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Cont: General Israel/Palestine discussion thread - Part 4

Haniyyeh arrives in Cairo, we should all calm down, and just let's see what his next proposed hostage 'deal' entails. (Sinwar is also now reportedly in Egyptian Sinai, with a hostage 'shield' surrounding him).

646th Reserve Brigade is doing an excellent job of 'sealing the fates' of Hamas.
IDF is doing what it is doing.
 
The Great Zaganza - since HAMAS has already won, what do Israel need to give them to stop the bloodshed - And recent, sourced evidence for what they want, not what you think they want

I get it - unless I (someone not living in the Middle East, not a Palestinian or Jew with no political or media connections) can provide the perfect solution that satisfies everyone I am not allowed to point out that not even the people in charge of the IDF admittedly have no solution, and yet should continue a campaign that is the most deadly in recent history.

( https://apnews.com/article/israel-g...h-toll-scope-419488c511f83c85baea22458472a796 )

All I hope to achieve is sow a tiny seed of doubt, that might come to fruition for some of you in a year or more's time when the smoke has cleared and the international press is allowed to investigate what has happened in Gaza.

Please, everyone, do stop for a moment and consider: do you think that, looking back, Israel's reaction to Oct. 7th will look more or less justified than you currently think it is?
 
your catching on.

Indeed the only way to explain why the IDF is doing what it is doing is to provide a reason the purge all of Palestine.

Not to provide a reason for, but because that's apparently been the only option since Oct 7th if, as you suggest, any retaliation would have only strengthened HAMAS.

Damned if they retaliate, damned if they don't - so why not choose the option that at least leads to a permanent removal of the opposition, however distasteful.
 
I get it - unless I (someone not living in the Middle East, not a Palestinian or Jew with no political or media connections) can provide the perfect solution that satisfies everyone I am not allowed to point out that not even the people in charge of the IDF admittedly have no solution, and yet should continue a campaign that is the most deadly in recent history.

( https://apnews.com/article/israel-g...h-toll-scope-419488c511f83c85baea22458472a796 )

All I hope to achieve is sow a tiny seed of doubt, that might come to fruition for some of you in a year or more's time when the smoke has cleared and the international press is allowed to investigate what has happened in Gaza.

Please, everyone, do stop for a moment and consider: do you think that, looking back, Israel's reaction to Oct. 7th will look more or less justified than you currently think it is?

I'm not after a solution, I want you to tell the forum what HAMAS has already won. You can quote them directly as I believe you've posted links from Electronic Infada in the past so you know where to find this information

Are you to ashamed to tell the forum what HAMAS has already won in your mind? It's that why you're struggling to answer a very clear and direct question
 
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HAMAS has already won so the Jews need to all commit suicide to prevent further bloodshed - The Great Zagana

If you've got a problem with that statement you need to spell out where I've got it wrong and provide evidence
 
When I say "Hamas has already won", I am not making propaganda;

I'm pointing out something very basic in how terrorists have managed to win independence for their group by goading your opponent into disproportionate retaliations to your terrorist attack. This galvanizes not only the support from your group, but from the world community at large.

Hamas has won Sympathy for the Palestinians in the Court of Global Public Opinion over Israel. It has managed to make Israel "The Bad Guy", and that will have disastrous consequences going forward.


Ireland has been through this, which is why they are very much on the Palestinian side in this conflict, seeing so many parallels to their own violent resistance to occupation.
 
HAMAS has already won so the Jews need to all commit suicide to prevent further bloodshed - The Great Zagana

If you've got a problem with that statement you need to spell out where I've got it wrong and provide evidence

straw manning is an admittance that you don't have an argument.
 
Ireland has been through this, which is why they are very much on the Palestinian side in this conflict, seeing so many parallels to their own violent resistance to occupation.

Ireland also didn't take sides against the Nazis because they resented the British. There's a lot I like about the country where half my ancestors came from, but I would never look to them for guidance about anything to do with the Jews. They have a blind spot.
 
When I say "Hamas has already won", I am not making propaganda;

I'm pointing out something very basic in how terrorists have managed to win independence for their group by goading your opponent into disproportionate retaliations to your terrorist attack. This galvanizes not only the support from your group, but from the world community at large.

Hamas has won Sympathy for the Palestinians in the Court of Global Public Opinion over Israel. It has managed to make Israel "The Bad Guy", and that will have disastrous consequences going forward.

Ireland has been through this, which is why they are very much on the Palestinian side in this conflict, seeing so many parallels to their own violent resistance to occupation.

To those whinging on the sidelines, Israel has always been the bad guy and Israel has weathered their condemnation for 75 years or so and continues to get stronger. I don't see that changing because of this.
 
Right, the only time terrorism is bad in your eyes is when you can draw a moral equivalence suitable for castigating Israel.

---

Why do you never say that Hamas needs to stop provoking Israeli violence?

The blockade on Gaza is an act of terrorism.

Israel lends a blind eye to Jewish acts of terrorism upon Palestinians in the West Bank.

Destroying illegal Arab buildings when its almost impossible for Arabs to get a building permit from Israel in the West Bank, while granting illegal Jewish construction retro-active building permits, is terrorism.

As long as Israel commits and allows terrorism against Arabs, the Arabs have the legal and moral right to resist Israeli aggression with military acts upon Israeli military personnel and installations. But not civilians. Attacks on civilians is NEVER justified.
 
To those whinging on the sidelines, Israel has always been the bad guy and Israel has weathered their condemnation for 75 years or so and continues to get stronger. I don't see that changing because of this.

True for many, but after Oct. 7th, Israel had the sympathy of most of the world (the world that believed the attack happened).
But no longer.
 
But let's focus on a more concrete, geopolitical win by Hamas:

why did the Attack happen when it happened?
Because Israel was about to sign a deal with Saudi Arabia that would have normalized relations.
To Netanyahu's great credit, he had managed to make many deals with Israel's Arab neighbours to improve Israel's security and economic ties.

Israel's reaction to the attack has made it unthinkable for Saudi Arabia to sign the deal as it was then. And no other Arab Nation will make any deals with Israel without major concessions, and those who already have will rethink their commitment to the agreements.
Because if they don't they risk the ire of their own population.

Hamas has managed to make Israel lose the security it had in its grasp. Because of IDF overreaction, Israel will be less safe in the future.
 
But let's focus on a more concrete, geopolitical win by Hamas:

why did the Attack happen when it happened?
Because Israel was about to sign a deal with Saudi Arabia that would have normalized relations.
To Netanyahu's great credit, he had managed to make many deals with Israel's Arab neighbours to improve Israel's security and economic ties.

And you don't think Saudi Arabia is aware of that? and that HAMAS is bankrolled by SA's enemy Iran?
Israel's reaction to the attack has made it unthinkable for Saudi Arabia to sign the deal as it was then. And no other Arab Nation will make any deals with Israel without major concessions, and those who already have will rethink their commitment to the agreements.
Because if they don't they risk the ire of their own population.

Do you have references to official statements from those countries you consider would change their approach in the long term?

Do you believe those countries actually care what their populations think?


Hamas has managed to make Israel lose the security it had in its grasp. Because of IDF overreaction, Israel will be less safe in the future.

Meh, easy come, easy go.

Safety from the genocidal loonies who keep attacking Israel directly may well be preferrable to a thawing of relations with countries that have always been inimical to Israel in the past and have still not managed to break the Israeli spirit.
 
Hamas has managed to make Israel lose the security it had in its grasp. Because of IDF overreaction, Israel will be less safe in the future.

Secure against what? Against the sort of attacks that Hamas just committed.

The attack itself demonstrated that Israel wasn't secure. And it will never be secure so long as Hamas has the ability to engage in such attacks. No treaty with Saudi Arabia will do anything to stop Hamas.

Israel's security priority is to destroy Hamas. Good relations with Saudi Arabia are useful, but Saudi Arabia isn't killing Jews. Hamas is.
 
Israel took that sympathy, spat on it, burned it, used it to justify war crimes and terrorism and Gaza.

That sympathy was never worth anything to begin with. It was always and only premised on Israel being the victim, and not fighting back. Its loss will not harm Israel, because its presence never benefited Israel.
 
The blockade on Gaza is an act of terrorism.

No, it isn't.

As long as Israel commits and allows terrorism against Arabs, the Arabs have the legal and moral right to resist Israeli aggression with military acts upon Israeli military personnel and installations. But not civilians. Attacks on civilians is NEVER justified.

But that's not how Hamas fights, and you know that. You pay lip service to Hamas doing bad things, but you never actually want them held accountable.
 
I just realized that Herc's false moral equivalence swings both ways. He'll pretend Israel is just as bad as Hamas, and he'll pretend that Hamas is just as good as Israel, depending on where he thinks he can find rhetorical advantage.
 
Secure against what? Against the sort of attacks that Hamas just committed.

The attack itself demonstrated that Israel wasn't secure. And it will never be secure so long as Hamas has the ability to engage in such attacks. No treaty with Saudi Arabia will do anything to stop Hamas.

Israel's security priority is to destroy Hamas. Good relations with Saudi Arabia are useful, but Saudi Arabia isn't killing Jews. Hamas is.

Hamas was never an existential threat to Israel. That is the reason why the IDF didn't bother to send troops to the border, despite repeated warnings of an upcoming attack.
Hezbollah is a serious threat, and even more so with backing from more than just Iran.
And, in case you forgot, Saudis killed a lot of Jews on 9/11.
 
I just realized that Herc's false moral equivalence swings both ways. He'll pretend Israel is just as bad as Hamas, and he'll pretend that Hamas is just as good as Israel, depending on where he thinks he can find rhetorical advantage.

Hamas directly targets civilians for death, I'm not convinced yet that Israel does that. But Israel does kill 10x more civilians than Hamas.

Its hard to say who is worse in the current conflict, Israel seems to be trying really hard to hurt as many civilians as possible.
 
Hamas was never an existential threat to Israel. That is the reason why the IDF didn't bother to send troops to the border, despite repeated warnings of an upcoming attack.
Hezbollah is a serious threat, and even more so with backing from more than just Iran.
And, in case you forgot, Saudis killed a lot of Jews on 9/11.

A threat doesn't have to be existential to be worth removing, it just has to be serious. And rockets and other acts of terrorism seems serious enough to me.

So Hezbollah next then?

Meh, 9/11 was an attack on "the West", not Jews in particular.
 
Hamas was never an existential threat to Israel.

They are an existential threat to a lot of Israelis. The relevant standard has never been whether or not they can destroy the entire state. That's just stupid.

Hezbollah is a serious threat

Indeed, they are. And should Hezbollah launch a major offensive, I would favor their destruction as well. So what's your point?
 
Hamas directly targets civilians for death, I'm not convinced yet that Israel does that. But Israel does kill 10x more civilians than Hamas.

And the US killed a lot more Japanese civilians in WW2 than Japan killed US civilians. When you **** around, you can't complain about finding out.

Its hard to say who is worse in the current conflict,

No, it really isn't.

Israel seems to be trying really hard to hurt as many civilians as possible.

No, they aren't. They can quite easily hurt a lot more civilians than they are right now. If you can't see that, you're blind.
 
They are an existential threat to a lot of Israelis. The relevant standard has never been whether or not they can destroy the entire state. That's just stupid...

Hamas never had the ability to destroy the state, hence they were never an existential threat.

Not unless you wish to redefine the term so as to fit your political agenda.
 
Meh, 9/11 was an attack on "the West", not Jews in particular.

And as soon as we started striking back, we got blamed for our response there too, and likewise accused of squandering sympathy. Such sympathy cannot be squandered because it has no value to begin with.
 
This is only because of the diligent efforts of the Israelis, to prevent Hamas from achieving that status. Efforts which you condemn, for some reason.

I have no issue with Israel destroying Hamas, as they are a military threat that engages in terrorism.

MY issue is how Israel destroys them, not if.
 
The world has complained about the blockade as an inhumane, unjust, unfair method of collective punishment and terrorism.

Appeal to popularity denied. The blockade is the reason HAMAS hasn't been successful in the genocide it regularly calls for. Sorry
 
I have no issue with Israel destroying Hamas, as they are a military threat that engages in terrorism.

MY issue is how Israel destroys them, not if.

Your issue is that there is no acceptable way to you for Israel to destroy HAMAS

Here's your chance to give some examples from history of how it should be done; Go!
 
The only options you've been OK with are unrealistic if not outright impossible. You hold Israel to a standard that no military on Earth follows.

Nonsense. We did not totally obliterate Baghdad before invading in 2004.

If Israel followed the tactics of the USA there would be far fewer civilian casualties in Gaza.
 
Hamas has won Sympathy for the Palestinians in the Court of Global Public Opinion over Israel. It has managed to make Israel "The Bad Guy", and that will have disastrous consequences going forward.

Or, as the bible would say, as ye sow, so shall ye reap. Lucky Jews don't do Saulus.

As far as I can tell, Israel's total "friends" right now stands at 1: USA.

Ireland has been through this, which is why they are very much on the Palestinian side in this conflict, seeing so many parallels to their own violent resistance to occupation.

Ditto South Africa.

Meanwhile, the genocide continues: https://www.who.int/news/item/19-02...ened-by-rising-malnutrition-in-the-gaza-strip
 
Nonsense. We did not totally obliterate Baghdad before invading in 2004.

We didn't need to. That's not where most of the Iraq army concentrated.

But we did drop a lot of bombs on it, and you should see what we did to Fallujah.

If Israel followed the tactics of the USA there would be far fewer civilian casualties in Gaza.

Why would Israel follow US tactics used in Iraq? They aren't fighting the same enemy, their enemy isn't using the same tactics, and they don't have identical capabilities. Of course the tactics are going to be different.

The problem is, your standards are different too.
 

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