Throw a penny in the well.

Why is The Professor gushing so much over that?

How about if the elephant DOES appear, the guy wins the million.
If it DOESN'T appear, The Professor pays him $1,000.

 

[Cuddles]

The Professor does foam at the mouth over the silliest things. Should be easy to come up with a protocol for that.

1. Wish for an elephant to appear in your living room.
2. Throw a penny in the well.

Why is The Professor gushing so much over that?

How about if the elephant DOES appear, the guy wins the million.
If it DOESN'T appear, The Professor pays him $1,000.

Plus, he'd have an elephant to sell.

Alternatively, if every wish you make comes true, why not just wish for a million dollars and not bother with the JREF at all?

 

[The Professor]

You guys are Funny, but where's the Money?

Where's the new bank statement?

I am so happy that you like to hunt down post by my alter ego Psychic Samurai.

I've joined a new forum and I'll let you know where that one is too.

Wish I had so much time on my hands

The International Seance Project is at hand. Beware

The protocol is almost completed!

Where's the new statement? All I see is the old one.

 

[chillzero]

Where's the new bank statement?

<snip>

Where's the new statement? All I see is the old one.

Did you email and ask for it?

 

[GzuzKryzt]

You guys are Funny, but where's the Money?

Where's the new bank statement?

I am so happy that you like to hunt down post by my alter ego Psychic Samurai.

Wish I had so much time on my hands

The International Seance Project is at hand. Beware

Where's the new statement? All I see is the old one.

Only the JREF Staff can answer that officially. Since they do not frequent the forum regularly I suggest contacting them directly via challenge@randi.org

I should point out that you very likely will receive the same information you already have received multiple times in this thread, namely that the JREF is legally obligated to pay the prize money - in the event of a success on part of the claimant - and that their current funds are sufficient to achieve that.

 

[MattC]

Where's the work you were supposed to have done to find any of this out?

Wait, you've done nothing?

~ Matt

 

[The Professor]

There are over 1000 people every day that are supposed to make their home payments but they are all going into foreclosure.

The only way to get the money is to sue them ... and the bottom line is that you can't get blood out of a tomato.

So having the option of legal action makes no sense.

If the JREF is broke then there is no incentive to pursue the MDC.

Because of the volatile situation with the Stock Market almost everyone I know has been sent updates as to their investments.

Why hasn't the JREF published theirs?

 

[GzuzKryzt]

There are over 1000 people every day that are supposed to make their home payments but they are all going into foreclosure.

The only way to get the money is to sue them ... and the bottom line is that you can't get blood out of a tomato.

So having the option of legal action makes no sense.

If the JREF is broke then there is no incentive to pursue the MDC.

Because of the volatile situation with the Stock Market almost everyone I know has been sent updates as to their investments.

Why hasn't the JREF published theirs?

They have, remember?

Again: Should you feel the need for information that can only be supplied by a JREF Staffer, contact the JREF directly via challenge@randi.org.
Do not hesitate to post the e-mail you sent so that the audience can follow.

 

[MattC]

There are over 1000 people every day that are supposed to make their home payments but they are all going into foreclosure.

The only way to get the money is to sue them ... and the bottom line is that you can't get blood out of a tomato.

So having the option of legal action makes no sense.

If the JREF is broke then there is no incentive to pursue the MDC.

Because of the volatile situation with the Stock Market almost everyone I know has been sent updates as to their investments.

Why hasn't the JREF published theirs?

Why haven't your friends published theirs?

We can keep bandying dumb arguments around until the end of time, but it won't get you any real information of value. If you truly desire this information, QUIT ASKING THE PEOPLE WHO DO NOT HAVE IT (i.e. we forum members) and take GzuzKryzt's advice, which I helpfully quote here:

Should you feel the need for information that can only be supplied by a JREF Staffer, contact the JREF directly via challenge@randi.org.
Do not hesitate to post the e-mail you sent so that the audience can follow.

~ Matt

(ps: for god's sake, by this point it's like you're trying to resist getting the information at all so you can continue to complain about not having it)
(pps: Consider the following:

Because of the volatile situation with the Stock Market almost everyone I know has been sent updates as to their investments.

The money is held in the form of immediately negotiable bonds held by Goldman Sachs, a highly respected investment firm.

I am helpfully bolding specific words I feel are of significance.)

 

[fromdownunder]

If the JREF is broke then there is no incentive to pursue the MDC.

TP, if you are seriously trying to suggest that providing unrefutable evidence that the paranormal exists (by winning the challenge) is utterly worthless outside of Randi's $1 Million, you must live on a different planet than I do.

You would be doing what nobody has ever done. Even Sylvia Browne would bow down before you. And Montel would have you on every show. It would be just the beginning. Then there's the books, the lecture circuit, the TV shows, the marketing for your live appearences...

Think outside the box. Or, you know, work on a protocol that is either finished, or not finished, depending on which thread you are posting.

Norm

 

[Crispy Duck]

You would be doing what nobody has ever done. Even Sylvia Browne would bow down before you. And Montel would have you on every show. It would be just the beginning. Then there's the books, the lecture circuit, the TV shows, the marketing for your live appearences...

On the other hand, there's always the risk that he'll be abducted by the CIA and kept locked in a basement for the rest of his life, remotely-viewing the movements of Osama bin Laden and calling on the spirit of Houdini to eavesdrop in the Kremlin.

 

[RoboTimbo]

There are over 1000 people every day that are supposed to make their home payments but they are all going into foreclosure.

The only way to get the money is to sue them ... and the bottom line is that you can't get blood out of a tomato.

So having the option of legal action makes no sense.

If the JREF is broke then there is no incentive to pursue the MDC.

Because of the volatile situation with the Stock Market almost everyone I know has been sent updates as to their investments.

Why hasn't the JREF published theirs?

Then don't. But quit the whining. Enough people have pointed out to you how to get the information and they've done it enough times. What is it, about once or twice a week that you come on here with the same whine?

Give it up, you're on the wrong forum for that to get traction. Stop being a pouty child about this. You really don't have any self-respect, do you? Certainly nobody here has any for you, because of your actions. Try to show a little pride in yourself, don't go all weepy about the challenge funds. Do what you need to do.

 

[Ocelot]

This Bible, the book that everybody's talking about. I don't think it exists. I went and stood somewhere near a library for hours. That building that's supposed to hold copies of lots of books? If you believe that sort of thing! Anyway no-one put a copy of the bible in my hand, let alone read it aloud to me!

Now I've caught a cold from standing outside and have a nasty itching senseation down below which I suspect was caused when nobody wiped my bottom after my last dump.

Despite telling my milkman all about it, no doctor has come to visit me which means I can't ask this purveyor of suposed medical miralces to change my milk order.

The situation is totally intollerable and so I expect that I should win a huge payout in the courts if only an injury lawyer would call me instead of forcing me to sit here incapacitated watching daytime TV commercials and polishing the keypad on my phone.

What is the entire world except for me doing wrong? It's almost as if no-one else has the sort of reliable psychic powers I claim to have despite not knowing how to test them.

 

[nathan]

Is 'The Professor' unable to distinguish between stock and bond markets?

 

[GzuzKryzt]

Is 'The Professor' unable to distinguish between stock and bond markets?

No.

 

[nathan]

No.

oh, so you think he is able to distinguish between them? If so, how do you account for his concern about the stock market?

 

[RoboTimbo]

oh, so you think he is able to distinguish between them? If so, how do you account for his concern about the stock market?

His lack of psychic ability?

 

[Dr H]

All documentation of assets of the JREF must be available to the general public as they are a Not For Profit group. Hiding money is illegal.
I would like to see this assertion backed up. I've done some looking in Wikipedia and at About.com, and can find no blanket disclosure requirement for non-profits, at either state or national levels.

I would like to see this assertion backed up. I've done some looking in Wikipedia and at About.com, and can find no blanket disclosure requirement for non-profits, at either state or national levels.

I don't see that this was directy answered, and I happened to be driving by, so I thought I'd jump in.

The public records requirement for non-profit corporations is specified in US Code Title 26, Subtitle F, Chapter 61, Subchapter B, § 6104(a)(1)(A), viz.:

If an organization described in section 501 (c) or (d) is exempt from taxation under section 501 (a) for any taxable year [...] the application filed by the organization with respect to which the Secretary made his determination that such organization was entitled to exemption [...] any letter or other document issued by the Internal Revenue Service with respect to such application or notice shall be open to public inspection...

And § 6104(b)

Inspection of annual information returns:
The information required to be furnished by sections 6033, 6034, and 6058, together with the names and addresses of such organizations and trusts, shall be made available to the public ...

§ 6003, 6034, and 6058 explicitly define the sorts of returns that need to be filed. "Return," and "return information" are defined in § 6103(b)(1) and § 6103(b)(2)(A), respectively, as follows:

The term “return” means any tax or information return, declaration of estimated tax, or claim for refund required by, or provided for or permitted under, the provisions of this title...

The term “return information” means—a taxpayer’s identity, the nature, source, or amount of his income, payments, receipts, deductions, exemptions, credits, assets, liabilities, net worth, tax liability, tax withheld, deficiencies, overassessments, or tax payments...

Which, I think, pretty much covers the public disclosure requirement for funding.

 

[GzuzKryzt]

oh, so you think he is able to distinguish between them? If so, how do you account for his concern about the stock market?

Potato salad.

 

[EHocking]

This Bible, the book that everybody's talking about. I don't think it exists. I went and stood somewhere near a library for hours. That building that's supposed to hold copies of lots of books? If you believe that sort of thing! Anyway no-one put a copy of the bible in my hand, let alone read it aloud to me!

Now I've caught a cold from standing outside and have a nasty itching senseation down below which I suspect was caused when nobody wiped my bottom after my last dump.

Despite telling my milkman all about it, no doctor has come to visit me which means I can't ask this purveyor of suposed medical miralces to change my milk order.

The situation is totally intollerable and so I expect that I should win a huge payout in the courts if only an injury lawyer would call me instead of forcing me to sit here incapacitated watching daytime TV commercials and polishing the keypad on my phone.

What is the entire world except for me doing wrong? It's almost as if no-one else has the sort of reliable psychic powers I claim to have despite not knowing how to test them.

​

 

[Azrael 5]

Is 'The Professor' unable to distinguish between stock and bond markets?

No more than being unable to distinguish between fantasy and reality

 

[Azrael 5]

I think it important to keep informing JREF members of TP's inane rants.
Again from Magic Cafe thread about the million.

I called the JREF today again and asked for an update on their money problem.

They took my number and said they'd call back.

Nothing yet

Inane.Why does he care? He has no prototcol? He has no paranormal ability.
He has no common sense.

ETA: I wasn't aware there was a money problem,can anyone clarify?

 

[Jackalgirl]

As far as I know (and I don't claim to know anything), there is no money problem.

TP has a suspicion that the current financial crisis has negatively impacted the amount of money in the prize fund. I believe that this is what he is referring to as the JREF's "money problem" -- it is not their problem, but rather his problem understanding that even if this were true, it would not obviate the JREF's contractual obligation to pay him $1M should he succeed in passing both the preliminary and formal demonstration phases of the Challenge.

Since he and the JREF have not arrived at a mutually-agreed-upon protocol (as far as I know), this is putting the cart before the horse. But I suspect he is looking for an excuse to avoid having to actually attempt to put a protocol down on paper and make it publically viewable.

You see, getting to the protocol phase places him in a bad position: he either sets things up so that he is unable to perform his tricks (by agreeing to a properly-controlled protocol), or he makes it plain that he has no intentions of agreeing to a properly-controlled protocol by refusing to submit or agree to one (which would be available for anyone to see).

By going on and on about the JREF's "money problems", he invents a way to avoid having to actually get to the protocol phase altogether. "I would have submitted a properly-controlled protocol, but I won't bother since they don't have the money!"

 

[rjh01]

You are brilliant Jackalgirl!

 

[Jeff Corey]

Meanwhile at the Magic Cafe, someone who reminds me of someone here sez, "I'm sure Slim will be glad to have you in his corner. Perhaps you can advise him on how to proceed in crafting his protocol.
Randwill

 

[Pogo]

I just saw this posted by "Psychic Samurai" (known here as The Professor) at The Magic Cafe in reply to a supporter who feels he (TP) has been treated unfairly here;

"Thanks Bill!

If you bother to read the other JREF MDC Applicant threads you'll see they do the very same thing to them too

Lot's of Closed Minded Snarky Bashing

It's their way of getting Applicants to Quit. (And making themselves feel a bit superior)

If that doesn't work then they keep raising the bar or simply refusing to "Agree" on the protocol.

The guys on youtube call it a "Sham!"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kMX0d8Efzj8

They will never risk the Million (Or what's left of it)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tMrgr1yR3k0&feature=related"


He seems to be setting himself up to say he tried to be tested but the JREF wouldn't work with him. Which is what some have been predicting was his plan all along.

 

[MattC]

It would perhaps be beneficial to point these people towards the conversation dialogue between RemieV and Mr. Koenig concerning his paranormal claim.

~ Matt

 

[chillzero]

This thread should not be about The Professor. And please don't make me set another thread to moderated status for discussing his protocol outside the moderated thread fro doing so.

It seems to me this thread can be left to die, since the initial question has been answered repeatedly, and should TP continue to ignore it and flood the thread with the same questions over and over it may be closed.

 

[Azrael 5]

I agree Chilli.mayeb all posts regarding Dave Koneigs alleged psychosis can be posted in General Skepticism thread "Professor's paranormal proof.

 

[The Professor]

This thread should not be about The Professor. And please don't make me set another thread to moderated status for discussing his protocol outside the moderated thread fro doing so.

It seems to me this thread can be left to die, since the initial question has been answered repeatedly, and should TP continue to ignore it and flood the thread with the same questions over and over it may be closed.

Are you threatening to close this thread because I contacted the JREF last week and ASKED THE BIG QUESTION and received " WE'LL CALL YOU BACK " as an answer?

I'm STILL waiting for a return call .... Nothing so far.

The initial question has NOT been answered. Ask the JREF yourself.

I DID !

 

[Brian-M]

Are you threatening to close this thread because I contacted the JREF last week and ASKED THE BIG QUESTION and received " WE'LL CALL YOU BACK " as an answer?

Do you have a comprehension disability?
Chillzero is threatening to put the thread on moderated status if we keep talking about you instead of the million dollar prize, which is what this thread is supposed to be about.

The latest statement should be found here.

They seem to be a bit behind in posting last month's statement. Maybe they haven't received it yet, or possibly they haven't gotten around to scanning it in yet.

The statement ending August 31 shows:

$578,218.72 Cash Equivalents and Auction Rate Securities
$534,896.30 Investment Grade Fixed Income

Given the nature of these investments, the chances of the cash prize dropping significantly below $1,000,000.00 is very slim indeed.

I'm STILL waiting for a return call .... Nothing so far.

The initial question has NOT been answered. Ask the JREF yourself.

I DID !

If it's that important to you, call them again, or better yet, email them. Your call may have slipped their mind.

 

[The Professor]

Why do you think they are late?

Almost all of my friends have received statements during this crisis to update their information, since the investment companies see that many people are concerned.

I was concerned even Before the Crash as to the fluidity of the Challenge Money.

There is NO Million Dollar Challenge without the Million Dollars don't you agree?

It's a valid question.

 

[GzuzKryzt]

And you have received a valid answer.

 

[Wowbagger]

Professor: Is it really about the money? If you really did have paranormal powers, and the JREF test verified it - their Million Dollar prize would be the least of your rewards!

Imagine: Mainstream scientists all over the world taking your claims seriously!

Imagine: Obtaining a Nobel Prize for the most innovative and unexpected discovery in all of the entire history of science!

Imagine: The money to be made from booksales and lecture tours! Because you now hold the key to real powers, that everyone would love to hear about!

Makes the JREF Million look kinda pathetic, doesn't it?

 

[The Professor]

Professor: Is it really about the money? If you really did have paranormal powers, and the JREF test verified it - their Million Dollar prize would be the least of your rewards!

Imagine: Mainstream scientists all over the world taking your claims seriously!

Imagine: Obtaining a Nobel Prize for the most innovative and unexpected discovery in all of the entire history of science!

Imagine: The money to be made from booksales and lecture tours! Because you now hold the key to real powers, that everyone would love to hear about!

Makes the JREF Million look kinda pathetic, doesn't it?

You are correct ... The JREF MDC DOES look Pathetic

 

[The Professor]

Here's the Deal .... If the JREF MDC proves to have dropped to below the Million Dollars, can I expect an apology from you .... or will you languish in your ignorance?

Will you MAN UP, or just sluff it off?

I have only asked a question that all of you profess to know without exception.

http://jimclass.com/

 

[MattC]

Oh I'll freely apologize, I have no doubt about that. Will you do the same if it's found out that it does, in fact, have more than a million dollars in it?

~ Matt

 

[Seanrmr]

I to will put forward my apology. Then I will help donate to get it back up to the million. But first I need to see that happen. Will you do the same if it's found out that it does, in fact, have more than a million dollars in it?(stole the last question from post above)

 

[Azrael 5]

If you are so concerned why not go through the list of worldwide challenges you were given the link to some time ago,apply to all them and you will have more than one million.
You signed a contract when you applied for MDC,GUARANTEEING you on emilllion dollars.Should you win.There is little chance of you winnning so I don't know your problem.
By the time you create a protocol the stock market will be blooming.

 

[Ocelot]

Bonds folks, bonds. If the JREF had a million in bonds last month (in fact they had more than that as Startz kindly pointed out here http://www.randi.org/challenge/goldmansachs.pdf) then they have a million plus fixed interest this month. Either that or Goldman Sachs has gone belly up.

Either way the JREF has enough assets to cover the million outside of Goldman Sachs as Matt C kindly pointed out here

http://www.guidestar.org/pqShowGsReport.do?npoId=523196

Total Assets: 2,369,744

If somehow Goldman Sachs went under obliterating the prize fund and for some connected and therefore not entirely coincidental reason, the other assets were also unrecoverable and if...

(and this is a BIG IF)

...if after ten years of searching, a genuine paranormal claim finally managed to pass both the preliminary and the final test, then the JREF would still have to pay. As has also been pointed out by too many to mention, that's a legal obligation set out in the contract. As many here have mentioned, there are tens of thousands of supporters that would chip in rather then see the JREF go under. I've promised my $1,000 (though I think it's pretty safe) but some of these other supporters are not short of income. One or two could probably cover the whole million in one shot.

That the million would be paid is as near to a certainty as is reasonably possible.

Descartes advocated the universality of doubt. It will always be possible to apply hyperbolic doubt. When the cynic sees a statement showing the current balance of the account he may petulantly demand the next statement, and the next and the next. Just as the Professor has already done once. He may demand that Goldman Sachs undergoes a full audit at his whim or that the JREF diversify their investments. He may propose that their inevitable reluctance is a sign of nefarious motives. However in fact it is a sign that the request comes from a no-account non-entity with no greater right to be heard than my tea leaf reading granny.

This could be changed by just by passing the test. That is the true prize. Not the millions dollars but the fact that the winner could no longer be so easily dismissed. When the winner of the MDC points out that the value of the dollar has plummeted in recent months and a million now has a fraction of the buying power that it would have had when the challenge first offered it, people will actually listen. Respect, that's what the prize offers, not only is it something that can't be bought, it's something that certain applicants clearly desire.