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[Split Thread] Does this qualify as paranormal for the challenge?

VERGIS92

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Does this phenomenon qualify as paranormal for the preliminary $10,000 prize?

The phenomenon can only be contacted upon arrangement with a religious high ranking monk, I have not talked to him, but he may well accept, I first investigated this phenomenon in 1993 in that same place, the very monk was there.


it's as follows:

The monk prepares himself, reads a long prayer, about 1 hour long, and he has a small golden artifact, a golden cross of about 15cm long, when the prayer is done the artifact becomes 'magnetic on demand' and seems to detect areas of suffering on a subject's body, it behaves like a pieces of gold on all healthy spots, but if you place it on say one's forehead, if he suffers from severe migraines the artifact sticks on the forehead with enormous force, for about 20 secs.

I investigated the artifact on 2 subjects, and myself, for 30 mins, without letting the monk near it. The force seems to be proportional to the suggested suffering, amazingly accurate in detecting suffering, and the attraction force reaches unimaginable levels, for the first 20 secs or so, impossible to remove the artifact during those, then it comes down, and feels like a magnet on a fridge.


This completely bends the rules of physics, so the claim is:

1) Proof that prayer can activate the artifact, and that prayer works
2) We can identify spots of suffering, chronic suffering, on the body
3) A mystery, on demand attraction force is produced to indicate the spots.

when tested in 1993, there was no healing, and no religious subjects are required


I'm only going to do once in the near future, and maybe much later, James Randi award is really only $10,000, (preliminary test) if he loses, I imagine that he will
immediately accept the $1m final, but he will also hedge by betting a larger amount with a third party.

Does this qualify for the challenge? if not, I am thinking of custom bet bookmakers, such as William Hill in London, he's know to take bets on supernatural claims, such as
anything that bends the laws of physics as we know it
 
Might be hard to blind a test of identifying parts of the body in pain, but a powerful force of attraction between the artefact and injuries would be fairly easy to measure, so long as it doesn't need to be hand-held. I think the miraculous 'magnetism' claim could qualify.

By the way, I'm not clear whose "preliminary $10,000 prize" you're referring to. The JREF prize is a single $1million.
 
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First issue I see is that 'suffering' can be subjective. Can it find disease?
 
Another thing that comes to mind is that if the object is sticking to the person, we may be looking at another "magnetic children" situation. What we may have here is a slightly damp and clammy monk.
 
VERGIS92 said:
Does this phenomenon qualify as paranormal for the preliminary $10,000 prize?
Click to expand...
There is no preliminary prize.
There are a number of other challenges that have smaller cash values. It may be a good idea to see if there is one in your vicinity. Setting up a test will be much easier and take less travel costs. Besides, these less famous challenges may have more time for less famous claimants.

The monk prepares himself, reads a long prayer, about 1 hour long, and he has a small golden artifact, a golden cross of about 15cm long, when the prayer is done the artifact becomes 'magnetic on demand' and seems to detect areas of suffering on a subject's body, it behaves like a pieces of gold on all healthy spots, but if you place it on say one's forehead, if he suffers from severe migraines the artifact sticks on the forehead with enormous force, for about 20 secs.

I investigated the artifact on 2 subjects, and myself, for 30 mins, without letting the monk near it. The force seems to be proportional to the suggested suffering, amazingly accurate in detecting suffering, and the attraction force reaches unimaginable levels, for the first 20 secs or so, impossible to remove the artifact during those, then it comes down, and feels like a magnet on a fridge.
Click to expand...
My advice is to focus on the mysterious force, as forces can be easily objectively measured.
Is it necessary for anyone to hold the artifact?
Does it work through cloth, paper, etc?
What's its range? How close does it need to be to the sufferer before the force is noticeable?
Does the sufferer need to be in acute pain? Does the artifact react to pain or to any underlying ailments?
 
VERGIS92 said:
Does this qualify for the challenge?
Click to expand...
It seems to be a paranormal claim for which a suitable test protocol could be developed and agreed, assuming the monk agrees.

The JREF challenge consists of two tests, a preliminary and a final test. The million dollars (the money is already sitting the bank) will be paid if both tests are passed; there is no prize for passing the preliminary test.

The details of what claims qualify, how to apply etc are given here:

http://www.randi.org/site/index.php/1m-challenge.html
 
the attraction field goes through one's clothes, it seems to be proportional to the pain, the subjects tested were not in pain in that very time, (migraines, and vain disease one one's leg) it stack on the forehead and leg respectively, first left alone, then tried to remove it with my hands, it was impossible to to do so for about half a minute, then it came down feeling like a magnet on a fridge, and I could overpower it, it also stack on my own chest later with less power, but still very noticeable, I asked what's wrong with me? he said it's just stress.

this can be reproduced on any subject, atheist, muslim etc, we didn't go there in faith, and no claims of healing were made, but the attraction field still puzzles me to this day.

the monks only claim is that these artifacts contain actual material wood, deep inside the gold, wood from the original cross of Jesus, there's several such artifacts spread all over the place, they all have legends and stories, but his one I lived and investigated myself, together with 4 others, 19 years ago
 
VERGIS92 said:
the attraction field goes through one's clothes, it seems to be proportional to the pain, the subjects tested were not in pain in that very time, (migraines, and vain disease one one's leg) it stack on the forehead and leg respectively, first left alone, then tried to remove it with my hands, it was impossible to to do so for about half a minute, then it came down feeling like a magnet on a fridge, and I could overpower it, it also stack on my own chest later with less power, but still very noticeable...
Click to expand...

Just for clarity - you say the object stuck to someone and for half a minute you were not able to pull it away from them, with nobody else touching the object? Is that right? The priest actually let go, the object remained stuck, and you could not pull it away?

I reckon you could win a million dollars with that, and start a new branch of physics to boot. All that remains to be done is to measure the mystical force.
 
There's nothing worse than a vain disease. It's all "look at me, I'm a disease." I prefer more modest ailments.
 
It would definitely count but I'm not sure you could get the monk to agree to the testing. If you could convince him that would really count as a miracle.
 
rjh01 said:
Be ready for disappointment. The monk will refuse to take the test.
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Very likely, but I'm still curious.

How did the OP learn about this monk? Where is he? Have other people who've experienced the phenomenon written about it elsewhere? It seems quite remarkable, so I would be surprised if they hadn't. Perhaps VERGIS92 can share some of those reports with additional details as a starting point in getting the monk his million.

Oh, yes--and as has been stated, there is no "preliminary $10,000 prize"--it's a cool million from the JREF, though it may be smart to go after some of the other smaller prizes first, to gain credibility before going for the big one.
 
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AdMan said:
Oh, yes--and as has been stated, there is no "preliminary $10,000 prize"--it's a cool million from the JREF, though it may be smart to go after some of the other smaller prizes first, to gain credibility before going for the big one.
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However, success in one of the smaller prizes, such as the Australian Skeptics $10,000 Prize, will be considered a successful preliminary test for the JREF Million.
 
arthwollipot said:
However, success in one of the smaller prizes, such as the Australian Skeptics $10,000 Prize, will be considered a successful preliminary test for the JREF Million.
Click to expand...

I'm not sure about that. Winning one of the other prizes would certainly get the applicant all the press and academic notice that's required for the MDC, but I'm not sure that there are any tests that currently qualify as a JREF prelim. I could be wrong.

Ward
 
VERGIS92 said:
the attraction field goes through one's clothes, it seems to be proportional to the pain, the subjects tested were not in pain in that very time, (migraines, and vain disease one one's leg) it stack on the forehead and leg respectively, first left alone, then tried to remove it with my hands, it was impossible to to do so for about half a minute, then it came down feeling like a magnet on a fridge, and I could overpower it, it also stack on my own chest later with less power, but still very noticeable, I asked what's wrong with me? he said it's just stress.
Click to expand...

Alright, I came up with a way to test this that should be reasonably reliable and cheap. It's good idea to test this for yourself before applying for a challenge.

Materials:
1 length of thin thread
1 volunteer migraine sufferer

Tie the cross to the ceiling, using the thread. The cross should hang at head height of the migraine sufferer.
You should be able to tear the thread easily when you pull on the thread. However, you must make sure that it does not tear too easily. Throw the cross against the ceiling. If it does not tear the thread on coming down, that should be sufficient.
The migraine sufferer crouches beneath the cross. He or she rises until they touch the cross with their forehead. Now the cross should adhere to their head so that they can tear the thread by going into a crouch again.
The sufferer may only touch the cross with his or her forehead and no one else may touch it at all.
If the thread is torn, that indicates that there is a paranormal force.

A prize challenge will require a few additional safe-guards to make sure that there is no glue or electromagnetism involved. Also, it would be better to use an actual dynamometer instead of a string to ensure a reliable force measurement.
But none of that should change the basics. So if the monk/cross can pass this test, you're all set.
 
GnaGnaMan said:
Now the cross should adhere to their head so that they can tear the thread by going into a crouch again.
The sufferer may only touch the cross with his or her forehead and no one else may touch it at all.
If the thread is torn, that indicates that there is a paranormal force.
Click to expand...

I'd suggest having something mechanical apply the pressure, such as running the string through a pulley and releasing a weight tied to the other end. Otherwise, the sufferer could simply pretend to go into a crouch, but stop before breaking the thread. A dynamometer, as you suggested, would also solve that problem, since it would show that not enough force was being applied by the sufferer to break the thread.
 
Pup said:
I'd suggest having something mechanical apply the pressure, such as running the string through a pulley and releasing a weight tied to the other end.
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Great idea.

Otherwise, the sufferer could simply pretend to go into a crouch, but stop before breaking the thread. A dynamometer, as you suggested, would also solve that problem, since it would show that not enough force was being applied by the sufferer to break the thread.
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I'm thinking he has to trust the sufferer anyways, if it is something like a migraine. That shouldn't be a big deal if he recruits a suitable person from among his friends.
That may cause problems for controlling a more formal test but let's see if we get there at all...
 
GnaGnaMan said:
I'm thinking he has to trust the sufferer anyways, if it is something like a migraine. That shouldn't be a big deal if he recruits a suitable person from among his friends.
That may cause problems for controlling a more formal test but let's see if we get there at all...
Click to expand...

I agree. I think it would be easier to have him pick a sufferer he trusts and make cheating against the JREF impossible, than vice versa. There would be no need to test for the degree of suffering, since it would be up to him to pick a suitable sufferer and confirm it during the "open" pre-challenge trial. There would only need to be an impartial test for the degree of force on the thread, which should be fairly straightforward.
 
OP should keep in mind that none of us (as far as I know) actually speaks for the JREF. We may think there's a testable claim here, but the JREF might disagree. And, of course, there's the little issue, which has been alluded to, but not stated outright, that to qualify for the MDC, you need more than a claim. You need the claim to be attested by some sort of reliable source.

That said, while what OP described certainly sounds like some sort of magic, I'm not exactly sure what's being claimed. We have a description of a procedure, but I'm not clear on the parameters. Does the monk have to know that a body part experiences pain, or can the cross be used to detect the pain? If it's the former, then maybe the monk merely has the ability to make the cross stick on demand, which is only a little magical, and definitely opens up the possibility of mundane explanations. If it's the latter, then that's more impressive, but still not necessarily magical. How reliable is it? Does the monk get to watch the subject's face? Maybe he's reading subliminal clues. (Although that would still leave the stickiness issue.)

I think this needs a better description of what exactly is occuring, so we can get a better idea of what and how to test. Although, again, we're not the JREF--we're just people who chat on the JREF's forums. The ultimate decision would have to come from JREF, and they'll need more than just a claim (anybody can make a claim).
 
wardenclyffe said:
I'm not sure about that. Winning one of the other prizes would certainly get the applicant all the press and academic notice that's required for the MDC, but I'm not sure that there are any tests that currently qualify as a JREF prelim. I could be wrong.

Ward
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I'm pretty sure that it's been explicitly stated by the JREF that this is the case. Of course, I don't have a reference, just my fallible memory.
 
I seem to remember some talk like that in the dim, distant past, but I can't find anything about it now. Best I can find is on the Tampa Bay Skeptics' page: http://www.tampabayskeptics.org/#Chall

Where they say: "Should anyone ever succeed in a test for TBS, we will arrange for a test by the James Randi Educational Foundation for its $1,000,000 Challenge."

Ward
 
the monk definitely had no way of knowing the migraines issue, or other health issue with no visible clues, the leg vein disorder problem can be spotted only if someone is wearing shorts, I don't what is called but it's when veins look blue and swelled, there was no consistent eye contact, he first performs the process while holding the artifact on one hand and one book on the other, while still reading, after he did that we repeated without him near the artifact.

There are many legends surrounding all these artifacts, but after living through this I am starting to think whether they could be real, no healing occurred to our subjects, just this on demand attraction.

there are several claims of incidents witnessed during WW2 by German soldiers, they all involve similar artifacts, there's a claim about a dying german soldier, who had been terminally wounded in a battle, (massive loss of blood, heavy injuries etc) and some monks in possession of such an artifact healed him instantly, as if his wounds disappeared, and his blood was filled up. there's another story of germans breaking into
another monastery, suspecting that allied soldiers were hiding there, they took everyone out, some monks were imprisoned or killed, they looted everything they found, supplies, valuables, including this artifact here google 'preveli cross' , this one is much bigger, made of silver







nothing weird happened at first, but several days later they brought it back themselves claiming that for 3 entire days, they were attempting to send it to germany, and time after time, any plane that the artifact would go in, couldn't take off, they inspected over and over again until they made up their mind that it has to do with supernatual, and the artifact survived the looting, while some of the monks didn't survive


Of course none of that is relevant today, but the common denominator is that all these artifacts contain 'holly wood' under the silver or gold, and they all claim to have powers, the one I examined does indeed, and can be reexamined under observing conditions
 
VERGIS92 said:
they all claim to have powers, the one I examined does indeed, and can be reexamined under observing conditions
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Assuming that its owners agree to it being tested. Your first step is to get that agreement.

You then have to decide what specific claim you are making for it; "it sticks firmly to the body of someone with a medical problem in a way that can't be scientifically explained", for example. You then have to establish what circumstances are required for it to exhibit the claimed behaviour. For example is it necessary for one specific monk to say a prayer first? If so, you need to get his agreement to participate.

Once you have formulated a clear claim and a suitable test protocol for that claim which excludes the scientifically explainable you will need to do a dry run to check whether the item does indeed behave as claimed when tested using that protocol. A surprising number of MDC applicants omit this vital step. Every single one that's ever got as far as actually being tested, in fact.

At that point you will be ready to apply for the MDC, or one of the other sceptical challenges.

Good luck.
 
So what you ar esdaying is this gold cross contains a part of the 'True Cross' and so it is magic?
 
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