Have we lost the war over the meaning of "skeptic"?

Have we lost the war on the word "skeptic"?

  • Yes, we've lost, people think it means a global warming denier or science denier.

    Votes: 7 77.8%

  • No, we've won, people know what we mean.

    Votes: 2 22.2%
  • Total voters
    9

Orphia Nay

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Orphia Nay
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My friend Robyn is quite logical about things, and yesterday she was telling me about a person who was a conspiracy theorist and alt-med nut. She thought she'd like to pair this woo woman up with our friend Geoff. Geoff is a fairly critical thinker.

I told Robyn I didn't think pairing Geoff up with the conspiracy theorist was a good idea as Geoff is a skeptic, and Robyn said, "same diff isn't it?"

I've noticed most people now associate "skeptic" with "global warming skeptic". That term has travelled round the world several times while the ISF meaning of "skeptic" hasn't finished putting its socks on.

Is it time to admit defeat and call ourselves "debunkers" instead? International Debunkers Forum?
 
I think it has always had (at least) two distinct meanings: skeptic as we understand it here, tends to mean a skeptic of claims for supernatural phenomenon such as UFOs, ghosts, ESP and cryptozoology.

BUT... it also means accepting conventional scientific consensus, and that's the bit where people tend to call themselves skeptics on issues like vaccines, climate change, conventional medicine etc...

Natural languages always end up with unusual issues like this where two people can call themselves skeptics and have completely different conceptions of what that means and are horrified to meet each other at dinner parties, like the two survivors who had nothing in common when they met each other in Curb Your Enthusiasm.

(*) There is also radical skepticism as understood in philosophy where there is pretty much a refusal to believe in anything at all.
 
angrysoba said:
BUT... it also means accepting conventional scientific consensus, and that's the bit where people tend to call themselves skeptics on issues like vaccines, climate change, conventional medicine etc...
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I think you mean, "NOT accepting scientific consensus"...
 
Skeptics demand evidence for claims (especially extraordinary claims). Cynics pretend to be using skepticism but really there is no evidence that they will accept.
 
angrysoba said:
LOL! This is where it gets confusing. On climate change we accept the scientific consensus unless there is good evidence not to. The other skeptics don't.
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Ah yes, I know that. It was a parsing problem, all good.

Don't people find it annoying having to reel off a whole spiel to explain what you mean by "skeptic" to differentiate from a denier?
 
I'm not prepared to agree with either choice offered by the poll. The "war" is ongoing and has neither been won nor lost.

Also, it isn't really a war. If someone misunderstands the word, consider it an opportunity to explain what the word means to you.
 
Puppycow said:
I'm not prepared to agree with either choice offered by the poll. The "war" is ongoing and has neither been won nor lost.

Also, it isn't really a war. If someone misunderstands the word, consider it an opportunity to explain what the word means to you.
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What if I don't want to be That Person during a conversation changing the subject and redefining definitions and telling people they're wrong?

That's a noble aspiration, but I still think we've lost too many battles.
 
Whatevervthe word means is rather secondary to the general consensos of how this board, and the long standing members define it.

There are a few theist types in the mix that otherwise tow a tight line, a few that slide on the medical stuff some but still keep the rest straight. It's a good mix to keep us all more or less honest.
 
Skepticism has been mostly replaced by sociopolitical woo on this board.

And it's probably been a decade or more since this forum has offered a significant debunking of anything.
 
8enotto said:
Whatevervthe word means is rather secondary to the general consensos of how this board, and the long standing members define it.

There are a few theist types in the mix that otherwise tow a tight line, a few that slide on the medical stuff some but still keep the rest straight. It's a good mix to keep us all more or less honest.
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I just wonder if the membership of the board has died out in tandem with the rise of the meaning of the word being known widespread as global warming denier.
 
I kind of wonder how much the widespread population really worries about global warming, and what they can do to help.
My impression is most don't give a flying flock about it.
They don't want to inconvenience a lifestyle.

Why would they care about the word 'skeptic'?
 
I would like to say no but yes its largely useless label. To normies its got two meanings, I think most folks think it means cynic but some folks think it means doubting the consensus on some issue or all issues and deniers think they are skeptics.

After reading Julia Galef's book, I try to only wear identities lightly, so I'm not to upset about the loss of skeptic as a label.


ETA: Still better than "Bright"tm

Sidetrack, I went to wiki to remind myself of the brights and found a radio host that called himself a bright at some point. Lionel, once a host for air air american but eventually became a Qanon believer and commentator for Russia Today. That's ideological journey.

ETAM: I love reading that wiki article every so often. So many otherwise bright people that thought that cringy as hell notion would ever catch on. I'm embarrassed for them even 20 years later.
 
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Orphia Nay said:
My friend Robyn is quite logical about things, and yesterday she was telling me about a person who was a conspiracy theorist and alt-med nut. She thought she'd like to pair this woo woman up with our friend Geoff. Geoff is a fairly critical thinker.

I told Robyn I didn't think pairing Geoff up with the conspiracy theorist was a good idea as Geoff is a skeptic, and Robyn said, "same diff isn't it?"

I've noticed most people now associate "skeptic" with "global warming skeptic". That term has travelled round the world several times while the ISF meaning of "skeptic" hasn't finished putting its socks on.

Is it time to admit defeat and call ourselves "debunkers" instead? International Debunkers Forum?
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We can call ourselves skeptics, when in context we know we'll be understood. Else, more generally, "Rationalist" should do fine. No need to be wedded to the term "Skeptic" till death do us part, is there? I personally won't much mind letting go of Skeptic and staying with Rationalist ---- not "debunker", that's a subset. Although naturally, if made king of the world, if given a choice, if asked, I'd stay with Skeptic.

I agree, talking about "skepticism" sometimes/often does need an explanatory footnote. No need to go to "war" over the term, is where I'm at.


eta: As for the poll? A third option? Not Planet X, but an in-between thing?
 
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There's already a forum called "Rationalia".

Would it be plagiarising them to call ourselves International Rationalists Forum?

Mind you, "Debunkers" is still more widely used.

I just think the word "skeptics" in our name is putting people off.
 
Orphia Nay said:
There's already a forum called "Rationalia".

Would it be plagiarising them to call ourselves International Rationalists Forum?

Mind you, "Debunkers" is still more widely used.

I just think the word "skeptics" in our name is putting people off.
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Oh, you mean, specifically in terms of this forum name? ...Fair point, then, about the potential confusion. ...For no reason other than sentiment, and not liking change: I'd say, keep the name, but make very clear on the home page, conspicuously at the top, what we mean by the term.

Never heard of Rationalia. I'll check them out.
 
Just did. Very briefly.

Interesting. Certainly, focuses on rationalism. But seems just a wee bit woo-sympathetic, as in leaning towards the abstractions of Vedantic/Upanishadic ideas, aka early deism, early 'unitarianism' maybe. Or at least, that's what a very quick, super quick browse indicates.

Very young team at the helm. As young as teenagers, in fact, with the "founder" a twenty-year-old, apparently. Which, while it makes the thing possibly just a bit high on passion and low on accuracy (maybe, maybe not); but, by and large, a good thing, surely. Also, the names seem Asian, Indian maybe. Again, a good thing, to have a broader base of skepticism/rationalism: but, on the other hand, that might explain their thing about Advaitic-ish ideas (or what seemed to me such, basis a super quick browse).

Anyway, cool reference. Bookmarked, I'll check them out some more later when I've time.
 
Orphia Nay said:
There's already a forum called "Rationalia".

Would it be plagiarising them to call ourselves International Rationalists Forum?

Mind you, "Debunkers" is still more widely used.

I just think the word "skeptics" in our name is putting people off.
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But skepticism is about more than just debunking. Sure, debunking woo is fun and it can be important, but skepticism is a philosophy, a state of mind, a practice, and an approach to knowledge. Skepticism is epistemology and metacognition, knowing how to find out what is true and what should be debunked.

Yes, the word does a lot of heavy lifting. I think it's still useful, even if it is not a conversation for every occasion.
 
arthwollipot said:
But skepticism is about more than just debunking. Sure, debunking woo is fun and it can be important, but skepticism is a philosophy, a state of mind, a practice, and an approach to knowledge. Skepticism is epistemology and metacognition, knowing how to find out what is true and what should be debunked.

Yes, the word does a lot of heavy lifting. I think it's still useful, even if it is not a conversation for every occasion.
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Yes, it's useful in the right context, but the general context has been hijacked.
 
(c) none of the above.

Not a fan of the term "skeptic" myself, but if I recall it pretty handily one the membership vote when JREF became no more. Still haven't come up with something better, though I like rationalia!

How about a whole new word .... Reasonality
 
I think it's true, as Orphia suggests, that the term has unfortunately been hijacked. George Santayana defined skepticism as "the chastity of the intellect," which seems a good way to put it, but nowadays it's come to mean more denial than doubt, replacing mindless acceptance with mindless refusal.

Icerat's "reasonality" reminds me of a little tiff C.S. Peirce had with his colleague William James. Peirce had coined the term "pragmatism," but was displeased when James's expansion of the term became its accepted meaning, so for himself he coined the term "pragmaticism," stating that anyone who comes up with a new idea should give it an ugly name to protect it from hijacking.
 
Reasonality has the advantage of clumsiness, especially for its practitioners, who would become, I suppose, reasonalitists, but those come dangerously close to reasonelitists, a corruption whose damage might be hard to repair, and we'll be cast down among the social justice warriors and the woke, the do-gooders and the virtue signallers, the very name discrediting opinions in advance.
 
I think the impact of the incorrect usage of the word "skeptic" is overexaggerated. Most people don't even think about the word. I've never been accused of being a climate change denier when I describe myself as a skeptic.
 
arthwollipot said:
I think the impact of the incorrect usage of the word "skeptic" is overexaggerated. Most people don't even think about the word. I've never been accused of being a climate change denier when I describe myself as a skeptic.
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But do they give you funny looks?
 
Around these here parts, they seem to think skeptic loosely means "universal contrarian who will smirk condescendingly at you"
 
Orphia Nay said:
But do they give you funny looks?
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Not that I've noticed.
Thermal said:
Around these here parts, they seem to think skeptic loosely means "universal contrarian who will smirk condescendingly at you"
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This is the problem, not the word. There is a certain amount of arrogance in skepticism, because we care about the truth and they do not. We can tell people that they're wrong about something, because we have the tools to sort out the true from the false. I think a lot of skeptics forget that skepticism also requires humility, and that's what gives skeptics a bad reputation. Not the word itself.
 
It might help if a description/definition of scepticsm (i.e. scientific scepticism) was added to the intro blurb on the ISF home page. That way, people would know what to expect in a sceptics' forum, that it's about following the evidence, not automatically disbelieving in something, and the definition might also pique the interest of potential new members.
 
Cosmic Yak said:
It might help if a description/definition of scepticsm (i.e. scientific scepticism) was added to the intro blurb on the ISF home page. That way, people would know what to expect in a sceptics' forum, that it's about following the evidence, not automatically disbelieving in something, and the definition might also pique the interest of potential new members.
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Working on this, and a few other articles.
 
arthwollipot said:
Not that I've noticed.

This is the problem, not the word. There is a certain amount of arrogance in skepticism, because we care about the truth and they do not. We can tell people that they're wrong about something, because we have the tools to sort out the true from the false. I think a lot of skeptics forget that skepticism also requires humility, and that's what gives skeptics a bad reputation. Not the word itself.
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It's a very short hop.for someone who doesn't understand what skepticism actually *is* to conflate *a skeptic* as meaning *one of those pricks*. So yeah, it literally becomes the word. If that doesn't get challenged, it will become the *literal* meaning of the word, rather than an association with its wearer.
 
Orphia Nay said:
Reasonality... not bad!

It would certainly get rid of the dead weight of the word "skeptic".
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Reasonality (noun): The quality or state of being reasonable and grounded in reality; the ability to think, act, and make decisions based on logical reasoning, practical considerations, and critical thinking.
  • Example: "Her reasonality in handling complex situations made her an invaluable team leader."
Reasonal (adjective): Pertaining to or characterized by reasonality.
  • Example: "Her reasonal approach to problem-solving impressed everyone."
Reasonally (adverb): In a manner that exhibits reasonality.
  • Example: "He reasonally assessed the situation before making a decision."
Reasonalist (noun): A person who practices or advocates for reasonality. (note: there is an existing word "Reasonist")
  • Example: "As a reasonalist, she always seeks logical and practical solutions."
Reasonalize (verb): To make something reasonable or grounded in reality.
  • Example: "He tried to reasonalize the complex theory for the audience."
 
arthwollipot said:
Not that I've noticed.

This is the problem, not the word. There is a certain amount of arrogance in skepticism, because we care about the truth and they do not. We can tell people that they're wrong about something, because we have the tools to sort out the true from the false. I think a lot of skeptics forget that skepticism also requires humility, and that's what gives skeptics a bad reputation. Not the word itself.
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I suspect most folks care about the "truth" but disagree on what tools you need to get there. Aside from that, the humility thing a big factor. INHO, you can't really be a skeptic without some intellectual humility, a lot of it actually. Seems like lots of self-described skeptics forget that or don't even think it's true. I certainly forget on occasion.
 
icerat said:
Reasonality (noun): The quality or state of being reasonable and grounded in reality; the ability to think, act, and make decisions based on logical reasoning, practical considerations, and critical thinking.
  • Example: "Her reasonality in handling complex situations made her an invaluable team leader."
Reasonal (adjective): Pertaining to or characterized by reasonality.
  • Example: "Her reasonal approach to problem-solving impressed everyone."
Reasonally (adverb): In a manner that exhibits reasonality.
  • Example: "He reasonally assessed the situation before making a decision."
Reasonalist (noun): A person who practices or advocates for reasonality. (note: there is an existing word "Reasonist")
  • Example: "As a reasonalist, she always seeks logical and practical solutions."
Reasonalize (verb): To make something reasonable or grounded in reality.
  • Example: "He tried to reasonalize the complex theory for the audience."
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We already have the word 'rational' and 'rationalist' to describe the issue of reasonableness.
 
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