Split Thread Conspiracy theories around the Russian invasion of Ukraine

Shiner said:
A country that committed genocide against its own citizens for a decade? A country that was infiltrated and manipulated by US and NATO skulduggery? A country who celebrated it's Nazism?
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So which parallel universe do you live in?
 
theprestige said:
... it remains abundantly clear that Ukraine is not hoping for peace ...
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Zoolinsky has been led by the nose of the American MIC-drenched "Democrats". I say "led" because they are dupes to the bone just as much as their intermediate cult followers called the EU which has now taken over for the ousted Biden administration. The MIC has promised them the world, not a difficult thing to do as you observe the mentality of their talking heads. They wouldn't be able to find the exit to the bathroom even if you supply them with a map. So ..... to support your statement, "Ukraine" has no control what-so-ever. All decisions are made by the MIC, pumped through the unelected buffoons in the EU, and enacted by the neurotic comedian calling itself Zoolinsky. "Peace"? Whenever the Black Rockers decide it's time to build, that's when Ukraine will declare peace, regardless of Zoolinsky visions of grandeur.
 
arthwollipot said:
And like I said, Putin's excuse for invading. But however you cut it, the Azov Brigade did not survive Mariupol. Are there survivors of the siege still alive? Yes, a few. But Putin's so-called "special military operation" was specifically in order to counter neo-nazi paramilitary groups in Donbas, of which there was, essentially, exactly one. What has Russia been doing for the last three years?
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Trying desperately to find a disengagement strategy that doesn't leave tens of thousands of embittered veterans gunning for Putin.
 
Shiner said:
A country that committed genocide against its own citizens for a decade? A country that was infiltrated and manipulated by US and NATO skulduggery? A country who celebrated it's Nazism?
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I await your proof of these assertions. :rolleyes:
 
The Ukraine has never been a country I respected in terms of their human rights problems and embrace of far right politics, but I nevertheless stand with the people of the Ukraine. The Russian invasion was evil, and hopefully it never succeed.
 
lionking said:
The Ukraine has never been a country I respected in terms of their human rights problems and embrace of far right politics, but I nevertheless stand with the people of the Ukraine. The Russian invasion was evil, and hopefully it never succeed.
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I never gave much thought to Ukraine prior to the invasion but to the extent I understand the situation, they had a lot of issues with corruption and oligarchic government and likely still do. So, sure not great but I can see that invasion by an even more corrupt and oligarchic country is bad.

Honestly the entire Ukraine bad therefore Putin good narrative is bizarre but works with the current Tucker logic of Churchill bad therefore hitler good. There reasons to not support Ukraine that make sense. Its not crazy to say that our support has just extended the suffering of Ukraine. Its reasonable to say that the economic cost is too high. I don't agree with either but I wouldn't say someone is crazy for thinking it. But to start there and end with Putin is right to invade Ukraine and/or its all the US's fault...... IDK, seems like its common for folks to be unable to accept shades of grey.
 
ahhell said:
Its not crazy to say that our support has just extended the suffering of Ukraine.
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Yes, it is crazy to say that. It's actually the definition of inane to even utter those words. It makes no logical or rational sense at all because it implies that, somehow, the Ukrainians would be better off under Russian rule rather than fighting for their own country. The nicest way I can say it is that's dumb as all hell.
 
IDK, how many Ukrainians have died in the last three years. If Russia had just rolled over them, would just as many have died, I don't know. The Russians are bad but they aren't the Soviets or even the NAZIs.

Again, I don't agree with that position, it is however rational and reasonable.
 
ahhell said:
IDK, how many Ukrainians have died in the last three years. If Russia had just rolled over them, would just as many have died, I don't know. The Russians are bad but they aren't the Soviets or even the NAZIs.

Again, I don't agree with that position, it is however rational and reasonable.
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Just continually saying so doesn't make it true. Its tantamount to saying that if a abuse victim just stopped upsetting their abuser they wouldn't get hit. Every death in the Ukraine war on both sides is the fault of the Russians.
 
Garrison said:
Just continually saying so doesn't make it true. Its tantamount to saying that if a abuse victim just stopped upsetting their abuser they wouldn't get hit. Every death in the Ukraine war on both sides is the fault of the Russians.
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And the response, no your wrong doesn't make you right either.

I agree, every death is the fault of Putin, I just don't think its crazy to say there would have been fewer deaths and less suffering if the west hadn't enabled Ukrainian resistance.

I do not think that is correct, I just think its a position that reasonable people can have, almost nobody has it, usually anyone who says that then goes on to entirely unreasonable ideas about how its all the fault of the Ukrainians and or the US.

I think the response to that is actually an example of what I'm so confused about. Folks can't seem to accept nuanced positions that accept that there are not angles. There are absolutely victims in this, every Ukrainian and almost every soldier the Russians have thrown at the meat grinder. There are villains Putin and his lackies. I agree with all of that and any framing otherwise is BS. All I meant to say, I do think there are reasonable arguments against US involvement. I don't agree with them but I can accept that people I disagree with are none-the-less reasonable.
 
ahhell said:
I agree, every death is the fault of Putin, I just don't think its crazy to say there would have been fewer deaths and less suffering if the west hadn't enabled Ukrainian resistance.
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It's bit crazy and despicable, in your desire for 'nuance' you are just trying to pin blame on the Ukrainians.
 
ahhell said:
And the response, no your wrong doesn't make you right either.

I agree, every death is the fault of Putin, I just don't think its crazy to say there would have been fewer deaths and less suffering if the west hadn't enabled Ukrainian resistance.

I do not think that is correct, I just think its a position that reasonable people can have, almost nobody has it, usually anyone who says that then goes on to entirely unreasonable ideas about how its all the fault of the Ukrainians and or the US.

I think the response to that is actually an example of what I'm so confused about. Folks can't seem to accept nuanced positions that accept that there are not angles. There are absolutely victims in this, every Ukrainian and almost every soldier the Russians have thrown at the meat grinder. There are villains Putin and his lackies. I agree with all of that and any framing otherwise is BS. All I meant to say, I do think there are reasonable arguments against US involvement. I don't agree with them but I can accept that people I disagree with are none-the-less reasonable.
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Yeah, this is just as inane as your original post. Anyone saying that Ukraine would have been better off without involvement and support from the West is full of ◊◊◊◊, and doing nothing other than carrying Putin's water.

You think the Russians would have just rolled over Ukraine, and that's it? You think the Ukrainians would have just accepted it and things would have gone on like normal? You seriously think there wouldn't have been a ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊ revolt, rebels? There were people throwing Molotov cocktails at tanks when they didn't have weapons. Old women in apartments lobbing them at troops advancing through their streets. Why, in the ◊◊◊◊, would you think that *if* Russia steamrolled Ukraine they would have just laid down, accepted it and went on? You think Russia wouldn't have gathered up all dissenters and capped them one by one in public? Jesus ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊ Christ, this is completely asinine. The premise alone is bonkers.

There is no reasonable argument against US involvement. There is no reasonable argument against UK involvement. There is no reasonable argument against Sweden, Poland, Germany, etc.'s involvement that doesn't result in carrying water for Putin.
 
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Garrison said:
It's bit crazy and despicable, in your desire for 'nuance' you are just trying to pin blame on the Ukrainians.
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Its a bit despicable to absolutely take my statement out of context and reframe as ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊◊.
 
Shiner said:
I'm not attempting to defend or justify Putin's motives. Azov were not the only openly Nazi brigade at all. They were just the most visible.

I have no dog in this fight mate. I think staunchly supporting either side is irrational.
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Notice how often when people deny something, that is exactly what they are doing?
 
I'm a proud member of NAFO:

nafo-ofan.org

We Are NAFO

The history of NAFO and its expansion is quite the tale. Read about it here.
nafo-ofan.org nafo-ofan.org

I have donated money to kill Russians, and I will donate MORE money to kill Russians. Bonus: I got a t-shirt!
 
Ian McCollum (Gun Jesus himself) of Forgotten Weapons fame is a member.
He has been wearing a NAFO patch at some recent shooting matches.
aprantly-gun-jesus-is-on-our-side-v0-4png9hs49pib1.png
 
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ahhell said:
And the response, no your wrong doesn't make you right either.

I agree, every death is the fault of Putin, I just don't think its crazy to say there would have been fewer deaths and less suffering if the west hadn't enabled Ukrainian resistance.
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I would dispute the highlighted part. Being invaded and occupied, having your children kidnapped and indoctrinated with the views of the invaders, and your entire national identity crushed, does, I venture, count as suffering, especially as a successful Russian occupation would be permanent.
 
There's a reason all those countries subjugated by Russia were so eager for independence.
 
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