Ghislaine Maxwell

smartcooky said:
No. The only thing that is "incomprehensible" is your (and other Maxwell apologists') inability to understand the difference between a "victim" and a "perpetrator" of sexual violence.

Jeffrey Epstein and Ghislaine Maxwell are PERPETRATORS of sexual violence!

Virginia Giuffre, Annie Farmer, Sarah Ransome, Elizabeth Stein, Jane, Kate and Carolyn are just some of their VICTIMS!
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If Jeffrey Epstein and Ghislaine Maxwell are PERPETRATORS of sexual violence! I want to understand how come none of the clients who actually used the bodies of these women for their sordid gratification and who likely were much of the root causes for all of the abortions needed and nervous breakdowns in their victims have not been charged and also sentenced to 20 years in jail.

In which way are they less responsible than Maxwell. After all, she didn't make them do it. As they were grown adults and thus can't use the claim they were minors and thus cannot be held responsible for their actions, where is your bitter outrage towards them?
 
Vixen said:
If Jeffrey Epstein and Ghislaine Maxwell are PERPETRATORS of sexual violence! I want to understand how come none of the clients who actually used the bodies of these women for their sordid gratification and who likely were much of the root causes for all of the abortions needed and nervous breakdowns in their victims have not been charged and also sentenced to 20 years in jail.
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That is a question you should be asking Ghislaine Maxwell.... she has it within her power to name names!

I was responding directly and only to Samson's (and by proxy, Planigale's) implied assertions that if Ghislaine Maxwell deserved prosecution, then so did Virginia Giuffre. I can think of little that is more abhorrent; that so insults the conscience, than to suggest that the teenage victim of sex-traffickers, someone who was coerced and manipulated into participating in the trafficker's sordid scheme, should be prosecuted. It disgusts me to the core!
 
Vixen said:
If Jeffrey Epstein and Ghislaine Maxwell are PERPETRATORS of sexual violence! I want to understand how come none of the clients who actually used the bodies of these women for their sordid gratification and who likely were much of the root causes for all of the abortions needed and nervous breakdowns in their victims have not been charged and also sentenced to 20 years in jail.
.....
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Who are those clients? Who has testified against them? What evidence has been assembled? Don't make vague insinuations. A criminal prosecution requires specifics, which no one -- including Epstein's and Maxwell's victims -- has provided, with the exception of Prince Andrew's substantial civil settlement to Giuffre.
 
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Vixen said:
If Jeffrey Epstein and Ghislaine Maxwell are PERPETRATORS of sexual violence! I want to understand how come none of the clients who actually used the bodies of these women for their sordid gratification and who likely were much of the root causes for all of the abortions needed and nervous breakdowns in their victims have not been charged and also sentenced to 20 years in jail.

In which way are they less responsible than Maxwell. After all, she didn't make them do it. As they were grown adults and thus can't use the claim they were minors and thus cannot be held responsible for their actions, where is your bitter outrage towards them?
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When can we expect to see you bringing a private prosecution?
 
Vixen said:
In which way are they less responsible than Maxwell. After all, she didn't make them do it. As they were grown adults and thus can't use the claim they were minors and thus cannot be held responsible for their actions...
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Oh, and I forgot to address this bull-**** whataboutism and strawman.

Exactly where have I stated that these people are less responsible than Maxwell!?

Of course they are just as responsible, even more so - no demand, no supply (although I strongly believe that Maxwell would still have done what she did to supply Epstein's perversions).

Vixen said:
... where is your bitter outrage towards them?
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And yes, I would display bitter outrage towards them, if I knew who they were. Maxwell knows exactly who they are, and she is not saying - that is a another big black mark against her.

Do you know who they are? If so give us some names... with concrete evidence of their culpability... otherwise, pipe down.
 
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Let's be realistic here: Very few people are going to be held accountable for their complicity in Epstein's crimes.

But of those accomplices, Maxwell is very near the top of the list of people who should be held accountable. It will be a tragedy that justice isn't going to work its way down the list. But at least it got Epstein (more or less), and at least it got Maxwell. I'd like it to get more, but the fact that the rest will likely go free doesn't diminish one whit my satisfaction that Maxwell will not go free.

There is no moral argument for letting Maxwell go free simply because the rest will never be prosecuted.

"We should do to others what we've done to Maxwell," is the moral principle here.

Not, "we shouldn't do to Maxwell unless we've also done to others."
 
theprestige said:
Let's be realistic here: Very few people are going to be held accountable for their complicity in Epstein's crimes.

But of those accomplices, Maxwell is very near the top of the list of people who should be held accountable. It will be a tragedy that justice isn't going to work its way down the list. But at least it got Epstein (more or less), and at least it got Maxwell. I'd like it to get more, but the fact that the rest will likely go free doesn't diminish one whit my satisfaction that Maxwell will not go free. There is no moral argument for letting Maxwell go free simply because the rest will never be prosecuted.
"We should do to others what we've done to Maxwell," is the moral principle here.

Not, "we shouldn't do to Maxwell unless we've also done to others."
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Agree with it all but the highlighted in particular.

And as Smartcooky says. Because Maxwell hasn't shown sufficient remorse to inform on the other criminals, it's no reason to either give up on searching for admissible evidence nor to show clemency to Maxwell.
 
Bob001 said:
Who are those clients? Who has testified against them? What evidence has been assembled? Don't make vague insinuations. A criminal prosecution requires specifics, which no one -- including Epstein's and Maxwell's victims -- has provided, with the exception of Prince Andrew's substantial civil settlement to Giuffre.
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If only there was some incriminating little black book full of names and addresses, or perhaps a pilot's log as to who attended Little St James the same time as the young ladies in question....
 
theprestige said:
Let's be realistic here: Very few people are going to be held accountable for their complicity in Epstein's crimes.

But of those accomplices, Maxwell is very near the top of the list of people who should be held accountable. It will be a tragedy that justice isn't going to work its way down the list. But at least it got Epstein (more or less), and at least it got Maxwell. I'd like it to get more, but the fact that the rest will likely go free doesn't diminish one whit my satisfaction that Maxwell will not go free.

There is no moral argument for letting Maxwell go free simply because the rest will never be prosecuted.

"We should do to others what we've done to Maxwell," is the moral principle here.

Not, "we shouldn't do to Maxwell unless we've also done to others."
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As I recall, Sarah Ransome was in her twenties and was not a minor. She told the Netflix producers that she desperately tried to escape by swimming in shark-filled waters (haha) but the guys dragged her back. Now in her court sentencing hearing impact statement she claims 'she thought of trying to jump off a cliff into sharkfilled waters but Maxwell managed to dissuade her. So a case of something that would have happened in the future...had it not happened after all. Gimme a break!

Don't get me wrong, I loathe and despise madams and pimps and Maxwell was without doubt a common pimp. However, there is no need to dress it all up in hyperbole.

Almost all of these women who attended these sex parties were not 'sex slaves', had their own accommodation - like Guiffre did - to go home to afterwards. It is ridiculous they refuse to take any responsibility at all for their own lifestyle choices.
 
Vixen said:
If only there was some incriminating little black book full of names and addresses, or perhaps a pilot's log as to who attended Little St James the same time as the young ladies in question....
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This still doesn't excuse Maxwell (see the last three line of theprestige's post #1846)
 
Vixen said:
As I recall, Sarah Ransome was in her twenties and was not a minor. She told the Netflix producers that she desperately tried to escape by swimming in shark-filled waters (haha) but the guys dragged her back. Now in her court sentencing hearing impact statement she claims 'she thought of trying to jump off a cliff into sharkfilled waters but Maxwell managed to dissuade her. So a case of something that would have happened in the future...had it not happened after all. Gimme a break!

Don't get me wrong, I loathe and despise madams and pimps and Maxwell was without doubt a common pimp. However, there is no need to dress it all up in hyperbole. Almost all of these women who attended these sex parties were not 'sex slaves', had their own accommodation - like Guiffre did - to go home to afterwards. It is ridiculous they refuse to take any responsibility at all for their own lifestyle choices.
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She assaulted some of the minors in her own right. She was Epstein's lover and co-conspirator.
 
Vixen said:
As I recall, Sarah Ransome was in her twenties and was not a minor.
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Sex trafficking is a crime regardless of the age of the victims!!

Vixen said:
Don't get me wrong, I loathe and despise madams and pimps and Maxwell was without doubt a common pimp. However, there is no need to dress it all up in hyperbole.
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Its not hyperbole, though it probably looks like it to someone who has spend the whole thread trying to justify minimizing the seriousness of Maxwell's crimes.

Vixen said:
Almost all of these women who attended these sex parties were not 'sex slaves', had their own accommodation - like Guiffre did - to go home to afterwards. It is ridiculous they refuse to take any responsibility at all for their own lifestyle choices.
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Just read that back to yourself and *******-well LISTEN to what you've said!! You are promoting the idea that it is OK for women to be trafficked for sex so long as the trafficker is kind enough to provide them with a place to sleep!!

How disgusting!!
 
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smartcooky said:
This still doesn't excuse Maxwell (see the last three line of theprestige's post #1846)
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Don't change the subject. We weren't talking about 'excusing' Maxwell. I was simply saying one should not exaggerate it. If Maxwell is worth 20 years in jail, why aren't the men who actually used the bodies of these young women being charged? I'll tell you why, because the vast majority were not minors at all and prostitution is no longer a crime.
 
jimbob said:
She assaulted some of the minors in her own right. She was Epstein's lover and co-conspirator.
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Her word against theirs. In a trial of public opinion, the popular Netflix opinion is going to be the opinion of the day. We saw how Sarah Ransome claimed she swam in the dangerous waters but when in front of a court of law said it was only something that crossed her mind.

Yes, Maxwell committed a crime. Problem is, is the sentence really worth more than the average sentence for a murder in Europe (12 years)?
 
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smartcooky said:
Sex trafficking is a crime regardless of the age of the victims!!



Its not hyperbole, though it probably looks like it to someone who has spend the whole thread trying to justify minimizing the seriousness of Maxwell's crimes.



Just read that back to yourself and *******-well LISTEN to what you've said!! You are promoting the idea that it is OK for women to be trafficked for sex so long as the trafficker is kind enough to provide them with a place to sleep!!

How disgusting!!
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So are you claiming that a grown adult has no right to choose to be a sex worker and that someone who is, must have been coerced into that profession, because surely that is an insult to a woman's right to choose without being coerced by anyone. In addition, Ghislaine Maxwell was not Epstein's only girlfriend and co-conspirator. There was that Kellen woman and the Swedish woman as well, yet they seem to be immune from prosecution. Why?
 
Vixen said:
So are you claiming that a grown adult has no right to choose to be a sex worker and that someone who is, must have been coerced into that profession, because surely that is an insult to a woman's right to choose without being coerced by anyone. ...snip..
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If they had chosen to be a sex worker then they wouldn't have been trafficked.... the term "sex trafficking" means it was involuntary as all forms os human trafficking is.
 
Vixen said:
So are you claiming that a grown adult has no right to choose to be a sex worker and that someone who is
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You really are the limit.

These girls didn't ******* well choose what happened to them - they were coerced and manipulated at a young age (some under age) into what they ended up doing. Maxwell specifically targeted vulnerable girls. She is a ******* predator!

Please, just do yourself a favour and go learn the bloody difference between prostitution and sex trafficking.
 
Vixen said:
So are you claiming that a grown adult has no right to choose to be a sex worker and that someone who is, must have been coerced into that profession, because surely that is an insult to a woman's right to choose without being coerced by anyone. In addition, Ghislaine Maxwell was not Epstein's only girlfriend and co-conspirator. There was that Kellen woman and the Swedish woman as well, yet they seem to be immune from prosecution. Why?
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I think in the US (with rare exceptions) grown adults cannot choose to be sex workers (qua prostitutes). In e.g. the UK being a prostitute is legal, as is a private commercial deal between consenting adults (the age of consent being 18 as opposed to 16 off non-commercial sex). This would not be true in the US.

I have no problems with Maxwell being charged and convicted. The odd thing as Vixen says is the very selective conviction, other adults who openly admit to recruiting under age girls for sex seem to be protected. Selective prosecution is literally prejudice. The place for people to present their defence is at trial not in private discussions with prosecutors.

Maxwell is the only person prosecuted for these crimes, that does not mean we cannot consider that others were also complicit but are allowed to go unpunished.

We can consider that men who actually traffic and rape women are punished less severely than Maxwell e.g. Cosby, Epstein, Weinstein (well pretty much the same as Weinstein), R Kelly got thirty years for multiple counts. It will be interesting to see if any of the assistants of Cosby, Weinstein, Kelly are charged and convicted or because in those cases the principle has been convicted it is felt unnecessary to pursue other participants. That Maxwell was convicted but no other participants are does support the idea that she was pursued as a substitute for Epstein.

Maxwell was the product of a dominating father. She had just moved to New York, to a job and apartment effectively provided by her father. Then her father died, in itself this would leave many women emotional and vulnerable despite being over 18. However, this also meant she lost her job and her apartment. She suddenly became bereaved, homeless, unemployed, and poor in one go. This was the point that Epstein moved in on her, provided her with place to stay. We know Epstein was manipulative and controlling, Maxwell being an adult does not make her immune from being manipulated by Epstein. Once living with and dependant on Epstein it would be difficult to escape from his control. She and her legal team did not present this in her defence so rightly this was not considered in her punishment. It does not mean we cannot think about it. It is easy to demonise her but as we see with other women involved (but not prosecuted) women can be both victims and perpetrators.
 
Planigale said:
I think in the US (with rare exceptions) grown adults cannot choose to be sex workers (qua prostitutes). In e.g. the UK being a prostitute is legal, as is a private commercial deal between consenting adults (the age of consent being 18 as opposed to 16 off non-commercial sex). This would not be true in the US.

I have no problems with Maxwell being charged and convicted. The odd thing as Vixen says is the very selective conviction, other adults who openly admit to recruiting under age girls for sex seem to be protected. Selective prosecution is literally prejudice. The place for people to present their defence is at trial not in private discussions with prosecutors.

Maxwell is the only person prosecuted for these crimes, that does not mean we cannot consider that others were also complicit but are allowed to go unpunished.

We can consider that men who actually traffic and rape women are punished less severely than Maxwell e.g. Cosby, Epstein, Weinstein (well pretty much the same as Weinstein), R Kelly got thirty years for multiple counts. It will be interesting to see if any of the assistants of Cosby, Weinstein, Kelly are charged and convicted or because in those cases the principle has been convicted it is felt unnecessary to pursue other participants. That Maxwell was convicted but no other participants are does support the idea that she was pursued as a substitute for Epstein.

Maxwell was the product of a dominating father. She had just moved to New York, to a job and apartment effectively provided by her father. Then her father died, in itself this would leave many women emotional and vulnerable despite being over 18. However, this also meant she lost her job and her apartment. She suddenly became bereaved, homeless, unemployed, and poor in one go. This was the point that Epstein moved in on her, provided her with place to stay. We know Epstein was manipulative and controlling, Maxwell being an adult does not make her immune from being manipulated by Epstein. Once living with and dependant on Epstein it would be difficult to escape from his control. She and her legal team did not present this in her defence so rightly this was not considered in her punishment. It does not mean we cannot think about it. It is easy to demonise her but as we see with other women involved (but not prosecuted) women can be both victims and perpetrators.
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Well said.
 
Planigale said:
I think in the US (with rare exceptions) grown adults cannot choose to be sex workers (qua prostitutes). In e.g. the UK being a prostitute is legal, as is a private commercial deal between consenting adults (the age of consent being 18 as opposed to 16 off non-commercial sex). This would not be true in the US.

I have no problems with Maxwell being charged and convicted. The odd thing as Vixen says is the very selective conviction, other adults who openly admit to recruiting under age girls for sex seem to be protected. Selective prosecution is literally prejudice. The place for people to present their defence is at trial not in private discussions with prosecutors.

Maxwell is the only person prosecuted for these crimes, that does not mean we cannot consider that others were also complicit but are allowed to go unpunished.

We can consider that men who actually traffic and rape women are punished less severely than Maxwell e.g. Cosby, Epstein, Weinstein (well pretty much the same as Weinstein), R Kelly got thirty years for multiple counts. It will be interesting to see if any of the assistants of Cosby, Weinstein, Kelly are charged and convicted or because in those cases the principle has been convicted it is felt unnecessary to pursue other participants. That Maxwell was convicted but no other participants are does support the idea that she was pursued as a substitute for Epstein.

Maxwell was the product of a dominating father. She had just moved to New York, to a job and apartment effectively provided by her father. Then her father died, in itself this would leave many women emotional and vulnerable despite being over 18. However, this also meant she lost her job and her apartment. She suddenly became bereaved, homeless, unemployed, and poor in one go. This was the point that Epstein moved in on her, provided her with place to stay. We know Epstein was manipulative and controlling, Maxwell being an adult does not make her immune from being manipulated by Epstein. Once living with and dependant on Epstein it would be difficult to escape from his control. She and her legal team did not present this in her defence so rightly this was not considered in her punishment. It does not mean we cannot think about it. It is easy to demonise her but as we see with other women involved (but not prosecuted) women can be both victims and perpetrators.
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I agree with Samson, well said, but NONE of this excuses what she did.

Firstly, you don't get a free pass just because you had a lousy upbringing or your parents were useless. She knew exactly what she was doing - she knew it was vile, disgusting, criminal behaviour, but she went ahead and did it anyway, and thus far, she has shown absolutely no remorse for what she did.

Secondly, you don't get a free pass just because others who may have also been involved haven't been brought to justice. Their cases have nothing to do with Maxwell or her case - she was charged for what she did.

Finally, you, Samson, Vixen and some others seem to be implying that victims such as Virginia Giuffre ought to be brought to justice for being accomplices in that they too recruited girls. Have any of you any ******* idea of the optics of doing this? Do you understand why this would be such a very bad idea? Really? If authorities start charging people like Giuffre and Ransome, you can bloody-well kiss goodbye to ANY chance of seeing victims of human traffickers coming forward and telling their stories. Future Epsteins and Maxwells would be protected not only by their own threats against their victims, they would also be protected by the victim's own fear of prosecution. That would lead to victims being trapped with literally nowhere to run.
 
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Samson said:
I found this on Twitter, and frankly she is spot on.
Where are the men who watched Maxwell fry?

https://twitter.com/IsabellaMDeLuca/status/1599060971653238784?t=botVKT-MTjfLtVGZHOTyOg&s=19
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Exactly. How can you have children trafficked for sex without a john at the other end. Prostitution laws these days are targetted at the clients, so where are the clients because presumably to qualify as a pimp you need to supply to known clients.

Note that Giuffre dropped her civil suit against Dershowitz (_sp?).

Prince Andrew <thinks> Drat! I handed over $12,000,000.
 
Samson said:
I found this on Twitter, and frankly she is spot on.
Where are the men who watched Maxwell fry?

https://twitter.com/IsabellaMDeLuca/status/1599060971653238784?t=botVKT-MTjfLtVGZHOTyOg&s=19
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Vixen said:
Exactly. How can you have children trafficked for sex without a john at the other end. Prostitution laws these days are targetted at the clients, so where are the clients because presumably to qualify as a pimp you need to supply to known clients.

Note that Giuffre dropped her civil suit against Dershowitz (_sp?).

Prince Andrew <thinks> Drat! I handed over $12,000,000.
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Over there in Fantasyland, every client of Maxwell and Epstein who had sex with under-aged or trafficked girls would be charged, prosecuted, found guilty and sentenced to long jail terms, but over here in Realworld, this is only going to happen if there is a direct complaint made to Law Enforcement by an actual victim against a specific person.. and that rarely happens because the victims are afraid to speak out... ask yourselves why that might be!!

In the mean time, this stupid Twitter poster posting a list of people who visited the Epstein's Island is not evidence of anything, let alone of having sex with under-aged girls. How many of those listed does she have evidence against for raping sex trafficked women and girls? "Guilt by association" is not a law in any civilized country.... I have visited Russia but that doesn't make me a Putin supporter, I have visited China but that doesn't make me a communist, and I have visited both Saudi Arabia and Libya, but that doesn't make me a terrorist.

I had never even heard of Epstein before the more recent time he was arrested and charged, and I only knew who Maxwell was as the daughter of her famous father. There would be plenty of people on that list who would have had no idea what these two scumbags were up to.
 
A rather ham-fisted attempt to act as though they were going after the woman while ignoring the men. Well-intentioned but not very well thought-out.
 
theprestige said:
Indeed. We should be charitable and skeptical at all times, and not infer overmuch from open associations between people of power and authority and scumbags.
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Yup. It doesn't take a functioning brain to realize the fact that people like Epstein cloak their misdeeds and wrongdoings under cover (or more appropriately in this case, behind a front) of legitimate business. Epstein's Island was a luxury holiday resort and the vast majority of people who went there would simply have had no idea of the other things that were going on there.
 
Gord_in_Toronto said:
She ain't dead yet. Protesting away, that it's all a terrible mistake and she did nothing wrong!

Sex trafficker Ghislaine Maxwell's extraordinary claims from prison

Only for those with strong stomachs. :(
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I saw that last week, and I also watched "Ghislaine Maxwell: Filthy Rich" on Netflix.

Those two documentaries don't just confirm what I thought about her, they have revealed that she is even more of a self-entitled, ruthless, remorseless (and guilty) scumbag than I previously imagined. Ghislaine Maxwell is a horrible, horrible person and she is exactly where she deserves to be.
 
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smartcooky said:
I saw that last week, and I also watched "Ghislaine Maxwell: Filthy Rich" on Netflix.

Those two documentaries don't just confirm what I thought about her, they have revealed that she is even more of a self-entitled, ruthless, remorseless (and guilty) scumbag than I previously imagined. Ghislaine Maxwell is a horrible, horrible person and she is exactly where she deserves to be.
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She's her father's daughter allright. And her brothers should consider themselves very lucky that the authorities didn't look more closely into their involvement in daddy's pensions fraud.
 
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