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Did Jon-Benet Ramsay's brother kill her?

I still think the JonBenet Ramsey case was a poor investigation and that leads and suspects were disregarded. It could have been another gross miscarriage of justice case.
 
I honestly think Fleet White from Colorado did it, and he was a prime suspect with Santa Bill and Chris Wolf in the initial investigation.
 
Henri McPhee said:
Fleet and Priscilla White have nothing to fear if they are innocent.
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Nor do you!

How would you feel if there were public attempts to implicate you in a murder? Would you so blithely suggest that it is perfectly reasonable and you have no problem with such accusations, given you are innocent (assuming you ARE innocent)?
 
Henri McPhee said:
Fleet and Priscilla White have nothing to fear if they are innocent.
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You must be talking about a different Universe and not this one. The bottom line is that innocent people have suffered disastrous and sometimes fatal effects from false accusations.
 
Henri McPhee said:
Fleet and Priscilla White have nothing to fear if they are innocent.
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You sound like the police officer who tells the person in his interrogation room, "if you're innocent, you don't need a lawyer". You're both obviously wrong and any person under arrest to believes that tall tale is one step closer to a conviction.
 
Henri McPhee said:
CBS should never have accused JonBenet's brother Burke of doing it without facts and evidence to back it up.
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On this case I'm undecided though much points towards the direction that no outsider was present. Sloppy initial investigation sabotaged the process and the murderer/s escaped justice. There's pretty much nothing to be done - so at least partially I agree: it is not fruitful to present a strong individual suspicion that cannot be proven. It's unfair to persons involved - though of course in general and open minded way various theories can be presented in media.

But. I find your way of debating totally irrational and misleading. You are not really participating in discussion but obsessively spreading an irrational and unshakeable personal conviction. This does amount to a sabotage of logical and open minded debate. Am sorry but I really have to block you if possible on this site.
 
llwyd said:
On this case I'm undecided though much points towards the direction that no outsider was present. Sloppy initial investigation sabotaged the process and the murderer/s escaped justice. There's pretty much nothing to be done - so at least partially I agree: it is not fruitful to present a strong individual suspicion that cannot be proven. It's unfair to persons involved - though of course in general and open minded way various theories can be presented in media.

But. I find your way of debating totally irrational and misleading. You are not really participating in discussion but obsessively spreading an irrational and unshakeable personal conviction. This does amount to a sabotage of logical and open minded debate. Am sorry but I really have to block you if possible on this site.
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It's not an irrational and unshakeable personal conviction. What I'm saying is that the media, like CBS or Fox News, and internet posters should never accuse John, Patsy or Burke, or say that no outsider was present, without evidence and facts to back it up, and not just with opinions and beliefs. That's libel. There is hard evidence that Fleet, and even Priscilla White, were involved which was never properly or thoroughly investigated. Just because the Whites are good at getting away with murder does not make them innocent. It's not just me who thinks this either. The Boulder DA office and Detective Steve Ainsworth were of the same opinion after the murder.

From the Steve Thomas deposition with Lin Wood:

19 Q. Now, you do know that after the
20 Boulder Police Department had investigated
21 Mr. Wolf, that the district attorney's office
22 was still actively investigating an intruder
23 theory and that Fleet White, Bill McReynolds
24 and Chris Wolf were on the top of their
25 suspect list. You do know that to be true,

116

1 don't you, sir?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And that would have been in 1998?
4 A. As to when the DA's office was
5 conducting this investigation?
6 Q. Yes.
7 A. They were doing a lot of things
8 we were entirely unaware of. But if you're
9 telling me they were doing that in 1998, I
10 won't contest it.
11 Q. Well, what you do know is that
12 the Boulder Police Department investigated
13 Chris Wolf as a suspect and you know that
14 even after the Boulder Police Department had
15 investigated him that the Boulder district
16 attorney's office was still investigating
17 Chris Wolf as a suspect and that he was,
18 along with Fleet White and Bill McReynolds,
19 on the top of the DA's list?
20 MR. DIAMOND: Just for
21 clarification, after the Boulder Police
22 Department cleared him?
23 MR. WOOD: Yeah.
24 A. No, I don't know that time line.
25 Certainly the DA investigators would but there

117

1 was a period in here where there -- this was
2 not a hand-in- glove fit and there was not a
3 lot of communication being shared.
4 Q. (BY MR. WOOD) Timing aside, we
5 can get clear agreement that Chris Wolf was
6 from your knowledge not only a suspect for
7 the Boulder Police Department, but at the top
8 of the list, along with McReynolds and Fleet
9 White, of the suspect list of the Boulder
10 district attorney's office in its
11 investigation, true?
12 A. Certainly seemed to be.
13 Q. And that was your understanding
14 and knowledge, right?
15 A. That they were still interested in
16 those parties, yes.
17 Q. That Mr. Wolf was on the top of
18 their suspect list, along with McReynolds and
19 Fleet White?
20 A. That was my impression.
21 Q. And knowledge, I mean not just
22 impression, you knew that as being a fact,
23 didn't you?
24 A. Yeah, they were still investigating
25 those three individuals.
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Henri McPhee said:
It's not an irrational and unshakeable personal conviction. What I'm saying is that the media, like CBS or Fox News, and internet posters should never accuse John, Patsy or Burke, or say that no outsider was present, without evidence and facts to back it up, and not just with opinions and beliefs. That's libel. There is hard evidence that Fleet, and even Priscilla White, were involved which was never properly or thoroughly investigated. Just because the Whites are good at getting away with murder does not make them innocent. It's not just me who thinks this either. The Boulder DA office and Detective Steve Ainsworth were of the same opinion after the murder.

From the Steve Thomas deposition with Lin Wood:
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Nothing there is "hard evidence that Fleet, and even Priscilla White, were involved..."

Sorry, Henri, but either man up with hard evidence or clam up. And I am not looking for miles and miles of quotes from elsewhere. Just tell us in 50 words or less what hard evidence exists.
 
This is what homicide detective Lou Smit said about the Burke matter in his deposition in 2002. CBS should read this:

Q. Based on your involvement, your knowledge of the case in its entirety, the evidence, has Burke Ramsey, Jon Benet's brother, ever been under the umbrella of suspicion in this case?

A. No.

Q. Is there any evidence that would even remotely suggest that Burke Ramsey was involved in the murder or death of his sister?

A. No. There is none.

Q. The Ramsey path or the Ramsey theory, as you earlier told me, only included either John or Patsy or both; right?

A. Yes.

Q. Not Burke?

A. Yes.
 
Ampulla of Vater said:
Nothing there is "hard evidence that Fleet, and even Priscilla White, were involved..."

Sorry, Henri, but either man up with hard evidence or clam up. And I am not looking for miles and miles of quotes from elsewhere. Just tell us in 50 words or less what hard evidence exists.
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You don't disregard leads and suspects, or just assume a Ramsey did it. Fleet White is a person of interest even if the idle and incompetent Boulder Police Department and FBI don't think so. I'm not the only person who thinks that either. Fleet White has been described as Rat White in the past.

Detective Lou Smit had a bit to say abut this matter during his 2002 deposition:

"This case really boils down to two things: It is either going to be the parents or it is going to be an intruder. And it really is quite that simple. Even though it is a complex case, it boils down to these two things. If there is evidence of an intruder, then it is not the parents. For about the past, actually, five years now, I have looked at every scrap of information made available to me and have analyzed this case.

I see clues pointing at an intruder, and that is the way the case tells me to go. Past experience has shown me, normally, the crime is what it seems to be. Don't make it complicated. This rule has guided me through many homicides. Almost every homicide I ever have worked, this is a rule that I followed, and I was told this by many experienced detectives: Don't make it complicated. And it has rarely been wrong.

The Ramsey case initially is portrayed as a kidnapping and a murder. A ransom note was left and a little girl was murdered. On its face, kidnapping and murder. Perhaps it is a kidnapping and a murder. And there is evidence to support this.

What a detective always looks at first when he looks at a case is motive. What is the motive for someone to kill someone else? You try to establish a motive. That is so important in a case involving homicide.

Every case I have worked, there has been a motive. In this case, there is also a motive. But what would be the motive for the parents to kill their child?

I can find no motive for the parents to kill their child. I can find no motive. If there is no motive, then it points strongly at an intruder. It is that simple. It gives you at least a clue of which direction to go.

You have to establish motive. What would be the motive for the parents. Just pulling a motive out of the air such as bed-wetting, saying that the parents killed their child because of bed-wetting, and stating it as a fact without substantiation is not evidence. It is only a guess.

Why would normal, loving parents, with no history of abuse or psychological problems brutally murder their daughter on Christmas night, one of the happiest days of the year for a child?

I can find no motive. That in itself is a clue -- and I am going to talk a lot about clues -- that we should look at the possibility of an intruder. First of all, there is no history of prior criminal conduct on the part of the parents. Either John or Patsy. None. Zero.

I don't think I have ever even seen a traffic ticket. These people are not criminals. And there is no evidence that they act or think like criminals. And this is very important. Whoever killed JonBenet Ramsey thinks and acts like a criminal. And I am going to show that to you in how this person does think.

First of all, there is no bad character traits for either John or Patsy. None. There is a long history of loving family relationships. They are respected in their community. They are active in church and school activities.

This in itself does not mean that they could not have done it. However, it is a strong indication of their character and stability.

This is the most investigated family in the world today. If there were any real flaws, someone would have come up with something by now. That has not happened."
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Personally, I think the JonBenet murder could be connected to the abduction of Madeleine McCann in Portugal with the same people involved and the same police inaction.
 
BStrong said:
Who cares?
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People are posting in this thread giving their opinion about the murder and who might or might not have done it. So I'd say, anyone interested in this thread.

If you're not interested, what's the point in coming into it and posting snark?
 
Rolfe said:
People are posting in this thread giving their opinion about the murder and who might or might not have done it. So I'd say, anyone interested in this thread.

If you're not interested, what's the point in coming into it and posting snark?
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Well, yes to your general point. But in the context of #935, I don't really care about Henri's posts.
 
The simplest theory is an intruder, and the motive may stem from the pageants, a disinctive crime, a distinctive family profile. Just not completely random. But I guess they explored the pedophile suspects. The Burke theory and parental cover up is wildly complicated and the police and medical services would surely have been called by parents with no form or motive.
 
not a thorough investigation

The relatively little reading I have done on this case suggested to me that the police largely left the area's sex criminals unexplored.
 
lionking said:
Well, yes to your general point. But in the context of #935, I don't really care about Henri's posts.
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I'm sorry, but it's rational to suggest that there could be a connection between the JonBenet Ramsey case and the abduction of Madeleine McCann. There are pedophiles in America who think they are above the law and will never get caught or punished, and that they can suggest ludicrous theories without facts that JonBenet died falling down the spiral staircase in an accident.

This Pizzagate pedophile scandal has thrown up names in America, like Sir Clement Freud and politicians in America who had connections with Portugal at the time.

There are other websites which also suggest a connection.
 
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Rolfe said:
People are posting in this thread giving their opinion about the murder and who might or might not have done it. So I'd say, anyone interested in this thread.

If you're not interested, what's the point in coming into it and posting snark?
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It was based on the body of work from the poster I quoted.
 
This is what the Ramsey housekeeper B thought about Fleet White, and she had practical knowledge of him:

B
16."John being fired"
This is the first time I have heard of John being fired????? I don't think so.

As for Fleet White, to me, as Jams knows, the guy has guilt written all him. He is a loose canon. I have met him and he gave me the creeps.

Not that it justifies murder but there is something "off" about that guy. Why was JonBenet terrified of him at the Charlevoix house? Her dad went to run an errand and left her with Fleet, John Andrew was out of the house, and my girlfriend who helped clean there said Jon Benet wouldn't leave her side when she got there in the late morning to work???? Stayed glued to her side. Fleet was up in the girls room when she arrived????? Later she saw him looking thru John's wallet while she cleaned their bathroom????? It was odd indeed and not something a guest in their house should have been doing. She even asked John when he got back to keep Fleet out of her way as he made her uncomfortable. Patsy and Pris were gone shopping. It was very odd behavior......So FW is not what he makes himself out to be.
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More from B about Fleet White:

This is what the Ramsey housekeeper B thought about Fleet White, and she had practical knowledge of him:

23."Laughter and Fencesitter."

Laughter and Fencesitter-Unless you live in Charlevoix you wouldn't even know anything about the wallet situation as it is not common knowledge or wasn't. The housekeeper in question has not been in the public eye, maybe LHP snooped but this friend of mine didn't. There are 4 housekeepers in Chx, all of whom have kept there mouth shut. I will assume you are an insider to the White camp or may be Fleet himself. Yes it was odd for an adult male to be in a child's room late morning with her parents out, the children were not in there and he had already been to the house many times so he wasn't admiring anything. I can go on with more details but won't bother as it is going into thin air. Fleet is a creep and has a bizarre background, two names, time in his life that is unaccounted for, two SSN's, he attached himself to the Ramsey's, fast friends, there is a lot unanswered. I hope the case with Nancy Krebs goes public so we can learn a bit more about Mr. White. He is an angry man who reacts in strange ways. Don't challenge me as you don't have a chance.
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More from B about Fleet White:

63."RE: B--you are a petty gossip"

No I am not. I am not who you think I am. Threats don't scare me.
Life is too short to worry or lose sleep over the likes of Fleet White. He is the one who should write a book, so we could just see how great he is. I am not slandering him, I don't like him that is all. I have a right to my opinion. He was not a true friend to John and Patsy, they just liked their lifestyle. If they had been true friends they would have behaved differently, this is what I know to be true. You don't fight with your friends at their daughter's funeral, that is not respectable or responsible. They need to apologise for that. As for being on the short list of names, they would have to be idiots not to think they wouldn't be investigated, they did a lot together. They just didn't want their past investigated.

Their friends daughter gets murdered and they jump ship. Pretty ****** if you ask me. I was raised differently, you offer support and kindness and don't make a spectacle out of yourself.
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In this recent Ramsey case Injustice book by former Boulder cop Bob Whitson he asks some interesting questions:

"Mark Beckner failed to present information about the intruder theory to the team of experts in 2009? Why? Anyone who disagreed with the prevailing theory that Patsy murdered JonBenet was ordered to be quiet and ostracized from the investigation. Why? According to attorney Lin Wood, the Boulder Police Department used the news media to falsely accuse John and Patsy of murdering JonBenet.

According to Lou Smit and based on my personal involvement with the case, the Boulder Police Department failed to conduct interviews with possible suspects or test relevant evidence. Why?

As I finish this book in 2012 it has been over three years since JonBenet's case has been returned to the Boulder Police Department. The case remains unsolved."
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Good for you, Henri, you've figured out how to get around the mod's admonition to not cut-and-paste more than two paragraphs (given in another thread); but you're still forgetting to post links!
 
The matter was discussed in, I think, the Colorado Daily newspaper in 2009:

"John Ramsey's attorney, L. Lin Wood, of Atlanta, said he and his client are optimistic about the change.

"The goal is to solve the murder, he said.

A letter police sent Ramsey on Monday asked for any information he was willing to provide, Wood said.

"I expect that sometime in the future they would speak with each other, he said, adding that he hopes police investigators can leave behind any bias they once had.

"Old habits are hard to break, he said. "My only concern is that this be a fresh look.

Trip DeMuth, a former Boulder prosecutor who worked on the Ramsey case, said he doesn't believe Beckner can handle the case without prejudice, and it is "less likely to be solved unless the department approaches it without baggage.

Larry Pozner, a Denver defense attorney who's been critical of the handling of the case, said he doesn't expect new leads or suspects to come from the task force or future police work.

"This case is badly damaged, Pozner said, "and there's nothing they can do to correct the impression of their bias or the evidence that was lost."
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This is what Detective Steve Ainsworth has said about the matter in the past and he is a real detective and he has worked on the JonBenet police investigation:

"I have not seen any evidence that would be compelling to suggest that John and Patsy did kill their daughter at this point," Ainsworth said.
 
Biz has recently discovered that Fleet White's pal Spade. or Tal Jones, is Fleet's half brother with the same biological father Fleet White Sr. Spade used to be a vehement Ramseys and 'Burke did it' on the internet forums. That information is relevant to the JonBenet murder and it should be investigated.
 
I still think the Boulder cop Trujillo needs to be DNA tested in case he coughed or sneezed at the JonBenet autopsy, or in transporting her to the autopsy.

The Boulder cops were, and probably still are, incompetent boobs, and they were supported by the FBI. The Ramseys had right judgment to get themselves a competent attorney from the start. Some prosecutors, and even defense lawyers, can be crooked. They need to be whiter than white.

There is a bit about what can go wrong in this internet article:

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/the-confessions/
 
Henri McPhee said:
It's not an irrational and unshakeable personal conviction. What I'm saying is that the media, like CBS or Fox News, and internet posters should never accuse John, Patsy or Burke, or say that no outsider was present, without evidence and facts to back it up,
snipped
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And yet you as an internet poster never fail to accuse who you believe to be guilty in any case under discussion with nothing more than your personal opinion asserted as fact.

I'd say that there is more than enough evidence to establish that you are exactly the type of internet poster that you cite as being in the wrong.
 
This is what Fleet White thought about the quality of the police investigation and DA and FBI investigation into the JonBenet murder. It's suspicious for a competent attorney. The Boulder detectives were too young and inexperienced to deal with a difficult murder. They were rookies:

You haven't proven ◊◊◊◊, except that you like to eat ◊◊◊◊. You love to eat ◊◊◊◊. That's what you've proven.

I don't need to be credited with solving this case. It would have made my life easier, but it wasn't absolutely necessary. I'll be satisfied with just killing the people who are covering up the fact that JonBenet fell down the spiral staircase.

The authorities won't be able to catch me. I've set it up to well. I can disappear and resurface anytime I want. Untraceable. I can strike anywhere.
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BStrong said:
Got a reputable source for that quote?
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That was Fleet White on the JonBenet Ramsey Topix forum. He used the alias 'Common Sense' in 2010 when he accused everybody else of being retards and accused the police of being dishonest. Then he later changed to 'one who has solved the case' with a ridiculous theory that JonBenet Ramsey fell down the spiral staircase in order to excuse his wrongdoing. Then he changed to 'I hate Henri McPhee' before he was banned some time in 2017.
 
Henri McPhee said:
That was Fleet White on the JonBenet Ramsey Topix forum. He used the alias 'Common Sense' in 2010 when he accused everybody else of being retards and accused the police of being dishonest. Then he later changed to 'one who has solved the case' with a ridiculous theory that JonBenet Ramsey fell down the spiral staircase in order to excuse his wrongdoing. Then he changed to 'I hate Henri McPhee' before he was banned some time in 2017.
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So......the answer is no, you are just drawing conclusions about the identity of someone on another forum.
 
Henri McPhee said:
That was Fleet White on the JonBenet Ramsey Topix forum. He used the alias 'Common Sense' in 2010 when he accused everybody else of being retards and accused the police of being dishonest. Then he later changed to 'one who has solved the case' with a ridiculous theory snipped.
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Citing yourself as a reputable source doesn't constitute evidence.
 
This is what 'Common Sense ' posted on Topix forum in 2009 with his ridiculous theory without facts that JonBenet fell down the spiral staircase. He looks like Fleet White to me unless I'm very much mistaken:

I suppose you can take it that way. You have to admit, if someone could take all the information and figure it all out, he or she WOULD be quite exceptional, right? You're just offended that I might be that person? You'd be offended by anyone who made that claim, even if it were true.

I never expected people to believe me on my word alone. But I was under the impression that if I made a claim that SOMEONE would have to check it out.

So I tell the Boulder authorities what I have discovered and they ignore me. So I file court documents alleging obstruction of justice and the Boulder Court ignores me. So I file a complaint with the Attorney Regulation Counsel of Colorado and they refuse to investigate. I contact the Attorney General's office and file a complaint and they ignore me.(No one in this office would be in a position to accurately assess my claim, so there should have been some type of inquiry and response.) I file a complaint with the governor's office and they ignore me.(No one in this office would be in a position to accurately assess my claim, so there should have been some type of inquiry and response.)

So I contact the media. No one is interested in investigating my claims. I try to hire an attorney to file a lawsuit based on some of the things Mary Lacy and Lou Smit said about me but no attorney will take my case. No publisher or book agent is interested in helping me publish the information.

Where else is someone suppose to go? What else is someone suppose to do. I will tell you this: when I have exausted every possible legal means of exposing the truth, I may try a different approach. When I am finished sitting peacefully and non-violently in front of this computer trying to find some way of exposing the truth, I may find a different way to establish justice for JonBenet.

After all, I have absolutely nothing else going for me!
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