Moderated General Israel/Palestine discussion thread - Part 4

[JoeMorgue]

But neither does Israel. And Likud will not recognise the right of the Palestinians to a independent state and are committed to the illegal settlement of the West Bank.

Hamas has "Destroying Israel is the only reason we get out of bed in the morning" in the preamble to its Constitution.

No two sides of any conflict in history have been perfect.

A vague, glib "But the other side isn't perfect either" is meaningless.

"Hamas gets to launch terrorist attacks until Israel achieves some level of transandental metaphysical perfection" is not an answer.

And before anyone "Nobody is saying that" ats me then what ARE the reasonable levels of "mistakes" (or allowances for the simple fact that **** happens in conflict or however you want to conceptualize it.) are the sides allowed here?

 

[Leumas]

And you've been asked a dozen questions and haven't answers. Deal with it.

Here is another you will not ever answer....

There is this boy who today is living in a house which he inherited from his father who took away the house by the gun from the homeless guy who is currently and presently living under a bridge in a cardboard box.

Should he just go kill the homeless guy to alleviate his "white guilt" even though he is an Indian from the South of India?

And if the homeless guy attacks him he can just go kill all the homeless under the same bridge and rest assured that he was only RETALIATING against the attacks by the worthless inhuman animals living under the bridge like savage dogs?​

 

[Leumas]

Hamas has "Destroying Israel is the only reason we get out of bed in the morning" in the preamble to its Constitution.

And the Zionists have this

A generation of settlement are we, and without the steel helmet and the maw of the cannon we shall not plant a tree, nor build a house. Our children shall not have lives to live if we do not dig shelters; and without the barbed wire fence and the machine gun, we shall not pave a path nor drill for water. The millions of Jews, annihilated without a land, peer out at us from the ashes of Israeli history and command us to settle and rebuild a land for our people.

No two sides of any conflict in history have been perfect.

WOW... so the British who went to India and raped and pillaged the subcontinent were just much victims of their Imperialism as the Indians who fought to liberate India?

A vague, glib "But the other side isn't perfect either" is meaningless.

That is "white guilt" alleviation casuistry...

"Hamas gets to launch terrorist attacks until Israel achieves some level of transandental metaphysical perfection" is not an answer.

No it is not.... the answer is

South Africa​

<snipped whaat??>

But whatever that was.... the answer is yet again

South Africa​

 

[Ziggurat]

No it is not.... the answer is

South Africa​

That's not an answer, that's a platitude. And again, have you actually paid attention to what's going on in South Africa? Because it's not a success story.

 

[JoeMorgue]

Bolded gibberish in larger type is still gibberish.

 

[Ziggurat]

Bolded gibberish in larger type is still gibberish.

And capslock isn't your friend either.

Here, Leumas, let me give you a helpful tutorial.

Tips for Not Appearing Crazy on the Internet

The only tip Leumas is following is not writing super long posts.

 

[Leumas]

...
Here, Leumas, let me give you a helpful tutorial.

And let me give you a tutorial about logic.... when the ad hominems and invectives and red herrings and strawmen start parading... it is a sure sign of having nothing rational to rebut the facts.


Thanks for letting me know...

 

[Ziggurat]

And let me give you a tutorial about logic.... when the ad hominems and invectives and red herrings and strawmen start parading... it is a sure sign of having nothing rational to rebut the facts.


Thanks for letting me know...

Dude, everyone can practically see the spittle flecks on your posts, and you're lecturing me about invectives? As for facts, you keep making ******** claims like the Taliban being created by the US to fight the Soviets, when they didn't even exist until years after the fall of the Soviet Union. You're avoiding talking about facts, not me. Instead, you keep making up irrelevant scenarios and spouting platitudes. You have yet to say anything rational. If that observation offends you, if you think that constitutes an ad hominem, I can't do anything about that. Suck it up, buttercup. Try actually making a coherent argument based on actual facts, not your personal head cannon.

 

[Leumas]

Bolded gibberish in larger type is still gibberish.

So you think the liberation of the black South Africans from centuries of torment and confinement in concentration camps by the Afrikaans... is gibberish?

Do you think Nelson Mandela was a rabid terrorist who deserved all those years in jail for his crimes?

And all those criminals in the Bantustans ought to have been happy about the Apartheid and taken it peacefully and not resist at all?

And the International world was wrong in forcing the Afrikaans to stop their crimes against humanity?

 

[JoeMorgue]

So you think the liberation of the black South Africans from centuries of torment and confinement in concentration camps by the Afrikaans... is gibberish?

Do you think Nelson Mandela was a rabid terrorist who deserved all those years in jail for his crimes?

And all those criminals in the Bantustans ought to have been happy about the Apartheid and taken it peacefully and not resist at all?

And the International world was wrong in forcing the Afrikaans to stop their crimes against humanity?

I think you are not acting as an honest agent in this discussion, are not actually reading what people are saying, and are more interesting in putting on an act then having an opinion.

I will engage with you when you no longer do that if I find it worth my time.

 

[Ziggurat]

So you think the liberation of the black South Africans from centuries of torment and confinement in concentration camps by the Afrikaans... is gibberish?

Your reference to it in a thread not involving South Africa is nonsense. Do you get how those two things (meaning the event itself, and your attempted use of it here) are different?

No, of course you don't.

 

[Leumas]

Dude, everyone can practically see the spittle flecks on your posts, and you're lecturing me about invectives? As for facts, you keep making ******** claims like the Taliban being created by the US to fight the Soviets, when they didn't even exist until years after the fall of the Soviet Union. You're avoiding talking about facts, not me. Instead, you keep making up irrelevant scenarios and spouting platitudes. You have yet to say anything rational. If that observation offends you, if you think that constitutes an ad hominem, I can't do anything about that. Suck it up, buttercup. Try actually making a coherent argument based on actual facts, not your personal head cannon.

Thanks yet again... for when such emotive ad hominems and invectives and red herrings and strawmen start parading... it is a sure sign of having nothing rational to rebut the facts.


Thanks for letting me know...

...claims like the Taliban being created by the US to fight the Soviets, when they didn't even exist until years after the fall of the Soviet Union....

But on the other hand I do not deploy emotional invectives because I do indeed have facts that rebut your lack of knowledge of the facts.... which of course you will refuse to read and then formulate more

... spittle flecks on your post...

Here it is... an arrant riving of your above claim

How were the Taliban formed?
The group was formed in the early 1990s by Afghan mujahideen, or Islamic guerrilla fighters, who had resisted the Soviet occupation of Afghanistan (1979–89) with the covert backing of the CIA and its Pakistani counterpart, the Inter-Services Intelligence directorate (ISI).

 

[JoeMorgue]

Again you are here defending the side of an armed conflict that would kill you without hesitant the first chance they got, play soccer ball with your head in the street, and sleep like a baby tonight after doing it.

I'm not dropping this. The level of dishonesty in this discussion where the simple fact that one side has declared THEMSELVES our mortal enemy simply isn't being acknowledged by the people defending them is not some piddling little side detail.

Hamas would kill literally every single person has come to their defense in this thread.

They don't care that "No I was on your side, I was one of the good ones."

 

[Leumas]

A Solution For the Israel/Palestine mayhem

Your reference to it in a thread not involving South Africa is nonsense.

My reference to it is as an example for a SOLUTION to the Israel/Palestine problem which many posters here seem to think is impossible or too complicated.

Do you get how those two things (meaning the event itself, and your attempted use of it here) are different?

Just as the UN and the rest of the world FORCED the Afrikaans to dissolve their apartheid... so can they also force the Zionists to do the same for their apartheid.


Your attempt at denying the direct parallel between the Zionists and the Afrikaans is yet again belied by facts and reality

Israel and South Africa have one thing above all else in common: they are both situated in a predominantly hostile world inhabited by dark peoples.

Do you not see how you are denying that a SOLUTION for the Israel/Palestine issue can be achieved just as one was achieved in South Africa.

All the world has to do is force the Zionists to acquiesce and stop their racism and apartheid... just as the world forced the Afrikaans to do the same for theirs.

Do you see that?

No, of course you don't.

 

[Ziggurat]

Here it is... an arrant riving of your above claim

Your link confirms what I said, it doesn't contradict it. The Taliban were only formed after the fall of the Soviet Union. Some people who fought against the Soviet Union later joined the Taliban, but the organization of the Taliban never fought against the Soviets, contrary to your prior claims. And the Taliban (which, again, is an organization) wasn't formed by the USA, also contrary to your prior claim. Its primary support came from Pakistan.

You're really bad at this.

 

[Leumas]

Again you are here defending the side of an armed conflict that would kill you without hesitant the first chance they got, play soccer ball with your head in the street, and sleep like a baby tonight after doing it.....

This interview with an American Nurse on CNN completely belies your above repeated clearly baseless ASSUMPTION and bare assertion....

But of course you will never listen to a single second of it... because otherwise you will see how wrong you are.

 

[JoeMorgue]

Real talk and I want to see if anyone here is honest enough to give me an answer.

Fine. We completely acquiesce to Hamas. We roll over 100% and show our bellies. We hand them a map, go "Here you can totally draw the borders of your own country, no restrictions, whatever you think is fair and we, the international community, the UN, NATO, the United States, the European Union, the 34rd Boy Scout Trope of Omaha Nebraska, the Teamsters, the 1985 Chicago Bears Shufflin' Crew, and the League of Women's Voters will all use 100% of our military, financial, and diplomatic power to enforce those borders from now until the end of time."

Look me in the eye (metaphorically obviously) and tell me which of the following outcomes of that are (g)you stupid enough to believe will actually happen?

1. Hamas and the "Palestinians" are finally happy and the violence stops.
2. Hamas takes only over the contested territories and doesn't automatically and without pause for breath claim all of Israel as theirs.
3. On the rare chance #2 doesn't happen the Muslim World wouldn't up and decided that whatever Israel is left isn't also theirs down the line.
4. If through some miracle there is an Israel left long term the Muslim World would stop trying to wipe it off the map because hey we gave them what they want.

 

[Leumas]

... The Taliban were only formed after the fall of the Soviet Union. Some people who fought against the Soviet Union later joined the Taliban,

Wrong... the article states clearly that the founders of the organization are the ones who fought against the Soviets.... read it again... you clearly did not read it carefully.

Your above statement is arrantly wrong as evinced by the article's words.

but the organization of the Taliban never fought against the Soviets,

do you know what Casuistry is?

 

[Hercules56]

Except in Israel where INDIANS and Africans and Russians and Ukrainians and Germans and Polish etc. can THUMP the poppycock of the TORAH as a title deed from an imaginary sky daddy of a mythical peripatetic Sumerian pimp.

With the "Liberal White Guilt" aiding and abetting and arming and giving annually BILLION$$$ and hoodwinking the crimes going on there.... to alleviate their "Liberal White Guilt"... while decrying the Palestinians for resisting present and clear CRIMES against them as "Liberal White Guilt" pulling.... wow!!!

Murdering innocent civilians is not "resistance".

Its murder, plain & simple. Illegal under international law.

Even if the Palestinian Arabs don't care about such laws.

 

[Leumas]

The Precedent for a just and successful solution to the Israel/Palestine problem

... tell me which of the following outcomes of that are (g)you ... believe will actually happen?

The whole world has a precedent with a clear and irrefragable parallel between South African Afrikaans apartheid and abuse of their "brown people" and the Israeli Zionists' apartheid and abuse of their "brown people".

And the UN and THE WORLD achieved a solution for the Afrikaans' atrocity... and as a precedent and a clear irrefutable parallel... the world can have a solution for the Zionists' atrocity by using the same method.

I suggest you read about the HISTORY of how the South African solution was achieved and what were its outcomes and what is South Africa today.

That is the correct answer... none of your assumed "predictions".

Look at the South African precedent for a solution of racism and Apartheid and confining humans in Bantustans concentration camps.

And if justice still has any meaning instead of MIGHT IS RIGHT... and if decency and morality and humanitarian considerations are a primary concern instead of Getting Jesus to have a Mulligan and applying incorrectly interpreted verses from a book of fairy tales written by miserable people 2500 years ago... then the South African Model for a solution is the only SANE way to proceed.

 

[webfusion]

Decency, morality, and humanitarian considerations are not in the lexicon of HAMAS.

Which is why their entire conglomeration of weapons is being eviscerated. Along with the men deploying them.
The media just released video of a huge detonation of a HAMAS rocket depot, my goodness, it was spectactular!
I think the fireball was visible from Tel Aviv.

 

[Hercules56]

The whole world has a precedent with a clear and irrefragable parallel between South African Afrikaans apartheid and abuse of their "brown people" and the Israeli Zionists' apartheid and abuse of their "brown people".

And the UN and THE WORLD achieved a solution for the Afrikaans' atrocity... and as a precedent and a clear irrefutable parallel... the world can have a solution for the Zionists' atrocity by using the same method.

I suggest you read about the HISTORY of how the South African solution was achieved and what were its outcomes and what is South Africa today.

That is the correct answer... none of your assumed "predictions".

Look at the South African precedent for a solution of racism and Apartheid and confining humans in Bantustans concentration camps.

And if justice still has any meaning instead of MIGHT IS RIGHT... and if decency and morality and humanitarian considerations are a primary concern instead of Getting Jesus to have a Mulligan and applying incorrectly interpreted verses from a book of fairy tales written by miserable people 2500 years ago... then the South African Model for a solution is the only SANE way to proceed.

The South African model is simply democracy. One man, one vote.

Would that satisfy you?

 

[Ziggurat]

Wrong... the article states clearly that the founders of the organization are the ones who fought against the Soviets....

And? Those individuals weren't the Taliban when they fought the Soviets. And the USA didn't create the Taliban.

read it again... you clearly did not read it carefully.

That's rich, since it contradicts what you said.

do you know what Casuistry is?

Do you know what causality is?

There's nothing unsound about noting that the Taliban never fought the Soviets. That would in fact have been impossible, since they never overlapped in time.

 

[lionking]

Just as the UN and the rest of the world FORCED the Afrikaans to dissolve their apartheid... so can they also force the Zionists to do the same for their apartheid.

Why should Israel take any notice of the UN? A body that condemns its very existence and passes resolutions calling for its destruction on a regular basis?

The UN lacks credibility in today’s world. Nations, including Australia, ignore its declarations and resolutions when it doesn’t suit their national interest. The UN is largely a joke.

 

[webfusion]

The South African model is simply democracy. One man, one vote.

Would that satisfy you?

I'm not sure if you are aware of this, but in Israel, we literally discard and ignore votes for parties that don't eventually cross the electoral threshold.
If you voted for that party, your vote is wasted.
Instead of One (person) One Vote, they ended up with One (person) No Vote.

And, from a purely political standpoint, the Likud gets a decent share of Palestinian votes (or non-Jewish Israelis, or however you prefer to label Israel's varied and multicultural non-Jewish population)
https://aijac.org.au/fresh-air/54490

 

[webfusion]

Turtle Bay in NYC can expect to become besieged.
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/09/nyregion/protests-israel-hamas-palestinians-nyc.html

 

[Hercules56]

I'm not sure if you are aware of this, but in Israel, we literally discard and ignore votes for parties that don't eventually cross the electoral threshold.
If you voted for that party, your vote is wasted.
Instead of One (person) One Vote, they ended up with One (person) No Vote.

And, from a purely political standpoint, the Likud gets a decent share of Palestinian votes (or non-Jewish Israelis, or however you prefer to label Israel's varied and multicultural non-Jewish population)
https://aijac.org.au/fresh-air/54490

Palestinian Arabs in the West Bank and Gaza don't get to vote in Israeli elections.

 

[Hercules56]

Turtle Bay in NYC can expect to become besieged.
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/09/nyregion/protests-israel-hamas-palestinians-nyc.html

Good. Peaceful democracy is a good thing.

 

[webfusion]

Good. Peaceful democracy is a good thing.

It won't remain peaceful for much longer.

I'm going out to purchase a shotgun during Black Friday sales (Dick's Sporting Goods has a deal for a nice home-defense pump-action 12g. for only $187.49 )

 

[Hercules56]

It won't remain peaceful for much longer.

I'm going out to purchase a shotgun during Black Friday sales (Dick's Sporting Goods has a deal for a nice home-defense pump-action 12g. for only $187.49 )

Is that a prediction or a wish?

I hope you're familiar with the gun laws in your state. If you threaten peaceful people with a firearm you can be locked up for a long time. This isn't the movie you know.

 

[webfusion]

Palestinian Arabs in the West Bank and Gaza don't get to vote in Israeli elections.

They are not voting for anything, as it happens.

By the way, why would anyone think that non-citizens 'get' to vote in Israeli elections?

 

[Hercules56]

They are not voting for anything, as it happens.

By the way, why would anyone think that non-citizens 'get' to vote in Israeli elections?

Apartheid South Africa also didn't let millions of people vote, even though they were under their control. That didn't last forever.

 

[webfusion]

Is that a prediction or a wish?

I hope you're familiar with the gun laws in your state. If you threaten peaceful people with a firearm you can be locked up for a long time. This isn't the movie you know.

Prediction based on the increasingly violent actions of 'pro-Palestine' mobs (and some individual acts) against Jews.
Having a shotgun carried openly in my state is legal. There's also the matter of the Second Amendment, where the bearing of arms is a fundamental right and cannot be infringed.

If anyone gets into any proximate altercation with me, and/or attempts to take or gain control over my weapon, they will be splattered with buckshot immediately, no warning, no "get back" (especially if they are supported by friends who try to flank me).

See: Kyle Rittenhouse

 

[webfusion]

Apartheid South Africa also didn't let millions of people vote, even though they were under their control. That didn't last forever.

Palestinians in Gaza are not under our political control. Neither are the Palestinian National Authority residents a part of our political system.

But, that's a subject for next year, or several years down the road, and maybe we'll get into it during Israel/Palestine discussion thread, part 10.

 

[Ziggurat]

Palestinian Arabs in the West Bank and Gaza don't get to vote in Israeli elections.

And Mexicans don't get to vote in American elections (and vice versa). What's your point?

 

[webfusion]

And Mexicans don't get to vote in American elections (and vice versa). What's your point?

However, those in Guam and Puerto Rico do.
Puerto Rico's nearly 3.2 million residents are U.S. citizens but they aren't allowed to vote for POTUS.
(as an unincorporated territory and not a state)

Let's ask the residents of Gaza if they're OK with becoming Israeli citizens in 2024. Make it a Gaza-Strip Referendum. "Are you willing to be part of the Israeli political system, and granted citizenship, as an unincorporated territory?"
(By the way, Puerto Ricans consistently reject becoming the 51st US State when asked).

 

[Hercules56]

However, those in Guam and Puerto Rico do.
Puerto Rico's nearly 3.2 million residents are U.S. citizens but they aren't allowed to vote for POTUS.
(as an unincorporated territory and not a state)

Let's ask the residents of Gaza if they're OK with becoming Israeli citizens in 2024. Make it a Gaza-Strip Referendum. "Are you willing to be part of the Israeli political system, and granted citizenship, as an unincorporated territory?"
(By the way, Puerto Ricans consistently reject becoming the 51st US State when asked).

Yes, ask the Palestinians Arabs of Gaza and the West Bank if they want Israeli citizenship. That would be a great step in the right direction.

 

[Hercules56]

Palestinians in Gaza are not under our political control. Neither are the Palestinian National Authority residents a part of our political system.

But, that's a subject for next year, or several years down the road, and maybe we'll get into it during Israel/Palestine discussion thread, part 10.

ALL Palestinian Arabs in Gaza and the West Bank are under Israeli control. Israel controls the overall security situation and the borders. Nothing gets in or out of the West Bank without Israel saying ok. Legally they are still Occupied according to the 4thGC.

 

[Hercules56]

Prediction based on the increasingly violent actions of 'pro-Palestine' mobs (and some individual acts) against Jews.
Having a shotgun carried openly in my state is legal. There's also the matter of the Second Amendment, where the bearing of arms is a fundamental right and cannot be infringed.

If anyone gets into any proximate altercation with me, and/or attempts to take or gain control over my weapon, they will be splattered with buckshot immediately, no warning, no "get back" (especially if they are supported by friends who try to flank me).

See: Kyle Rittenhouse

Do you live in a SYG state?

 

[webfusion]

I said political control. That task officially falls upon the PNA. If they want to disband the PNA, and declare their loyalty to, and respect for Israel as citizens, and participate in developing the JewishState alongside Zionists that's something to consider, I guess.
It's pretty far fetched.

The 4thGC? The Geneva Conventions do not define occupation. Yet, the elements of an occupation can be found in Article 42 of the 1907 Hague Regulations.

Who did the Israelis take (& occupy) the territories from? Not the Palestinians.
After 1967, Israel was a non-belligerent occupier. We sought to encourage a path towards self-determination for the residents of these (previously) Jordanian & Egyptian lands.
All we got was No No No.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khartoum_Resolution