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Cont: General Israel/Palestine discussion thread - Part 4

And there's no reason that Hamas can't renounce terrorism and surrender.

I agree that in exchange for Arab parts of EJ, 95% or so of the WB, and all of Gaza, Palestinians must declare the conflict over and renounce any military activity in its name.
 
The important thing is that ALL terrorism, war crimes and crimes against humanity cease.

That includes all attacks on civilians and the Gaza blockade.
 
The important thing is that ALL terrorism, war crimes and crimes against humanity cease.

That includes all attacks on civilians and the Gaza blockade.

Right, the only time terrorism is bad in your eyes is when you can draw a moral equivalence suitable for castigating Israel.

---

Why do you never say that Hamas needs to stop provoking Israeli violence?
 
what would satisfy you, or more importantly the Israeli leadership, as a surrender and renouncement of terrorism?

An official statement via twitter?
20+ known Hamas members turning themselves in ?
100?
All Palestinians swearing to never use violence against Israel again?
.

Why not?
 
I agree that in exchange for Arab parts of EJ, 95% or so of the WB, and all of Gaza, Palestinians must declare the conflict over and renounce any military activity in its name.

You already know that the Palestinians have rejected such a deal.
You already know that Hamas will not renounce military activity until all the Jews have been driven into the sea.
What, then, is the point of proposing such a deal? I can only surmise that it is a way of salving your own conscience, because this idea has virtually no merit at all in the real world.
What incentive do you believe will bring Hamas to the negotiating table and lead it to accept such a deal?
 
Please justify your comment about the 2017 document in the light of subsequent statements by Hamas officals that continue to talk about the destruction of Israel as their goal.
You could also explain why you think the existence of the American MIC is a reason why Hamas has to opt for continual war.

Bump for Planigale.
Especially the second question.
 

for starters, because it's not feasible, and that is the point - by making demands that can never be met, Israel can just continue their assualt.

But more basically, because it would require a complete totalitarian control of a population, that can demand a oath on pain or incarceration.

If you believe in the rights of individuals, you wouldn't ask.
 
for starters, because it's not feasible, and that is the point - by making demands that can never be met, Israel can just continue their assualt.

But more basically, because it would require a complete totalitarian control of a population, that can demand a oath on pain or incarceration.

If you believe in the rights of individuals, you wouldn't ask.

A renouncement of terrorism is a demand that can never be met? I don't think it's an unreasonable condition for an end to hostilities. Moreover, if, as you suggest, such an announcement from Hamas will never happen, then surely a military solution is the only possible option? What else is Israel supposed to do?
 
A renouncement of terrorism is a demand that can never be met? I don't think it's an unreasonable condition for an end to hostilities. Moreover, if, as you suggest, such an announcement from Hamas will never happen, then surely a military solution is the only possible option? What else is Israel supposed to do?

renouncement by whom?
In the example in question, it was every single Palestinian who would have to renouce terrorism to satisfy the demands.

But even Hamas membership isn't clearly enough defined to make sure you get "everyone" in your renouncement. And Hamas isn't the only organization.

So just thinking in terms of practicality, isn't clearly a demand that anyone can claim wasn't "fully" met, no matter what the Palestinians do.

But why not talk about it during a ceasefire?

Oh yeah, that's right - Israel doesn't want those, because they could lead to bad things like hostages being released.
 
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renouncement by whom?
In the example in question, it was every single Palestinian who would have to renouce terrorism to satisfy the demands.

Well, it was one of the examples you gave, and I assumed that part was not serious.
Were you being serious? Do you claim that Israel will only be satisfied if every single Palestinian swears to renounce terrorism? Or are you just seizing on Manger Douse's two-word answer to tar all opponents of Hamas as bloodthirsty baby-murderers who will never be satisfied until Gaza is turned to radioactive glass?

But even Hamas membership isn't clearly enough defined to make sure you get "everyone" in your renouncement.

Well, we know about Ismail Haniyeh. Hearing him renounce terrorism would be a nice start- followed by the rest of the political bureau.
The reservations you express here, about not getting everyone: are these coming from the Israeli leadership, from your own strawman of their position, or from your strawman of the positions of people on this forum?

And Hamas isn't the only organization.

No, they aren't. But they are the main one. Getting them to look for peace would be a major step in the right direction.

So just thinking in terms of practicality, isn't clearly a demand that anyone can claim wasn't "fully" met, no matter what the Palestinians do.

OK, but this has nothing to do with practicality. This is just you demonising Israel.

But why not talk about it during a ceasefire?

Oh yeah, that's right - Israel doesn't want those, because they could lead to bad things like hostages being released.

There you go again. Please link to your evidence that shows Israel doesn't want the hostages being released.
There is, on the other hand, ample evidence of the actual reason that Bibi won't agree to a ceasefire, and it has everything to do with not allowing Hamas time to rearm and rebuild.
 
for starters, because it's not feasible, and that is the point - by making demands that can never be met, Israel can just continue their assualt.

But more basically, because it would require a complete totalitarian control of a population, that can demand a oath on pain or incarceration.

If you believe in the rights of individuals, you wouldn't ask.

"it's not feasible" isn't an answer to why not - why isn't it feasible to ask your fighters to lay down their arms?
And what are you going on about with "Totalitarian control" are you claiming the entirety of Gaza is a HAMAS fighter currently engaging with the IDF?

"The rights of the individual to fire rockets at Jewish civilians shall never be infringed" is what you're going with here?
 
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Am I talking to children?

How do you objectively tell who is and isn't a fighter?

The IDF can't tell, or they wouldn't shoot so many children.

If you can, why don't you go to Gaza to help?
 
Am I talking to children?

How do you objectively tell who is and isn't a fighter?

I would look and see if they were fighting. That might give me a clue.

The IDF can't tell, or they wouldn't shoot so many children.

I can only assume that Hamas apologists get some kind of twisted kick from saying these kinds of things.
Evidence, please, that the IDF is deliberately shooting children in the mistaken impression that they are Hamas fighters.

If you can, why don't you go to Gaza to help?

Why not go yourself? You clearly think you've got all the answers.
 
Am I talking to children?

How do you objectively tell who is and isn't a fighter?

The IDF can't tell, or they wouldn't shoot so many children.

If you can, why don't you go to Gaza to help?

Why does it matter who is or isn't a fighter? What matters is what the leadership of said fighters has to say. Do you think when Germany of Japan surrendered, each individual citizen had to personally wave the white flag before the allies accepted the they'd won?

Step one: HAMAS leadership releases a statement saying they intend to lay down weapons and cease firing. Why can't this happen?
 
Why does it matter who is or isn't a fighter? What matters is what the leadership of said fighters has to say. Do you think when Germany of Japan surrendered, each individual citizen had to personally wave the white flag before the allies accepted the they'd won?

Step one: HAMAS leadership releases a statement saying they intend to lay down weapons and cease firing. Why can't this happen?

MD: he's picking up on your 'why not' comment to make a ridiculous argument.
 
ah, of course.

We are the Good Guys, they are the Bad Guys, hence what we do is Good, and if it's not, it's because the Bad Guys made us do it.

It's 9/11 and the Iraq occupation all over again.
1.We are always right
2.they are always wrong
3 if we are not right, see 1.

Who do you need to tell you that what Israel is doing is indiscriminate killing?
Do you trust the UN?
The Arab Press?
The opposition Israeli Press?
Doctors without Borders?
The families of the hostages?

No, I don't have the answers, but I don't think that killing until someone has an answer is a legitimate strategy.

Let's keep some things in mind:
- Israel is not able or willing to formulate a Victory Condition can could be verified. This is admitted by the War Cabinet and Netanyahu
- during the fighting, the IDF has rescued 3 and killed at least 5 hostages, and, according to Hamas, another 30 hostages have died in the bombing and fighting, as well
as 28,000 Palestinians.
- during the ceasefire, more than 70 hostages were released
- over a 100 hostages remain in Hamas control

just looking at this - what do you think, honestly, is the better strategy to free the hostages?
More fighting or more negotiation?

Keep in mind that no one said that you can't keep fighting AFTER the hostages are free.

But given the resistance Netanyahu and his Warmongers have against any hostage negotiation it seems clear that they would rather see the hostages killed than returned in a deal.

What is your priority?
Saving people or killing people?

It is telling that the person asking for less killing is accused of supporting Hamas and hating Israel.
 
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ah, of course.

We are the Good Guys, they are the Bad Guys, hence what we do is Good, and if it's not, it's because the Bad Guys made us do it.

It's 9/11 and the Iraq occupation all over again.
1.We are always right
2.they are always wrong
3 if we are not right, see 1.

Who do you need to tell you that what Israel is doing is indiscriminate killing?
Do you trust the UN?
The Arab Press?
The opposition Israeli Press?
Doctors without Borders?
The families of the hostages?

No, I don't have the answers, but I don't think that killing until someone has an answer is a legitimate strategy.

Let's keep some things in mind:
- Israel is not able or willing to formulate a Victory Condition can could be verified. This is admitted by the War Cabinet and Netanyahu
- during the fighting, the IDF has rescued 3 and killed at least 5 hostages, and, according to Hamas, another 30 hostages have died in the bombing and fighting, as well
as 28,000 Palestinians.
- during the ceasefire, more than 70 hostages were released
- over a 100 hostages remain in Hamas control

just looking at this - what do you think, honestly, is the better strategy to free the hostages?
More fighting or more negotiation?

Keep in mind that no one said that you can't keep fighting AFTER the hostages are free.

But given the resistance Netanyahu and his Warmongers have against any hostage negotiation it seems clear that they would rather see the hostages killed than returned in a deal.

What is your priority?
Saving people or killing people?

Cool story bro - why can't HAMAS leadership surrender?
 
Who do you need to tell you that what Israel is doing is indiscriminate killing?
Do you trust the UN?
The Arab Press?
The opposition Israeli Press?
Doctors without Borders?
The families of the hostages?

.

That’s easy. When it comes to Israel, none of those groups can be trusted.
 
What incentive is there to surrender? The lucky ones will be tried and executed. The unlucky ones will languish the rest of their lives in Israeli prisons.

Gazan civilians no longer dying for nothing would be my first thought
 
1 HAMAS don't care about civilians

2 The more civilians die the greater the propaganda value HAMAS think they get.

another one who doesn't get how Terrorism works.

every killed Palestinians is a win for Hamas, as Israel digs itself deeper into a hole it will probably never escape.

Hamas has won already.
The only question now is by how much - and the IDF is making sure that they win all the way.
 
another one who doesn't get how Terrorism works.

every killed Palestinians is a win for Hamas, as Israel digs itself deeper into a hole it will probably never escape.

Hamas has won already.
The only question now is by how much - and the IDF is making sure that they win all the way.

And once HAMAS has been completely destroyed, its victory will be complete!!!111

yep, absolutely....

smh
 
And once HAMAS has been completely destroyed, its victory will be complete!!!111

yep, absolutely....

smh

:facepalm


you know what all Hamas fighters, by and large, have in common?
The IDF killed one of their family members.

The IDF is conducting the greatest Terrorist recruitment drive in history.
And they know it.

how precociously naïve do you have to be to think that a "destroyed" Hamas wouldn't instantly be replaced by a Hamas 2.0 ?
 
:facepalm


you know what all Hamas fighters, by and large, have in common?
The IDF killed one of their family members.

The IDF is conducting the greatest Terrorist recruitment drive in history.
And they know it.

how precociously naïve do you have to be to think that a "destroyed" Hamas wouldn't instantly be replaced by a Hamas 2.0 ?

A recruitment drive you're helping them with
But since they've already won and it would be a war-crime to expect them to surrender, Israel should just give them everything they want yes? What is it they want The Great Zagana - with up to date sources and not 10 year old quotes like Hercules tried to palm off on us
 
:facepalm


you know what all Hamas fighters, by and large, have in common?
The IDF killed one of their family members.

The IDF is conducting the greatest Terrorist recruitment drive in history.
And they know it.

how precociously naïve do you have to be to think that a "destroyed" Hamas wouldn't instantly be replaced by a Hamas 2.0 ?

You really are making a great case for obliterating the entire population of Gaza - or at the very least driving them out of Gaza completely. There can't be a HAMAS 2 if there's no people to join...

Since Israel has apparently "lost" already, what is actually stopping them doing so?

And would Israel survive such an action?

Yep they would.
 
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"...as well as 28,000 Palestinians dead" -- snippet from TGZ

I take issue with blanket statements like that.
For two reasons, one, it's not accurate, because the Hamas-run Health Ministry is saying at least 29,000 as of yesterday. Not including 'dozens' of jihadist maniacs who lost their lives in the war just overnight. So, the figure is climbing, and still no indication Hamas is willing to put a stop to it, using the most obvious means available -- release all hostages and return all cadavers, unconditionally.
That means Oren Shaul and Hadar Goldin, as well, to be clear about that point.

Two, because according to that figure, we have no indication regarding the number of fighters/combatants except for IDF claims of over 10,000 put to eternal rest.
https://www.jpost.com/israel-hamas-war/article-787882

~ Another successful day of IDF operations against fighters (as identified objectively), and Hezbollah is also in the IAF crosshairs.

~ Egypt may have to explain why they're harboring a fugitive (and providing aid and comfort to Israel's enemies). Saudi newspaper 'ElAph' reported today that Sinwar may have fled from Rafah to Egypt.

~
 
How pleased you sound.

no, I am not.
I'm suffering because I feel empathy with EVERYONE how is getting hurt.

that is why I want all killing to stop, by everyone.

I understand that for you, psychologically, I have to be The Bad Guy.

But actually, I am only repeating what the people most affected by Oct 7th say, and that is families of the hostages - their wishes are being completely ignored by the Israeli leadership, and their loved ones are unnecessarily put in danger.

Why do you believe that you know better how to deal with Gaza than someone in Israel who is fearing for the life of their loved one?
 
You really are making a great case for obliterating the entire population of Gaza - or at the very least driving them out of Gaza completely. There can't be a HAMAS 2 if there's no people to join...

Since Israel has apparently "lost" already, what is actually stopping them doing so?

And would Israel survive such an action?

Yep they would.

your catching on.

Indeed the only way to explain why the IDF is doing what it is doing is to provide a reason the purge all of Palestine.
 
The Great Zaganza - since HAMAS has already won, what do Israel need to give them to stop the bloodshed - And recent, sourced evidence for what they want, not what you think they want
 

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