arthwollipot
Observer of Phenomena, Pronouns: he/him
Miriam (Exodus 15:20), Deborah (Judges 4:4), and Huldah (2 Kings 22:14) were men too, were they?
Christianity is the epitome of group think.
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acbytesla
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It's not apparent to me.
How would we know? If scripture says that if we should eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil that on that very day we shall die and we don't. Does that mean we can toss out Genesis?
If Constantine or Athanasius 300 years after writings made by an unknown author 60 years after Jesus lived is canon and is the word of God. Can a Christian say, no, that's false. Can they dismiss the writings of Paul who was not acquainted with the living Jesus heresy?
What about the Nicene Creed? How about the trinity which was made at least 200 years after Christ?
Can they in turn say that Shakespeare, Dickens or Twain were prophets and their stories are truly, the inspired word of God?
One more for that, sure, it got group think but then what about every other relgion, multi-level marketing scheme, political ideology.......
psionl0
Skeptical about skeptics
That is what I get from the bible (eg Exodus 34:34). Many of the books of the OT were written by people described as "prophets".
I never said that it would be easy to sort the "God given" messages from the BS. Other than "prophets", deciding whether a particular church has the authority to preach the things they preach is also going to be difficult.
Of course, if you are an atheist then all of this is easy.
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arthwollipot
Observer of Phenomena, Pronouns: he/him
Everything in the Old Testament after the Song of Solomon is classified as "Prophets".
Okay, let me stop you right there. No matter the level of one's "religiosity", sorting out the hypothetical "God given" message from the BS would be quite literally impossible. Any other conclusion is simply untenable.
Then anyone with religious beliefs steps up and cherry picks the stuff he can accept and declares it the true word of his god.
I live among these very people daily.
And falling back to another point made much earlier he quietly ignores others have accepted points he has rejected. Strength in numbers even if some are slightly misguided.
It's those of us without strong religious beliefs that are the threat. If we reach the minds of the kids before they can put guilt and a fear of god into them it's bad.
My dad was certainly troubled none of his children would follow the path to salvation he believed to be true.
He even offered us special shortcuts his churches didn't know about.
psionl0
Skeptical about skeptics
So what are you disagreeing about?
Ian Paisley - when he died they sanitised his website - but he was a first minister of NI - the highest political office in NI, he was the most prominent leader of the "loyalists" and you can get a flavour of his views from the web archive of his website from when he was the first minister: https://web.archive.org/web/20070206113135/http://www.ianpaisley.org/main.asp
Anyone who thinks religion didn't play a huge part in forming and framing the Troubles shows they know very little. Sectarianism was and sadly still is a problem in NI.
People talk about no go zones in regard to areas where Muslim citizens live in the UK, if they want to see no-go zones based on your flavour of Christianity have a look at what was done in NI - huge walls and fences had to be built to keep the religious populations separated.
You wrote that it wouldn't be easy to sort out the "God given" message. That's not true -- it would be impossible. There is nothing to differentiate God's message, the Devil's message, or the mad ramblings of a mere mortal. And any "personal feeling" to the veracity of something also constitutes the mad ramblings of a mere mortal.
acbytesla
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Exactly. Seriously, what should anyone believe or accept? Every word of the Bible or the Quran is considered by the followers as God's revealed word.
Many Christian churches recite the Nicene or Athanasiun Creed which were written three hundred years after the supposed crucifixion. This is a statement telling Christians what the church that they belong to believes and what they should believe.
psionl0
Skeptical about skeptics
Technically it was sort out who is speaking a God given message but yes, it is nigh on impossible. (It is impossible to determine if it is impossible).
dudalb
Penultimate Amazing
And I could name some political movemtns which are just as bad.
acbytesla
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I said epitome. But you're absolutely right, politics, particularly democracy or democratic republics are more so. My point really was as a religion, Christianity is political.
arthwollipot
Observer of Phenomena, Pronouns: he/him
MinnesotaBrant
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I can pretty much tell what is what. I kind of instinctively know. I do work in a field where I talk to a lot of people who talk to god though so I know what you mean.
acbytesla
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Anything that is social isto an extent.
But Christanity in particular is. Especially how its holy book came to be.
MinnesotaBrant
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My take on Baha' faith is that it is a pretty conservative cult style religion my association with them is not great though so I may be wrong. Don't they have a bible museum in Minnesota somewhere?
acbytesla
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I have no idea about the Bahai' religion.
arthwollipot
Observer of Phenomena, Pronouns: he/him
Baháʼí basically take the nice bits from other religions and mash them together into a creed that says that there is essential worth in all religions. I've known a couple of Baháʼí. They're nice people.
Edit: Although I have to add that on an interpersonal level, Mormons are nice people too.
Edit: Although I have to add that on an interpersonal level, Mormons are nice people too.
When I read you bit about Baha'i I that's exactly what I thought, and Mormon beliefs are possibly even more crazy than the rest of Christianity.
MinnesotaBrant
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What a Mormon told me I think back in 1982 is that they don’t take their bible too seriously. It is a social based cult not a bible based one
Magi in the so-called Gospel of Matthew are traditionally considered, wise men. Magi, literal translation... magicians. Wise men, magicians, sorcerers, prophets, fortune tellers... same thing back in the olden days, really. Queue: Little Drummer Boy... pa rum pum pum pum.
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
"Magicians" is not a literal translation of "magi". It's a much later accretion/evolution of the original term in its original context. Literal translation is priests (or, in some sources, members of a tribe).
The Great Zaganza
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... With magic powers
Nothing in the Book of Matthew implies the three kings/wise men/magi having magical powers. The signs or prophecy they followed (whether in the form of a literal moving star, or as most Protestants interpret it, astrological signs) and the later warning dream would have been miracles from God. If they were astrologers, that alone would qualify them as magi in most cultures of the time.
The Great Zaganza
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The Magi at the Court of the Pharaoh had.
It's a reference
It's a reference
arthwollipot
Observer of Phenomena, Pronouns: he/him
When I was doing my mandatory scripture at school I got the strong impression that Moses' trick of turning his staff into a serpent was a miracle from God, but the Egyptian sorcerers used some kind of stage magic.
novaphile
Quester of Doglets
I believe that one has been explained.
Ground dwelling snakes go comatose if held vertically (with their head up) for too long.
In that state, they go fairly rigid, and could even be painted.
Once you put them horizontal again, blood flows normally, and they 'turn back into snakes'.
There's probably only a brief opportunity to perform that trick before the snake dies, would be my guess.
Like all 'magic' tricks it requires preparation and 'staging' that is not seen by the audience.
Okay, granted. I wasn't considering those magi. But, different Testament, different millennium, very different world. I don't think you'd find the priests in a Roman Governor's palace contesting the potency of their magic snakes. Not literally anyhow.
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
What translation are you reading? Does it use the same word for both groups?
arthwollipot
Observer of Phenomena, Pronouns: he/him
The KJV uses the words "sorcerers" and "magicians" (Exodus 7:11) but I don't think it's the definitive translation.
ETA: The Common English Bible says:
...which seems to me to reinforce the "stage magic" interpretation.
What does being "real" have to do with being "right" (whatever that means)? If all gods are real, does that mean all gods are right? Truth is, god believers merely want and believe their own god to be "real" and be "right".
Yep, horrible, nasty "man" (I'm guessing "man" is generic for "human"?). Why would a "real" god that is "right" create humans that are such horrible people?
I really don't understand the Christian "I'm a wretch, I'm not worthy, I'm damaged, etc." flagellation.
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
"Which seems to me to reinforce my interpretation" being the motto of all Bible interpreters, Christian and anti-Christian.
Doesn’t sound like “for argument sake” to me, sounds more like - “Some people have been mean and nasty to me so I don't like or trust all people and my life sucks. To make me feel better I’m going to believe in an imaginary friend that only can and will be nice and kind to me.”
Seems a comforting fantasy is your placebo cure for a sometimes uncomfortable reality.
ETA – If you don’t believe “God” really exists then you also don’t believe there really is any “word of God”, and “words of man” are all there really is. Makes you position very self-defeating, oxymoronic and dripping with cognitive dissonance. Guess you're just being an inferior, flawed human.
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arthwollipot
Observer of Phenomena, Pronouns: he/him
Indeed. Ironic, isn't it?
arthwollipot
Observer of Phenomena, Pronouns: he/him
If God is by definition omnipotent, omniscient, and omnibenevolent, then God is by definition "right". There can be nothing "right"er. And Euthyphro is satisfied.
Mysterious ways, friend. Mysterious ways. It is not for us to fathom God's plan. That's why we have faith.
That was Calvin's mental illness.
EHocking
Philosopher
It’s known as coercion control when discussing domestic violence.
Basically,
“you’re a ◊◊◊◊◊◊, join us and be saved.
Oh, and hand over a 10th of your wealth to help your soul on its way”.
arthwollipot
Observer of Phenomena, Pronouns: he/him
There's another aspect to it that Scientologists also use.
You're not just broken, you're broken in this specific way that only we define (Christianity - sin, Scientology - engrams). Only we have the only solution to the problem that only we can identify (Christianity - salvation, Scientology - auditing) so come to us to get it fixed. Oh, and hand over a 10th of your wealth.
Gulliver Foyle
Philosopher
God cannot be both by definition. If god is all powerful, thdn god must have the freedom to do what they want, thus precluding knowing the future. If god is all knowing, then thry must know the future with certainty thus precluding being able to do what they want.
It was this realisation that made me give up christianity, took me a bit longer to go atheist.
PS the "I am a wretch" strain of christianity is much older than Calvin, Aquinas and Augustine of Hippo were both in love with it too. In fact it's a significant part of catholic monasticism going back to the earliest days.