Horribly Irresponsible Governor says Parents Should Have Choice about Vaccinations

dudalb said:
What this issue has done is remind me why my flirtation with Libertariansim was so brief.
It's just plain stupid.
And appeals to the anarchist mindset.
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I don't get the emphasis on libertarianism in this thread.

In my experience, and from what I've been reading, the vast majority of anti-vaxxers are leftists to far-leftists; mostly hippie/alt.med/conspiracy-theorist types. A smaller number are right-wing conspiracy-theory types objecting on religious grounds. I've seen very few, if any, libertarian objections to compulsory vaccination aside from a tiny, tiny handful of fringe whackos.
 
luchog said:
I don't get the emphasis on libertarianism in this thread.

In my experience, and from what I've been reading, the vast majority of anti-vaxxers are leftists to far-leftists; mostly hippie/alt.med/conspiracy-theorist types. A smaller number are right-wing conspiracy-theory types objecting on religious grounds. I've seen very few, if any, libertarian objections to compulsory vaccination aside from a tiny, tiny handful of fringe whackos.
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Pardon the cross post, but this was from a similar thread in US Politics:
maxpower1227 said:
Anti-vax has usually not been a particularly partisan issue, but it may be moving that way:
People who have children under age 18 are more likely to say vaccines should be up to parents to decide. But overall, in all of these demographics, over 50 percent say vaccines should be mandatory.

And that includes both parties. Clear majorities of Democrats and Republicans support mandatory vaccines, but the numbers have shifted. Back in 2009, 71 percent of Democrats and 71 percent of Republicans saw eye-to-eye on this.

Today, 76 percent of Democrats and 65 percent of Republicans agree. And if you’re curious about independents, only 65 of them believe in mandatory vaccines too.
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I have not looked up anything about this and only glanced at the linked source. If true, it would suggest that it had been largely non-political, but is becoming more so.

In my opinion, this would be a very, very bad thing. Again, if true.
 
theprestige said:
The first measles vaccine wasn't introduced until 1961, well after the start of the boom in in national and international travel networks.
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I suppose it is my claim so I should go find the numbers, but maybe you can recall the exclusivity of flying in the 60s and 70s without me having to do so. My first flight was rather young, but I know many people who didn't step on a plane until they were in their twenties. Currently, I don't know anyone over 10 who hasn't been on a plane.

In other words, extensive travel was possible in the sixties, but not nearly as common as it is today.

theprestige said:
Do you recall the repeated waves of measles pandemics that ravaged North America in the 1950s and 1960s? No? But there was no vaccine! How ever did people manage?
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I'll let ponderingturtle take this one:

ponderingturtle said:
There wasn't pandemics because measles was endemic. And a people managed by having a fair percentage of them dying and being crippled. Like Roald Dahl's daughter. But then people knew better than to make a big deal out of a few dead kids.
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theprestige said:
Why? Are you afraid they're going to give you measles?
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No, I'm afraid that their traveling will act as a vector for spreading diseases that had previously been eliminated from our population. A few sick people in LA has now spread to 14 states and counting. The virus is able to spread because it has found reservoirs of unvaccinated in which it can grow and travel. Reducing the travel of the unvaccinated may have prevented some of that quick spread. But, more likely, it would have just lead to more people being vaccinated and eliminated the outbreak all together. Much like the states where non-medical exceptions are much harder to get.

And I like this post even if I have little to add:

Giordano said:
Actually I do remember the endemics of measles that ravaged North America in the 1950s and 1960s. A huge number became sick, including my brother and sister. Luckily, only some of them became blind, or deaf, or sterile, or died. People managed by hoping that their kids would be infected in mid childhood, when the complications were serious, but a bit less dangerous than if infected as adults or babies. The people who suffered the most serious symptoms were buried, placed in special care facilities, or did the best they could with their handicaps.

Measles is one of the most infectious viruses known. There is no specific treatment once you are infected. It is estimated that measles killed 15.6 million people per year before the vaccine. It still killed 96,000 people world-wide in 2013 (the reduction is largely due to the availability of the vaccine in many places). So how did people manage? A lot of them died (I've been waiting to paraphrase that quote from Alien Resurrection for years...).
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luchog said:
I don't get the emphasis on libertarianism in this thread.
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Perhaps it's because Christie's remarks and those of Rand Paul seem to have at their heart libertarian philosophy (government shouldn't be able to make people do things they don't want to do) rather than crunchy liberal woo. Both have said their children are vaccinated so they've demonstrated their belief that vaccines are safe and efficacious. Their core objection seems to be to about government intrusiveness, which is a libertarian/ conservative bugbear.
 
theprestige said:
The first measles vaccine wasn't introduced until 1961, well after the start of the boom in in national and international travel networks.

Do you recall the repeated waves of measles pandemics that ravaged North America in the 1950s and 1960s? No? But there was no vaccine! How ever did people manage?
Why? Are you afraid they're going to give you measles?
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Many got sick some were crippled for life and some died.
 
Caper said:
I never get the flu shot. Should I be forced to?
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No.

The flu virus mutates much more quickly and we will never be able to eradicate the flu. If ever we discovered a vaccine that works against all flu (unlikely) then I could see it being required.

In contrast, we have declared measles eradicated in the US as recently as the last 15 years. If we had kept herd immunity up then we would not have had to worry about foreign measles spreading. Since we haven't, we now get to see how cool it was to live in the fifties, the good ole days we all seem to pine for.
 
Dr. Keith said:
No.

The flu virus mutates much more quickly and we will never be able to eradicate the flu. If ever we discovered a vaccine that works against all flu (unlikely) then I could see it being required.

In contrast, we have declared measles eradicated in the US as recently as the last 15 years. If we had kept herd immunity up then we would not have had to worry about foreign measles spreading. Since we haven't, we now get to see how cool it was to live in the fifties, the good ole days we all seem to pine for.
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Or the sixties. I know I got the measles, mumps and chicken pox in the sixties. But are we really coming anywhere near getting to see what is was like because of an outbreak of a few people?

ETA Really we should outlaw Disneyland because if it wasn't for Disney this probably would have been another uneventful measle year.
 
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tsig said:
Many got sick some were crippled for life and some died.
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Most people don't know this anymore. My wife asked, "What's the big deal about measles?" When I told her it can kill you, she was surprised. Therein lies the problem. We have so effectively controlled the disease for so long that its effects are no longer commonly known. And since most do not know anyone who has been crippled, blinded or killed by measles the assumption from ignorance has become that measles is not a big deal.
 
Spindrift said:
Most people don't know this anymore. My wife asked, "What's the big deal about measles?" When I told her it can kill you, she was surprised. Therein lies the problem. We have so effectively controlled the disease for so long that its effects are no longer commonly known. And since most do not know anyone who has been crippled, blinded or killed by measles the assumption from ignorance has become that measles is not a big deal.
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And people forget that the flu kills tens of thousands every year in the US. People are stupid.
 
I had measles a year or two before the vaccine became available. I don't remember being frightened. It was talked of as just being another of those childhood illnesses most people got, and it was a part of life. I didn't know anyone who didn't make a full recovery.

However, I remember one day as I was recovering, asking my mother something that was confusing me. She said, no, it's Thursday now, you lost a whole day were you were delirious. (I knew what "delirious" meant, aged about eight. I read early 20th century and Victorian children's novels.)

She must have been pretty worried, but she didn't let me see it.
 
Upchurch said:
Pardon the cross post, but this was from a similar thread in US Politics:

​
I have not looked up anything about this and only glanced at the linked source. If true, it would suggest that it had been largely non-political, but is becoming more so.

In my opinion, this would be a very, very bad thing. Again, if true.
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It wouldn't surprise me if the mainstream religious right is leaning more anti-vax; and doing so purely to demonstrate their opposition to the mainstream left. The most vehement anti-vaxers still seem to be the far-left, eg. the Greens.

ponderingturtle said:
Probably because those arguing against it here are presumed to be arguing from a libertarian position.
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Only because the leftists woos generally don't stick around nearly as long. At least here in my state, the anti-vax movement is composed predominantly of far-left trust-fund hippies and hipsters; the stereotypical "'Greener", who are also heavily into the alt.med thing. Doesn't help that one of the largest bastions of alt.med propaganda in the world is located just north of Seattle.
 
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eeyore1954 said:
Or the sixties. I know I got the measles, mumps and chicken pox in the sixties. But are we really coming anywhere near getting to see what is was like because of an outbreak of a few people?
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So far, not yet, because the uptake of vaccines is still high enough to limit the damage caused. Give the anti-vax trend another decade and a half at it's current rate; and we'll be seeing '50s level outbreaks, and the deaths and disabilities common at the time.
 
luchog said:
I don't get the emphasis on libertarianism in this thread.

In my experience, and from what I've been reading, the vast majority of anti-vaxxers are leftists to far-leftists; mostly hippie/alt.med/conspiracy-theorist types. A smaller number are right-wing conspiracy-theory types objecting on religious grounds. I've seen very few, if any, libertarian objections to compulsory vaccination aside from a tiny, tiny handful of fringe whackos.
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I have to disagree;quite a few libertarians are opposed to compulsory vaccination. That is why Rand Paul was playing to them with this comments.
But I agree there is plenty of Anti Vax nonsense on both sides of the political spectrum.
 
Rolfe said:
I had measles a year or two before the vaccine became available. I don't remember being frightened. It was talked of as just being another of those childhood illnesses most people got, and it was a part of life. I didn't know anyone who didn't make a full recovery.

However, I remember one day as I was recovering, asking my mother something that was confusing me. She said, no, it's Thursday now, you lost a whole day were you were delirious. (I knew what "delirious" meant, aged about eight. I read early 20th century and Victorian children's novels.)

She must have been pretty worried, but she didn't let me see it.
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I think this was definitely part of the culture back then- when one can't do anything about a dangerous threat, one often tries to minimize the threat in one's own thoughts and tries to avoid scaring other people. Particularly one's children.
 
I was dazed by the possibility vaccine thing was going to become a GOP talking point or litmus test within the GOP primary. I am relieved to see that most of them who have spoken have come out on the responsible side -- Ben Carson, Ted Cruz, Rick Perry, Bobby Jindal.

Good for them.

Of course Pat Robertson came out against vaccines... and floridation of drinking water. And, if you want to get really stupid, Donald Trump is claiming that he's seen children with autism as a result of vaccines. I think those investigators he sent to Hawaii to find Obama's real birthplace told him about it.
 
Giordano said:
I think this was definitely part of the culture back then- when one can't do anything about a dangerous threat, one often tries to minimize the threat in one's own thoughts and tries to avoid scaring other people. Particularly one's children.
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I think there's also the element of society 'hiding' the effects as a rule by segregating the mentally physically disabled.

My godmother's son (godbrother?) was born in 1969 after a gestational exposure to german measles.

He was mentally delayed and almost entirely deaf, so went to a school for 'those people' and the rest of the population was happily oblivious to the very existence of this slice of the nation affected by viral contagion.
 
dudalb said:
I have to disagree;quite a few libertarians are opposed to compulsory vaccination. That is why Rand Paul was playing to them with this comments.
But I agree there is plenty of Anti Vax nonsense on both sides of the political spectrum.
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To the point where whenever I hear right-wing-left-wing fingerpointing I think the speaker is spiralling into partisanship.

The premise of antivax seems to be most strongly associated with two factors:
  • mistrust of scientists as people - which leads to the belief that despite claims of a scientific consensus, vaccination is actually net harmful, and they know this because they "Googled It"
  • mistrust of government - which leads to the belief that it doesn't matter whether vaccination is harmful or not, mandated vaccination is Big Brother and should be fought at every turn; the scientific facts are literally irrelevant because individual choice overrules them
 
blutoski said:
  • mistrust of government - which leads to the belief that it doesn't matter whether vaccination is harmful or not, mandated vaccination is Big Brother and should be fought at every turn; the scientific facts are literally irrelevant because individual choice overrules them
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Regarding this 2nd point... this is neither right wing nor left wing from what I can tell... my most left-wing friends are card carrying communists and Marxism is all about eliminating government and trusting the People to make rational informed decisions.
 
blutoski said:
I think there's also the element of society 'hiding' the effects as a rule by segregating the mentally physically disabled.

My godmother's son (godbrother?) was born in 1969 after a gestational exposure to german measles.

He was mentally delayed and almost entirely deaf, so went to a school for 'those people' and the rest of the population was happily oblivious to the very existence of this slice of the nation affected by viral contagion.
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My mother retired after over 20 years working at a state school for the "mentally retarded". Many of those adult men she worked with were damaged by the illnesses of their generations, rubella during pregnancy or childhood measles infection.

The premise of antivax seems to be most strongly associated with two factors:
mistrust of scientists as people - which leads to the belief that despite claims of a scientific consensus, vaccination is actually net harmful, and they know this because they "Googled It"
mistrust of government - which leads to the belief that it doesn't matter whether vaccination is harmful or not, mandated vaccination is Big Brother and should be fought at every turn; the scientific facts are literally irrelevant because individual choice overrules them
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I wonder how much is injection phobia. They pull out the sharp and make your child cry and scream and I confess to a phobic level issue with needles myself (in my case its vomiting/ freaking out/ running away when your kids get vaccinated level of phobia). If they could all be aerosloized, how much would that change the anti-vax movement I wonder. Maybe not at all but its a thought.
 
luchog said:
It wouldn't surprise me if the mainstream religious right is leaning more anti-vax; and doing so purely to demonstrate their opposition to the mainstream left. The most vehement anti-vaxers still seem to be the far-left, eg. the Greens.



Only because the leftists woos generally don't stick around nearly as long. At least here in my state, the anti-vax movement is composed predominantly of far-left trust-fund hippies and hipsters; the stereotypical "'Greener", who are also heavily into the alt.med thing. Doesn't help that one of the largest bastions of alt.med propaganda in the world is located just north of Seattle.
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There is that stereotype of antivax woo, though it does not seem to be held true by recent percentages of politicians support of or refusal of universal vaccination.
 
blutoski said:
To the point where whenever I hear right-wing-left-wing fingerpointing I think the speaker is spiralling into partisanship.

The premise of antivax seems to be most strongly associated with two factors:
  • mistrust of scientists as people - which leads to the belief that despite claims of a scientific consensus, vaccination is actually net harmful, and they know this because they "Googled It"
  • mistrust of government - which leads to the belief that it doesn't matter whether vaccination is harmful or not, mandated vaccination is Big Brother and should be fought at every turn; the scientific facts are literally irrelevant because individual choice overrules them
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I would add mistrust of pharmaceutical companies to that list. The history of hiding the dangers and overselling the effectiveness of some of their products, and especially the sense that they try to create a market for whatever drugs they come up with.

I think that mistrust is perfectly justified. When it comes to vaccines, though, you have to weigh that mistrust against the recommendations from all the major government and non-government organizations and medical groups.

Maybe if we clamped back down on pharmaceutical advertising it would help? Maybe that distrust would lessen if people weren't so jaded from hearing commercials encouraging you to "talk to your doctor" about yet another new condition you've never heard of but can now treat with new prescription Xjanzyxib or whatever, while some cheerful voice drones out a long list of possible side effects.

Belz... said:
Doctor Rand Paul.
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That's why I don't like it when I hear people tell anti-vaxxers they should listen to their doctor instead of some website or something. It's not all that hard for them to find an individual doctor who's happy to go along with them.
 
Rand Paul Is Linked to Doctors’ Group That Supports Vaccination Challenges

His attempt to push back against the perception that he puts his libertarian politics ahead of his better medical judgment reflected the difficult balance the senator is trying to strike: To appeal to the kind of voters he needs for a likely White House bid next year — those who do not typically vote Republican — he cannot afford to promote views that seem out of the mainstream.

But Mr. Paul and the physicians’ association share a libertarian philosophy and deep skepticism about government involvement in medical care that often plays out in public health debates.
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Let's face it: doctors range enormously in terms of how good they are.

You know the old joke as to what do you call the person who graduated at the bottom of their medical school class? Doctor.

But that said, getting into medical school is very difficult academically (although it doesn't mean that you are sane) and even some doctors that I've met that have odd religious or political views have been excellent doctors. But I've seen quite a range in skill among all doctors, from incredibly good to just getting by. Luckily, most I've met have been very hesitate to speak outside their specialty; Rand Paul appears to be an exception to this rule at least. As to his sanity...
 
iknownothing said:
Maybe if we clamped back down on pharmaceutical advertising it would help? Maybe that distrust would lessen if people weren't so jaded from hearing commercials encouraging you to "talk to your doctor" about yet another new condition you've never heard of but can now treat with new prescription Xjanzyxib or whatever, while some cheerful voice drones out a long list of possible side effects.
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As someone from the U.K. I found those kinds of ads on U.S. T.V. both amusing and alarming. We tend not to get those
 
angrysoba said:
Dr Paul is right, but it has nothing to do with the vaccines.
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Or it might... there are genuinely people injured by vaccines, that can't be denied.

However, the value proposition is net positive for all recommended vaccines (which is what makes them recommended): the population is more likely to be harmed without them than with them.
 
You know one major group that has not been called out on this issue is all the school boards around the US.

These morons are suspending and even expelling kids for bringing toy guns to school.
Biting a pop tart into the shape of a gun, or "threatening" to make a kid disappear with the one true ring. NONE of which could possibly cause ANY harm to anyone.

Yet they are completely silent in allowing these kids who CAN and DO actually cause harm to others.
 
Magyar said:
You know one major group that has not been called out on this issue is all the school boards around the US.

These morons are suspending and even expelling kids for bringing toy guns to school.
Biting a pop tart into the shape of a gun, or "threatening" to make a kid disappear with the one true ring. NONE of which could possibly cause ANY harm to anyone.

Yet they are completely silent in allowing these kids who CAN and DO actually cause harm to others.
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I think I can explain that.

My sister is a good example: back when she was antivax she did not believe that vaccines prevent illness. Because of that, she did not see unvaccinated kids as any health risk to the student body at all.

In fact: if she had her way, all the teachers, school board members, doctors and scientists who advocated vaccination in the past would be in jail, convicted and sentenced for assault and battery at the very least - but preferably conspiracy to commit murder.
 
blutoski said:
I think I can explain that.

My sister is a good example: back when she was antivax she did not believe that vaccines prevent illness. Because of that, she did not see unvaccinated kids as any health risk to the student body at all.

In fact: if she had her way, all the teachers, school board members, doctors and scientists who advocated vaccination in the past would be in jail, convicted and sentenced for assault and battery at the very least - but preferably conspiracy to commit murder.
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They can have my vaccines when they pry them from my cold, dead...

Oh, yeah, right. I suppose that would be the end result.
 
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