Hillary's "De Facto Gun Ban" on Import of U.S. M1 & M1 Carbines From S. Korea

[Cicero]

Hillary's "De Facto Gun Ban" on Import of U.S. M1 & M1 Carbines From S. Korea

"According to the ATF Guidebook on Firearms Importation, it would normally be legal to import the M1s because they are more than 50 years old, meaning they qualify as "curios or relics." But because the guns were given to South Korea by the U.S. government, they fall under a special category that requires permission from the State Department before any sale.

"The Obama administration approved the sale of the American-made rifles last year. But it reversed course and banned the sale in March – a decision that went largely unnoticed at the time but that is now sparking opposition from gun rights advocates.

A State Department spokesman said the administration's decision was based on concerns that the guns could fall into the wrong hands.

Asked why the M1s pose a threat, the State Department spokesman referred questions to the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives. ATF representatives said they would look into the question Monday afternoon, but on Wednesday they referred questions to the Justice Department. DOJ spokesman Dean Boyd referred questions back to the State Department."

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/201...reverses-course-forbids-sale-antique-m-rifles

 

[Bikewer]

Odd, since both Garands and M1 carbines were sold through the US government for years.

 

[dudalb]

Yeah, Garand and MI Carbines are easily and legally available in most parts of the US. I have a Garand myself, fun gun to shoot.

 

[fuelair]

I 'spects that right now that was a very poorly thought out choice that will be used against Dems in the near future (already has been in some circles - I first heard hints three or so months ago - though without the Sout Korea detail;s - just the sale was off and a lot of orgs that get rifles for training that way weren't happy - none of them the rad right - though, logically, somewhat conservative.

 

[Howie Felterbush]

You can still get an M1 or other military rifle through the Civilian Marksmanship Program.

 

[R.Mackey]

Oh Look, It's This Thread Again

This story has actually been developing for months. The only thing that is "news" is that Fox News saw fit to run a piece on it, and mere hours afterward practically every single gun discussion forum on the 'Net has been inundated with duplicates. Over at Arfcom they're locking these threads on sight, and there is talk of banning those who bring it up yet again.

The issue is a legal one. Importing firearms is a complicated business. There have been many, many blocks over the years -- Chinese SKS's, for instance. This is no different.

A lot of people assume these firearms -- M1 Garand battle rifles and eponymous M1 Carbines, both relics of WWII and the Korean War -- could be simply sent to the Civilian Marksmanship Program (CMP) and sold to US Citizens as surplus. This is incorrect. The CMP, which evolved from the older Division of Civilian Marksmanship, is a government chartered non-profit organization. According to the terms of its charter it can only accept and resell rifles passed to it by the United States Army. It cannot buy rifles, and it cannot import rifles. There is no legal mechanism for this to occur.

The Korean government is not returning these rifles to the United States. Instead, it intends to sell them. This is what makes these rifles different than the Greek returns or the Turkish or the Danish rifles that CMP has been cleaning up and passing on. If Korea intends to sell these rifles, they need to get an importer, and this import requires US State Department approval.

Should the State Department approve this? Probably. But that's a different question entirely, and it would depend on the details. One of the details State Department is evidently fussing about is that the M1 Carbines can accept "large magazines" (traditionally, up to 30-round magazines were used), although last time I checked the national ban on such things sunset years ago. The M1 Garand has an eight-round capacity and it's hard to see what the objection would be.

Fortunately, you can still get your own M1 Garand from the CMP. They have at least two years worth of rifles at current rate of sales. (M1 Carbines, alas, are all gone -- CMP ran out of them last month, and no new sources are known.) They're a real bargain, too.



This is my M1 Carbine, purchased earlier this year. Luckily for all of you, I live in California, meaning I am limited to ten-round magazines, and somehow this and only this keeps everyone totally safe. It's a pity these are running out -- it's a remarkable small rifle, good to about 300 meters, light and handy and reliable.

And here is my M1 Garand, as it appeared in the box from CMP.

For those who don't know, the M1 Garand is about 44 inches long and weighs about 10.5 pounds loaded. It is therefore extremely undesirable from a criminal perspective, and I've never even heard of one being used to commit a robbery or an assault. On the other hand, it is a remarkably good high-powered rifle for marksmanship -- a Rifleman's rifle. Effective range in capable hands is 600 to 1000 meters.

The CMP M1 Garand is also literally the best deal in town, rifle-wise. A service grade Garand like mine is about $600 shipped. Mine required no repairs or modification, and shoots 2 MOA or better consistently with factory ammunition.

If you want your own CMP M1 Garand, there are a couple of extra requirements you have to fulfill:

1. Must be a US Citizen and legal to purchase firearms (they check!)
2. Must be a member of a shooting club
3. Must complete a supervised course on marksmanship (there are waivers for military service etc.)​

To meet the latter two requirements, I heartily recommend the Appleseed rifle marksmanship course, which I instruct with about 1100 other people nationwide -- after the class we'll give you a written certificate of completion good for the CMP. You can also join the RWVA for $20 to meet the club membership requirement if needed.

Shooting stuff is fun. Shooting stuff well is more fun. Shooting stuff well with a piece of American history is great fun.

 

[Crossbow]

Ugh!

This just sounds like one of those pesky paperwork knots that sometimes occur when one nation gives another nation something of value.

Then later, if the recieving nation tries to make money from the product that was provided, then sometimes the giving nation gets a bit miffed because often there are clauses in the agreement which state something like:

Before the recipient nation can sell the goods it has recieved, the recipient nation shall offer to return them to the giving nation first.
And only if the giving nation refuses to accept the return, then the recipient nation can sell the goods in question as it sees fit.

If I recall, the same sort of thing occurs with the Oscar Awards because the academy does not want the awards to start showing up in pawn shops and such.

 

[Cicero]

Or it sounds like the tired lame excuses South Korea says were given to them by the U.S.

"The problems the U.S. government cited were somewhat ambiguous, said an official at the Ministry of National Defense on condition of anonymity.

“The U.S. insisted that imports of the aging rifles could cause problems such as firearm accidents. It was also worried the weapons could be smuggled to terrorists, gangs or other people with bad intentions,” the official told The Korea Times."

 

[lomiller]

A lot of people assume these firearms -- M1 Garand battle rifles and eponymous M1 Carbines, both relics of WWII and the Korean War -- could be simply sent to the Civilian Marksmanship Program (CMP) and sold to US Citizens as surplus. This is incorrect. The CMP, which evolved from the older Division of Civilian Marksmanship, is a government chartered non-profit organization. According to the terms of its charter it can only accept and resell rifles passed to it by the United States Army. It cannot buy rifles, and it cannot import rifles. There is no legal mechanism for this to occur.

The Korean government is not returning these rifles to the United States. Instead, it intends to sell them. This is what makes these rifles different than the Greek returns or the Turkish or the Danish rifles that CMP has been cleaning up and passing on. If Korea intends to sell these rifles, they need to get an importer, and this import requires US State Department approval.

Nice explanation

So my question is why Cicero thinks it appropriate for foreign government to borrow something from the American people then try to sell it back to them at a profit.

 

[Cicero]

Nice explanation

So my question is why Cicero thinks it appropriate for foreign government to borrow something from the American people then try to sell it back to them at a profit.

That is not the reason the Obama Administration has given for reneging on the deal.

R. Mackey didn't mention the German M1 Carbines that the CMP got a hold of.

 

[lomiller]

That is not the reason the Obama Administration has given

I’m not asking what Obama’s answer to that question is, I’m asking *you*.

 

[Cicero]

The issue is a legal one. Importing firearms is a complicated business. There have been many, many blocks over the years -- Chinese SKS's, for instance. This is no different.

The Obama Administration has offered no such explanation.

A lot of people assume these firearms -- M1 Garand battle rifles and eponymous M1 Carbines, both relics of WWII and the Korean War -- could be simply sent to the Civilian Marksmanship Program (CMP) and sold to US Citizens as surplus. This is incorrect. The CMP, which evolved from the older Division of Civilian Marksmanship, is a government chartered non-profit organization. According to the terms of its charter it can only accept and resell rifles passed to it by the United States Army. It cannot buy rifles, and it cannot import rifles. There is no legal mechanism for this to occur.

The CMP holds auctions for the best M1 Carbines.

The Korean government is not returning these rifles to the United States. Instead, it intends to sell them. This is what makes these rifles different than the Greek returns or the Turkish or the Danish rifles that CMP has been cleaning up and passing on. If Korea intends to sell these rifles, they need to get an importer, and this import requires US State Department approval.

And the Obama Administration was not aware of the import regulations when it OK'd the deal?

Should the State Department approve this? Probably. But that's a different question entirely, and it would depend on the details. One of the details State Department is evidently fussing about is that the M1 Carbines can accept "large magazines" (traditionally, up to 30-round magazines were used), although last time I checked the national ban on such things sunset years ago. The M1 Garand has an eight-round capacity and it's hard to see what the objection would be.

And yet the CMP sells M1 Carbines.

Fortunately, you can still get your own M1 Garand from the CMP. They have at least two years worth of rifles at current rate of sales. (M1 Carbines, alas, are all gone -- CMP ran out of them last month, and no new sources are known.) They're a real bargain, too

.

Wrong. CMP is still selling Bavarian M1 Carbines.

If you want your own CMP M1 Garand, there are a couple of extra requirements you have to fulfill:

1. Must be a US Citizen and legal to purchase firearms (they check!)
2. Must be a member of a shooting club
3. Must complete a supervised course on marksmanship (there are waivers for military service etc.)​

Or you could just purchase one from many other sources without these restrictions and actually see and examine the rifle you are purchasing instead of relying on the luck of the draw.

 

[Cicero]

I’m not asking what Obama’s answer to that question is, I’m asking *you*.

The American people do not get free M1 rifles and M1 Carbines from the CMP. I doubt those interested in getting another source for these firearms care whether South Korea makes money on the deal or not. If they could even bypass the CMP, so much the better.

 

[lomiller]

The American people do not get free M1 rifles and M1 Carbines from the CMP.

The CMP is “government chartered non-profit organization”.

No one is suggesting the rifles be given away, but you seem to think foreign governments should be able to borrow things from the US then sell them back to the American people for a profit, and I’d like to know why you feel that way.

 

[R.Mackey]

The Obama Administration has offered no such explanation.

The title of your post is "Hillary's 'De Facto Gun Ban' ..." when, in fact, it is no such thing. Neither M1 Garands nor M1 Carbines are banned. They are readily available for purchase. Indeed, were this shipment to be approved, it is not clear the market price would even go down.

Your post title is, therefore, hyberbolic to the point of uselessness.

The CMP holds auctions for the best M1 Carbines.

Those are all that are left at this point. The last Rack Grade was sold in August. Same for the Bavarians. See the CMP Forums.

And the Obama Administration was not aware of the import regulations when it OK'd the deal?

Perhaps not. It happens.

And yet the CMP sells M1 Carbines.

Sold. Yes.

Wrong. CMP is still selling Bavarian M1 Carbines.

All gone.

Or you could just purchase one from many other sources without these restrictions and actually see and examine the rifle you are purchasing instead of relying on the luck of the draw.

Correct. It's a free market. The CMP is just one source. However, as my experience demonstrates, it's well worth considering. If you can find a fully functional M1 Garand, ready to shoot out of the box, capable of 2 MOA groups for under $600, buy it.

P.S.: If you demand to inspect your individual rifle rather than rely on a generous return policy, CMP operates two showrooms that will satisfy your needs.

 

[Cicero]

The CMP is “government chartered non-profit organization”.

So what?

"All revenue not needed to fund current operations is deposited into a permanent endowment to fund future programs and operations once all rifles have been sold." CMP

Why not fund the S. Korean imports?

No one is suggesting the rifles be given away, but you seem to think foreign governments should be able to borrow things from the US then sell them back to the American people for a profit, and I’d like to know why you feel that way.

The 1986 NFA made it illegal for countries to export machine guns/ submachine guns to the U.S. that were "borrowed" from the U.S. Should that law be overturned so we can get these weapons back and then sell them legally to Americans who pay the $200 tax per weapon?

 

[lomiller]

The 1986 NFA made it illegal for countries to export machine guns/ submachine guns to the U.S. that were "borrowed" from the U.S.

We are not discussing either machine guns or sub-machine guns. If we were however, the type of transaction you are asking for would be illegal. So aside from being irrelevant it neither supports your argument or answered the question you have been asked.

 

[R.Mackey]

So what?

"All revenue not needed to fund current operations is deposited into a permanent endowment to fund future programs and operations once all rifles have been sold." CMP

Why not fund the S. Korean imports?

This gets dumber and dumber. The value of the Korean stockpile is somewhere in the $50 to $100 million range. CMP doesn't have that kind of cash. Even if they did, there is no legal mechanism for them to buy or import rifles.

CMP's surplus is used to sponsor shooting events, such as Camp Perry and John C. Garand rifle matches. They also work with youth programs. There's no way on earth they could tackle anything this big, and no reason why they should. It's not their problem.

Were the South Korean government to agree to simply return the rifles rather than try to sell them (it's a fair amount of money, after all...) they might wind up in CMP hands. The Greek government, for instance, returned a vast supply of M2 ball ammunition earlier this year that is still being sold by the CMP. And this occurred during, ahem, the Obama administration.

I hope these rifles do find their way back here. But the legal situation is complicated. If you want to blame someone, start by blaming the folks who broke the original lending agreement.

 

[Newtons Bit]

What's actually going on here? Did the State Department ban the firearms from being imported to the US by anyone, or did it just prohibit a specific government entity from importing them?

 

[R.Mackey]

What's actually going on here? Did the State Department ban the firearms from being imported to the US by anyone, or did it just prohibit a specific government entity from importing them?

Neither. State Department provisionally okayed a single large shipment from a foreign power, then later reversed that decision based on complexities arising from old agreements about those same rifles. Nothing has been banned or prohibited. It's a negotiation in progress, amplified out of proportion by psychos desperate to paint the Obama Administration as gun-grabbers.

 

[The Central Scrutinizer]

I 'spects that right now that was a very poorly thought out choice that will be used against Dems in the near future (already has been in some circles - I first heard hints three or so months ago - though without the Sout Korea detail;s - just the sale was off and a lot of orgs that get rifles for training that way weren't happy - none of them the rad right - though, logically, somewhat conservative.

The simpletons who are upset by this wouldn't have voted for Obama anyhow, so the point is moot.

 

[Newtons Bit]

Neither. State Department provisionally okayed a single large shipment from a foreign power, then later reversed that decision based on complexities arising from old agreements about those same rifles. Nothing has been banned or prohibited. It's a negotiation in progress, amplified out of proportion by psychos desperate to paint the Obama Administration as gun-grabbers.

Do you have any other sources about the story? From what I'm reading in the OP link, the administration spokesman says the block is based on safety concerns. The complexities of the old agreement just appears to be the legal basis for the block.

A State Department spokesman said the administration's decision was based on concerns that the guns could fall into the wrong hands.

So, do you have another source of information that contradicts the FOX story?

 

[Cicero]

R.Mackey;6295295]The title of your post is "Hillary's 'De Facto Gun Ban' ..." when, in fact, it is no such thing. Neither M1 Garands nor M1 Carbines are banned. They are readily available for purchase. Indeed, were this shipment to be approved, it is not clear the market price would even go down.

The ball is in Hillary's court to allow the sale. As of now, she isn't interested in making this happen even if the South Korean government was giving them away to the U.S. So yes, Hillary is indeed banning the importation of American manufactured USGI WWII firearms.

How could the prices not go down? Is there more demand than there is supply? There must be since there are so many fake/replica USGI parts for these weapons.

Those are all that are left at this point. The last Rack Grade was sold in August. Same for the Bavarians. See the CMP Forums.

AT this point? How would an additional 86,000 USGI M1 rifles and Carbines available to the U.S. market not affect prices?

Perhaps not. It happens.

Why the mystery?

Correct. It's a free market. The CMP is just one source. However, as my experience demonstrates, it's well worth considering. If you can find a fully functional M1 Garand, ready to shoot out of the box, capable of 2 MOA groups for under $600, buy it.

Are you in favor of other authorized sources for imported examples of USGI WWII/Korea firearms?

P.S.: If you demand to inspect your individual rifle rather than rely on a generous return policy, CMP operates two showrooms that will satisfy your needs.

Those interested in them who live in the West and Southwest would be spending more on airfare than on the firearm. Why not provide pics and info on examples for sale on the internet for perspective customers in the same way sellers on gunbroker/auctionarms/Strurmgewehr.com/Subguns.com do?

South Store: 3016 Red Morris Parkway, Anniston, AL
North store: Port Clinton, Ohio at Camp Perry, Bldg 2500

 

[Grizzly Adams]

nevermind

 

[R.Mackey]

Do you have any other sources about the story? From what I'm reading in the OP link, the administration spokesman says the block is based on safety concerns. The complexities of the old agreement just appears to be the legal basis for the block.

There is evidence that it is not a safety concern that is actually holding up the sale. The reason I brought up the CMP above is because, while this negotiation has been going on, the US has accepted and has sold other, very large shipments of the exact same rifles, where those rifles have originated from Greece, Denmark, Italy, and Turkey. Therefore, there is no coherent government policy position against these rifles on safety grounds. The only difference between the Korean rifles and the Greek rifles is that the Greek rifles were returned, whereas Korea is trying to sell theirs. No other differences.

As evidence, above, I have one of each rifle. Received March and May of this year, respectively. Concrete evidence.

My interpretation of what is going on is the following: State Department is stalling. One good way to stall is to refer the matter to the BATF, which they have done. In order to do that they have to make some kind of safety excuse. I believe that is why the State Department spokesperson made the referenced claim.

 

[Cicero]

This gets dumber and dumber. The value of the Korean stockpile is somewhere in the $50 to $100 million range. CMP doesn't have that kind of cash. Even if they did, there is no legal mechanism for them to buy or import rifles.

How much money does the CMP have? Hey, the CMP is not the only game in town.

CMP's surplus is used to sponsor shooting events, such as Camp Perry and John C. Garand rifle matches. They also work with youth programs. There's no way on earth they could tackle anything this big, and no reason why they should. It's not their problem.

Then this would definitely be a proposition for some other entity.

Were the South Korean government to agree to simply return the rifles rather than try to sell them (it's a fair amount of money, after all...) they might wind up in CMP hands. The Greek government, for instance, returned a vast supply of M2 ball ammunition earlier this year that is still being sold by the CMP. And this occurred during, ahem, the Obama administration.

Might? Whom do you suppose would stop this transaction?

I hope these rifles do find their way back here. But the legal situation is complicated. If you want to blame someone, start by blaming the folks who broke the original lending agreement.

It is not that complicated. A POTUS who managed to get healthcare through the Congress can certainly manage to make this happen.

 

[R.Mackey]

The ball is in Hillary's court to allow the sale. As of now, she isn't interested in making this happen even if the South Korean government was giving them away to the U.S. So yes, Hillary is indeed banning the importation of American manufactured USGI WWII firearms.

It's not a ban. It's about money. You, the consumer, have EASY ACCESS and CLEAR LEGAL ABILITY to acquire either rifle, today.

How could the prices not go down? Is there more demand than there is supply? There must be since there are so many fake/replica USGI parts for these weapons.

By that logic, street prices on Carbines should have shot up since the CMP ran out. They haven't.

AT this point? How would an additional 86,000 USGI M1 rifles and Carbines available to the U.S. market not affect prices?

The number I heard is closer to 260,000. Not sure of the split. But understand they'll try to keep the price as high as possible. Not all commodities follow elastic rules of supply and demand... if you ever find a girlfriend and go shopping for a diamond, for instance, you'll experience this.

Why the mystery?

Stalling tactic. Basic diplomacy.

Are you in favor of other authorized sources for imported examples of USGI WWII/Korea firearms?

You can buy your rifle from whomever you want. It's a free country. I got my M1917 from a private dealer, not the CMP. But the CMP example is relevant here because it proves the US Government is accepting these rifles from other countries, and passing them on to consumers. Just not the specific shipment from Korea.

Those interested in them who live in the West and Southwest would be spending more on airfare than on the firearm. Why not provide pics and info on examples for sale on the internet for perspective customers in the same way sellers on gunbroker/auctionarms/Strurmgewehr.com/Subguns.com do?

South Store: 3016 Red Morris Parkway, Anniston, AL
North store: Port Clinton, Ohio at Camp Perry, Bldg 2500

Heck, why not bitch that the CMP won't go door to door? I don't understand what your problem is. Buy from whom you like. Just don't complain to me if you pay a lot more for a beat-to-heck racker. Caveat emptor.

 

[lomiller]

There is evidence that it is not a safety concern that is actually holding up the sale. The reason I brought up the CMP above is because, while this negotiation has been going on, the US has accepted and has sold other, very large shipments of the exact same rifles, where those rifles have originated from Greece, Denmark, Italy, and Turkey. Therefore, there is no coherent government policy position against these rifles on safety grounds. The only difference between the Korean rifles and the Greek rifles is that the Greek rifles were returned, whereas Korea is trying to sell theirs. No other differences.

As evidence, above, I have one of each rifle. Received March and May of this year, respectively. Concrete evidence.

My interpretation of what is going on is the following: State Department is stalling. One good way to stall is to refer the matter to the BATF, which they have done. In order to do that they have to make some kind of safety excuse. I believe that is why the State Department spokesperson made the referenced claim.

If the CMP can’t legally buy and distribute the rifles, then who will? To me not knowing would seem to be a very legitimate safety concern.


BTW Ciciro has yes to answer my question as to why he thinks foreign governments should be allowed to sell Americans their own property back to them.

 

[Cicero]

It's not a ban. It's about money. You, the consumer, have EASY ACCESS and CLEAR LEGAL ABILITY to acquire either rifle, today.

People had easy access to "assault rifles" after the 1994 AWB.

By that logic, street prices on Carbines should have shot up since the CMP ran out. They haven't.

Ah, you said the CMP ran out two days ago. We are not talking about heroine. Original WWII USGI optioned M1 Carbines sell for over $1K. That isn't what the CMP has been selling for some time.

The number I heard is closer to 260,000. Not sure of the split. But understand they'll try to keep the price as high as possible. Not all commodities follow elastic rules of supply and demand... if you ever find a girlfriend and go shopping for a diamond, for instance, you'll experience this

Sounds as if you fell for the De Beers blarney that diamonds are rare. You should stick to cubic zirconium. Would you even recognize the difference?

Stalling tactic. Basic diplomacy

.

Where do you get this stuff?

You can buy your rifle from whomever you want. It's a free country. I got my M1917 from a private dealer, not the CMP. But the CMP example is relevant here because it proves the US Government is accepting these rifles from other countries, and passing them on to consumers. Just not the specific shipment from Korea.

You mean selling them to consumers.

Heck, why not bitch that the CMP won't go door to door? I don't understand what your problem is. Buy from whom you like. Just don't complain to me if you pay a lot more for a beat-to-heck racker. Caveat emptor.

Why would anyone want to purchase a "beat-to-heck racker" from the CMP or anyone else for $500?

 

[lomiller]

Sounds as if you fell for the De Beers blarney that diamonds are rare.

It sounds more like he fell for the “if you love me, money shouldn’t matter” racket.


BTW you have yet to answer my question. Why do you feel it’s appropriate for foreign governments to make a profit be selling Americans items that the US governments lent to them?

 

[R.Mackey]

If the CMP can’t legally buy and distribute the rifles, then who will? To me not knowing would seem to be a very legitimate safety concern.

I imagine that's one of the details being negotiated. There are import companies like Century Arms and Blue Sky that have handled these things in the past. I've been unable to find who if anyone is mentioned in the application. The real question would be one of liability if, for instance, someone blows up an improperly headspaced rifle assembled from mixed parts.

BTW Ciciro has yes to answer my question as to why he thinks foreign governments should be allowed to sell Americans their own property back to them.

Yes, I noticed that. He seems eager to argue but reluctant to discuss.

---

People had easy access to "assault rifles" after the 1994 AWB.

Bait and switch. The AWB was a BAN. Specific manufacturers, types, and models were prohibited. This has not happened here. There is no ban on M1 Garands or M1 Carbines.

Ah, you said the CMP ran out two days ago. We are not talking about heroine. Original WWII USGI optioned M1 Carbines sell for over $1K. That isn't what the CMP has been selling for some time.

"Original WWII USGI optioned M1 Carbines??" You really have no idea what you're talking about, do you? Price of a Carbine is dependent on manufacturer, unusual features, and condition, and is all over the map. My Carbine is "Original, WWII, USGI, and Optioned" and is worth considerably less than $1K. And it came straight from CMP.

Sounds as if you fell for the De Beers blarney that diamonds are rare. You should stick to cubic zirconium. Would you even recognize the difference?

Reading comprehension is not your strong suit. I know they aren't rare. Yet they remain expensive. You need more than a crash course in Reganomics to be able to predict commodity prices.

Why would anyone want to purchase a "beat-to-heck racker" from the CMP or anyone else for $500?

Again, reading comprehension is not your strong suit. Try again.

 

[Cicero]

BTW Ciciro has yes to answer my question as to why he thinks foreign governments should be allowed to sell Americans their own property back to them.

You are assuming facts not in evidence. These South Korean M1/Carbines may in fact be FMS (Foreign Military Sales program) and not MAP (Military Assistance Program). In which case, they would not be selling Americans their own property.

 

[Cicero]

There is no ban on M1 Garands or M1 Carbines.

Then I imagine the Obama Administration would have no reason to ban the South Korean examples.

"Original WWII USGI optioned M1 Carbines??" You really have no idea what you're talking about, do you? Price of a Carbine is dependent on manufacturer, unusual features, and condition, and is all over the map. My Carbine is "Original, WWII, USGI, and Optioned" and is worth considerably less than $1K. And it came straight from CMP.

What are you babbling about? When the CMP gets a nice condition "rare" example such as an Un-Quality M1 Carbine they auction it off. One went for over $4,000. Like all firearm collecting, condition trumps everything outside of some proven special provenance

Unusual features? Like what? An added on Phased-plasma pulse rifle in 40-watt range? The Bavarian messed-up M1 Carbines are not valuable.

And you paid considerably less than $1K to the CMP. Does your carbine have importer markings? Who is the manufacturer? What is the condition of the barrel and stock? If it was USGI WWII, it would not have the type three barrel band and the ramp sight. Even if it was of post January, 1945 WWII manufacture, it is doubtful it would have the ramp rear sight.

Again, reading comprehension is not your strong suit. Try again.

You said that the CMP does sell "beat-to-heck racker" M1 Carbines, but you might pay more buying one of these wrecks from some other source. Why would you wind up with a wreck when you see what you are buying before you buy it?

 

[R.Mackey]

Then I imagine the Obama Administration would have no reason to ban the South Korean examples.

You don't understand the word "ban." That's your problem. Until you do, I doubt I'm going to make much headway here. No firearms have been banned.

Did you know that the State Department won't accept shipments of oil from Iran? OMG! Hillary's "De Facto Oil Ban!" Soon we'll all be forced to drive solar-powered cars!!

What are you babbling about? When the CMP gets a nice condition "rare" example such as an Un-Quality M1 Carbine they auction it off. One went for over $4,000. Like all firearm collecting, condition trumps everything outside of some proven special provenance

Unusual features? Like what? An added on Phased-plasma pulse rifle in 40-watt range? The Bavarian messed-up M1 Carbines are not valuable.

And you paid considerably less than $1K to the CMP. Does your carbine have importer markings? Who is the manufacturer? Does it have a flip sight and type 1 barrel band? What is the condition of the barrel and stock?

I can just picture you Googling like mad as you try to become an "Expert" as quickly as possible.

The only M1 Carbines going for thousands of dollars are the M1A1, or "Paratrooper" models, with original folding stocks. Or the one manufacturer who only made a few hundred copies. Even those rarely fetch $4K unless there is no doubt it's not a fake made with reproduction parts. And condition is king.

CMP Carbines do not have importer markings. There is no importer. Those rifles are returned to the Army and transferred in country. Dead giveaway that you have no clue what you're talking about. Google some more, grasshopper.

My Carbine is a Standard Products, early 1943, plausibly original barrel. Muzzle and throat gauge less than a 2 for wear. Not a speck of rust or pitting. Mix of parts. Flat bolt. Rearsenaled sometime after the war and has fresh Parkerizing and a barely readable inspector cartouche on the stock which is an M1 low-wood type. Type 3 band with bayonet lug, sliding rear sight, and flip safety -- all later features, but all 100% USGI.

The "unusual features" are flip sights, Type 1 barrel band, push-button safety, high wood, I-cut stocks. ETA: Also spring tubes and "dog-leg" hammers. Forgot about those. [/ETA] All valuable to collectors only. If you want to shoot the thing, all of these slightly reduce performance.

You said that the CMP does sell "beat-to-heck racker" M1 Carbines, but you might pay more buying one of these wrecks from some other source. Why would you wind up with a wreck when you see what you are buying before you buy it?

Because folks like you don't know any better.

CMP is mostly mail-order and sight unseen, but they have excellent customer service. Both of mine met or exceeded the quality standards claimed. Again, if you can find a better deal, buy it. And tell us all about it. I'm guessing you won't be able to, but feel free to prove me wrong.

And please, do learn what a ban is, will you?

 

[lomiller]

You are assuming facts not in evidence. These South Korean M1/Carbines may in fact be FMS (Foreign Military Sales program) and not MAP (Military Assistance Program). In which case, they would not be selling Americans their own property.

No, in that case they would be a foreign government selling arms in the US. Surely you don’t think that foreign government should be free to sell arms within the US without serious consideration as to who is actually receiving them?

In any case you are speculating, and even if true it simply adds to the evidence that there are legal complications involving these specific weapons as I point out above..

 

[Cicero]

I can just picture you Googling like mad as you try to become an "Expert" as quickly as possible.

If you knew anything about the subject, you would know that the "experts" who have written books on the M1 Carbine have made numerous errors.

The only M1 Carbines going for thousands of dollars are the M1A1, or "Paratrooper" models, with original folding stocks. Or the one manufacturer who only made a few hundred copies. Even those rarely fetch $4K unless there is no doubt it's not a fake made with reproduction parts. And condition is king.

CMP Carbines do not have importer markings. There is no importer. Those rifles are returned to the Army and transferred in country. Dead giveaway that you have no clue what you're talking about. Google some more, grasshopper.

The only Carbine you have ever purchased is from the CMP? All those who do not buy from the CMP don't know anything about Carbines? Fascinating.

My Carbine is a Standard Products, early 1943, plausibly original barrel. Muzzle and throat gauge less than a 2 for wear. Mix of parts. Flat bolt. Rearsenaled sometime after the war and has fresh Parkerizing and a barely readable inspector cartouche on the stock which is an M1 low-wood type. Type 3 band with bayonet lug, sliding rear sight, and flip safety -- all later features, but all 100% USGI.

Later features as in post WWII/Korean War. In post #29 I said WWII USGI optioned M1 Carbines. I was correct that yours does not meet that criteria. You have described a $500 or less shooter.

The "unusual features" are flip sights, Type 1 barrel band, push-button safety, high wood, I-cut stocks. All valuable to collectors only. If you want to shoot the thing, all of these slightly reduce performance.

Those are not unusual features unless you buy from the CMP. How does an "I" cut stock reduce performance, or even a high wood stock? How does a push button safety reduce performance? A type two barrel band doesn't help performance anymore than a type three, unless you think having a bayonet on the end helps shooting reliability.

Because folks like you don't know any better.

Folks like me who purchase Class III weapons that cost in the $5,000 to $20,000+ range can't afford to be as trusting as folks like you are with luck of the draw buying standards.

CMP is mostly mail-order and sight unseen, but they have excellent customer service. Both of mine met or exceeded the quality standards claimed. Again, if you can find a better deal, buy it. And tell us all about it. I'm guessing you won't be able to, but feel free to prove me wrong.

And please, do learn what a ban is, will you?

All you know is about the one M1 Carbine and one M1 rifle you purchased from the CMP.

 

[R.Mackey]

If you knew anything about the subject, you would know that the "experts" who have written books on the M1 Carbine have made numerous errors.

Just because you aren't an expert doesn't mean you need to gratuitously attack those who are. You're much crazier than I expected, aren't you?

The only Carbine you have ever purchased is from the CMP? All those who do not buy from the CMP don't know anything about Carbines? Fascinating.

Not what I said. I said you know nothing about Carbines. Maybe you should ask someone to read my posts to you. It couldn't hurt.

Later features as in post WWII/Korean War. In post #29 I said WWII USGI optioned M1 Carbines. I was correct that yours does not meet that criteria. You have described a $500 or less shooter.

Wrong. All of those modifications were made during the war. This particular Carbine, in all probability, was lent to Italy before the Korean War, and thus the US Army would never have bothered updating it to their standards...

Those are not unusual features unless you buy from the CMP. How does an "I" cut stock reduce performance, or even a high wood stock? How does a push button safety reduce performance? A type two barrel band doesn't help performance anymore than a type three, unless you think having a bayonet on the end helps shooting reliability.

This is why Googling is no help. I'll be glad to explain.

An "I" cut stock means the oiler has a little bit more play, wobbling just a bit around its middle. The sling uses the oiler as its rear swivel. Play in the oiler means the sling will slacken, and that affects your practical accuracy.

High wood means more contact with the receiver. The M1 Carbine is designed such that the receiver indexes against a bracket bolted in the stock just behind the receiver, and the barrel band. Any other contact is unnecessary and inhibits repeatability of pressure on the receiver and barrel, and this will throw off your accuracy as well.

The push-button safety was replaced after early reports from the field that troops sometimes confused the safety with the push-button magazine release. Last thing you want to do in a firefight is dump your magazine on the ground.

The Type 3 barrel band has a circular sleeve that supports the bayonet lug, as opposed to the Type 1 which only encloses the front of the stock and the front of the upper handguard. This creates a much more positive bearing surface between the barrel and the stock, and thus, more accuracy.

As I said, you don't know what you're talking about.

Folks like me who purchase Class III weapons that cost in the $5,000 to $20,000+ range can't afford to be as trusting as folks like you are with luck of the draw buying standards.

Uh huh, I believe you. Show me your tax stamps, or I'm just going to call BS on this.

All you know is about the one M1 Carbine and one M1 rifle you purchased from the CMP.

Nope. My father had one, purchased through the NRA in the dim ages of history. Four of my fellow instructors have them as well. Not all are through the CMP.

Stop drinking your own kool aid already. There's an opportunity for you to learn here, and you're blowing it.

 

[Newtons Bit]

There is evidence that it is not a safety concern that is actually holding up the sale. The reason I brought up the CMP above is because, while this negotiation has been going on, the US has accepted and has sold other, very large shipments of the exact same rifles, where those rifles have originated from Greece, Denmark, Italy, and Turkey. Therefore, there is no coherent government policy position against these rifles on safety grounds. The only difference between the Korean rifles and the Greek rifles is that the Greek rifles were returned, whereas Korea is trying to sell theirs. No other differences.

As evidence, above, I have one of each rifle. Received March and May of this year, respectively. Concrete evidence.

My interpretation of what is going on is the following: State Department is stalling. One good way to stall is to refer the matter to the BATF, which they have done. In order to do that they have to make some kind of safety excuse. I believe that is why the State Department spokesperson made the referenced claim.

Your argument doesn't really make sense.

The article says that the rules are different than prior imports of this type. The State department has said they want to prohibit the sales due to safety and them falling into the wrong hands, etc, etc. It appears like they have the option of prohibiting it so they are going to. The executive branch may not have had that option with other deals. Or, this being a giant non-monolithic government, they decided to change their mind about it recently, or the powers that make the decisions didn't know about it before hand, or someone new is in charge, etc, etc.

Why would they be stalling? Is it to try and negotiate a better deal with the South Koreans? Is it a diplomatic thing because we gave them for free and we would like to get them back for free? That could be a PR nightmare for the Democrats. They would be seen as saying that the guns are dangerous, but now that the US is getting a better price on them... well, they're not that dangerous after all.

 

[Cicero]

Just because you aren't an expert doesn't mean you need to gratuitously attack those who are. You're much crazier than I expected, aren't you?

Alright. So you are ignorant about the errors printed in books on the subject. No sin. J.C. Harrison's book is a prime example.

Not what I said. I said you know nothing about Carbines. Maybe you should ask someone to read my posts to you. It couldn't hurt.

That you thought these features ("Type 1 barrel band, push-button safety, high wood, I-cut stocks") are "unusual" says all I need to know about your knowledge of M1 Carbines.

Wrong. All of those modifications were made during the war. This particular Carbine, in all probability, was lent to Italy before the Korean War, and thus the US Army would never have bothered updating it to their standards...

********.

Show me a period WWII combat photo of an M1 Carbine with a type III barrel band? All probability? Where did you get this apocryphal story?

This is why Googling is no help. I'll be glad to explain.

Then I challenge you to a real time question and answer on this subject where Google will not be an issue. You should study up while you can.

An "I" cut stock means the oiler has a little bit more play, wobbling just a bit around its middle. The sling uses the oiler as its rear swivel. Play in the oiler means the sling will slacken, and that affects your practical accuracy.
High wood means more contact with the receiver. The M1 Carbine is designed such that the receiver indexes against a bracket bolted in the stock just behind the receiver, and the barrel band. Any other contact is unnecessary and inhibits repeatability of pressure on the receiver and barrel, and this will throw off your accuracy as well.

Please. I have a QRMC "I" cut high wood stock and this is not even an issue. Amazing how so many combat soldiers managed to hit their targets during WWII before these changes in design were implemented at the various factories. And the barrel band was never changed during WWII.

The push-button safety was replaced after early reports from the field that troops sometimes confused the safety with the push-button magazine release. Last thing you want to do in a firefight is dump your magazine on the ground.

Do you engage in a lot of firefights with your Carbine? Again, how does this feature "reduce performance" in your shooting world?

The Type 3 barrel band has a circular sleeve that supports the bayonet lug, as opposed to the Type 1 which only encloses the front of the stock and the front of the upper handguard. This creates a much more positive bearing surface between the barrel and the stock, and thus, more accuracy.

As I said, you don't know what you're talking about.

As I said, the type II band has a sleeve as well. G.I.'s
and Marines managed to go through WWII with the type I and II bands with no problem,

Uh huh, I believe you. Show me your tax stamps, or I'm just going to call BS on this.

Don't look now, but that sticky stuff hanging off your visage is an omelet.

[

 

[R.Mackey]

Alright. So you are ignorant about the errors printed in books on the subject. No sin. J.C. Harrison's book is a prime example.

I suppose you're claiming Paul Wahl got it wrong too, or Craig Reisch, or the USMC's own records, all of which show the Type III bands in production starting October 1944?

Anyone who disagrees with you is "in error," is that it?

That you thought these features ("Type 1 barrel band, push-button safety, high wood, I-cut stocks") are "unusual" says all I need to know about your knowledge of M1 Carbines.

They are unusual. The majority of M1 Carbines were rearsenaled and upgraded with later features. Everyone in the world knows this. Frankly I don't see what the big deal is, except for collectors who have to have one of everything, but people can spend more money on whatever they want.

Show me a period WWII combat photo of an M1 Carbine with a type III barrel band? All probability? Where did you get this apocryphal story?

For those who aren't familiar with gun discussions, this is the grandaddy of all M1 Carbine pissing matches. It's old ground, the familiar retreat of an Internet troll trying to do nothing but bog down the argument.

The best single thread with pictures of Type III bands among combat troops is this one.

Now, I will grant you that approximately zero saw fighting in Europe, and that besides Iwo and Okinawa there were very few that made it to the lines before the war ended. I will also grant you that on my particular carbine, it was rearsenaled (as I wrote in previous posts) and didn't receive that part until after the war. But it's still a wartime modification. It was in the works almost a year before V-J Day. That's all there is to it.

Please. I have a QRMC "I" cut high wood stock and this is not even an issue. Amazing how so many combat soldiers managed to hit their targets during WWII before these changes in design were implemented at the various factories. And the barrel band was never changed during WWII.

At the ranges most M1 Carbines were used, a soldier only needs about 10 MOA of accuracy. In a Carbine match, however, to be competitive you need a lot more -- about 3 MOA. Most M1 Carbines will not shoot to this standard out of the box. The CMP has a lot of articles on accurizing the Carbine. And those with "late" features need the least accurization, in general. Mine fits that pattern. You can denigrate it if you want, but I shoot my rifles, and I like the "late" features.

Do you engage in a lot of firefights with your Carbine? Again, how does this feature "reduce performance" in your shooting world?

Strange comment about what I "need," coming from a guy running NFA Class III. As it happens, in Carbine matches, two stages require magazine changes during a tight time window, and it does make a difference if there's no doubt about which is the mag release and which is the safety. It does make a difference in my shooting world. Your mileage may vary.

As I said, the type II band has a sleeve as well. G.I.'s and Marines managed to go through WWII with the type I and II bands with no problem,

Correct. I would have been fine with a Type II. Type I wouldn't have bothered me either, to be honest. I don't have a bayonet for my M1 Carbine, that kind of negates the purpose. I do have one for my Garand, though. Different rifle with a different mission.

Don't look now, but that sticky stuff hanging off your visage is an omelet.

[qimg]http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b56/Polythemus/Image6.jpg[/qimg]

I accept your photo, well challenged.

It does leave me a bit perplexed, however. You honestly have that much invested in the shooting sports, and yet you still don't know what a "ban" is? No mater how much you've spent, you still have much to learn.