Does the Shroud of Turin Show Expected Elongation of the Head in 2D?"

mikegriffith1 said:
Another worthwhile article is Professor Giulio Fanti's "Turin Shroud: Comprehensive Impossibility for a Work of Art," published earlier this year in the Medical and Clinical Case Reports Journal. Fanti explains some of the reasons that the Shroud could not be a work of art, including the fact that the Shroud has a double-body image imprint. Here's the abstract for the paper:

This study builds upon previous research that has demonstrated the hypothesis suggesting the Turin Shroud (TS) is a medieval artistic production to be medically implausible.

Beyond the medical considerations, the TS exhibits a double-body image imprint. This phenomenon remains unexplained in its entirety and has not been successfully reproduced in a laboratory setting, even with the most advanced and sophisticated modern techniques.

This research extends the critical analysis of this hypothesis, which continues to be widely disseminated in popular media, by examining the technical and procedural challenges a Hypothetical Artist (HA) would have faced in attempting to produce the observed double-body image on the TS.

This study's primary motivation stems from the author’s extensive research on the TS, spanning more than twenty-five years of university-level scientific investigation. Based on this research, the author asserts the authenticity of the TS, as the body of supporting evidence is substantial, while no verifiable data has been identified that would suggest otherwise.

Following a summary of the medical procedures theoretically required for an artist to produce such an imprint, this study further examines, with experimental results too, the even more complex and implausible technical operations that a hypothetical artist would have needed to undertake to produce the TS’s double-body image-an outcome that remains, even with modern scientific advancements, effectively "impossible" to replicate.
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Say, that's great. Has the "it's a miracle!" hypothesis been successfully reproduced in a laboratory setting?
 
mikegriffith1 said:
Another worthwhile article is Professor Giulio Fanti's "Turin Shroud: Comprehensive Impossibility for a Work of Art," published earlier this year in the Medical and Clinical Case Reports Journal.
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Fanti was once a reasonable scientist, it's rather depressing to see him reduced to writing this drivel for a pseudo-journal like that.
But then given his history of embarrassing retractions, it's probabe no-one wants to publish his drivel in a real journal
mikegriffith1 said:
Fanti explains some of the reasons that the Shroud could not be a work of art, including the fact that the Shroud has a double-body image imprint. Here's the abstract for the paper:
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It's nonsense. But then Fanti is a delusional idiot who's ranting about matters he's utterly unqualified to talk about.

The Salem Effect in action.
 
catsmate said:
Fanti was once a reasonable scientist, it's rather depressing to see him reduced to writing this drivel for a pseudo-journal like that.
* * *
It's nonsense. But then Fanti is a delusional idiot who's ranting about matters he's utterly unqualified to talk about.
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Don't you think you're being a bit unfair? I mean no one in this thread is qualified to comment on the absurdity of a physicist lecturing on art history to a bunch of doctors.

[pause for laughter]

Tl;dr = it's a giant self-indulgent straw man, placed before an ill-equipped and disinterested audience. Half of Fanti's references are to his own work, including documentation for such howlers as, "Combining these facts, it can be deduced that the body of Jesus passed through the TS without materially compromising it." (p. 3) We're supposed to accept the judgment of a person on artistic feasibility whose supposedly better hypothesis is stuff like :—

"The perfect congruence between the CHB, which extensively mentions the Resurrection of Christ, suggests that an intense form of light-energy made the human body transparent to matter. Extending this hypothesis, one can similarly explain how the Baby Jesus came out of the womb of the Mother, according to the Marian dogma of the 'Virgin before, during and after the birth.'" (Id., internal citations omitted)​

Then in a desperate "no-evidence-is-somehow-evidence" ploy, Fanti cites to all the various harebrained pseudscientific—and fully religious—claims for how the image got on the shroud (pp. 5-6), notes that no evidence for any of them has been demonstrated, and then drops the bombshell conclusion that this all just proves how hard it would be for an artist to produce the image.

I'm sure we're supposed to focus on all the impressive-looking, largely unremarkable micrography and lab analysis. "Oooh! Science!" and ignore that the meat of the paper is just some guy saying, "I can't figure out how someone did this, but also miracles exist."
 
mikegriffith1 said:
the TS exhibits a double-body image imprint.
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And the Pray Codex doesn't. Amazing how Shroudies can't shut up about the image this, image that, image image image bloodstains image image.

...until they get to the Pray Codex. Then suddenly the image apparently doesn't figure into the discussion, just like it doesn't figure in the illustrations of the Pray Codex itself.
 
JayUtah said:
I'm sure we're supposed to focus on all the impressive-looking, largely unremarkable micrography and lab analysis. "Oooh! Science!" and ignore that the meat of the paper is just some guy saying, "I can't figure out how someone did this, but also miracles exist."
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Argumentum ad Tsoukalos?
 
catsmate said:
Why can't it be detected them?

Except there is no patching in the sampled area......

What "science" is that? All you've produced is assertions and nonsense.

Right....... :rolleyes:

Yes I have, as have others. You don't want to listen to those of us with vastly greater knowledge and skills.

Except there is no chi-squared issue. Magical thinking doesn't impress me.
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"Those of us with vastly greater knowledge and skills"?! It would take several pages to recount all the erroneous statements you have made in this thread.
 
mikegriffith1 said:
"Those of us with vastly greater knowledge and skills"?! It would take several pages to recount all the erroneous statements you have made in this thread.
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At least catsmate doesn't think that David Ford is a professor at the University of Maryland, or that the gospels are eyewitness accounts.
 
JayUtah said:
No, that's not the basis of the statistical norm you're applying to the chi-squared test.


What makes that the desired value?


No, that is not the statistical model. The statistical model is linear regression, suitable when the underlying behavior is known to be linear. The output of the model is a line. The line is a statistic, much as a z-score is a statistic. But it is not a statistical model. The regression model strives to minimize the sum of variances, which then becomes irrelevant once you have the line. The line itself is a model in a different sense, not the statistical sense.


That should give you plenty of time to research the origin and use of confidence intervals.
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So you have epically failed to answer why Damon et al used the chi^2 test in their paper.

Please address this discrepancy.

I am quite familiar with confidence intervals, but that is not the topic, so quit changing the subject.
 
JayUtah said:
Insofar as they are directed to me, they are just an attempt to Gish-gallop away from the rebuttal of Casabianca.


Still circular. Any syllogistic contortion that amounts to asserting the conclusion as a premise qualifies as circular logic even if there are intervening inferences.
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Where was that rebuttal of Casabianca?
 
bobdroege7 said:
I am quite familiar with confidence intervals, but that is not the topic, so quit changing the subject.
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Nice try. The topic is Casablanca. The question on the table is why he believes the 95% confidence interval is the right one to use in his analysis. You can demonstrate your familiarity with confidence intervals by answering that question.
 
bobdroege7 said:
Where was that rebuttal of Casabianca?
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It's ongoing, except that you want to talk about something else rather than allowing me to complete it. My rebuttal requires you to answer the questions I ask about Casabianca's work, your understanding and interpretation of it, and your basis for advocating it.
 
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catsmate said:
Sigh, you [bobdroege7] are still unable produce evidence for this amazing contamination, which can resist hot acid baths and cannot be seen by textile experts.
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I've cited several scientific articles that discuss this evidence.

Anyway, here is yet another scientist who has concluded the Shroud is authentic: Dr. Osvaldo Negrini Neto, a physicist and forensic scientist at the Instituto Forense de Tecnologia in São Paulo, Brazil. I quote the abstract for his article "The Shroud of Turin and the Resurrection" in which me mentions the introduction of medieval fabric into the Shroud's cloth:

One of the most studied relics in the history of science, the Shroud of Turin – also known by Christians as the “Holy Shroud” – remains one of the deepest scientific mysteries. Although C14 (carbon 14) dating in 1988 apparently cast a strong doubt on the authenticity of the shroud, this doubt now appears to have been dispelled by high-precision scientific methods that proved that the samples analyzed were, to say the least, not representative of the whole; in addition, it was proven that among the linen fibers in the samples there was a cotton weave, characteristic of a restoration made at least four centuries ago. This fact called into question the C14 dating; later (2005), high-precision chemical analyses carried out by the renowned American laboratory of Los Alamos not only confirmed this mixture of fibers but also demonstrated that a chemical substance derived from flax, linin, present in the samples, indicated that the age of the shroud was close to two thousand years. In this paper, we will present a challenge to C14 dating, the already established scientific arguments against it, and a new argument that casts strong doubt on the date assessed by this method. As for the engraved image, we can go even deeper: no physical or chemical process attempted to date has managed to reproduce the engraved image. As far as possible, we have tried to stay away from religious hypotheses based exclusively on faith and ideas about fraud in C14 dating and in the formation of the image, as these are not the objectives of this present discussion. (https://www.academia.edu/128345656/...D_THE_RESURRECTION?email_work_card=view-paper)

Cue the usual talking point by some skeptics herein that no one can really be a scientist if they believe the Shroud is authentic, no matter what education and qualifications they have. They must say this because most of the experts who have examined the Shroud have concluded it is authentic.
 
mikegriffith1 said:
Anyway, here is yet another scientist...
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Yawn.

mikegriffith1 said:
Cue the usual talking point by some skeptics herein that no one can really be a scientist if they believe the Shroud is authentic, no matter what education and qualifications they have. They must say this because most of the experts who have examined the Shroud have concluded it is authentic.
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Straw man.
 
catsmate said:
Good grief this is drivel, you really don't have a clue about radiocarbon dating, do you? In addition to what might, charitably, be described as a rote understanding of stats.
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You are not able to answer the questions in my post.

It does not take a degree in statistics to understand radioactive decay.

And you have nothing but slurs, adhoms, and nonsense.
 
bobdroege7 said:
You are not able to answer the questions in my post.
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I'm not agreeing to your attempt to change the subject. You brought up Casabianca specifically and asked if anyone could rebut him. Now in the middle of that rebuttal, you don't want to cooperate and you suddenly want to direct the rebuttal toward a destination you think is more favorable.

bobdroege7 said:
It does not take a degree in statistics to understand radioactive decay.
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It doesn't take a degree in statistics to understand confidence intervals either. But understanding them is helpful in understanding why Casabianca's treatment hasn't gotten much traction in the field.

Why did Casabianca use the 95% confidence? Where does that come from? Why is that particular number used?

bobdroege7 said:
And you have nothing but slurs, adhoms, and nonsense.
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If you believe any of my posts are personal attacks or otherwise uncivil, report them for moderation. Otherwise do not claim as much for rhetorical effect.
 
bobdroege7 said:
So you have epically failed to answer why Damon et al used the chi^2 test in their paper.

Please address this discrepancy.

I am quite familiar with confidence intervals, but that is not the topic, so quit changing the subject.
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What do Casabianca et al say about sample 4? Damon et al. derived both a similar age to the Shroud, and also a similar measurement uncertainty. Do Casabianca et al conclude that sample 4 is also heterogenous?
 
mikegriffith1 said:
I've cited several scientific articles that discuss this evidence.

Anyway, here is yet another scientist who has concluded the Shroud is authentic: Dr. Osvaldo Negrini Neto, a physicist and forensic scientist at the Instituto Forense de Tecnologia in São Paulo, Brazil. I quote the abstract for his article "The Shroud of Turin and the Resurrection" in which me mentions the introduction of medieval fabric into the Shroud's cloth:

One of the most studied relics in the history of science, the Shroud of Turin – also known by Christians as the “Holy Shroud” – remains one of the deepest scientific mysteries. Although C14 (carbon 14) dating in 1988 apparently cast a strong doubt on the authenticity of the shroud, this doubt now appears to have been dispelled by high-precision scientific methods that proved that the samples analyzed were, to say the least, not representative of the whole; in addition, it was proven that among the linen fibers in the samples there was a cotton weave, characteristic of a restoration made at least four centuries ago. This fact called into question the C14 dating; later (2005), high-precision chemical analyses carried out by the renowned American laboratory of Los Alamos not only confirmed this mixture of fibers but also demonstrated that a chemical substance derived from flax, linin, present in the samples, indicated that the age of the shroud was close to two thousand years. In this paper, we will present a challenge to C14 dating, the already established scientific arguments against it, and a new argument that casts strong doubt on the date assessed by this method. As for the engraved image, we can go even deeper: no physical or chemical process attempted to date has managed to reproduce the engraved image. As far as possible, we have tried to stay away from religious hypotheses based exclusively on faith and ideas about fraud in C14 dating and in the formation of the image, as these are not the objectives of this present discussion. (https://www.academia.edu/128345656/...D_THE_RESURRECTION?email_work_card=view-paper)

Cue the usual talking point by some skeptics herein that no one can really be a scientist if they believe the Shroud is authentic, no matter what education and qualifications they have. They must say this because most of the experts who have examined the Shroud have concluded it is authentic.
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So, another "renowned scientist" repeating the same Shroudie talking points as all the other "renowned scientists"? Why should anybody care?
 
Reformed Offlian said:
So, another "renowned scientist" repeating the same Shroudie talking points as all the other "renowned scientists"? Why should anybody care?
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It's even dumber than that. The premise is, "The radiocarbon dating is untrustworthy because the investigators did not consider all the speculated magical effects of the Resurrection on the process." There's a reason this is self-published.
 
JayUtah said:
It's even dumber than that. The premise is, "The radiocarbon dating is untrustworthy because the investigators did not consider all the speculated magical effects of the Resurrection on the process." There's a reason this is self-published.
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They should write a play. I already have a title: "The Effect of Pie-in-the-Sky Miracles On Gamma Rays"
 
Reformed Offlian said:
They should write a play. I already have a title: "The Effect of Pie-in-the-Sky Miracles On Gamma Rays"
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That's exactly on point. All these purportedly scholarly offerings fall into a pattern and its corollary. In most, the author is well-qualified in some sort of scientific discipline and has distinguished himself in that discipline generally having nothing to do with religion or relics. The insinuation is that whatever these people do or say on any subject must be taken as well-supported science because of the stature and reputation of the claimant. That's actually an ad hominem argument—or more grammatically stated: a propter hominem argument.

The papers themselves couple a relatively unremarkable scientific expression (e.g., electron microscopy) with a contentious or dubious proposition. Sometimes the dubious statement is the premise. Sometimes it is the conclusion. But it's a motte-and-bailey pattern either way. If you correctly identify the contentious element and contend it, the rejoinder wants to underscore the unremarkable scientific presentation. The claimant wants desperately for the rebuttal to be something other than it should be. They don't want it to be that these otherwise or formerly eminent scientists are actually proposing something far outside scientific rigor. They don't want it to be that the fancy diagrams, equations, micrographs, and tables is camouflage for what is essentially a statement of belief or an argument from vibes.
 
mikegriffith1 said:
I've cited several scientific articles that discuss this evidence.

Anyway, here is yet another scientist who has concluded the Shroud is authentic: Dr. Osvaldo Negrini Neto, a physicist and forensic scientist at the Instituto Forense de Tecnologia in São Paulo, Brazil.
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Oh good grief, another engineer spouting nonsense outside his area of experience. That "paper", unpublished and unreviewed is littered with lies

There is no evidence of a magically invisible patch on the Lirey cloth.
The image on the cloth is not "engraved".
The image has been reproduced.
There was no analysis performed at Los Almos.
The Lirey cloth is not the most studied object
 
bobdroege7 said:
You are not able to answer the questions in my post.
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What questions? Your post was littered with nonsense.
bobdroege7 said:
It does not take a degree in statistics to understand radioactive decay.
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And yet you clearly don't understand.
bobdroege7 said:
And you have nothing but slurs, adhoms, and nonsense.
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Nope.

Now what about your claims.
1. Where are your examples of first century Middle Eastern woven cloth showing a herringbone weave.
2. When was the Lirey cloth damaged in the manner you claim is shown in the illustration shown in the Pray Codex?
3. Do you still claim there was a secret radiocarbon test performed on the Lirey cloth? If so, by whom, when and where.
 
Hey, is this thing going on still? May I repeat my question made at least a decade ago?
(I may)

Let us assume that the shroud is actually about 2K years old.
Let us also assume that it is actually a burial shroud.
Let us further assume that it is in fact the burial shroud of a crucified person.

Even if all these rather unlikely assumption were true, what does that prove?
It proves what we already know: That crucifixion was a common mode of execution of the era, and that someone was crucified.

Hans
 
There's an easy explanation for the Shroud. Back in ~33AD, historical Jesus was crucified. A VEC* painted a big piece of cloth to look like a miraculous burial wrap bearing Big J's image. He did this because he recognized a sure winner, and he knew that the oncoming cult would need relics; it's all part of the religion game.

So the Shroud really & truly is 2,000 years old, while being completely spurious. Yay! Everybody wins!

Except the religionists, but hell, they always think they're right no matter what. They've got the rest of us whipped before the game even starts.

* Very Early Christian. Also a Very Early Byzantine, judging by his ironing-board conception of anatomy.
 
JayUtah said:
It's ongoing, except that you want to talk about something else rather than allowing me to complete it. My rebuttal requires you to answer the questions I ask about Casabianca's work, your understanding and interpretation of it, and your basis for advocating it.
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Frankly, your questions were irrelevant, you seem stuck on the idea that you need qualifications to debunk Damon et al. It's the science and data.


You are just making adhom attacks on Casabianca, instead of addressing the science and data in their paper.

My understanding and interpretation are irrelevant.

Sorry, but you said this

"Irrelevant. You’re now trying to interject your hypothesis for why there was unexpected variance in the radiocarbon results. Cart before the horse."

in response to me saying "Any addition of carbon to a sample of a different age will cause the measured date to be inaccurate"

I can only conclude that your knowledge in this area is insufficient to debunk the Casabianca paper.
 
catsmate said:
What questions? Your post was littered with nonsense.

And yet you clearly don't understand.

Nope.

Now what about your claims.
1. Where are your examples of first century Middle Eastern woven cloth showing a herringbone weave.
2. When was the Lirey cloth damaged in the manner you claim is shown in the illustration shown in the Pray Codex?
3. Do you still claim there was a secret radiocarbon test performed on the Lirey cloth? If so, by whom, when and where.
Click to expand...

The shroud was not woven in Palestine, probably Italy, due to the twist of the fibers.

Before the Pray Codex was written, before 1200.

T.W. CASE, The Shroud of Turin and the C-14 dating fiasco, White Horse Press, Cincinnati (OH), USA 1996, pp. 75-77; W. MEACHAM, The Rape of the Turin Shroud, Lulu.com, 2005, pp. 102-103.
 
Reformed Offlian said:
What do Casabianca et al say about sample 4? Damon et al. derived both a similar age to the Shroud, and also a similar measurement uncertainty. Do Casabianca et al conclude that sample 4 is also heterogenous?
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First question,

"The hypothesis of a statistical significance only due to some difference in measurements among the laboratories is weakened by the fact that the results were correct and consistent for the three control samples"

Second question: No, Casabianca does not conclude sample 4 is heterogeneous.
 
bobdroege7 said:
Frankly, your questions were irrelevant...
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In whose judgment? It's my rebuttal. I get to say which questions are relevant to my rebuttal.

bobdroege7 said:
you seem stuck on the idea that you need qualifications to debunk Damon et al. It's the science and data.
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Qualifications matter in science. Casabianca has no qualifications or experience in the relevant sciences. That's an important point. His coauthors have qualifications only in statistics, but not in radiocarbon dating or archaeology. The Casabianca paper is not well received in the field. That's a fact. I'm attempting to tell you why that is.

bobdroege7 said:
You are just making adhom attacks on Casabianca, instead of addressing the science and data in their paper.
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I am very much attempting to address the science and the data in the Casabianca paper. The paper attempts to make an argument purely from statistics—the only field in which at least some of the authors are qualified. I'm attempting to point out why that statistical argument is not convincing to people qualified in radiocarbon dating and archaeology. Don't you think that's the least bit relevant?

bobdroege7 said:
My understanding and interpretation are irrelevant.
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No.

All throughout this thread you have maintained that little if any of the contravening evidence is important because the carbon-14 heterogeneity is the trump card. The chi-squared claims from Casabianca are the smoking gun. You fringe-reset on it. You pivot to it every time you are cornered. You consider it evidence that cannot be rationally refuted. It's frankly almost all you talk about. Therefore we're going to explore your understanding of it, to see if you understand how important it really is.

More importantly, I've already given you my rebuttal of Casabianca, and you didn't understand it. So to continue, exploring your understanding of the underlying statistical claims is essential to determining whether you're capable of understanding the rebuttal. You can cooperate with a test of your understanding of Casabianca or you can concede that you are unequal to the task of defending him.

Choose.

bobdroege7 said:
I can only conclude that your knowledge in this area is insufficient to debunk the Casabianca paper.
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...says the person who sent us to an irrelevant explanation of Pearson and is now frantically trying to avoid answering questions about statistics.

It's a very simple question: where did the 95% confidence interval come from? Why do Casabianca et al. consider it the gold standard?

I'll give you a hint. Earlier you said that Casabianca used the 95% confidence interval because Damon et al. used the 95% confidence interval. But that's not quite true. While they reported the chi-squared test for outliers according to the 95% interval in accordance with Ward & Wilson, Damon also reported the dating interval to the 68% confidence interval and found that while the date range was a little larger, the dates all fell within it. Why 95%? Why 68%? Why those oddly specific numbers?

Now anyone who has had even first-year statistics can tell you why. You can't, and that's a huge red flag for the question of whether you understand either Damon or Casabianca enough to determine which one is more credible. And when you think about it, you can understand why a bunch of statisticians would underscore those particular numbers. But the answer is more than just chi-squared. I'll explain it to you as soon as you stop bluffing.
 
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bobdroege7 said:
Frankly, your questions were irrelevant, you seem stuck on the idea that you need qualifications to debunk Damon et al. It's the science and data.


You are just making adhom attacks on Casabianca, instead of addressing the science and data in their paper.

My understanding and interpretation are irrelevant.

Sorry, but you said this

"Irrelevant. You’re now trying to interject your hypothesis for why there was unexpected variance in the radiocarbon results. Cart before the horse."
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Strawman,
bobdroege7 said:
I can only conclude that your knowledge in this area is insufficient to debunk the Casabianca paper.
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Good grief this is pathetic.
bobdroege7 said:
The shroud was not woven in Palestine, probably Italy, due to the twist of the fibers.
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So you're changing your mind again......
Evidence for this assertion? Date, place, similar fabric.
bobdroege7 said:
Before the Pray Codex was written, before 1200.
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When? Where is your evidence for this assertion?
bobdroege7 said:
T.W. CASE, The Shroud of Turin and the C-14 dating fiasco, White Horse Press, Cincinnati (OH), USA 1996, pp. 75-77; W. MEACHAM, The Rape of the Turin Shroud, Lulu.com, 2005, pp. 102-103.
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Oh good grief I've already debunked those claims, as you well know.
I note that you refuse, again, to address the impossibility of the claimed secret radiocarbon testing, i.e the sample size and the non-existence of the supposed testing facility.
 
JayUtah said:
In whose judgment? It's my rebuttal. I get to say which questions are relevant to my rebuttal.


Qualifications matter in science. Casabianca has no qualifications or experience in the relevant sciences. That's an important point. His coauthors have qualifications only in statistics, but not in radiocarbon dating or archaeology. The Casabianca paper is not well received in the field. That's a fact. I'm attempting to tell you why that is.


I am very much attempting to address the science and the data in the Casabianca paper. The paper attempts to make an argument purely from statistics—the only field in which at least some of the authors are qualified. I'm attempting to point out why that statistical argument is not convincing to people qualified in radiocarbon dating and archaeology. Don't you think that's the least bit relevant?


No.

All throughout this thread you have maintained that little if any of the contravening evidence is important because the carbon-14 heterogeneity is the trump card. The chi-squared claims from Casabianca are the smoking gun. You fringe-reset on it. You pivot to it every time you are cornered. You consider it evidence that cannot be rationally refuted. It's frankly almost all you talk about. Therefore we're going to explore your understanding of it, to see if you understand how important it really is.

More importantly, I've already given you my rebuttal of Casabianca, and you didn't understand it. So to continue, exploring your understanding of the underlying statistical claims is essential to determining whether you're capable of understanding the rebuttal. You can cooperate with a test of your understanding of Casabianca or you can concede that you are unequal to the task of defending him.

Choose.


...says the person who sent us to an irrelevant explanation of Pearson and is now frantically trying to avoid answering questions about statistics.

It's a very simple question: where did the 95% confidence interval come from? Why do Casabianca et al. consider it the gold standard?

I'll give you a hint. Earlier you said that Casabianca used the 95% confidence interval because Damon et al. used the 95% confidence interval. But that's not quite true. While they reported the chi-squared test for outliers according to the 95% interval in accordance with Ward & Wilson, Damon also reported the dating interval to the 68% confidence interval and found that while the date range was a little larger, the dates all fell within it. Why 95%? Why 68%? Why those oddly specific numbers?

Now anyone who has had even first-year statistics can tell you why. You can't, and that's a huge red flag for the question of whether you understand either Damon or Casabianca enough to determine which one is more credible. And when you think about it, you can understand why a bunch of statisticians would underscore those particular numbers. But the answer is more than just chi-squared. I'll explain it to you as soon as you stop bluffing.
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First, why is homogeneity important in radiocarbon dating, you claimed it was irrelevant. Care to revise that statement.

Second, if you have already debunked Casabianca, why did you claim you are still working on it? Which is it? Still working or debunked?
I still haven't seen your rebuttal of it.

Are you sure you know why the 95% confidence interval is used? I do, and don't tell me I don't. I have not taken any statistics courses, all the statistics I know I learned in other science classes and on the job.

Damon et al are suspect for other reasons than their posting a failing chi^2 test without pointing that out. They withheld the data for almost 30 years until Casabianca used a FOIA to get the data. That damages their credibility a lot.
 
bobdroege7 said:
First, why is homogeneity important in radiocarbon dating, you claimed it was irrelevant. Care to revise that statement.
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I said that homogeneity does not play the role in radiocarbon dating that you seem to insist upon. It's not relevant in the way you interpret Casabianca to require. I maintain that. The Ward & Wilson test identifies outliers. What one does with those outliers is a matter of specialized understanding that neither you nor Casabianca seems to regard.

You might be interested in knowing that the Ward & Wilson test has been superseded by a completely different method based on Bayesian inference. What implications do you think that should have for the evaluation of radiocarbon dating results?

bobdroege7 said:
Second, if you have already debunked Casabianca, why did you claim you are still working on it?
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Because you didn't understand it the first time around. So we have to try again. I could just say it's rebutted and that the rebuttal clearly goes over your head. But that would be dismissive, mean-spirited, and unsatisfying. Therefore I'm leading you through the preconceptions through which you are wrongly perceiving the logic of the rebuttal so that there can be some hope of progress. You wrongly think I'm making an ad hominem attack on Casabianca. I think this is because you believe the premises of Casabianca's argument are self-evident truths and may not be questioned.

bobdroege7 said:
Are you sure you know why the 95% confidence interval is used?
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Yes.

bobdroege7 said:
I do, and don't tell me I don't.
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Then tell us why Casabianca used it and believed that it was the right thing to do.

bobdroege7 said:
I have not taken any statistics courses, all the statistics I know I learned in other science classes and on the job.
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I have taken several statistics classes, had my understanding of it tested in a rigorous licensing exam, and remain liable to the public for my ongoing mastery of it. As others have said, you seem to have a rote, mechanical understanding of statistics. That would be consistent with the way you say you learned. You treat some of these parameters as if they were rigid tolerances or specifications in a commercial process. I maintain that your approach is improper for the purposes of discussing Damon and Casabianca. Therefore I'm asking you questions designed to challenge some of the preconceptions you may be operating under and which prevent you from understanding the flaws in Casabianca's paper. Or stated another way, I am teaching you what you didn't learn by not taking statistics classes, and doing so Socratically so that you teach yourself.

bobdroege7 said:
Damon et al are suspect for other reasons...
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Don't change the subject. The subject is Casabianca's paper. The question on the table is why Casabianca used the 95% confidence interval. When you answer that, we'll move on to my next questions.
 
I note, with no surprise whatever, that @bobdroege7 has failed to respond to my request for
1. Evidence of the creation of the Lirey cloth in Italy, such as examples of similar weaves from there that can reliably be shown to be of first century origin. Some reason why such cloth would be used as a burial shroud for an irreverent rabble-rouser in Roman Judea would be nice too.....

2. Evidence for a pre-1190 fire that damaged the Lirey cloth in exactly the same places as the 1532 fire

3. Evidence of a secret radiocarbon testing of the cloth, preferably with a sample of suitable size and an AMS facility that actually existed at the time of the claimed testing....
 
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