Merged Difference between Blackface and Drag/ Drag is offensive to women

Jack by the hedge said:
Are drag shows actually offensive to women, or is this another case of people feeling they ought be offended on behalf of others?
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I'm guessing the latter. Can't think of a woman I've known that is offended by drag. But then I don't know many women.

A coworker of mine back in the 90s was crowned the Drag King of Austin, at least that's what I was told. A bit of a reverse story.
 
JayUtah said:
Irrelevant. The point is first that a wide variety of viewpoints can be found, and second that your description is chapter-and-verse what the reactionary right says.


Wow. Beg the question much? Can you possibly grasp that caricature isn't inherently racist or degrading?
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All blackface is considered racist and offensive, regardless of the content.

Why not extreme exaggerated outlandish depictions of women?
 
How can that not be fun if very few people are offended. How many drag show programs are out there?

Paging @COLONEL
 
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Hercules56 said:
Drag Queens are a cartoonish, offensive misrepresentation of women. An extreme characature of what a woman is supposed to look like. Not different from blackface. So why is it allowed? Why is it encouraged, even promoted by femenists and others who support womens' rights?

Why is such a representation of women considered in any way to be a positive thing in our society, that strives to foster and nurture a sense of respect and equality and respect for both sexes?

I don't get it.
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In the UK they have been mostly popular with women, certainly that’s where the money has been and is.
 


I've merged the recent thread with this one
Posted By: jimbob
 
Hercules56 said:
Drag Queens are a cartoonish, offensive misrepresentation of women. An extreme characature of what a woman is supposed to look like. Not different from blackface. So why is it allowed? Why is it encouraged, even promoted by femenists and others who support womens' rights?

Why is such a representation of women considered in any way to be a positive thing in our society, that strives to foster and nurture a sense of respect and equality and respect for both sexes?

I don't get it.
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Yaaaaas queen!

Slaaaaaay! 🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥
 
Hercules56 said:
Some women clearly do find modern drag shows very offensive and demeaning/degrading.
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A quote from Christopher Hitchens comes to mind:

“If someone tells me that I've hurt their feelings, I say, 'I'm still waiting to hear what your point is.'​

― Christopher Hitchens
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Are you against freedom of speech and expression?
 
Hercules56 said:
Some women clearly do find modern drag shows very offensive and demeaning/degrading.

juliebindel.substack.com

What a Drag!

Men dressing as parodies of women: fun or offensive?
juliebindel.substack.com juliebindel.substack.com

www.feministcurrent.com

Why has drag escaped critique from feminists and the LGBTQ community?

I don’t intentionally go to many drag shows. Not as a political or even personal decision — in fact, it’s not really something I’ve thought about all that much. I suppose that form of entertainment simply has never interested me. That said, it’s been around for so many years that these...
www.feministcurrent.com www.feministcurrent.com

medium.com

Is Drag Degrading to Women?

Dictionary.com defines a drag queen as “A male who dresses as a woman and impersonates female characteristics for public entertainment”…
medium.com medium.com

eliesheva.medium.com

From Drags to Bitches: The implications of mainstreamed drag culture on women.

S7:E1 of RuPaul’s Drag Race may not have been the best one with which to begin a Netflix binge
eliesheva.medium.com eliesheva.medium.com

www.womensrights.network

The Misogyny of Drag | Women's Rights Network | UK

The misogyny of drag - a sexualised stereotype of womanhood that is burlesque and extreme, and frequently played for laughs...
www.womensrights.network www.womensrights.network
4w.pub

Is Drag Misogynistic?

It’s time to stop letting sexist gay men off the hook.
4w.pub 4w.pub
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Have you actually read some of these?
The first one says:
Drag acts reflected this gentle jibe at heterosexual society, where we subverted everything considered ‘normal’ about gender and had great fun doing so.

The occasional exception aside, these acts were not offensive to women, but clearly parodied strong, forceful, working-class women – often inspired by real-life characters such as the performer’s older female relative. In that context, where such a vibrant feminist movement sat alongside gay liberation campaigns, we would be sure to pick up on any homophobic stereotypes or misogynistic representations. In those days, gay men would, in response to the usual questions (“What are you, a boy or a girl?”), often use drag to make a bold statement about not conforming to macho stereotypes.

Back then, most drag was good, clean fun as well as edgy and challenging to heterosexuals and conformists.

Today, however, drag is part of porn culture and its messages are deeply misogynistic and regressive.
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She's saying that drag used to be "good, clean fun" (as well as something she herself used to participate in and enjoy) but somehow it has changed to become "deeply misogynistic and regressive". It's a kind of weird argument. I'm not into the drag scene enough to understand what are the actual differences between drag in the 1980s and drag in the 2020s. But it seems suspect to me to argue that there used to be nothing wrong with it and now there is.
Another one of your links says:
Cross dressing and lip-syncing is entirely different from the insensitive nature and intention of blackface. In queer and feminist communities, drag tends to be widely accepted. It makes sense, counter cultures allowing each other to thrive and experiment.
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So your own link explicitly denies that cross dressing is similar to blackface.
 
Puppycow said:
Have you actually read some of these?
The first one says:

She's saying that drag used to be "good, clean fun" (as well as something she herself used to participate in and enjoy) but somehow it has changed to become "deeply misogynistic and regressive". It's a kind of weird argument. I'm not into the drag scene enough to understand what are the actual differences between drag in the 1980s and drag in the 2020s. But it seems suspect to me to argue that there used to be nothing wrong with it and now there is.
Another one of your links says:

So your own link explicitly denies that cross dressing is similar to blackface.
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Puppycow! You’re not supposed to READ them!
 
Orphia Nay said:
I am a woman. Drag shows do not offend me.

Some women do get offended. So, what are you going to do about it? Don't go to drag shows, nobody is forcing you......
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Why not apply this same rule to minstrel shows with blackface characters?
 
Hercules56 said:
Why not apply this same rule to minstrel shows with blackface characters?
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It does equally apply to minstrel shows with blackface characters. If it offends you don't go to minstrel shows with blackface characters, nobody is forcing you...
 
Darat said:
It does equally apply to minstrel shows with blackface characters. If it offends you don't go to minstrel shows with blackface characters, nobody is forcing you...
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Minstrel shows are now extreme social outcasts, leading to firing, expulsion from colleges, if participated in.

Why not the same for offensive misogynist drag shows?

Why is it ok to demean and mock and objectify and hyper-sexualize women but not black people?
 
Hercules56 said:
People get fired these days for doing blackface.
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Context matters. You can do it in a non-getting-fired way. I mean, Robert Downey "Iron Man" Jr didn't get significantly cancelled for his blackface character in the comedy Tropic Thunder. I'm sure you could find some critical commentary but notably his career remains unimpacted. Probably mentioned upthread but search borken.

ETA: Aziz Ansari has a piece about the guy who did Indianface for Short Circuit in the 80's. Now that I think about it, RDJr's character kind of reads as a reaction to that guy.
 
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I'm sure it's been said already, but drag and blackface are not comparable in intent. Drag is ...ahem... 'broadly' challenging gender roles, while blackface is mocking. A bunch of college guys dressing as cheerleaders and parodying being slutty bimbos would be comparable to blackface.

If you don't get what is going on with a drag performer, maybe catch a show and think about what is going on?
 
Hercules56 said:
Minstrel shows are now extreme social outcasts, (...)

Why not the same for (...) drag shows?

Why is it ok to (...exaggerate...) women but not black people?
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Real talk? Because there are not enough black people that enjoy that kind of thing, for a list of reasons longer than my arm. If we could fix all the things that make the vast majority of black people interpret blackface as a degradation rather than a celebration (among them, the part where it usually IS an degradation rather than a celebration) then it would be fine. It's not bad because of what it is in abstract isolation.

I think what you might want to look at to answer that question, is why so many women enjoy drag shows and find them great fun and don't feel weird or bad in the audience watching drag queens perform. And see if you can find any minstrel shows a black person could go to and not feel weird or bad watching.

Honestly I think a fun blackface show could be done just fine in a universe without the baggage. It seems to me the reason traditions like Black Piet stick around is specifically because it's not offensive on its own and doesn't get weird until you get, idk what to call it - collateral baggage?
 
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We actually have comedians of all skin colors that poke fun at other racial stereotypes/hangups in everything except putting on the makeup. It's the blackface itself, usually done to exaggerate the lips and all that crosses the line from having some fun over to contempt. Drag performers are not contemptuous of being fabulous at all. They really love it.
 
Eh, soon women won't be allowed into US theaters anymore lest they inflame the lust of men, and dragqueens will be back in the closet or deported, so the problem will go away.
 
Drag isn't about women in general, it's about the flamboyant personality of the performer. If anybody's being mocked it's the individual drag queen themself. They aren't saying "this is how women are, isn't it crazy" they're saying "this is how I am, isn't it fabulous".
 
Hercules56 said:
Why not apply this same rule to minstrel shows with blackface characters?
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In my opinion, the backlash against blackface has gone too far.

There, I said it.

But in the wake of the George Floyd protests I think that even the performances which were meant to show the characters in It’s Always Sunny as clueless were taken down from streaming.

Is this correct?

You seem to be of the opinion that we should be more censorious. Is that correct?

More censorship! More firings! More ostracism and stigma!
 
Hercules56 said:
Why is it ok to demean and mock and objectify and hyper-sexualize women but not black people?
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You keep begging the question that drag does this and/or intends to do this. You're simply wrong on the facts.

Drag has zilch to do with sex or prurient interest. The principal audience for drag shows is straight women and gay men. I can promise you no one in the audience is lusting after the queens on stage. You keep pushing the right-wing narrative that drag is tantamount to stripping. Get better facts.
 
Hercules56 said:
Minstrel shows are now extreme social outcasts, leading to firing, expulsion from colleges, if participated in.

Why not the same for offensive misogynist drag shows?

Why is it ok to demean and mock and objectify and hyper-sexualize women but not black people?
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Because it isn't, things change, about the only constant in life, minstrel shows were OK then they weren't, perhaps drag shows in 40 years won't be. (And I don't buy into your view of what drag is, but I think you know that.)
 
Lithrael said:
Real talk? Because there are not enough black people that enjoy that kind of thing, for a list of reasons longer than my arm. If we could fix all the things that make the vast majority of black people interpret blackface as a degradation rather than a celebration (among them, the part where it usually IS an degradation rather than a celebration) then it would be fine. It's not bad because of what it is in abstract isolation.

I think what you might want to look at to answer that question, is why so many women enjoy drag shows and find them great fun and don't feel weird or bad in the audience watching drag queens perform. And see if you can find any minstrel shows a black person could go to and not feel weird or bad watching.
Honestly I think a fun blackface show could be done just fine in a universe without the baggage. It seems to me the reason traditions like Black Piet stick around is specifically because it's not offensive on its own and doesn't get weird until you get, idk what to call it - collateral baggage?
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Long before the new wave of female comedians in the UK, i.e. the likes of Jo Brand, drag acts were the only comedians that made jokes and had a humour that was in sympathy with a lot of women's experience of being a woman in a men's world. That is why they liked them plus of course they were often quite blue but in regards again to a woman's experience, Foo Foo Lammar would have women screaming out "yes!" with comments about "size doesn't matter" - he had a 10-minute routine all around that. That was in the 70s-90s, perhaps these days with prominent female comedians relating directly to women drag doesn't offer the uniqueness it did. (Talking about the drag acts that filled venues night after night that were marketed to women and had mainly female audiences, there is another strand that ran in gay venues at the same time.)
 
JayUtah said:
You keep begging the question that drag does this and/or intends to do this. You're simply wrong on the facts.

Drag has zilch to do with sex or prurient interest. The principal audience for drag shows is straight women and gay men. I can promise you no one in the audience is lusting after the queens on stage. You keep pushing the right-wing narrative that drag is tantamount to stripping. Get better facts.
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Ive never compared drag shows to strippers.
 
Hercules56 said:
Ive never compared drag shows to strippers.
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tantamount
/ˈtantəmaʊnt/

adjective

  1. equivalent in seriousness to; virtually the same as.
    "the resignations were tantamount to an admission of guilt"


77a0026cf55b123292af17f6d58634beee78cac1350acd4ce36aa14f1af0c97.png
 
Darat said:
tantamount
/ˈtantəmaʊnt/

adjective

  1. equivalent in seriousness to; virtually the same as.
    "the resignations were tantamount to an admission of guilt"

77a0026cf55b123292af17f6d58634beee78cac1350acd4ce36aa14f1af0c97.png
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Tanta Mountie would be a great drag queen name for a Canadian. Sidekick would be RCMPenis.
 
JayUtah said:
You keep begging the question that drag does this and/or intends to do this. You're simply wrong on the facts.
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Facts are a woke communist idea that Dump has rid the US of long ago. You need to argue with fear and other emotions.
 
Lithrael said:
Context matters. You can do it in a non-getting-fired way. I mean, Robert Downey "Iron Man" Jr didn't get significantly cancelled for his blackface character in the comedy Tropic Thunder. I'm sure you could find some critical commentary but notably his career remains unimpacted. Probably mentioned upthread but search borken.

ETA: Aziz Ansari has a piece about the guy who did Indianface for Short Circuit in the 80's. Now that I think about it, RDJr's character kind of reads as a reaction to that guy.
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Yeah I've kinda wondered why Robert Downey Jr got a free pass on that. Normally, there'd be an uproar (and maybe there was when it first came out but I don't recall it), but if it's in the service of comedy it could be okay. If a picture comes out in blackface, your career is over, particularly politicians.

I get satire, and it kind of pushed the envelope on that.
 
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