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Explorer
Graduate Poster
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The brain is a complex organ, and we know today that it can create apparent fabricated external experiences, including seeing entities, against a background of not what we generally accept as reality. The experience is real to the beholder. My mother-in-law described all sorts of people in her care home room that were not really there, and was quite happy with it, knowing it was not real but it gave her some extra company during her latter days, when she could even have a conversational exchange with them.
It can be argued, as I sure it has been on here before, that reality is only an interpretation consensus of the outside world through our five senses, and that "reality" can be modified and manipulated by the brain wittingly and unwittingly, in a variety of ways and techniques. Sincere people who see things, ghosts and the like, are genuinely seeing them, but they are only a synthetic add on to the reality they usually experience. We cannot question their reality, only to say, well that's fine, but it is different to the next person's own reality at any given time.
It can be argued, as I sure it has been on here before, that reality is only an interpretation consensus of the outside world through our five senses, and that "reality" can be modified and manipulated by the brain wittingly and unwittingly, in a variety of ways and techniques. Sincere people who see things, ghosts and the like, are genuinely seeing them, but they are only a synthetic add on to the reality they usually experience. We cannot question their reality, only to say, well that's fine, but it is different to the next person's own reality at any given time.
Cosmic Yak
Philosopher
OK, but have you ever had a stomach ache? This, so we are told, is a sure-fire sign of the presence of spirits.
PookieBear
Critical Thinker
I don’t want to play psychiatrist here but your MIL must have had the early signs of dementia! It’s that prosaic!
I live in a home where a terrible tragedy and injustice occurred. If any home could be haunted, it is this one. And yet, no one here has seen anything even remotely resembling “a ghostly visitation.” No communications whatsoever.
My husband’s mother is really superstitious- she believes in Bigfoot and reincarnations and UFOs- and even she doesn’t claim to have seen the shooting victims’ ghosts!
I’ll add another thing. America and Canada both genocided their natives, as did Australia and Brazil and Japan.
Former settler colonies should be haunted end to end by the spirits of the indigenous. An entire continent was liquidated. And yet I have been to Australia and I couldn’t see anything supernatural in the least. The only spirits you might see is the alcohol!
I live in a home where a terrible tragedy and injustice occurred. If any home could be haunted, it is this one. And yet, no one here has seen anything even remotely resembling “a ghostly visitation.” No communications whatsoever.
My husband’s mother is really superstitious- she believes in Bigfoot and reincarnations and UFOs- and even she doesn’t claim to have seen the shooting victims’ ghosts!
I’ll add another thing. America and Canada both genocided their natives, as did Australia and Brazil and Japan.
Former settler colonies should be haunted end to end by the spirits of the indigenous. An entire continent was liquidated. And yet I have been to Australia and I couldn’t see anything supernatural in the least. The only spirits you might see is the alcohol!
P.J. Denyer
Penultimate Amazing
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The map is not the territory. In other words our perceptions are not reality and do not alter reality. Somone has the classic Dick quote in their signature: Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.
The fact that the shade of grey labelled A and B is perceived by humans to be different does not make them different:
Jack by the hedge
Safely Ignored
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I'm always impressed by this illusion. I literally just got a post-it note and cut squares out of it then stuck it to my monitor to prove to myself that A and B are the same, but as soon as I peel it off I cannot convince myself it's true.
Explorer
Graduate Poster
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Sorry, but I should have been clearer in the highlighted part of my post that you quoted. I was trying to explain, but not very well, that the perception of reality by the observer can be modified and manipulated by the brain, not actual reality itself. This in turn explains why apparently many sincere honest people who describe their experiences, genuinely believe that what they saw was indeed real, at least for them. This for me is a very important difference, and I thought that my mother-in-law anecdote would be sufficient to get my meaning across.
Just to muddy the waters, and as I expect that you are already well aware, some physicists think reality at quantum level is whatever the observer wants it to be. Personally, I don't understand quantum physics, it took me fifty years to understand relativity.
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novaphile
Quester of Doglets
I'd like to take this further and suggest that none of us live in reality.
We inhabit a mental model of the world and it is not possible for us to interact with the world without using that mental model.
That's just how our brains work.
i.e. we don't see with our eyes, we see with our brains.
Fortunately, for most of us, the physical world matches the mental model created in our brain and the model works very well for us.
(For others, the mental model often fails and includes things that aren't there.)
I'm pretty sure everyone here would have experienced the sudden shock where physical reality doesn't match our mental model.
Examples from me:
Step onto/lean on a shadow which is actually a hole or gap.
Lean on a fence post that was actually a bird (Tawny frogmouth)
Pick up a stick that was actually a snake (Eastern Brown, not sure which one of us was more upset!)
Bright blue book that became red when I switched the light on.
I've heard that the first time a person experiences a severe earthquake, it can be incredibly confusing/distressing, because people's mental models don't include everything jumping up and down.
Axxman300
Philosopher
That a bit of an over-statement. No, we don't see with our brains. Yes, all of us perceive the world slightly different in some ways. Most of us can pick Brad Pitt out of a photo lineup, though. And while shadows in the night can hide all sorts of disasters, the fact is that oncoming freight train IS reality, and it's a bad idea to stand in the middle of the tracks. The fact is if you believe in ghosts you will think you've seen one, or had an experience with one. People who do not believe in ghosts never see or report them. It's that simple. It's funny until some kid is murdered during an exorcism because mom and dad are "believers".
Cat Not Included
Critical Thinker
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There are many things that humans don't fully understand. There are many things I'm sure science will discover in the future. However, humans have done some really amazing bits of discovering things. Humans figured out how to use a certain kind of mold to stop infections. We've managed to get images and details of celestial objects trillions and trillions of miles away. We've figured out how to get a good analysis of what animals live in an area by analyzing fish poop. We figured out neutrinos exist despite interacting so little with anything that they can pass clear through the planet, and have made machines to detect them. Meteors are unpredictable and last for seconds, yet we've got plenty of photos of them.
Then we've got "hauntings", which are supposed reoccurring, are usually in accessible places, and are detectable by unaided human sense...but NOBODY has ever been able to get solid evidence of them or come up with a way of studying them?
arthwollipot
Observer of Phenomena, Pronouns: he/him
There is plenty of evidence that reveals that we don't "see" reality, we "see" a mental model of reality, which is usually pretty accurate. It lags a couple of milliseconds behind reality, for example. But the point is that the model can be wrong. We "see" something which in reality is a sweater hung over the back of a chair, but which our brain models as a hunched figure. Pareidolia is another example of this. That piece of cheese toast doesn't really have a face on it, but once you've seen the face, you can't unsee it.
Axxman300
Philosopher
I get the point. It's just poorly stated. A better explanation is those times you misplace your keys, or your wallet. We are creatures of habit, and when we break from routine over a mundane act there is a risk of overreacting the moment we can't find that thing. We've all been there, clock's ticking, we're late, and our key ring is "gone". Suddenly your home becomes an alien environment as you retrace your steps, counter tops, and shelves are suddenly foreign until you recover your lost item. And during the entirety of your search there is a battle inside your head that becomes more irrational the longer the search goes on. You begin opening drawers you haven't touched in months, you enter rooms that you didn't go into while you had your key ring. You ask family if they've seen your keys, and a few people jump to accusing those family members of taking them. The longer it takes to find your missing keys the greater the mental turmoil, and the stronger the irrational thinking becomes. Suddenly your perceived reality has been altered.
...and then you find your key ring. One of two things happens; as you pick them up all the memories of you placing them in that location flood back, and you're embarrassed. Or you have no idea why you left your key ring where you found it.
The variations in which we all slightly perceive our world are real, but not so great as to doubt reality. I've never been to New York, but I'm certain the Empire State Building is exactly where the maps show it to be. Where the perception comes into play is usually things like size. I wonder how many tourists first see the Empire State Building, or the Eifel Tower, and say they though both would be bigger? Wide-angle lenses shape perceptions. When I went to Dealey Plaza in Dallas, TX, I was shocked at how small it is compared to how it appears on film.
novaphile
Quester of Doglets
The worst case, when finding your keys, is that they are where you expected them to be, the place that you checked 75 times during your searching.
I've experienced that a couple of times, and have found the way past it, is to search by touch.
My best guess? Psychological blindness caused by social anxiety.
I've experienced that a couple of times, and have found the way past it, is to search by touch.
My best guess? Psychological blindness caused by social anxiety.
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
I just want to put on the record that my home has never seemed alien to me, when looking for a misplaced item. Totally unrelatable.
I did, however, once sincerely believe I was witnessing the Devil. It was a rather unusual setting, the lighting was unfamiliar, and I was emotionally distraught. The hallucination lasted maybe a second, and then my mind made proper sense of what I was seeing.
But for that one second...
I did, however, once sincerely believe I was witnessing the Devil. It was a rather unusual setting, the lighting was unfamiliar, and I was emotionally distraught. The hallucination lasted maybe a second, and then my mind made proper sense of what I was seeing.
But for that one second...
Explorer
Graduate Poster
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From personal experience of my own brain I can tell you it is perfectly possible for it to create original images that I can actually "see". When I close my eyes and have essentially a blank dark canvas in front of me, on occasions I start seeing a jumble of random shapes and patterns forming. Suddenly a perfect monotone image of an animal or face appears that I can actually see for a few seconds and describe to myself. It sometimes morphs into something else, not recognisable, but nevertheless, it is an interesting experience. Does it have any value? Well perhaps only that if these self created images can be overlaid on to the reality of the outside world would it have any bearing on this thread. So far, this hasn't yet happened for me.
P.J. Denyer
Penultimate Amazing
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I had an interesting on the other day, I was dog walking in a quiet village (one road, no pavements, BIG front gardens) when I distinctly felt someone grab my arm, not hard, but it was unignorable and I spun around to see no-one in sight and no possible place anyone could have hidden.
What had actually happened is I got a new jacket for Christmas with pockets on the shoulders and put a power pack/hand warmer in one of them, promptly forgot about it. The power pack had fallen over in the pocket making the sleeve pull tight around my arm for a moment.
For me it's a nice anecdote about how a seemingly strange experience had a completely mundane exploration, but had I the right mindset (and like a lot here I did once have such a mindset for a while), I could have persuaded myself that the powerpack hadn't caused it, it didn't feel like a powerpack falling over, maybe it fell over weeks ago, no need to even mention it when recounting the experience, and given enough retellings, thanks to how memory works, "What powerpack?" .
What had actually happened is I got a new jacket for Christmas with pockets on the shoulders and put a power pack/hand warmer in one of them, promptly forgot about it. The power pack had fallen over in the pocket making the sleeve pull tight around my arm for a moment.
For me it's a nice anecdote about how a seemingly strange experience had a completely mundane exploration, but had I the right mindset (and like a lot here I did once have such a mindset for a while), I could have persuaded myself that the powerpack hadn't caused it, it didn't feel like a powerpack falling over, maybe it fell over weeks ago, no need to even mention it when recounting the experience, and given enough retellings, thanks to how memory works, "What powerpack?" .
We had an absolute loon on here in the early days and he would not accept that it was an optical illusion - someone did a quick video of square B moving to square A and he still wouldn't have it.
I have always said that I have seen a ghost - can't find the actual thread but this is the one I was questioned on it: https://internationalskeptics.com/forums/index.php?threads/ghosts.91177/
What I haven't done is then jump to the conclusion that ghosts are remnants of people who have died, are an energy imprint and all the wonderful stuff believers in ghosts add on to the actual experience.
ETA: Found the post: https://internationalskeptics.com/forums/index.php?threads/anyone-seen-a-ghost.71595/post-2219466
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Some people do find their "mental" images and sounds interfere with their perception of the world - and not just talking about people who are clinically diagnosed as schizophrenic and similar diagnosis, these people see the "mind's eye images" you described as part of the world they inhabit. Often called hyperphantasia.
Axxman300
Philosopher
People see ghosts. This is why I continue to investigate the phenomenon. But now I don't try to prove ghosts are real, and investigate WHY people see them instead. Understanding why someone sees a ghost is an answerable question. Proving the existence of ghosts has been impossible since parapsychologists have thrown every electronic sensor at the problem only to come up empty handed. Skeptics and believers continue to talk past each other as on the one side, there is no evidence for ghosts, while on the other side there are plenty of credible witnesses. The truth lies somewhere in the middle where a witness sees something, but does not have all the facts depending on the circumstances. Someone who is frightened will not remember many side details of the event without a long probing conversation. Police deal with this every day. The garden variety ghost hunter rarely takes the time to ask all the questions. And this fuels the skeptics' side of things, and rightly so.
JimOfAllTrades
Graduate Poster
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We have a "ghost" in our house right now. Occasionally you can hear what sounds like someone moaning. All three of us living here have heard it, bit individually and when together. It started a month or so ago and lasts for about 5 seconds at a time. We've heard it at different times of day, but usually in the evening or night. It's pretty quiet but clear when the house is quiet. It is not associated with the heating system or water heater, refrigerator, clothes washer or dryer, or any other appliances or electronics.
It took a while to track it down, but our son found the cause. He does most of the cooking, and he noticed that the sound came after running water in the kitchen sink for more than about 20 seconds. I've since noticed that it will also happen if you run water in one of the bathroom sinks for a little longer time. I'm fairly certain now that it's caused by faulty vent in the drain plumbing. I can actually feel the drain line under the sink vibrating when we hear the sound, but I tested the vent on that line and it's working. I'll test the other four vent lines over the next few days. If that doesn't find it I'll have to get under the house and check things out but I'm not doing that in this weather.
It took a while to track it down, but our son found the cause. He does most of the cooking, and he noticed that the sound came after running water in the kitchen sink for more than about 20 seconds. I've since noticed that it will also happen if you run water in one of the bathroom sinks for a little longer time. I'm fairly certain now that it's caused by faulty vent in the drain plumbing. I can actually feel the drain line under the sink vibrating when we hear the sound, but I tested the vent on that line and it's working. I'll test the other four vent lines over the next few days. If that doesn't find it I'll have to get under the house and check things out but I'm not doing that in this weather.
My brother and I rented a house built in 1890 and later added onto four times plus some foundation repairs. Every spring and fall as the ground frozen or thawed that house was a symphony of groans and slow snap like noises, but only from the basement of the original construction or the first floor. Upstairs was quiet, the side add on was the same.
We detected it was settling when windows only opened in the summer on the living room. They jammed every winter.
We detected it was settling when windows only opened in the summer on the living room. They jammed every winter.
PookieBear
Critical Thinker
There is only 1 thing that has ever challenged my skepticism about the paranormal, for lack of a better word.
I'm a big believer in rationalism but one thing flies in the face of that.
I used to live in a small town in Pennsylvania. One of the neighbors was an elderly guy. Went to work, never made trouble, was always polite to me.
My spouse got a really, really bad feeling about him. Then he heard a parole officer coming and going out of his home. Out of curiosity, he looked up the sex offender registry online.
Sure enough, there it was. He had raped an 8-year-old and burned her with cigarettes. He was dumb enough to tape himself, too.
I was stunned. I never would have thought that. If anything, I thought the neighbor was gay!
I swear, it is almost like my spouse has a 6th sense about people. And before anyone says "Nah, he's not psychic! He just saw a parole officer leaving!", I will repeat that he got the bad feeling long BEFORE the law arrived.
I asked "How did you KNOW!?" and, as absurd as this sounds, my spouse says it started when the neighbor started playing disco-techno pop music at night. He had a disco ball above his bed, too.
For some reason, that made my spouse think "There is something really wrong with the neighbor." And he was right!
I'm a big believer in rationalism but one thing flies in the face of that.
I used to live in a small town in Pennsylvania. One of the neighbors was an elderly guy. Went to work, never made trouble, was always polite to me.
My spouse got a really, really bad feeling about him. Then he heard a parole officer coming and going out of his home. Out of curiosity, he looked up the sex offender registry online.
Sure enough, there it was. He had raped an 8-year-old and burned her with cigarettes. He was dumb enough to tape himself, too.
I was stunned. I never would have thought that. If anything, I thought the neighbor was gay!
I swear, it is almost like my spouse has a 6th sense about people. And before anyone says "Nah, he's not psychic! He just saw a parole officer leaving!", I will repeat that he got the bad feeling long BEFORE the law arrived.
I asked "How did you KNOW!?" and, as absurd as this sounds, my spouse says it started when the neighbor started playing disco-techno pop music at night. He had a disco ball above his bed, too.
For some reason, that made my spouse think "There is something really wrong with the neighbor." And he was right!
PookieBear
Critical Thinker
Perhaps a 2nd thing has challenged my assertion that the supernatural is not real, if "supernatural" is even the right term to use here.
People have told me that their dogs can read their minds, for lack of a better word.
The family dog will trot over to a relative. They will think "Hey, that's not fair. How come the dog never pays attention to me!?" and the dog will somehow sense it and walk over to the person who feels neglected.
These aren't nuts who believe in MAGA or Christian fundamentalism or psychics, either.
These are liberal atheists, to the best of my knowledge.
People have told me that their dogs can read their minds, for lack of a better word.
The family dog will trot over to a relative. They will think "Hey, that's not fair. How come the dog never pays attention to me!?" and the dog will somehow sense it and walk over to the person who feels neglected.
These aren't nuts who believe in MAGA or Christian fundamentalism or psychics, either.
These are liberal atheists, to the best of my knowledge.
PookieBear
Critical Thinker
Another thing. People say that dogs know they are going to die.
Before they are euthanized, they exhibit clear signs of fear. Not even at the pound or the vet's office.
While still at home, like they know what's coming.
People who work at slaughterhouses also say "The cows definitely know we are planning on killing them!"
On another note, they also seem to know when it is about to rain. They lay down when they sense it is coming.
I still don't believe in predicting the future, but....
Before they are euthanized, they exhibit clear signs of fear. Not even at the pound or the vet's office.
While still at home, like they know what's coming.
People who work at slaughterhouses also say "The cows definitely know we are planning on killing them!"
On another note, they also seem to know when it is about to rain. They lay down when they sense it is coming.
I still don't believe in predicting the future, but....
arthwollipot
Observer of Phenomena, Pronouns: he/him
It's entirely reasonable, and quite natural, to just get a bad feeling from some people.
Dogs' sensory apparatus is quite different from our own. Their primary way of experiencing the world is through smell. Sight and hearing are secondary. So dogs react to very different sets of stimuli from us. That can make it seem like they're reacting to things that just aren't there because we can't sense them.
And cows are taken from their fields, loaded into trucks for a bumpy ride to a place they've never been before, and herded up chutes into a place that smells like blood. Of course they're going to be anxious.
PookieBear
Critical Thinker
So....a dog can smell your resentment and disappointment?
I used to know this dude who was a complete atheist (which makes me think he was a rationalist) and he would swear the dog was reading his mind!
If he thought to himself "How come the dog likes my sister but not me?", the dog would instantly leave his sister and come to him! Like the dog was trying to atone for a mistake.
I don't think that can be attributed to smelling!
I used to know this dude who was a complete atheist (which makes me think he was a rationalist) and he would swear the dog was reading his mind!
If he thought to himself "How come the dog likes my sister but not me?", the dog would instantly leave his sister and come to him! Like the dog was trying to atone for a mistake.
I don't think that can be attributed to smelling!
P.J. Denyer
Penultimate Amazing
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Dogs are extremely good at picking up on human emotions and reading our body language, their entire evolution as a species distinctive from wolves has been as the lesser partner in an incredibly close relationship with another species that has literal power of life and death over them. We've shaped physically from chihuahuas to mastiffs, they've even evolved an additional muscle in their eyebrows because it makes an expression we find appealing. It's no surprise they can pick up on very subtle clues about our moods, their lives have depended on it.
Between that, the fact that most dogs will wander between friendly people in a group and good old fashioned confirmation bias I don't think (speaking as someone who's work involves constant close contact with dogs) we need to speculate about magic powers to explain their behaviour.
Between that, the fact that most dogs will wander between friendly people in a group and good old fashioned confirmation bias I don't think (speaking as someone who's work involves constant close contact with dogs) we need to speculate about magic powers to explain their behaviour.
PookieBear
Critical Thinker
I don't want to use words like "magic powers", cause I obviously don't believe magic exists.
For lack of a better word, however, I think animals have some sort of telepathy, as crazy as that sounds.
I mean, I obviously don't believe in ESP or telepathy but I don't know how else to describe it.
People swear up and down that cows can sense when the rain is coming, for instance. When they know it is about to rain, they all lay down.
People speculate that they somehow feel changes in air pressure. Or they feel the moisture on their fur.
Fair enough. But that doesn't explain how animals KNOW they are about to die.
And again, it isn't cause they "smell the blood in the air."
My acquaintance was ordered to surrender a perfectly nice pit bull that had bitten a neighbor's dog cause that dog had trespassed into their property. What a shame. It was completely unfair. The other dog wasn't badly hurt, either! The pit bull was euthanized for no reason.
Setting that aside, the pit bull knew she was marked for death. She just knew it.
And it wasn't cause she "smelled death at the pound" cause she acted fearfully while still in the house.
For lack of a better word, however, I think animals have some sort of telepathy, as crazy as that sounds.
I mean, I obviously don't believe in ESP or telepathy but I don't know how else to describe it.
People swear up and down that cows can sense when the rain is coming, for instance. When they know it is about to rain, they all lay down.
People speculate that they somehow feel changes in air pressure. Or they feel the moisture on their fur.
Fair enough. But that doesn't explain how animals KNOW they are about to die.
And again, it isn't cause they "smell the blood in the air."
My acquaintance was ordered to surrender a perfectly nice pit bull that had bitten a neighbor's dog cause that dog had trespassed into their property. What a shame. It was completely unfair. The other dog wasn't badly hurt, either! The pit bull was euthanized for no reason.
Setting that aside, the pit bull knew she was marked for death. She just knew it.
And it wasn't cause she "smelled death at the pound" cause she acted fearfully while still in the house.
arthwollipot
Observer of Phenomena, Pronouns: he/him
Yes, dogs can pick up on social cues in ways that humans can't, like P.J. said. It doesn't require any kind of "telepathy", just ordinary sensory apparatus that are quite different from ours.
P.J. Denyer
Penultimate Amazing
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If you're suggesting a form of communication using no known transmitting organ, no known or detectable medium of transmission, no known receiving organ, and a common but unknown mode of communication between humans and another species then yes, you are talking about magic.
Jack by the hedge
Safely Ignored
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The unfortunate dog knew it was in big trouble because of course it knew what it had done and realised this had been a bad move because dogs are so sensitive to social cues in their 'pack'.
Worth noting the owner also sensed that the dog knew things were bad, because humans too are sensitive to behavioural cues and not because they had some kind of sixth sense either.
Worth noting the owner also sensed that the dog knew things were bad, because humans too are sensitive to behavioural cues and not because they had some kind of sixth sense either.
Spektator
Watching . . . always watching.
Re: dogs. When I am home and my wife is out, I generally hang out in the living room with my laptop. Indy, our normally hyper dog, perches on the end of the sofa staring at the front door and stays there, even if I leave the room for a lunch break. Eventually and suddenly Indy will alert, run to the door, and whine. In three or four minutes my wife will drive into our driveway. She says if she's home, Indy does not hold still and anticipate my return, but will run to the door a few minutes before I return, but only if I drive her car, not my old van. My suspicions: 1-Indy hears the car long before we can and 2-Indy loves and misses my wife more.
Pixel42
Schrödinger's cat
There was a study a while back which indicated that dogs expect someone back when their smell has faded to the level it has usually reached when they return home.
Thermal
August Member
While that may or may not be, I'm with Spectator. I've had dogs and even one cat that could hear my particular vehicle from a couple miles out. I'm confident that it had nothing to do with timed smell levels in the house, simply because I was on no schedule of any kind and would head in and out at completely unpredictable times and intervals.
But if I go out on foot or bike for hours, I get the attack dog greeting tlil they see it's me. Because they didn't hear my truck.
Pixel42
Schrödinger's cat
I doubt it's just one thing, it's a combination of several.
P.J. Denyer
Penultimate Amazing
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This, my wife & I both keep irregular schedules, on the rare occasion I leave him at home or my wife takes my old noisy car he hears it from miles away, her new quiet one not so much & he can be surprised by her arrival home. For people with regular habits, don't forget dogs have a very good sense of time, when it interests them, Bert knows his 6:30pm dinner time to within a couple of minutes and makes us very aware if we're distracted and tardy.