Merged Due process in the US

dirtywick said:
i feel like that probably should be more of a maybe. being that immigration is more of a civil matter than criminal one, i’m not so sure they need to arrest anyone. especially people here legally. perhaps they can refer criminals over to agencies with that authority and they can stick to enforcing immigration laws
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If their actuall mission wasn't to terrify people of color, you'd have a point. Everyone knows that their agenda is to scapegoat immigrants for all of societies' ailments and make America such a toxic place that they garner enough support for a Final Solution.
But yea, if it was just about enforcing immigration, sticking to legal processes is the best route.
 
Resume said:
They just don't give a ◊◊◊◊.
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I'm sure Hercules will reassure us that it's all right, though, because so far it hasn't happened to that many people. We mustn't get upset unless the practice becomes widespread. Or more properly, until. Then it will be too late, and we can all say "Gosh, how did that happen? Who knew?"
 
Hercules56 said:
They probably have the authority to arrest anyone if there is Probable Cause that they have committed a crime. In this case the crime is obstruction of government administration.

Plus he's another Northeast schmuck running for office who got involved in an immigration incident so as to increase his poll numbers.

Sigh.
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Nice to know that asking a law enforcement officer for a warrant is obstruction. Of course being invited in is trespass, asking a question after id'ing as a US senator is "lunging at Noem" and U.S. citizens are being "detained" by active duty military and ICE and DHS agents.
 
MostlyHarmless said:
Nice to know that asking a law enforcement officer for a warrant is obstruction....
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Is that ALL that happened? He simply asked a question?


On the contrary, it appears that Lander was in locked arms with the alien, and as ICE was trying to detain him, Lander refused to let go of the alien and kept on locking arms with him as ICE was telling him to let go and Lander refused. Looks like obstruction to me but they dropped the charges.
 
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Looks as though he is going to attack Iran. I always though Trump would get us into a war, his kind alwayd does.
 
theonion.com

No One Sure Why Kristi Noem Wearing Firefighter Helmet, Night-Vision Goggles, High Heels, Wet Suit

WASHINGTON—Racking their brains as they tried to determine the express purpose of the homeland security secretary’s outfit, sources confirmed Monday they were not sure why Kristi Noem was wearing a firefighter helmet, night-vision goggles, high heels, and a wet suit. “Huh, that’s odd, but there...
theonion.com theonion.com
WASHINGTON—Racking their brains as they tried to determine the express purpose of the homeland security secretary’s outfit, sources confirmed Monday they were not sure why Kristi Noem was wearing a firefighter helmet, night-vision goggles, high heels, and a wet suit. “Huh, that’s odd, but there must be some kind of reason for it, right?” said one of the sources, who frowned as they took in the sight of the overdressed DHS chief adjusting the quiver of arrows she wore over her back. “We’re in a conference room, but maybe she’s going somewhere afterwards? But where exactly would that be? I don’t remember any of the previous homeland security secretaries wearing that, but maybe I just wasn’t paying attention?” At press time, Noem was reportedly putting on a ghillie suit
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P.J. Denyer said:
Don't worry, I'm sure Herc will be along any second to explain why he deserved it and anyway he probably wanted to be arrested for the publicity.
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Oh look:
Hercules56 said:
They probably have the authority to arrest anyone if there is Probable Cause that they have committed a crime. In this case the crime is obstruction of government administration.

Plus he's another Northeast schmuck running for office who got involved in an immigration incident so as to increase his poll numbers.

Sigh.
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Hercules56 said:
Is that ALL that happened? He simply asked a question?


On the contrary, it appears that Lander was in locked arms with the alien, and as ICE was trying to detain him, Lander refused to let go of the alien and kept on locking arms with him as ICE was telling him to let go and Lander refused. Looks like obstruction to me but they dropped the charges.
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Resume said:
Not dehumanizing at all!


Who gives a ◊◊◊◊ what it looks like to you? They dropped the charges because there was no case.
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dudalb said:
Looks as though he is going to attack Iran. I always though Trump would get us into a war, his kind alwayd does.
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:boggled:
 
Resume said:
theonion.com

No One Sure Why Kristi Noem Wearing Firefighter Helmet, Night-Vision Goggles, High Heels, Wet Suit

WASHINGTON—Racking their brains as they tried to determine the express purpose of the homeland security secretary’s outfit, sources confirmed Monday they were not sure why Kristi Noem was wearing a firefighter helmet, night-vision goggles, high heels, and a wet suit. “Huh, that’s odd, but there...
theonion.com theonion.com
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It's the Onion, of course, but rich and deceitful right-wingers cosplaying as honest, hard-working Americans for photo ops is hardly some new thing.
 
Good question.

If random men in masks claiming to be ICE agents try to grab me, and they’re *not* really ICE, I have the legal right to defend myself against them, yes? And if they are ICE, I don’t? So how am I supposed to tell the difference? I’m supposed to give my masked kidnappers the benefit of the doubt??
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One of the things worth noting here I think (not sure which of the various threads best contains it but Due Process seems closest...

In at least one of the notoriously public cases we've heard about - the brief detention and arrest of the New York City Comptroller, it is looking pretty clear that the government has found a way to mock and pervert due process. In this case, an immigrant was in the system, obeying the law, following procedure, appearing as required in an immigration court. The government dropped the charge, the case was dismissed, and ICE agents. lurking in the courthouse, immediately arrested the suspect. I suppose there's some loophole whereby this doesn't count as double jeopardy, but it sure looks like a setup. Of course we can't be sure the right hand knows what the left is doing and all, but it certainly seems as if the government has found a way to make "due process" empty and meaningless phrase.
 
bruto said:
In at least one of the notoriously public cases we've heard about - the brief detention and arrest of the New York City Comptroller, it is looking pretty clear that the government has found a way to mock and pervert due process. In this case, an immigrant was in the system, obeying the law, following procedure, appearing as required in an immigration court. The government dropped the charge, the case was dismissed, and ICE agents. lurking in the courthouse, immediately arrested the suspect. I suppose there's some loophole whereby this doesn't count as double jeopardy, but it sure looks like a setup. Of course we can't be sure the right hand knows what the left is doing and all, but it certainly seems as if the government has found a way to make "due process" empty and meaningless phrase.
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It's definitely part of a coordinated strategy between DHS lawyers and ICE, and yeah, it's an attempt to sidestep due process.

 
bruto said:
One of the things worth noting here I think (not sure which of the various threads best contains it but Due Process seems closest...

In at least one of the notoriously public cases we've heard about - the brief detention and arrest of the New York City Comptroller, it is looking pretty clear that the government has found a way to mock and pervert due process. In this case, an immigrant was in the system, obeying the law, following procedure, appearing as required in an immigration court. The government dropped the charge, the case was dismissed, and ICE agents. lurking in the courthouse, immediately arrested the suspect. I suppose there's some loophole whereby this doesn't count as double jeopardy, but it sure looks like a setup. Of course we can't be sure the right hand knows what the left is doing and all, but it certainly seems as if the government has found a way to make "due process" empty and meaningless phrase.
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It's the idea of parallel judicial systems the nazis were so fond of. When the judicial system gave the "wrong" ruling (i.e. the one Hitler hated), the Gestapo were waiting outside the courthouse to grab the "undesirable" and stick them in "preventative detention".
 
Resume said:
How long before someone stands their ground versus these masked ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊◊?
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Miller &co are probably hoping for sooner rather than later, to escalate the fascist takeover to the next step, and give them the excuse to shoot first and deport the corpse.
 
arthwollipot said:
I was instructed, when I did my civic duty in a court of law as a juror, that in Australia it is legal to use reasonable force to resist an unlawful arrest.
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Sure, but you still get arrested, only now with even more force. And it'll go worse for you if you misunderstood the law.

What I find interesting is that apparently no western nation - including Australia - teaches its budding citizens the basics of applied legal rights and applied legal obligations, as part of their mandatory education.

"You can beat the rap, but you can't beat the ride." It's almost always better to go peacefully with police, and fight the matter in court.
 
If someone is not showing ID or a warrant, a person should resist. There is already, at least, one case of criminals (other than ICE) kidnapping people by just claiming they are law enforcement. IF they are law enforcement, they should have to prove that they are before laying hands on anyone.
 
theprestige said:
Sure, but you still get arrested, only now with even more force. And it'll go worse for you if you misunderstood the law.

What I find interesting is that apparently no western nation - including Australia - teaches its budding citizens the basics of applied legal rights and applied legal obligations, as part of their mandatory education.

"You can beat the rap, but you can't beat the ride." It's almost always better to go peacefully with police, and fight the matter in court.
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I agree with this, but let's be clear: This only applies when you are not a conservative. Conservatives can aim rifles at federal agents, occupy state capitals armed with assault weapons, and of course, storm the U.S. capitol in an insurrection and they get treated with kid gloves.

The only people who need to be concerned about violent reprisals from law enforcement are liberals and minorities.
 
theprestige said:
Sure, but you still get arrested, only now with even more force. And it'll go worse for you if you misunderstood the law.

What I find interesting is that apparently no western nation - including Australia - teaches its budding citizens the basics of applied legal rights and applied legal obligations, as part of their mandatory education.

"You can beat the rap, but you can't beat the ride." It's almost always better to go peacefully with police, and fight the matter in court.
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We do learn some things, but yeah, the intricacies of the application of the law aren't taught except in law school.

In my example above, the judge dismissed the jury to the jury room for over an hour while that particular interpretation of law was debated between the prosecution and the defence, and we were only brought back in to tell us the judge's final determination. We weren't actually supposed to know the details of the debate, only the result.
 
arthwollipot said:
We do learn some things, but yeah, the intricacies of the application of the law aren't taught except in law school.

In my example above, the judge dismissed the jury to the jury room for over an hour while that particular interpretation of law was debated between the prosecution and the defence, and we were only brought back in to tell us the judge's final determination. We weren't actually supposed to know the details of the debate, only the result.
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Ah, so it was a special case, not a normal part of jury instruction. That makes more sense.
 
Andy_Ross said:
Wearing body armour with Police badges.
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Besides, they have learned the right wing lesson well. It really doesn't matter whether they're right or wrong. It doesn't matter if their case is dismissed before trial, or dismissed after trial. They always get away with it. The point is not to win a case, it's to hurt and intimidate people and to make everyone afraid of them. The damage they do is immediate and extrajudicial and irreversible. Acting badly and arbitrarily and lawlessly is not a bug, it's a feature.

The basic right wing strategy is to act so badly that the only way their opponents can stop them is to act worse. Either way they win, whether by getting away with it or by undermining public conscience and providing an excuse for greater tyranny.
 
bruto said:
Besides, they have learned the right wing fascist lesson well. It really doesn't matter whether they're right or wrong. It doesn't matter if their case is dismissed before trial, or dismissed after trial. They always get away with it. The point is not to win a case, it's to hurt and intimidate people and to make everyone afraid of them. The damage they do is immediate and extrajudicial and irreversible. Acting badly and arbitrarily and lawlessly is not a bug, it's a feature.

The basic right wing strategy is to act so badly that the only way their opponents can stop them is to act worse. Either way they win, whether by getting away with it or by undermining public conscience and providing an excuse for greater tyranny.
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FTFY: this sort of intimidation is exemplary fascism.
 
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