• Due to ongoing issues caused by Search, it has been temporarily disabled
  • Please excuse the mess, we're moving the furniture and restructuring the forum categories
  • You may need to edit your signatures.

    When we moved to Xenfora some of the signature options didn't come over. In the old software signatures were limited by a character limit, on Xenfora there are more options and there is a character number and number of lines limit. I've set maximum number of lines to 4 and unlimited characters.

Education in Trump Town

AlaskaBushPilot

Illuminator
Joined
Nov 6, 2010
Messages
4,341
We are in a manufacturing town now that lost its largest employer. They moved to Mexico and are paying $1.25 an hour. This was a heavily union and democratic town for generations. But the economic collapse dictated the election.

It is a one high-school town. They are scoring at about the 12th percentile internationally on standardized tests. A high school graduate from Shanghai is five academic years ahead of the high school graduates here.

It is an understatement to say things are bleak. The high school also closed its skilled worker training program, what we called industrial arts in my day, to align with common core according to the district curriculum director.

For about $7,500 plus food they can teach our kindergartner the alphabet and how to count to 20. That's it, for one full school year.

That's one letter every 7 school days and one number every 9 school days. Almost $300 per letter of the alphabet. $375 per number.

If you already know how to read, do math, and are socially mature, the law forbids you from being in a higher grade. There's no private school. No catholic school.

So everyone is lock-step into this age-sorted lame curriculum from Kindergarten through high school, automatically programmed to be a below average town in a below average state in a below average country.

I call it Trump Town because he won the election here. But it is democratic, and more importantly there is one place where democrats and republicans hug, kiss and cheer all as one: Football.

The town was decorated - the houses, lawns, businesses, etc. for the big homecoming game. Special edition in the paper. A bunch of different goings-on. It's the main event of the year.

A number of parents hold their kid back from school in order to be a year older, bigger, and stronger at that peak education experience: Football games.

They had a losing record in their district and did not make it to state playoffs, but the newspaper had glowing reports about how strong the team was. The paper literally said Friday nights were "sacred".

It's a complete lack of self awareness. In terms of the global labor market. If you can't offer skilled labor, you have to offer intellectual capital.

In the meantime, the Common Core is dead and the new Every Student Succeeds Act (ESSA) is in force. The feds are paying states to form committees and have meetings to completely re-write their educational evaluation procedures. Nobody here knows anything about it. There's 35 people on the statewide committee and they have to be done in six months.

From No Child Left Behind, then Race to the Top (Common Core) to now the ESSA - it's chaos in education. Trump will have an initiative too. Whatever this newest fad proposes in July of 2017 will already be on its way out with the new lock the Republicans have on the House, Senate, and Presidency.

So education in Trump Town is pretty much guaranteed to continue putting out kids that are ineligible for work in trades and years of remedial work away from gaining admission to a decent university course of study.

But the football? That will continue to shine, to bring the town together. It's basketball season now. Track in the spring, I guess.

I don't have anything against sports. But this town is typical for the state, and there are numerous states like this in the nation. There are a lot of regions worse than this too, of course. Asleep at the wheel academically, doing no work training, but lots of hoo-rah over social events.

They're all clueless to the fact our human capital competition is international now and several regions of the world, SE Asia in particular, have stiffened up the business. We are in chaos.

The chaos is so radical that under Obama and Bill Gates, every child was going to be an interchangeable commodity like a wall socket as he put it. Now under ESSA it's all about individuality. Quite the backlash against common core. May I suggest next time a balance between a common core and individuality?

In this chaos parents need to take much more interest in what their children are doing. You can't rely on the schools. The school boards are more about negotiating with the union over wages, not taking on educational challenges.

To pursue excellence, to compete with these tough SE Asians and the like, sets you so far at odds with the culture in Trump Town that you cannot fit in their lock-step program to third world education.

First in your class still makes you a mediocre OECD prospect. You need to be first in the class that's three or four years ahead of your own age to start raising eyebrows in college admissions. Or learn skilled trades outside the school system in order to get a decent job. That will do it too. Think of all the hours in sports practice - a lot more than typical apprenticeship programs.

But parents certainly don't think like this. In fact,most of it is illegal for any trades that actually pay well. The state child labor laws prohibit operating so much as a weed eater at age 14 and 15. No mechanic work, no construction, no cooking/baking - it's a long list and even up to age 18 you still can't do much of anything that pays.

But you can bash your head six nights a week in football. Then break your arm during wrestling season. You can run ten miles a day for track or cross-country but can't walk one block to deliver anything for pay.

A whole system in Trump town that virtually guarantees you won't have decent work experience or education at age 18.
 
So now it's the Every Student Succeeds Act. I have one friend who still hasn't completely retired from teaching. He can't keep up with these things. Teachers wind up spending more time implementing the new curriculums than actual interaction with the students.

It's always a great day to be an educational consultant.

Yes, I suppose the Trump Admin will crank out its own program, though I think it will be more concerned with prayer in schools, creation science, and conservative correct history.
 
(much snipped)

For about $7,500 plus food they can teach our kindergartner the alphabet and how to count to 20. That's it, for one full school year.

That's one letter every 7 school days and one number every 9 school days. Almost $300 per letter of the alphabet. $375 per number.

This is the kind of biased hyperbole that makes it difficult to take the rest of your post seriously. The fact that you don't value the socialization and assessments going on doesn't mean Kindergarten is wasted.
 
The problems with US public ed are systemic and cannot be cured; the whole system needs to be abolished.

Our system is based on a Prussian system which Prussia adopted after Napoleon wiped them at Jena. That system was never meant to produce self-reliant people, it was meant to produce cannon fodder and bricks in the wall.
 
This is the kind of biased hyperbole that makes it difficult to take the rest of your post seriously. The fact that you don't value the socialization and assessments going on doesn't mean Kindergarten is wasted.

And the US has been for a long time and still is the most innovative and enterprising nation in the world. US universities are regarded as the best of any nation.

These kindergarten teachers are sure doing a crap job.:rolleyes:

Rote learning is not the be all and end all of education.
 
The problems with US public ed are systemic and cannot be cured; the whole system needs to be abolished.

Our system is based on a Prussian system which Prussia adopted after Napoleon wiped them at Jena. That system was never meant to produce self-reliant people, it was meant to produce cannon fodder and bricks in the wall.

What it was meant to produce isn't as important as what it actually produces. And there's a huge gap between the poles of "self reliant" and "cannon fodder." I doubt Napoleon's needs have much influence now.
 
And the US has been for a long time and still is the most innovative and enterprising nation in the world. US universities are regarded as the best of any nation.

These kindergarten teachers are sure doing a crap job.:rolleyes:

Rote learning is not the be all and end all of education.

Best? They are mostly jokes. Only few universities are decent. USA is still coasting on previous success (money) and import of foreign brains. Otherwise it would already just another backwater country...
 
Best? They are mostly jokes. Only few universities are decent. USA is still coasting on previous success (money) and import of foreign brains. Otherwise it would already just another backwater country...

Really? Let's look at an independent assessment:

https://www.timeshighereducation.co...t_by/rank_label/sort_order/asc/cols/rank_only

This year's list of the best universities in the world features 147 of the top universities in the US – with 63 American universities making the top 200 of the list, including the California Institute of Technology (Caltech) as the world’s number one university, followed by Stanford University in third place, the Massachusetts Institute of Technology (MIT) in fifth and Harvard University in sixth.

Want to change your view, or do you know better?
 
Really? Let's look at an independent assessment:

https://www.timeshighereducation.co...t_by/rank_label/sort_order/asc/cols/rank_only



Want to change your view, or do you know better?

Know better. Most of indicators are factor of money (and how much monetizing it does), size and other purely quantitative metrics which don't speak about quality of university. It doesn't asses a lot of important metrics like quality of graduates.

Sorry, but that survey is not useful to determine how good education institution is. It's not exactly worthless but it over-emphasis monetary aspects.

Just being big, famous is almost enough.

But it helps explain why perception is so broken.

BTW: Latest results:
https://www.timeshighereducation.co...t_by/rank_label/sort_order/asc/cols/rank_only

Side-note: How much valid entire thing is, is quite questionable, when for example my university is missing completely.
 
Know better. Most of indicators are factor of money (and how much monetizing it does), size and other purely quantitative metrics which don't speak about quality of university. It doesn't asses a lot of important metrics like quality of graduates.

Sorry, but that survey is not useful to determine how good education institution is. It's not exactly worthless but it over-emphasis monetary aspects.

Just being big, famous is almost enough.

But it helps explain why perception is so broken.

BTW: Latest results:
https://www.timeshighereducation.co...t_by/rank_label/sort_order/asc/cols/rank_only

Side-note: How much valid entire thing is, is quite questionable, when for example my university is missing completely.

No, you don't know better. The US has the best higher education system in the world. Are you serious about rejecting this ranking system because your university isn't there? Explain.
 
Yes, I suppose the Trump Admin will crank out its own program, though I think it will be more concerned with prayer in schools, creation science, and conservative correct history.

I will be very interested in what Trump comes up with for education.

My guess is that the things listed above will be almost totally absent. I don't think Trump cares one whit for Jesus, so I just can't see those first two items mattering at all. As for the third, he will want that taught, but I think specifying it will be too much detail for his taste.

I'm guessing that his general approach to education will involve deregulation and school choice. That might have an incidental effect of allowing a bit more leeway in creationism, and certainly for variation in history teaching, but not school prayer in public schools. He will probably be more open to public funding of religious schools (voucher programs et. al.) than his predecessors.

On the other hand, he thinks he knows best about everything, so while his overall approach might involve deregulation, he won't be able to resist throwing in his pet project as a federal mandate. I just don't know what his pet project will be.

ETA: More directly OP oriented, I think a lot of Trump Town voters will be disappointed with Trump. I think they like their football, and they think they might get a little bit more Jesus from Trump, and I think that Donald Trump will actually be more concerned with real performance in education. Whether he does anything about it will be a different story.
 
Last edited:
No, you don't know better. The US has the best higher education system in the world. Are you serious about rejecting this ranking system because your university isn't there? Explain.

You didn't really read my post, did you? You address minor point acting as if it was the only point I made.

Just additional example problem. Not sole. Have you read their methodology? Money, money, citations, money, some useless metrics like ratio of students to teachers, more money. Nothing that tells you how good university is.

BTW: My university would score in many cases quite high. Especially when it comes to metrics using something in relation to size of university.
 
I'm pretty sure electing a guy who believes that global warming is a hoax, thinks vaccines cause autism, believes in a number of other conspiracy theories, picked a running mate who is a creationist and doesn't believe in evolution, and is backed by a congress who strongly wants to push education through the bible rather than through science, isn't going to help the current education system one bit.

That being said, AlaskaBushPilot, isn't your local school board elected by the people? They are in my area. We'd simply vote out the members, repeatedly if needed, until things started improving. Can your voters not do this? If they can and choose not to do so, part of the blame is on your local citizens and not the system specifically (though the system may be broken too). Strong unions of course can make change difficult, but plenty of other areas of the country with strong unions do just fine in terms of early education results.
 
Last edited:
I will be very interested in what Trump comes up with for education.

My guess is that the things listed above will be almost totally absent. I don't think Trump cares one whit for Jesus, so I just can't see those first two items mattering at all. As for the third, he will want that taught, but I think specifying it will be too much detail for his taste.

I'm guessing that his general approach to education will involve deregulation and school choice. That might have an incidental effect of allowing a bit more leeway in creationism, and certainly for variation in history teaching, but not school prayer in public schools. He will probably be more open to public funding of religious schools (voucher programs et. al.) than his predecessors.

On the other hand, he thinks he knows best about everything, so while his overall approach might involve deregulation, he won't be able to resist throwing in his pet project as a federal mandate. I just don't know what his pet project will be.

ETA: More directly OP oriented, I think a lot of Trump Town voters will be disappointed with Trump. I think they like their football, and they think they might get a little bit more Jesus from Trump, and I think that Donald Trump will actually be more concerned with real performance in education. Whether he does anything about it will be a different story.

:thumbsup:
 
Trump won't care one whit about education goals or policy, etc. He would only be interested if Trump Industries can be paid to build big new spangly school buildings with his name on for a huge profit, paid for by public funds, i.e. your taxes.
 
No, you don't know better. The US has the best higher education system in the world. Are you serious about rejecting this ranking system because your university isn't there? Explain.

Degrees in Turnip Harvesting are undervalued?
 
These kindergarten teachers are sure doing a crap job.:rolleyes:


But some aren't.

It may vary, but if you pick a good school district to live in if you have kids. You can find some of the best and hardest working teachers and administrators you would ever want.

Graduate of number 36 and paid for it myself, except for the $1800 dollars I got from the divorce judge.
 
I think what you can expect from Trump is nothing. He has no thoughts on education other than Charter Schools and he read that expression somewhere.

Unfortunately, what that means is we can expect him to hand it over to someone, so watch out for who he makes Secretary of Education. There are some odious choices available in the GOP. And the Trump campaign has debts to pay off, so someone like a Brownback could be in charge of your schools.
 
The rumor right now is Jerry *********** Falwell, Jr for Secretary of Education

That is terrifying
 
So now it's the Every Student Succeeds Act. I have one friend who still hasn't completely retired from teaching. He can't keep up with these things. Teachers wind up spending more time implementing the new curriculums than actual interaction with the students.

It's always a great day to be an educational consultant.

Yes, I suppose the Trump Admin will crank out its own program, though I think it will be more concerned with prayer in schools, creation science, and conservative correct history.

That is why my wife and I retired in 2012 - love teaching, hate the new non- functional ways they wanted us to do it. And the school our previously mentioned small neighbors go to is turning into feces. We still tutor them and have them doing Khan Academy online.
 
Re-new, non-functional. By that we mean bringing back old techniques that were dropped in the 60's-80's with new names. My wife is the specialist on that so she from time to time made herself unpopular during introductions to the "new" methods by pointing out how they fared the previous time around and were dropped. Admins either pretend not to know that or just say (effectively) "oh, no, this has all been tested and really , really works". I will not damage anyone's faith in education by explaining what little 'Has all been tested" actually means.
 
You didn't really read my post, did you? You address minor point acting as if it was the only point I made.

Just additional example problem. Not sole. Have you read their methodology? Money, money, citations, money, some useless metrics like ratio of students to teachers, more money. Nothing that tells you how good university is.

BTW: My university would score in many cases quite high. Especially when it comes to metrics using something in relation to size of university.

ratio of students to teachers is not a useless metric.
 
ratio of students to teachers is not a useless metric.

On its own, it is. Just one of many metrics which can indicate problem, but without additional information won't tell you much. (Not to mention that there si no right number because it depends on many other things)

ETA: And their other metrics are not useful in this regard.
 
Re-new, non-functional. By that we mean bringing back old techniques that were dropped in the 60's-80's with new names. My wife is the specialist on that so she from time to time made herself unpopular during introductions to the "new" methods by pointing out how they fared the previous time around and were dropped. Admins either pretend not to know that or just say (effectively) "oh, no, this has all been tested and really , really works". I will not damage anyone's faith in education by explaining what little 'Has all been tested" actually means.

As I said, it's a great day for consultants. they just have to dust off the old failures and give them a new name.

It seems we will be entering the era of Vouchers with Betsy DeVos as the head of the Department of Education. Parents will be able to sign their kids up for online ed programs and buy a new car.

But I predict it will always be a great day for educational consultants.
 
As I said, it's a great day for consultants. they just have to dust off the old failures and give them a new name.

It seems we will be entering the era of Vouchers with Betsy DeVos as the head of the Department of Education. Parents will be able to sign their kids up for online ed programs and buy a new car.
But I predict it will always be a great day for educational consultants.

(Hilite added) RE: The hilited, is that a reference? I don't get it.
 
Apparently it's official.
Donald Trump’s choice to be secretary of education, Betsy DeVos, is a woman who never went to public school, nor sent her children to public school, nor worked for public schools. She does, however, come from a wealthy family that has donated millions to the Republican Party. And she would be terrible for public education in this country....

“It’s like putting the fox in charge of the henhouse, and hand-feeding it schoolchildren,” Michigan Board of Education President John Austin told the Detroit Free Press “Devos’ agenda is to break the public education system, not educate kids, and replace it with a for-profit model.”

These same thoughts were echoed by David Hecker, president of American Federation of Teachers-Michigan.

“I can’t imagine a worse pick,” Hecker asserted. “I think the person selected should be pro-education, but she wants to dismantle public education. She has had some success in Michigan, not because she has any expertise, but because she is rich.”
All those people that thought Trump was on the side of the little guy, not beholden to big money...:rolleyes:
 
I don't think Trump will have strong views on Education. Like most other policy areas, he will go in whatever direction the last person that spoke to him was recommending. So it will no doubt change fairly quickly, which is not good.
 
I don't think Trump will have strong views on Education. Like most other policy areas, he will go in whatever direction the last person that spoke to him was recommending. So it will no doubt change fairly quickly, which is not good.

Or, since he's delegated it to Betsy DeVos, he'll just let her handle it for the most part, follow her recommendations as needed, but otherwise concentrate on other things.
 
Or, since he's delegated it to Betsy DeVos, he'll just let her handle it for the most part, follow her recommendations as needed, but otherwise concentrate on other things.

I'm sure he'd want in on it. Her proposals look very attractive to any ongoing business that has experience with large scale, highly profitable, private school management with a reputation that is so squeaky clean, there's "no admission of wrongdoing".

My only question at this point is whether the schools will be run by a traditional org chart, or will they be a Multi Level model?

Thuinxtar Educational Products - tell your friends, sell your friends! And their kids!
 
Back
Top Bottom