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Evolution and abiogenesis

steenkh

Philosopher
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I often see people here and elsewhere who argue that the creationists are not entirely wrong when they think that abiogenesis is a part of evolution. One poster said that it felt like a "cop out" when we distinguish between the two.

I wonder why? I cannot see any reason why abiogenesis can be part of evolution, and I cannot see why we should satisfy those people who think they should be. I do not want to discuss science history, because it may well be that the two were once considered two sides of the same coin, but how the modern view is like.

As I see it, evolution is much more than just biological evolution. Evolution can be stated as what happens when there is an error prone duplication mechanism, and lots of generations. Isolation will then bring forward generations that have little resemblance to the starting. Life has such a mechanism, and the multitude of species is the result.

I do not think that we have other examples where new "species" have resulted, but I believe we have examples where errors in duplication of the Bible have resulted in new theology, particularly when translations are involved. So while we can think of other things in evolutionary terms, it would not make sense if we needed to know how the first generation came to be.

Besides, none of the terms that are used for evolution, like genes, or alleles, make sense in conjunction with abiogenesis.
 
I used "cop out" because I think drawing a strict line there (at first life capable of evolution) artificially limits our argument for no real purpose.

The creation v. evolution debate is about how we got here - that is, how the living things around us came to be as we see them now. In this conversation I think I should be able to challenge the idea of God as creator and would think it shallow if creationists simply told me that wherever and whatever God meant, that wasn't really part of the story - God's a given and creation only happens after God is around. But, I would say, "Doesn't creation depend on having a creator to create?"

Now, I know the objection is with how evolution as a science is framed, in that the subject matter only concerns itself with life forms capable of evolution. On the other hand, we don't shy away from adding chemistry or physics into the mix when called for. Abiogenesis is as much a part of the picture as element formation in stars is part of the picture for geologists and tectonics - it isn't exactly on point in explanations about how the earth's crust gets around, but it absolutely is part of the broad picture we have of the world/universe.

And I very much want an explanation that doesn't include God or creation. So, if a creationist says, "OK, you convinced me, evolution happened (as they do with "micro" evolution), but God created the first life capable of evolution." - I would reject that in favor of a naturalistic explanation instead.

I know we sometimes think part of the battle is defining terms correctly, but to me it comes off as uselessly anal to insist creationists get the scope of evolution correct when the larger picture is just as robust. If it actually answers the objections they have, why not "go there"?

Evolution depends on abiogenesis as much as planetary formation depends on gravity. You can't get the more advanced theory without the predicate. Frankly, I don't see why abiogenesis shouldn't be part of evolutionary science and I expect it will be the more we understand it.

ETA: I looked up a few textbooks on evolutionary biology. Of the five I looked at, all included something about the origins of life (aka "emergence" of life) in the table of contents.
 
"Evolution depends on abiogenesis"

Actually , no.

The fact life *existed* at all can have multiple reason, panspermia, abiogenesis, alien sneezing , magic, gods.

Evolution is *not* depending on the specific manner life appeared. It only model how it will develop and change over time depending on the environment.

Which is why your position is not good. Evolution never was about how "life" got there, it was always about how it continue changing. It never pretended explaining how life started.

And this is the big why , evolution and abiogenesis have nothing to do with each other. And that strict line is necessary to properly frame the debate.

"The creation v. evolution debate is about how we got here" well, see the problem is that it does not matter for that debate how the first proto bacteria came there. Whatever, you may tell it is god which put those proto bacteria there, I don't care. What i do care is that it is inescapable that creationism reject the billion of years of evolution which came afterward. It rejects our ancestry.

In other word, the hang over abiogenesis does not matter. It is an attempt of confusion by creationist (intentional or not). And that is why the two must be separated properly.

By trying to frame it as a "greater" top level debate you are making it a useless philosophical argument. Or attempting to hide the fact that evolution is what is rejected.
 
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I used "cop out" because I think drawing a strict line there (at first life capable of evolution) artificially limits our argument for no real purpose.

The creation v. evolution debate is about how we got here - that is, how the living things around us came to be as we see them now. In this conversation I think I should be able to challenge the idea of God as creator and would think it shallow if creationists simply told me that wherever and whatever God meant, that wasn't really part of the story - God's a given and creation only happens after God is around. But, I would say, "Doesn't creation depend on having a creator to create?"
I do not think we should redefine scientific terms in order to make them more suitable for debate with creationists.


And I very much want an explanation that doesn't include God or creation. So, if a creationist says, "OK, you convinced me, evolution happened (as they do with "micro" evolution), but God created the first life capable of evolution." - I would reject that in favor of a naturalistic explanation instead.
But, depending on how "God" is defined, the creationist could be right. And evolution would not suffer the least dent from that. Only the naturalistic hypothesis of abiogenesis would be wrong

I know we sometimes think part of the battle is defining terms correctly, but to me it comes off as uselessly anal to insist creationists get the scope of evolution correct when the larger picture is just as robust. If it actually answers the objections they have, why not "go there"?
I do not see why you think the larger picture is just as robust. I also think that there is no God, but I cannot frame this belief into a scientific testable theory. A credible abiogenesis pathway without God would help a lot in making my world view "robust".

Evolution depends on abiogenesis as much as planetary formation depends on gravity.
No. Why do you think that?

ETA: I looked up a few textbooks on evolutionary biology. Of the five I looked at, all included something about the origins of life (aka "emergence" of life) in the table of contents.
Good point, but I only see it as an attempt to show that we are not ignoring the subject. There is no doubt that the two are related: a naturalistic abiogenesis will inevitably lead to evolution, but evolution will happen with any kind of abiogenesis.
 
All things capable of imperfect self-replication will change over time. The better reproductions survive, the worse ones don't. Evolution is just what we call it when living things do that.

Before there were living things, there were self-replicating particles. Molecules much simpler than DNA or RNA that attracted nearby smaller molecules and created a copy of themselves. The better copies survived, the worse ones didn't. After some time, the growing complexity made these particles "life."

Evolution is just the word for when living things change over time. Self-replication with modification is when the process happens to anything else. Abiogenesis involved essentially evolution, by another name.
 
Self replication only seems complicated to us because we didn't understand it. Using Mandelbrot's fractals, he points out that it's actually a very simple and obvious thing and once we understood it we were able to create our own self replications in technology.

I think a large part of the problem is that Creationists conflate our understanding of how something works, with complicated or sophisticated "thinking" that in their mind is proof of a grand design or intelligent design.

When we consider the speed and ease of self replication and how evolution shows us how the same "thing" was reformed by environmental and other variables, the idea of abiogenesis really comes down to ONE atom being the start gate. It only needed one and then it took off.

It didn't need to be complicated at all. And the other myth is that it needed lots and lots of time. It needed time but there's no reason to think it's not a simple accident of the universe.

I also think Creationists often confuse "big bang" with "abiogenesis" Neither are necessarily dependent on the other even if one may have caused the other by accident.
 
I still have to revisit some old readings from my last swing around this topic a few years back. Nevertheless, the options as I see them are:

- Pre-biotic evolution; i.e., non-living complexity that transitions to biotic.
- Nothing else.

Meaning that panspermia and/or local systemic seeding among planets are just a shift in location, not fundamental means or process. What is missing is the ability to observe abiogenesis.
 
I was about to post on this subject based on this article

http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2016...ncestor-inhaled-hydrogen-underwater-volcanoes

Or New Scientist's take on it:

https://www.newscientist.com/articl...tor-of-all-life-on-earth-was-only-half-alive/

The 355 they found include some universal genes, such as a few involved in reading the genetic code. But others point to a very distinctive lifestyle.

One characteristic of almost all living cells is that they pump ions across a membrane to generate an electrochemical gradient, then use that gradient to make the energy-rich molecule ATP. Martin’s results suggest LUCA could not generate such a gradient, but could harness an existing one to make ATP.


That fits in beautifully with the idea that the first life got its energy from the natural gradient between vent water and seawater, and so was bound to these vents. Only later did the ability to generate gradients evolve, allowing life to break away from the vents on at least two occasions – one giving rise to the first archaea, the other to bacteria.

LUCA also appears to have had a gene for a “revolving door” protein that could swap sodium and hydrogen ions across this gradient. Earlier studies by Martin and Nick Lane of University College London suggest that such a protein would have been absolutely crucial for exploiting the natural gradient at vents.

One thing Martin didn’t find is genes involved in making amino acids, the building blocks of proteins. LUCA may have depended on amino acids produced spontaneously at vents, he says.

I've always thought that it was plausible to get error-prone self-replication first based on external resources, which would be subject to natural selection, and then systems that are more efficient at self replication, which would include the ability to seek or make their energy sources.
 
There's also a grey area, which is difficult to fully address directly with robust science: the transition from 'simple' molecules to 'something like a bacterium' (with genes, etc).

Whatever definition you give to 'life', it may be hard to pick 'the point' in that transition when 'life began'; quite a few, apparently sound, definitions of 'life' could be given, yet when applied to the transition, several may give quite inconsistent answers, and some may not be capable of an answer at all. Etc.

Then there's the potentially eye-popping discovery of 'life elsewhere', or 'other life' (whether fossil or living). That surely will not affect evolution - as a general concept (some details may be added) - but may radically affect abiogenesis.

My $0.02's worth ...
 
Seems simple enough to me.

Abiogenesis deals with how life first appeared.

Evolution doesn't really care about that, it deals with what happens once life has appeared.
 
Seems simple enough to me.

Abiogenesis deals with how life first appeared.

Evolution doesn't really care about that, it deals with what happens once life has appeared.

This is why it annoys me when Evolutionists give Creationists the time of day in a discussion. It's fact versus fiction. It's like watching an astronomer debate an astrologist.

They always want to drag it back to abiogenesis as if evolution is flawed because it can't answer that. Why should it? It's an entirely different field of study.
 
I can see how it might be different in a formal debate where defining limits is part of the rhetoric. But the real debate we have with creationists is about natural v. supernatural, not just creation v. evolution.

Does anyone think creationists are trying to trick us by bringing up abiogenesis? I don't. It's deeply linked to the topic, especially when explaining history in terms of "what came before that?"

Suppose I was berating a Young Earth Creationist...
"Well, you say the earth is only 6,000 years old, but the evidence shows it is much older."

"How so?"

"All sorts of ways - we have the mechanisms which formed the very mountains and valleys you see out there, we have evidence from the decay products of long lived isotopes, we even have plant material older than 6,000 years."

"Yeah, well those things don't matter. Creationism doesn't include geology, physics or plant biology."

"What!? Doesn't determining the age of the earth rely on those things? Now you are being silly."

"Look, the theory of creationism only deals with God creating the earth and the consequences for our immortal souls - the pesky details you are trying to bring up don't matter. Please limit yourself to the book of Genesis."
 
I can see how it might be different in a formal debate where defining limits is part of the rhetoric. But the real debate we have with creationists is about natural v. supernatural, not just creation v. evolution.

Does anyone think creationists are trying to trick us by bringing up abiogenesis? I don't. It's deeply linked to the topic, especially when explaining history in terms of "what came before that?"

Suppose I was berating a Young Earth Creationist...
"Well, you say the earth is only 6,000 years old, but the evidence shows it is much older."

"How so?"

"All sorts of ways - we have the mechanisms which formed the very mountains and valleys you see out there, we have evidence from the decay products of long lived isotopes, we even have plant material older than 6,000 years."

"Yeah, well those things don't matter. Creationism doesn't include geology, physics or plant biology."

"What!? Doesn't determining the age of the earth rely on those things? Now you are being silly."

"Look, the theory of creationism only deals with God creating the earth and the consequences for our immortal souls - the pesky details you are trying to bring up don't matter. Please limit yourself to the book of Genesis."

If you disregard abiogenesis, you can still explain how evoluton works, and it wouldn't fall apart, because the theory of evolution by natural selection is not dependent on abiogenesis. It isn't merely a case of not taking it into account, but of not being a necessity for the theory to be correct/incorrect.

If you add abiogenesis to evolution, evolution doesn't fall apart.

Add geology, biology, paleontology and the like to creationism and it all falls down.
 
Creationists are a bit strange because they propose a god that can do literally everything, but they still think he should stick to some rules. If the holy Bible claims that the world is 6000 years old, they feel it is cheating if God arranges everything to look as if it was older. You will never see a creationist claim that the fossils were put in the ground 6000 years ago to test our faith, although that would not be contrary to the scripture, and it would fir the evidence.

I still think that we should not accommodate science in order to make it easier to explain to creationists. And they will not appreciate the difference anyway. We have rock solid evidence for evolution, and mixing it with abiogenesis for which we have no evidence at all, but at most plausible hypotheses, will only whither away our advantage.
 
Creationists attempt to attack all of evolutionary science by pointing out that science does not know how life started. Sometimes they will even bring the big bang into the discussion.
 
Creationists are a bit strange because they propose a god that can do literally everything, but they still think he should stick to some rules. If the holy Bible claims that the world is 6000 years old, they feel it is cheating if God arranges everything to look as if it was older. You will never see a creationist claim that the fossils were put in the ground 6000 years ago to test our faith, although that would not be contrary to the scripture, and it would fir the evidence.

I still think that we should not accommodate science in order to make it easier to explain to creationists. And they will not appreciate the difference anyway. We have rock solid evidence for evolution, and mixing it with abiogenesis for which we have no evidence at all, but at most plausible hypotheses, will only whither away our advantage.

I wouldn't discuss abiogenesis with creationists -but when actually discussing the origin of life, it is interesting that this latest research seems to point at a halfway house - having to rely on already present electrochemical gradients rather than generating them themselves.

https://www.newscientist.com/articl...tor-of-all-life-on-earth-was-only-half-alive/

Seems simple enough to me.

Abiogenesis deals with how life first appeared.

Evolution doesn't really care about that, it deals with what happens once life has appeared.

I don't see why you have to limit evolution to living organisms. Viruses are definitely subject to evolution and aren't really living. I'd argue that prion proteins are a;so subject to natural selection. Similarly, I'd think that self-replication would have to come before life, and thus evolution would have to come before life.
 
Creationists are a bit strange because they propose a god that can do literally everything, but they still think he should stick to some rules. If the holy Bible claims that the world is 6000 years old, they feel it is cheating if God arranges everything to look as if it was older. You will never see a creationist claim that the fossils were put in the ground 6000 years ago to test our faith, although that would not be contrary to the scripture, and it would fir the evidence.

I still think that we should not accommodate science in order to make it easier to explain to creationists. And they will not appreciate the difference anyway. We have rock solid evidence for evolution, and mixing it with abiogenesis for which we have no evidence at all, but at most plausible hypotheses, will only whither away our advantage.


Exactly. It's giving young students the idea that the "alternative" to evolution is Creationism. It annoyed the crap out of me when Bill Nye sat down in a debate with a Creationist. How in the hell is it a "debate."

That's what I mean about, you wouldn't find Carl Sagan sitting down into a debate with an Astrologist. Maybe a one time thing.

But it's utter nonsense to sit and "discuss evolution" with Creationists as some sort of counter point. It's like discussing the space exploration with a Trekkie as the counterpoint.
 
Exactly. It's giving young students the idea that the "alternative" to evolution is Creationism. It annoyed the crap out of me when Bill Nye sat down in a debate with a Creationist. How in the hell is it a "debate."

That's what I mean about, you wouldn't find Carl Sagan sitting down into a debate with an Astrologist. Maybe a one time thing.

But it's utter nonsense to sit and "discuss evolution" with Creationists as some sort of counter point. It's like discussing the space exploration with a Trekkie as the counterpoint.

The old saw about wrestling with a pig springs to mind.

I think *someone* should debate with creationists - just not scientists.

There are plenty of scientifically-literate standup comedians who would be ideally suited to it. They could show that a layperson is all that is needed, and they have the speed of wit to keep on top of gish gallops etc.

A scientist, or someone who is known as a science populariser is going to be vulnerable to some pointless question about an obscure organism - "how can evolution explain the mating habits of the lesser throated octowarbler?" for example. Aggressive mockery in response is probably the best approach but not a game that a scientist can play without looking like a bully.
 
That's actually a great idea. I realized the impact this had when my son started telling me talking points from the Creationist angle. It's so WRONG to make kids think they are two different sides of the same coin.

I know they THINK that they are debunking them, but as you point out, to a scientist it's ducks in a barrel and they sophisticated arguments just make a Creationist think they are being manipulative anyway.
 
Evolution as it pertains to biology, is at the moment, distinguishable from a generalised concept of Evolution.

There is no evidence for using Evolution's generalised principles (as in "what happens when there is an error prone duplication mechanism, and lots of generations ...") as a basis for Abiogenesis thinking.

In fact, there are 'pointers' which lead to a view that Abiogenesis' outcomes could quite easily be highly sensitive to initial conditions. Any apparent determinable characteristics, supported by biological Evolution's abundant evidence base, then also distinguish Abiogenesis as being something quite different.

The scales of any conceivable self-similarities when considering a universal Abiogenesis, are at present, unknown and indeterminable, and using Evolution to justify these is fallacious, IMO.
 
That's actually a great idea. I realized the impact this had when my son started telling me talking points from the Creationist angle. It's so WRONG to make kids think they are two different sides of the same coin.

I know they THINK that they are debunking them, but as you point out, to a scientist it's ducks in a barrel and they sophisticated arguments just make a Creationist think they are being manipulative anyway.

Yes - would you rather someone akin to John Oliver/Penn Jillette or someone akin to Bill Nye debate evolution with a creationist?
 
There is no right or wrong (except using abiogenesis to support Intelligent Design, that is an unsupportable position) on where you draw the line on the continuum. Technically one can define the two terms as different things. In that sense, they are not the same, just as fertilization of the egg is different from the egg's development.

But conceptually, it's a continuum. Did abiogenesis just randomly start? No, first you had to have amino acids, then proteins, then replicating molecules and so on. Did those stages of the process not involve evolution? Did life begin when the molecules started replicating? Did it begin when the molecules began repeatedly forming in the primordial soup? They likely didn't become replicating molecules in one single event that continued. It is more likely there were many molecules (RNA is generally the accepted first) and that some of those went on to replicate, but not a single one.

Does the continuum start when RNA began to emerge from the soup? Does it start when RNA precursors emerged?

I tend to see abiogenesis as an arbitrary line on the continuum but also analogous to the fertilization of the egg in the process of development of a life form.
 
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Abiogenesis involves a gradual shift from "dead" chemistry to "life". That shift would obviously involve the same principles and mechanisms that biological evolution works by - imperfect self-replication and natural selection. So clearly they are closely related. Of course, Evolution is not dependent on exactly how it occur (I favour geothermal vents underground) but abiogenesis is a part of the history of evolution on this planet.
 
If the holy Bible claims that the world is 6000 years old...

It doesn't claim any such thing, and such a figure can only be obtained by problematic and selective manipulations of highly questionable comments in the OT. The "begat" of the OT can equally be translated as "was the father of" or "was an ancestor of" a given individual without specifying the intervening generations and actual numbers of years which are never presented in a chronological sense (nor were they originally meant to be). The date of 6004 BCE and "actually" October 13th at 9:00am Greenwich Mean Time (!) was concocted by Bishop James Ussher of Ireland in a work published in 1650.
 
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I often see people here and elsewhere who argue that the creationists are not entirely wrong when they think that abiogenesis is a part of evolution. One poster said that it felt like a "cop out" when we distinguish between the two.

I wonder why? I cannot see any reason why abiogenesis can be part of evolution, and I cannot see why we should satisfy those people who think they should be. I do not want to discuss science history, because it may well be that the two were once considered two sides of the same coin, but how the modern view is like.

As I see it, evolution is much more than just biological evolution. Evolution can be stated as what happens when there is an error prone duplication mechanism, and lots of generations. Isolation will then bring forward generations that have little resemblance to the starting. Life has such a mechanism, and the multitude of species is the result.

I do not think that we have other examples where new "species" have resulted, but I believe we have examples where errors in duplication of the Bible have resulted in new theology, particularly when translations are involved. So while we can think of other things in evolutionary terms, it would not make sense if we needed to know how the first generation came to be.

Besides, none of the terms that are used for evolution, like genes, or alleles, make sense in conjunction with abiogenesis.

What Darwin originally described was 1) Evolution by Natural Selection and the presumes some form of inheritance of characteristics. 2) Evolution by sexual selection. E.g. Peacocks tails. More modern evolutionary theory suggests that natural selection often stabilises species whilst loss of selective pressures may allow speciation. So I think you need to define a bit what you mean by evolution. Change happens but I guess the most important concept in evolution is that there is some sort of directive force.

I am not sure one can apply evolution easily to abiogenesis. Thermodynamics will dictate a direction of chemical reaction that is not evolution.
 
What Darwin originally described was 1) Evolution by Natural Selection and the presumes some form of inheritance of characteristics. 2) Evolution by sexual selection. E.g. Peacocks tails. More modern evolutionary theory suggests that natural selection often stabilises species whilst loss of selective pressures may allow speciation. So I think you need to define a bit what you mean by evolution. Change happens but I guess the most important concept in evolution is that there is some sort of directive force.

I am not sure one can apply evolution easily to abiogenesis. Thermodynamics will dictate a direction of chemical reaction that is not evolution.

I disagree.

The classic definition of life is that living organisms exhibit the following behaviours

  • Nutrition
  • Respiration
  • Excretion
  • Growth
  • Reproduction
  • Movement
  • Response

There is absolutely no reason to suppose that there was a soup of organic compounds that exhibited none of these and then they came together to exhibit all.

It looks to me as though reproduction would come first - after all we can replicate RNA/DNA chemically already. Once that is kicked off with an electrochemical gradient in place of the internal Respiration, Nutrition, and Excretion, then these would be subject to evolution - this is little difference from a virus hijacking a cell to do the same thing, and viruses are not considered to be alive of themselves.

Some of the self-replicating molecules would be better at replicating in groups with other types of molecules, and whilst far from being alive, there would be evolution of these groups of molecules. If you then get a situation where one group of molecules makes a membrane that keeps a population of molecules together, then you are pretty much of the way to cells. You would have discrete populations of molecules in discrete packages that reproduce when there is an external electrochemical gradient, but doesn't share the other characteristics of life.

If one of these packages then develops its own way of maintaining the electrochemical gradient, you have respiration and excretion as well as nutrition. It's just a matter of time before the rest arise then.
 
I can see how it might be different in a formal debate where defining limits is part of the rhetoric. But the real debate we have with creationists is about natural v. supernatural, not just creation v. evolution.

No. Then it is a debate that you will ALWAYS lose. Because there is no evidence of supernatural and people believing in it did not arrive it by reason. You mostly can't use reason to convince somebody away from a conclusion which they did not come to by reason.
If this was that easy there would no creationist whatsoever. The simple fact is that they reject reason in favor of belief.

That is why the debate has to be framed into fact & evidence ("observation of evolution of form") leading to a theory ("natural selection"). Any reframing into natural vs supernatural is lost and shifting (giving) creationism a credible equivalent position. It does not have such.

This is , sorry to say it, a crap reframing.
 
Abiogenesis is a necessary condition for biological evolution to get started. It's a fair tactic in a debate to attack X by attacking the necessary conditions for X.
 
Abiogenesis is a necessary condition for biological evolution to get started. It's a fair tactic in a debate to attack X by attacking the necessary conditions for X.
Evolution deals with what happens once life already exists. It doesn't care what the origin of that life might have been.

Sent from my SM-A300FU using Tapatalk
 
Evolution deals with what happens once life already exists. It doesn't care what the origin of that life might have been.

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The two are inextricably linked. Why do you think there are so many experiments in biology to recreate primordial conditions and get life from organic compounds? If it happens, it will be big news, because evolution theory is not complete without an explanation of how life began.

It's like that old creationist saying, "Give me one miracle, and I can explain everything else."
 
Abiogenesis is a necessary condition for biological evolution to get started. It's a fair tactic in a debate to attack X by attacking the necessary conditions for X.

No, it's not. Let's imagine that life was created by magic and then left to fend for itself. It would still evolve.

Abiogenesis and evolution are entirely separate things. We just happen to know that both of them happen. For one, at one point there was no life, and now there is. How did that happen? Secondly, we know that the life that does exist changes over time in adaptation to its environment. How does that happen?

They are two completely different questions about wholly different events.
 
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The two are inextricably linked. Why do you think there are so many experiments in biology to recreate primordial conditions and get life from organic compounds? If it happens, it will be big news, because evolution theory is not complete without an explanation of how life began.

It's like that old creationist saying, "Give me one miracle, and I can explain everything else."

Yes, which is why I think this is so interesting

https://www.newscientist.com/articl...tor-of-all-life-on-earth-was-only-half-alive/

Although they might have missed the relevant genes due to being conservative.
 
No, it's not. Let's imagine that life was created by magic and then left to fend for itself. It would still evolve.

I don't think biologists who believe in the standard account of evolution would be satisfied with a magical explanation for how life originated- Let there be life!-, and the discussion is about naturalism vs creationism, and whether going after abiogensis is a fair tactic.

If a natural explanation for abiogenesis doesn't eventually emerge (if experiment after experiment can't account for it), it would be a major problem for evolution. The door to "intelligent design" would get wider and wider as the failed experiments pile up.

I think one of these days fairly soon, we'll probably have some plausible evidence-based account for how life began. If I were a creationist, though, I would attack the failure to explain abiogenesis as evidence for intelligent-guided abiogensis, and then jump from there to intelligent design.
 
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...

I am not sure one can apply evolution easily to abiogenesis. Thermodynamics will dictate a direction of chemical reaction that is not evolution.

So you don't think chemical reactions are going on at the molecular level of the replication of RNA and DNA? You don't think natural selection pressures operate at the molecular level?
 
Evolution deals with what happens once life already exists. It doesn't care what the origin of that life might have been.
Again, you can define evolution to only mean, after abiogenesis, and define abiogenesis as something else, OR, you can look at the process in it's entirety and see that the steps getting to abiogenesis followed a similar process evolving amidst selection pressures that led to abiogenesis.

It's like arguing that fertilization is not part of the pregnancy.
 
So what process preceded abiogenesis?

Electromagnetism?

I know the physics and chemistry behind abiogenesis and evolution is the same. I'm saying that they are not the same thing and that one does not truly require the other, and attacking abiogenesis does not attack evolution.
 
Electromagnetism?

I know the physics and chemistry behind abiogenesis and evolution is the same. I'm saying that they are not the same thing and that one does not truly require the other, and attacking abiogenesis does not attack evolution.

So let's say 200 years from now we still don't have a definitive account of abiogenesis, just a bunch of failed experiments and various theories without any consensus.

You don't think evolution theory would be harmed by this? I think it would catastrophic. Evolution is a theory that explains how life forms change over time. Of course it needs a plausible explanation of how life began in the first place. Otherwise, it's like what Skeptical Ginger said: You're trying to explain pregnancy without talking about fertilization.
 
Besides, none of the terms that are used for evolution, like genes, or alleles, make sense in conjunction with abiogenesis.

This is true. It is an important. Many of the biological words NOW used to discuss evolution are too specific to include abiogenesis. The words that we use NOW are specific to life as it manifests TODAY.

You pointed out that evolution is not specific to biological systems. Much of the specificity that we see in biological processes hypothetically happened in stages. Therefore, the phylogenic precursors of biological processes can't properly be described by words that were coined for a processes that had already evolved to interlock in a very specific way.

Darwin never used the words 'gene', 'allele', or 'mutation' in ANY of his books. He refereed to his theory as 'modification with descent', not 'evolution'.
He used words like 'feature', 'variation' and 'spontaneous chance variation'. The words are still being used now, although they still have a very broad meaning.So a modern discussion of evolution sounds nothing like 'Origin of the Species'.

That was mostly the ignorance of the biochemistry and microbiology of living things. Scientists hadn't identified genes, alleles and specific mutations yet. The words weren't coined until Mendel's work was publicized. The word mutation didn't come about until Morgan did that work with fruit flies. The scientific words that were coined after Darwin died helped scientists avoid ambiguity.

These scientific words now have meaning far too specific to encompass the new discoveries. New research findings and modern technology has found phenomena that see to be on the edge of the so called biological phenomena.

None of the modern words used in biology can be applied to abiogenesis. Suppose that we find on a a crystal made of amino acids that grows and sometimes breaks off small crystals. Is that crystal growth or metabolism? Is that merely breaking or is it reproduction? As in all crystal growth, there are atomic scale defects that spontaneously occur randomly. Is this spontaneous formation of defects or is it mutation? Darwin may have called it spontaneous variation, but no one uses that

So Darwin's vocabulary may be useful! I read articles by scientists trying to describe transgenerational epigenetics, claiming that it may sometimes contribute to evolution. 'Transgeneration epigenetics' involves inheritance that doesn't use the formally defined genes and alleles. Yet, this type of inheritance could easily fall within the description that Darwin himself gave.

The theory of evolution is a metatheory, not a specific theory. Darwin did not know any of the microscopic and atomic scale processes in living things. He came to conclusions that were quite valid on a macroscopic level but had no support on a atomic and molecular level. The biochemistry of reproduction and metabolism as we learn it now are just plain theories. By plain theory, I mean something with a rather unambiguous mechanism on an atomic and molecular level.

The problem with modern words in biology is that their usage has become tied to the specific theories, not the metatheory. A desert locust can change from a solitaire to a swarmer due to hormones in the food it eats. Its children (juveniles) inherit its state of development. A scientist that observes this inheritance may call it a mutation. However, there is no 'gene' associated with the inheritance. There is no cite on the DNA of a chromosome that is specific to the swarming state. There are genes that are turned on and off, but they don't change sequence. Better that the scientist call it a 'spontaneous variation' until he knows more.

I am really amused at the debates that I have heard on 'gene duplication'. It is even misused by scientists in articles. Sometimes it means something very specific. I actually heard a scientist say that gene duplication is not a mutation. However, some other scientist will say that evolution is caused by the natural selection of mutations ONLY. So that means that evolution can't occur through gene duplication. Then someone will say that it must be a mutation because it contributes to evolution. Then someone else will say that gene duplication couldn't be mutation because the methods used in decoding the genome couldn't detect any gene duplications, even if they occurred.

New flash: lots of evolution came about through gene duplication.

I propose that scientists go back to Darwin's vocabulary when studying things at the edge. We should go back to referring to mutation-like phenomenon as 'spontaneous variation'. Instead of allele, we can call it 'an inherited variation'. If a scientist actually discovers the site on a chromosome that changed, we could THEN call it an allele.

You may think this is just semantics. However, misused language often slows down discovery.

The problem becomes really bad when it comes to abiogenesis. Some of our oh so early ancestors could have been rocks. The precursors to cells may have been crystal defects in the minerals.

In those days, the metabolism and the reproduction of crystal defects were not specifically interlocked. What we call a gene may have been monomer nucleic acids adsorbed to the crystal surface. Now, the defect may have reproduced inefficiently without the rest of the cell. Their success rate at making exact duplicates of themselves may have been only 1%. There would be no true metabolism, just unspecific reactions catalyzed at the surface.

I would argue that the evolution of these crystal defects very much followed the metatheory described in 'Origin of the Species'. Yes, it is evolution as Darwin would have seen it. However, referring to the nucleic acid as a gene is a bit much. Referring to the catalysis as metabolism would be much. It is not evolution the way a modern scientist would see it because the organism is too inefficient.

I recommend 'Origin of the Species' to everyone, ESPECIALLY biochemists who work with genes. A lot of biochemists learn all the theories but don't understand the metatheories.
 
The main problem with separating abiogenesis and post-abiogenesis evolution is that it's just a way of wiggling away from Creationist arguments that focus on abiogenesis instead of on subsequent evolution. I know those arguments are harder to really answer than the ones about post-abiogenesis evolution, but the harder ones need to be confronted and knocked down just as much as the easy ones do, or more, and merely trying to get away from them makes it look like they would be your downfall.

It's the same problem as with the recent attempt to redefine evolution in terms of "allele frequencies" just so there would be more examples to point to and say "that's evolution" even though you know perfectly well that it's not what people, including yourself, really mean by that word in any other context but the Creationism debate.

Inventing equivocations to act semantic-pedantic over is not a way to win a debate; it's a way to avoid it... which equals avoiding winning.
 
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