Chris Mohr's YouTube Part 23 Epilogue: WTC Dust Update; Saying Goodbye to 9/11 Truth

Hello Ziggi :)

I need to bug you once more, you are still running and hiding from a few simple questions. Last posted here:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=11026128#post11026128

:)

He will ignore you Oystein, typical truther tactic, he has no argument so he will ignore you.

I on the other hand did experiments that produced concrete results, and can be duplicated,
Basile does nothing, and will do nothing that will cut into his party fund.

Also wasn't there a great big party in New York with fire works on the 4th of July,
http://www.gwinnett.k12.ga.us/LilburnES/PromoteGA/entertainment/fireworks_elements.html. wonder what happened to all those Iron oxide micro spheres formed during that show?
 
Your talk is cheap.

I look forward to seeing your "published" proof.

You do know I sent macro spheres to Steven E. Jones, and have proof of such, which he ignored Macro spheres are hundreds of times harder to create than micro spheres for each
Macro sphere created tens of thousands of Microspheres are created!

The spheres can only be created while suspended in a gasious flow, like a chimney effect.
 
Criteria said:
Iron particles tend to be reduced in hydrocarbon fires. …Anyhow, reduction of iron oxides in hydrocarbon fires happens routinely enough that archaeologists can find traces of ancient fires…

”a forensic chemist with extensive experience analyzing arson debris told me he had not seen iron-rich microspheres in the fires he had studied.”


Irrelevant. Iron-rich microspheres are not forensically relevant to determining the cause or spread of a fire, because they're common in all fires. They're part of the ash, and part of the inert mineral component of the ash that would not register in forensic tests for accelerants. There's no reason for a chemist focusing on arson investigation to see them.

Soot residues in general are highly relevant to arson investigation. Yet, no chemist or arson investigator or anyone at all knew about the presence of fullerenes in ordinary soot until the late 1980s, after fullerenes had been synthesized in labs. They were always there, but chemists and other experts didn't know about them. They weren't forensically relevant either.

Reduced iron particles are forensically relevant to archaeologists because they can be detected by magnetic scanning and can reveal (among other things) the locations of ancient hearths, cremations, and burned structures where no visible trace remains above ground. So, archaeologists know they occur. Arson investigators have no reason to care.
 
In the initial steel wool experiment, you claim (and Dave agrees you may be right) that iron-oxide spheres were created, not iron-rich spheres.... Am I missing something here?

So Rev. Mohr, you have been answered: http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11028792&postcount=1636

Are you being serious, or are you kidding? My comment to Dave said he did not create spheres in his steel wool experiment and Dave acknowledged that little problem:

Originally Posted by Ziggi View Post
....not understand that you only blew up parts of the steel wire like a balloon and formed objects that look similar to previously melted spheres but are not the real thing. http://www.internationalskeptics.com...postcount=1563
Originally Posted by DaveThomasNMSR View Post You have pointed out some problems with the steel wool demo (not spherical, and probably iron oxide) which are probably relevant. That's why I have moved on
The above exchange notes that a problem with the steel wool experiment is that those object that looked "similar to" spheres are "not the real thing" meaning not spheres, or "not spherical" as Dave put it. And my comment to you was that you forgot to acknowledge that no spheres were created:
Originally Posted by Ziggi Mohr, you forgot to acknowledge the non-formation of spheres in Dave´s steel wool experiment. You´ll fix that in a jiffy?
No spheres were created in that experiment, not iron-oxide spheres and not iron spheres. No spheres at all. Do you understand?

You will correct your misunderstanding without further ado, right?
 
...
You will correct your misunderstanding without further ado, right?
Chris Mohr moved on; all you have is a fantasy of CD, and BS about thermite.
You are posting BS in a CT thread. You can't post your fantasy CD in news, or science; it is fiction, and anti-science.

Did you find real evidence thermite was used on 911? No. Is why you are stuck posting BS about Chris in a CT sub forum where crazy claims like thermite are discussed.
 
So Rev. Mohr, you have been answered: http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11028792&postcount=1636



You will correct your misunderstanding without further ado, right?
This is a waste of time. About 1:36 into this video, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jZ9wSD4Hcys we see spherical-looking thingys whose iron content was never measured. I never mentioned this experiment in my video because Dave followed up with a better one, much more promising. I understand your explanation but neither accept nor reject it. Back to my music.
 
This is a waste of time. About 1:36 into this video, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jZ9wSD4Hcys we see spherical-looking thingys whose iron content was never measured. I never mentioned this experiment in my video because Dave followed up with a better one, much more promising. I understand your explanation but neither accept nor reject it. Back to my music.

This is not "my explanation" but something you can look up in academic papers (as I pointed out in an article a while ago) and acknowledged by Dave Thomas. We know they looked a bit like spheres but you were asked to acknowledge like Dave Thomas who performed the experiment that those "thingys" were not really spheres:

Originally Posted by Ziggi View Post
....not understand that you only blew up parts of the steel wire like a balloon and formed objects that look similar to previously melted spheres but are not the real thing.
Originally Posted by DaveThomasNMSR View Post You have pointed out some problems with the steel wool demo (not spherical, and probably iron oxide) which are probably relevant. That's why I have moved on

Are you really not able to acknowledge this simple thing and move on like Dave Thomas? Do you have any idea how childish you would look?
 
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Are you really not able to acknowledge this simple thing and move on like Dave Thomas?

It's telling you have the time to engage in a pointless war with Chris when you should be working to return the money slated for the Basile study so Rick can get it back on track.

You are in charge, are you not?
 
This is not "my explanation" but something you can look up in academic papers (as I pointed out in an article a while ago) and acknowledged by Dave Thomas. We know they looked a bit like spheres but you were asked to acknowledge like Dave Thomas who performed the experiment that those "thingys" were not really spheres:



Are you really not able to acknowledge this simple thing and move on like Dave Thomas? Do you have any idea how childish you would look?

Why are you still mired in minutiae?

I see no need for continued quibbling about some really old, settled stuff.

I, for one, am more interested in doing additional research to answer the general question "Are elemental iron microspheres sufficient to prove the use of thermite?"

The answer I am anticipating establishing in no uncertain terms:
No.


Does this make you scared?

No, Chris is not acting childishly.

If you need an example of of what "childish behavior" looks like, you can start with your own evasion of some very simple questions.
 
Why are you still mired in minutiae?

I see no need for continued quibbling about some really old, settled stuff.

I, for one, am more interested in doing additional research to answer the general question "Are elemental iron microspheres sufficient to prove the use of thermite?"

The answer I am anticipating establishing in no uncertain terms:
No.


Does this make you scared?

No, Chris is not acting childishly.

If you need an example of of what "childish behavior" looks like, you can start with your own evasion of some very simple questions.

Can't wait to hear the results of your next experiments Dave, I would build Ziggi a vacuum chamber where he could test the red grey chips himself under argon or N2,
However I know it would never be used.
 
Why are you still mired in minutiae?

I see no need for continued quibbling about some really old, settled stuff.

Whether or not an alleged researcher/journalist known as Chris Mohr accurately reports the result of some discussion as "spheres NOT confirmed" or the exact opposite "confirmed" is no mere minutiae, and neither is Mohr´s consistent and continued unwillingness to acknowledge, explain, and retract his mistakes. I asked him about his comment here in public to display yet another example of his behavior, not to affirm "old settled stuff" as you put it.

I, for one, am more interested in doing additional research to answer the general question "Are elemental iron microspheres sufficient to prove the use of thermite?"

The answer I am anticipating establishing in no uncertain terms:
No.


Does this make you scared?.

Oh gosh Dave, yet another YouTube video? Is it going to be as horrendously boring, no funny in a tragic sort of way, no sorry, terrifying as your YouTube steel wool experiment that you just acknowledged days ago did not yield actual spheres even though you have been claiming that for 4 years? Do you really think I was the only one that knew about your mistakes there all those years? Hmm?

Or is it going to be really "scary" like your barrel burn video that you acknowledged days ago proved no sphere formation despite loud claims to that effect for 2 years?

At least there is a possible formation of a halving time trend for admission of failure there...maybe it will just take you 1 year next time to concede failure?

BTW, you have of course amended your 2 videos and your NMSR page to notify your fans of the failures discussed here in recent days? Or maybe you want to use Mohr´s excuse of "let it be" because no-one watches that stuff anyway?

If you need an example of of what "childish behavior" looks like, you can start with your own evasion of some very simple questions.

You try to change the subject every single time. I am addressing you and Chris Mohr about Mohr´s video and his behavior in that and in relation to that, which is the subject of this thread. I have no interest in getting bogged down answering off topic ranting from any of the number of trolls that frequent this thread. Why don´t you continue the discussion about your efforts to "debunk" Harrit et al?

Originally Posted by DaveThomasNMSR View Post
...Harrit et. al. have claimed they found Fe:O ratios of up to 4:1, but only for the spheroid appearing in Fig. 21. If this claim can be validated, that would indicate reduction of iron...
Originally Posted by Ziggi Now, that was not that difficult was it? The data shows that upon ignition the red material goes through a reaction that reduces the iron-oxide, as is expected with a thermite reaction. The reaction that melted the iron-oxide, was in other words not a conventional oxidation reaction, aka normal carbon fueled burning/oxidation.

Do you have an answer for that?

Originally Posted by DaveThomasNMSR
....What you and Criteria need to address is the simple fact that there are many ways to make iron microspheres BESIDES thermite,

You and others like to repeat this claim and variations of it, and ignore the answers. Can you acknowledge and address the answers below?

Originally Posted by Ziggi No Dave, blast furnaces can melt iron-bearing materials because they can easily achieve double the temperature limit of open-air fires and therefore the melting-points of iron and iron-oxides. This is why coal-burning power-plants create fly-ash spheres, but they are in a way the opposite to thermite spheres because they are comprised of iron-oxides, not iron, and they are created with a oxidation process that is the opposite to the thermite process.

None of this addresses or challenges Dr. Harrit´s paper in any way.

And this is a more direct answer to you claim:

Originally Posted by Ziggi The WTC Towers were indeed not sterile, the remnants of an energetic red material were found in the dust in the form of miniscule red/gray chips, and we already know this red material is one major source for the iron rich spheres found in the WTC dust, if not the only one. Your obvious problem is that the data by Harrit et al show that this material forms melted iron spheres via an oxidation-reduction reaction that uses aluminum to reduce iron-oxide, otherwise known as a thermite reaction. We therefore already know that a principal source for those WTC iron spheres was a thermitic material.

Do you have an answer? You cannot address the fact that the red material was obviously a big source for those spheres in the WTC dust by diverting the attention from that, and neither can you address Harrit´s paper that way.

Originally Posted by Ziggi If you repeat your steel wool and barrel burn experiments and cheat the 700C temperature limit of Harrit´s DSC and the 1000C limit of an open air fire with a torch(oxy-acetylene perhaps) that is hot enough to actually achieve the melting-point temperatures of the iron-based materials in the wire, the beams, the paint etc, you could melt those materials and perhaps even form spheres. You could do the same thing with a DSC set to maybe 1800C or some sort of a blast furnace as used by power-plants.

This way you could end up forming spheres but since you would be burning/oxidizing the metal you would end up with an oxide as is the case with the fly-ash spheres from power plants. This is the opposite process to reduction. This is not about comparing the oxygen levels of spheres formed via different processes; This is about noting the type of reaction which means oxidation vs reduction.To challenge Harrit you would have to melt and reduce 100nm iron-oxide in a DSC or oven or some other sort of a controlled air environment limited to 700C. Find a scientist willing to put his name along with yours and publish in a scientific journal. Don´t expect Dr. Harrit to respond to YouTube videos

Is this clear to you?
 
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Alright, notconvinced, this looks like a serious answer about which you habe thought. I'll try to respect that.

Likewise with your reply here..

The question is still: "What is it?"
It is known and agreed upon (is it?) that the red layer material is some organic polymer(s) with iron oxide pigmentsoxidizer and other mineralmetal fuel particles. It is undisputed that the organic matrix is energetic. So what still needs to be figured out is
  • What is the chemical and crytalline species of the other particles in the organic matrix?
  • Do any consituents other than the organic matrix contribute significantly to the exotherm, and if yes, how much?
  • What is the chemical species of the organic matrix?
Answers to these questions will imply an answer to the question "is this material thermitic?" and also "is this material paint"?

It's possible (in my view likely) the Al and Si are not crystalline but are spatially equant because of the solgel fabrication process. Also, we still need to properly define the exotherm by examining the pressure work. This has not been done.

If it indeed turns out to be thermitic, THEN it may become useful to figure out what it did in the towers.

Is the plan to claim that it can only be thermitic if it is entirely self oxidizing? And if it cannot react in inert gas, then it cannot have done damage to the towers? What will you do when it is shown to be explosive? You're avoiding the pressure work problem....

Millette was tasked to figure out what the material is.
He found it is NOT thermite because it contains no elemental aluminium.
He didn't exactly look either... we should call him 'Captain Oxidation'
He found that ALL of its constituents are consistent with primer paint.
There was therefore no need to go deeper into the reaction....
This is like saying you know I have a cat because I told you I have a four legged furry animal that gets fed twice a day and has all the constituent amino acids of a cat, yet I have a dog and since you have failed to open your eyes and see my dog, you insist it is a cat. Millette could have opened our eyes by heating his samples to their reaction zone, and shown us the dog.
Not really. He hasn't measured reaction velocity, he merely observed that his chip expanded and moved when heated.
I know, SMH..... and where is any diagnostic pressure work? Not to mention the failed education of the lion's share of graduate Americans who buy the progressive collapse BS. Duncan is right about one thing... 911 truth reveals failed education.... of Americans.
Have you ever roasted maroons and forgotten to cut into the skin beforehand? Then you may have opserved that maroons can and do "explode". Are maroons an "explosive material"? Nonsense. There is no chemical explosion. They don't even burn considerably. They explode because the hot plate boils the water in them faster than it can escape through the closed skin.
Similarly, Basile heated a chip on a hot plate. There is hardly any free water in the chips, but the organic polymer is certain to decompose, releasing gases, even before it catches fire. If and when it ignites, it releases more gases. If the gases inside the chip (for example: where the red layer touches the gray; was that chip on the heating strip with the gray layer down?) develop faster than they can excape the matrix on top, the chip will "explode". Properly enclosed in quote marks.
Hmmm... are you revealing functionality of the grey layer? Thus far my bet has been on it being a foil used in layered fabrication of explosive bricks (no Beech nut, I'm not talking masonry), but maybe it's used to suppress the gaseous expansion? I thought that's what the Si was used for... to quench the reaction a bit.

This is a far cry from what happens when trueconventional explosives go off.

Explosives create gaseous expansion, yes? So if the chips create gaseous expansion.... then they are 'true" explosives.

I naturally disagree with [1] and [2], and agree with [3], [4] and [5].
But even IF I granted, for the sake of discussion, that [1] and [2] were true also - and even if I granted that the towers were intentionally demolished using vast quantities of nanothermite: Then STILL none of all that proves that specifically the red gray chips are a thermitic material: There is simply no logical connect between all these premises that the assertion of "unreacted solid state explosive", because the chips are still not shown to explode, or to contain ingredients for a plausible explosive. There is still waaaaay too much ordinary organic polymer, too little oxidizer for the organic matrix to react explosively, and waaaaaay too little elemental metal (actually none). The material is still paint, and you'd have to look for your NT explosives elsewhere.

I do wish the public had a better handle on the nature of the "ordinary organic polymer" because there doesn't seem to be anything 'ordinary' about the reactive chips. By some definitions, C-4 might be classified as an ordinary organic polymer. And the notion that all of this doesn't prove the towers were blown up with this stuff, well... if it's shown to be explosive, then we're getting close. We need the pressure work to be calculated, period.


The assertion "bombs, likely once packed in a denser configuration" is bare. There is only fantasy, not evidence, supporting this.
Harrit et al, Basile, you - none of you have no explanation for the gray layer. None of you have an evidence-based explanation for the silicon. None of you have an evidence-based explanation what the organic material is.
You essentially have no actual theory explaining what the red-gray chips are and what they do - no hypothesis that could be tested.

We do have a full explanation. We can explain in a simple and elegant theory every little bit about the red-gray chips - what they are, what they do, where they came from, how they were produced and by whom, what each known constituent is, what it does, how it is produced. We make predictions and can tell you quite exactly how those predictions can be tested.

You reject without evidence one part of our theory, when we actually do have evidence (provided by Millette as well as Harrit et al) to support the "structural steel" claim. This is not how it goes. You need to give a reason why you assert "that the grey layer is steel from the buildings is a red herring".

Is there any good data on the radionuclide content of the WTC steel? Heck... is there even any WTC steel left to test? Might we look for those same isotopes in the grey layer of the chips? That could prove the grey layer is not from the towers.

But you have seen and read the paper by Harrit et al (2009)?
So can you admit now that the paper does not contain sufficient selection criteria and is thus inherently irreproducible?

The paper could use some work, but I imagine the authors thought the scientific community would flock to the research and validate their findings again and again. If anything, the paper has revealed the sheer cowardice of the academic world. It's deplorable that no other Universities sought to replicate their findings and that BYU submitted to what was basically bribery and extortion.

If there is to be a NEXT paper, it should incorporate more specific section criteria, and some statistical analysis on the accuracy of finding similar chips based on their criteria.

Why so timid? Selection by magnet and optical inspection ("red and gray layer") are the ONLY two selection criteria described by Harrit et al! Are you putting even those two into doubt?

I'm only doubting that they are sufficient, as I have not personally seen the dust.

(I actually, literally laughed out loud at the "(no charge coating)" remark. I read this as you demanding to do SEM-EDS without coating the specimen with gold or similar to prevent build-up of static electricity. If that reading is right: Could you please explain, just to entertain me, why you demand not to do that? :D

Because the charge coating would inhibit the drift of Al after MEK soak. If it is the case that the SEM-EDS is destructive testing and MUST include coating, then a statistical analysis of the selected chips needs to be performed to show that the AL and Si were likely adjacent prior to soak.

You and I both agree that Dr. Jones failed to demonstrate that his MEK-soaked chip even had any Al-Si-rich platelets to start with, right? So his conclusion that Al separated from Si is actually baseless?
We disagree that it was baseless. Harrit is a brilliant man, up against implications which are bigger than any of us. He undoubtedly believed his MEK chip was not substatially different than the rest of his SEM-EDS tested reactive red/grey chips. At a certain point, the prosecutor cannot teleport the jury back to the crime seen to witness the crime. They must relive it through implication and drawn conclusions, and proof beyond a reasonable doubt. You raise the strong argument that there is presently reasonable doubt, but resolving the Al Si separation post MEK will crush that argument and make this case ready for trial.
 
Solid as in not liquid. Equating that with diodes is your folly.
Yup
It matters little since thermite is a fantasy made up by old men who are paranoid conspiracy theorists. The folly here is Thermite Jones has left 911 truth for over unity super circuits of woo.
Jones and Harrit fool a fringe few who failed to read for comprehension a paper published in a vanity journal.


... Al Si separation post MEK will crush that argument and make this case ready for trial.

A whole mess of BS and nonsense followed by ... Case ready for exposing Harrit and Jones as paranoid nuts who lie about thermite. They waved their hands, achieved LEO, and say thermite. Why do they show kaolin platelets in their paper?

Why are you stuck posting BS in a sub forum for discussing lies and fantasy of 911 truth; why can't you publish your BS about thermite in science, or current News? lol

Are Jones and Harrit ignorant on chemistry, or BS artists? Why do the samples have less energy than thermite? Why does the DSC not match?
Why was no steel from the WTC damaged by thermite?
How much of the dust was iron spheres? ...

How much thermite did it take to destroy the WTC? How can thermite not burn when it was ignited? How did it survive not being used? How much thermite was in the dust from the WTC?

Any numbers to go with the BS? No
 
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Whether or not an alleged researcher/journalist known as Chris Mohr accurately reports the result of some discussion as "spheres NOT confirmed" or the exact opposite "confirmed" is no mere minutiae, and neither is Mohr´s consistent and continued unwillingness to acknowledge, explain, and retract his mistakes. I asked him about his comment here in public to display yet another example of his behavior, not to affirm "old settled stuff" as you put it.



Oh gosh Dave, yet another YouTube video? Is it going to be as horrendously boring, no funny in a tragic sort of way, no sorry, terrifying as your YouTube steel wool experiment that you just acknowledged days ago did not yield actual spheres even though you have been claiming that for 4 years? Do you really think I was the only one that knew about your mistakes there all those years? Hmm?

Or is it going to be really "scary" like your barrel burn video that you acknowledged days ago proved no sphere formation despite loud claims to that effect for 2 years?

At least there is a possible formation of a halving time trend for admission of failure there...maybe it will just take you 1 year next time to concede failure?

BTW, you have of course amended your 2 videos and your NMSR page to notify your fans of the failures discussed here in recent days? Or maybe you want to use Mohr´s excuse of "let it be" because no-one watches that stuff anyway?



You try to change the subject every single time. I am addressing you and Chris Mohr about Mohr´s video and his behavior in that and in relation to that, which is the subject of this thread. I have no interest in getting bogged down answering off topic ranting from any of the number of trolls that frequent this thread. Why don´t you continue the discussion about your efforts to "debunk" Harrit et al?



Do you have an answer for that?



You and others like to repeat this claim and variations of it, and ignore the answers. Can you acknowledge and address the answers below?



And this is a more direct answer to you claim:



Do you have an answer? You cannot address the fact that the red material was obviously a big source for those spheres in the WTC dust by diverting the attention from that, and neither can you address Harrit´s paper that way.



Is this clear to you?


Ziggi played for time, jiving us that we were voodoo...
 
Whether or not an alleged researcher/journalist known as Chris Mohr accurately reports the result of some discussion as "spheres NOT confirmed" or the exact opposite "confirmed" is no mere minutiae, and neither is Mohr´s consistent and continued unwillingness to acknowledge, explain, and retract his mistakes. I asked him about his comment here in public to display yet another example of his behavior, not to affirm "old settled stuff" as you put it.



Oh gosh Dave, yet another YouTube video? Is it going to be as horrendously boring, no funny in a tragic sort of way, no sorry, terrifying as your YouTube steel wool experiment that you just acknowledged days ago did not yield actual spheres even though you have been claiming that for 4 years? Do you really think I was the only one that knew about your mistakes there all those years? Hmm?

Or is it going to be really "scary" like your barrel burn video that you acknowledged days ago proved no sphere formation despite loud claims to that effect for 2 years?

At least there is a possible formation of a halving time trend for admission of failure there...maybe it will just take you 1 year next time to concede failure?

BTW, you have of course amended your 2 videos and your NMSR page to notify your fans of the failures discussed here in recent days? Or maybe you want to use Mohr´s excuse of "let it be" because no-one watches that stuff anyway?



You try to change the subject every single time. I am addressing you and Chris Mohr about Mohr´s video and his behavior in that and in relation to that, which is the subject of this thread. I have no interest in getting bogged down answering off topic ranting from any of the number of trolls that frequent this thread. Why don´t you continue the discussion about your efforts to "debunk" Harrit et al?



Do you have an answer for that?



You and others like to repeat this claim and variations of it, and ignore the answers. Can you acknowledge and address the answers below?



And this is a more direct answer to you claim:



Do you have an answer? You cannot address the fact that the red material was obviously a big source for those spheres in the WTC dust by diverting the attention from that, and neither can you address Harrit´s paper that way.



Is this clear to you?

Hey Ziggi what happens if Dave redid the steel wool experiment properly, following PHD Chemist Dr. Frank Greenings advice, instead of burning the steel wool exposing it to steam at 600C like what would have happened in the fires?

PS. I know you will not answer that question, the resulting hydrogen reaction Oxidizing the iron as well as suspending it in air, to form microspheres.:D
 
Likewise with your reply here..



It's possible (in my view likely) the Al and Si are not crystalline but are spatially equant because of the solgel fabrication process. Also, we still need to properly define the exotherm by examining the pressure work. This has not been done.

Pure Rubbish, Solgel is a mixing process it does not alter components it only disperses them.
The. Pressure work is less energetic than popcorn.



Is the plan to claim that it can only be thermitic if it is entirely self oxidizing? And if it cannot react in inert gas, then it cannot have done damage to the towers? What will you do when it is shown to be explosive? You're avoiding the pressure work problem....
Pressure gas work is not an explosive, it is a gas generator a propellant not an explosive.
That's why it was introduced at a fireworks convention.


He didn't exactly look either... we should call him 'Captain Oxidation'
Too dumb for words.

This is like saying you know I have a cat because I told you I have a four legged furry animal that gets fed twice a day and has all the constituent amino acids of a cat, yet I have a dog and since you have failed to open your eyes and see my dog, you insist it is a cat. Millette could have opened our eyes by heating his samples to their reaction zone, and shown us the dog.

Ridiculous, with out a fuel source heating the chips to 3000C would have made no difference!

I know, SMH..... and where is any diagnostic pressure work? Not to mention the failed education of the lion's share of graduate Americans who buy the progressive collapse BS. Duncan is right about one thing... 911 truth reveals failed education.... of Americans.
The only education that has failed is yours, Progressive collapse has valid science behind it,
Trutherism has only fantasy.

Hmmm... are you revealing functionality of the grey layer? Thus far my bet has been on it being a foil used in layered fabrication of explosive bricks (no Beech nut, I'm not talking masonry), but maybe it's used to suppress the gaseous expansion? I thought that's what the Si was used for... to quench the reaction a bit.
That's just dumb but some what correct SI in Sol Gels does slow the burn rate, making the thermite less explosive not more. Your now Talking low burn rate Aerogel thermites.




Explosives create gaseous expansion, yes? So if the chips create gaseous expansion.... then they are 'true" explosives.

No fuel air blasts create gasious expansion from heat, explosives create shock waves known is detonation, or blast waves, there is very little heat involved.
Like the blast waves from the exploding meteor over Russia, that was just a rock falling from
Space.



I do wish the public had a better handle on the nature of the "ordinary organic polymer" because there doesn't seem to be anything 'ordinary' about the reactive chips. By some definitions, C-4 might be classified as an ordinary organic polymer. And the notion that all of this doesn't prove the towers were blown up with this stuff, well... if it's shown to be explosive, then we're getting close. We need the pressure work to be calculated, period.
C4 is a nitrate explosive, nothing like the paint chips.




Is there any good data on the radionuclide content of the WTC steel? Heck... is there even any WTC steel left to test? Might we look for those same isotopes in the grey layer of the chips? That could prove the grey layer is not from the towers.
It is an identical match for A36 structural steel.



The paper could use some work, but I imagine the authors thought the scientific community would flock to the research and validate their findings again and again. If anything, the paper has revealed the sheer cowardice of the academic world. It's deplorable that no other Universities sought to replicate their findings and that BYU submitted to what was basically bribery and extortion.
The paper was vanity publishing nothing more nothing less!

If there is to be a NEXT paper, it should incorporate more specific section criteria, and some statistical analysis on the accuracy of finding similar chips based on their criteria.
Sorry will never happen.



I'm only doubting that they are sufficient, as I have not personally seen the dust.
Doubt all you want, but it will never change reality.



Because the charge coating would inhibit the drift of Al after MEK soak. If it is the case that the SEM-EDS is destructive testing and MUST include coating, then a statistical analysis of the selected chips needs to be performed to show that the AL and Si were likely adjacent prior to soak.

What Oystein said, you don't understand the tests.

We disagree that it was baseless. Harrit is a brilliant man, up against implications which are bigger than any of us. He undoubtedly believed his MEK chip was not substatially different than the rest of his SEM-EDS tested reactive red/grey chips. At a certain point, the prosecutor cannot teleport the jury back to the crime seen to witness the crime. They must relive it through implication and drawn conclusions, and proof beyond a reasonable doubt. You raise the strong argument that there is presently reasonable doubt, but resolving the Al Si separation post MEK will crush that argument and make this case ready for trial.

That could be accomplished with one inert gas ignition test, wonder why Ziggi and Basile are so against doing accurate science?
 
Why are you still mired in minutiae?

I see no need for continued quibbling about some really old, settled stuff.

I, for one, am more interested in doing additional research to answer the general question "Are elemental iron microspheres sufficient to prove the use of thermite?"

The answer I am anticipating establishing in no uncertain terms:
No.


Does this make you scared?

No, Chris is not acting childishly.

If you need an example of of what "childish behavior" looks like, you can start with your own evasion of some very simple questions.

Unlike my steel wool experiment yours failed because the combustion did not suspend the oxidizing Iron in mid air. A grinder or welder, or gasious hydrogen, or chimney effect will do that.

Carbon monoxide, reacting with iron oxide in reduction can also cause iron suspension in air creating microspheres.

Microspheres will only form when they are not effected by gravity pulling them onto a surface, you probably created hundreds of them i n the barrel burn, a magnet suspended over
The fire as I did would have acted as a capture device, allowing you to capture the microspheres in the combustion gases.
 
Whether or not an alleged researcher/journalist known as Chris Mohr accurately reports the result of some discussion as "spheres NOT confirmed" or the exact opposite "confirmed" is no mere minutiae, and neither is Mohr´s consistent and continued unwillingness to acknowledge, explain, and retract his mistakes. I asked him about his comment here in public to display yet another example of his behavior, not to affirm "old settled stuff" as you put it.



Oh gosh Dave, yet another YouTube video? Is it going to be as horrendously boring, no funny in a tragic sort of way, no sorry, terrifying as your YouTube steel wool experiment that you just acknowledged days ago did not yield actual spheres even though you have been claiming that for 4 years? Do you really think I was the only one that knew about your mistakes there all those years? Hmm?

Or is it going to be really "scary" like your barrel burn video that you acknowledged days ago proved no sphere formation despite loud claims to that effect for 2 years?

At least there is a possible formation of a halving time trend for admission of failure there...maybe it will just take you 1 year next time to concede failure?

BTW, you have of course amended your 2 videos and your NMSR page to notify your fans of the failures discussed here in recent days? Or maybe you want to use Mohr´s excuse of "let it be" because no-one watches that stuff anyway?



You try to change the subject every single time. I am addressing you and Chris Mohr about Mohr´s video and his behavior in that and in relation to that, which is the subject of this thread. I have no interest in getting bogged down answering off topic ranting from any of the number of trolls that frequent this thread. Why don´t you continue the discussion about your efforts to "debunk" Harrit et al?



Do you have an answer for that?



You and others like to repeat this claim and variations of it, and ignore the answers. Can you acknowledge and address the answers below?



And this is a more direct answer to you claim:



Do you have an answer? You cannot address the fact that the red material was obviously a big source for those spheres in the WTC dust by diverting the attention from that, and neither can you address Harrit´s paper that way.



Is this clear to you?

What is very clear to me is that you are desperately flailing around in a feeble attempt to distract people away from Harrit's bungled analysis.

Your entire assault on my demonstration that simply burning painted steel beams can produce iron microspheres is based on Ivan Kiminek's observation that the sphere might have been in the burn barrel before the beam was burned:
Ivan Kmínek 2 years ago in reply to Ziggi Zugam said:
I agree that the one loosely attached microsphere could basically originate from e.g. steel barrel.

But, you left out the most important part:
Ivan Kmínek 2 years ago in reply to Ziggi Zugam said:
But, Dave simply found and documented these microspheres definitely not originating from any thermitic reaction, which was the basic goal. They are as good as any other found iron-rich microspheres, as proofs.

Ziggi, look around you. Your world view is in shambles. Your precious Dr. Harrit's research has not rallied scientists around 9/11 truth.

Rather than obsessing with the claim that my irony microsphere might have been contamination, you should be much more concerned that Dr' Harrit's so-called "nanothermite residue" might be primer paint!
 
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Harrit is a brilliant man, up against implications which are bigger than any of us.

And here's a classic example of the intellectual inflation that plagues the truth movement. In real life, Harrit is a minor league academic who's never really done anything of note. However, against the background of the intellectual impoverishment of the truth movement, he's somehow transformed into the super-scientist whose every work is a great masterpiece, and whose word cannot be doubted on anything, whether within or far removed from his extremely narrow area of expertise. I suppose it's the inevitable result of incompetence being the primary qualification for membership.

Dave
 
If Ziggi can win people to his side with the arguments he's making here, I have to wonder why he wants a bunch of idiots on his side.
 
And here's a classic example of the intellectual inflation that plagues the truth movement. In real life, Harrit is a minor league academic who's never really done anything of note. However, against the background of the intellectual impoverishment of the truth movement, he's somehow transformed into the super-scientist whose every work is a great masterpiece, and whose word cannot be doubted on anything, whether within or far removed from his extremely narrow area of expertise. I suppose it's the inevitable result of incompetence being the primary qualification for membership.

Dave

It's always interested me how many Truthers so diligently insist on applying professional titles to their heroes - it's Doctor this and Professor that all the way. I'm going to ask to be referred to GlennB BSc YYPC from now on.
 
It has been stated by Harrit and his group that they had identified different types of red/gray, magnetically attracted chips.

1. Paint chips
2. Thermitic chips
3. Other chips

How did Harrit and his group determine that some of the chips they extracted were paint chips?
 
Question for truthers who believe Harrit's paper.

If ignition of a chip was key in determining if it was thermtic or not, how did Harrit determine chips that DIDN'T ignite were dead THERMITIC chips?

It seems that ignition can be dropped from the criteria of determining if chips are thermitic or not right?
 
Now, that was not that difficult was it? The data shows that upon ignition the red material goes through a reaction that reduces the iron-oxide, as is expected with a thermite reaction. The reaction that melted the iron-oxide, was in other words not a conventional oxidation reaction, aka normal carbon fueled burning/oxidation.
How did Harrit determine that he also had dead THEMRITIC chips? I though ignition of the chip and resultant microspheres were part of the criteria? The most important criteria correct?
 
It has been stated by Harrit and his group that they had identified different types of red/gray, magnetically attracted chips.

Has it? The paper doesn't suggest anything of the sort; it simply refers to "the red/gray chips" and strongly implies that they are all identical. I thought the different kinds of chip were just the recent invention of one or two truthers on this forum, made up on the spot to answer some awkward questions, which we were all expected to accept uncritically.

Dave
 
. I thought the different kinds of chip were just the recent invention of one or two truthers on this forum, made up on the spot to answer some awkward questions, which we were all expected to accept uncritically.

Dave

I thought everything truthers on this forum say about these special super nano thermite chips was made up. The authors of the paper have gone underground apart from a few red herrings from Jones on 911 blogger and a very embarrassing court appearance by Harrit.

I would be very surprised if any of the present truthers on this forum have ever made contact with the authors.
 
I thought everything truthers on this forum say about these special super nano thermite chips was made up. The authors of the paper have gone underground apart from a few red herrings from Jones on 911 blogger and a very embarrassing court appearance by Harrit.

I would be very surprised if any of the present truthers on this forum have ever made contact with the authors.

The officers have abandoned the ship while the crew bails frantically.
 
I thought the different kinds of chip were just the recent invention of one or two truthers on this forum, made up on the spot to answer some awkward questions, which we were all expected to accept uncritically.

Dave

I think it started with MM, who homed in on the word "distinctive" in the report as a way of getting round some difficulties, such as finding a way to explain why Basile's selection method failed to locate thermitic chips as he wasn't able to "eyeball" the correct chips from among similar candidates.

It's total wankerage, all things considered.
 
I think it started with MM, who homed in on the word "distinctive" in the report as a way of getting round some difficulties, such as finding a way to explain why Basile's selection method failed to locate thermitic chips as he wasn't able to "eyeball" the correct chips from among similar candidates.

Careful, now. Did you mean Criteria, who is a completely different person?

It's total wankerage, all things considered.

Yes, the whole thing strikes me as a complete load of microspheres.

Dave
 
What is very clear to me is that you are desperately flailing around in a feeble attempt to distract people away from Harrit's bungled analysis.

Don´t be so pathetic Dave. My post that you refer to contains my encouragement to you to stop changing the subject, in this case away from Harrit´s paper:

Originally Posted by Ziggi You try to change the subject every single time....Why don´t you continue the discussion about your efforts to "debunk" Harrit et al?

This comment in my post was followed by a long list of comments about Harrit´s analysis, your non-understanding of it, and your attempts to debunk it. Can you address these or will you try to hide your inability to do so yet again by changing the subject?

Originally Posted by DaveThomasNMSR
...Harrit et. al. have claimed they found Fe:O ratios of up to 4:1, but only for the spheroid appearing in Fig. 21. If this claim can be validated, that would indicate reduction of iron...
Originally Posted by Ziggi Now, that was not that difficult was it? The data shows that upon ignition the red material goes through a reaction that reduces the iron-oxide, as is expected with a thermite reaction. The reaction that melted the iron-oxide, was in other words not a conventional oxidation reaction, aka normal carbon fueled burning/oxidation.

Do you have an answer for that?

Originally Posted by DaveThomasNMSR
....What you and Criteria need to address is the simple fact that there are many ways to make iron microspheres BESIDES thermite,

You and others like to repeat this claim and variations of it, and ignore the answers. Can you acknowledge and address the answers below?
Originally Posted by Ziggi No Dave, blast furnaces can melt iron-bearing materials because they can easily achieve double the temperature limit of open-air fires and therefore the melting-points of iron and iron-oxides. This is why coal-burning power-plants create fly-ash spheres, but they are in a way the opposite to thermite spheres because they are comprised of iron-oxides, not iron, and they are created with a oxidation process that is the opposite to the thermite process.

None of this addresses or challenges Dr. Harrit´s paper in any way.

And this is a more direct answer to you claim:

Originally Posted by Ziggi The WTC Towers were indeed not sterile, the remnants of an energetic red material were found in the dust in the form of miniscule red/gray chips, and we already know this red material is one major source for the iron rich spheres found in the WTC dust, if not the only one. Your obvious problem is that the data by Harrit et al show that this material forms melted iron spheres via an oxidation-reduction reaction that uses aluminum to reduce iron-oxide, otherwise known as a thermite reaction. We therefore already know that a principal source for those WTC iron spheres was a thermitic material.

Do you have an answer? You cannot address the fact that the red material was obviously a big source for those spheres in the WTC dust by diverting the attention from that, and neither can you address Harrit´s paper that way.

Originally Posted by Ziggi If you repeat your steel wool and barrel burn experiments and cheat the 700C temperature limit of Harrit´s DSC and the 1000C limit of an open air fire with a torch(oxy-acetylene perhaps) that is hot enough to actually achieve the melting-point temperatures of the iron-based materials in the wire, the beams, the paint etc, you could melt those materials and perhaps even form spheres. You could do the same thing with a DSC set to maybe 1800C or some sort of a blast furnace as used by power-plants.

This way you could end up forming spheres but since you would be burning/oxidizing the metal you would end up with an oxide as is the case with the fly-ash spheres from power plants. This is the opposite process to reduction. This is not about comparing the oxygen levels of spheres formed via different processes; This is about noting the type of reaction which means oxidation vs reduction.
To challenge Harrit you would have to melt and reduce 100nm iron-oxide in a DSC or oven or some other sort of a controlled air environment limited to 700C. Find a scientist willing to put his name along with yours and publish in a scientific journal. Don´t expect Dr. Harrit to respond to YouTube videos

Is this clear to you?
 
Don´t be so pathetic Dave. My post that you refer to contains my encouragement to you to stop changing the subject, in this case away from Harrit´s paper:



This comment in my post was followed by a long list of comments about Harrit´s analysis, your non-understanding of it, and your attempts to debunk it. Can you address these or will you try to hide your inability to do so yet again by changing the subject?

Is it clear to you that carbon reduces iron oxide?
 
Don´t be so pathetic Dave. My post that you refer to contains my encouragement to you to stop changing the subject, in this case away from Harrit´s paper:

This comment in my post was followed by a long list of comments about Harrit´s analysis, your non-understanding of it, and your attempts to debunk it. Can you address these or will you try to hide your inability to do so yet again by changing the subject?

Is this clear to you?

What's clear to me is that you have a lengthy compendium of words that you'd like to put in my mouth, and I'm not cooperating to your satisfaction.

What's also clear to me is that your line of questioning is falling flat.

 
Careful, now. Did you mean Criteria, who is a completely different person?

MM said:
The difference between the reference Bentham images (4 individual photos with consistent color balance) and the Millette image, is "readily discernible by eye due to their distinctive color."

Though I did mix up Basile with Millette. Bloody Frenchy surnames :rolleyes:

However, Criteria admits to being a student of MM. Not sure if MM was the best tutor of all time, but the choice is limited in TrutherWorld.
 
And here's a classic example of the intellectual inflation that plagues the truth movement. In real life, Harrit is a minor league academic who's never really done anything of note. However, against the background of the intellectual impoverishment of the truth movement, he's somehow transformed into the super-scientist whose every work is a great masterpiece, and whose word cannot be doubted on anything, whether within or far removed from his extremely narrow area of expertise. I suppose it's the inevitable result of incompetence being the primary qualification for membership.

Dave
It is my perception that Niels Harrit is more accomplished as a musician than as a scientist. Prior to the 2009 Bentham hoax, he was mostly know as a jazz saxophonist, having played with some of the best in Denmark, while as a chemist, he never advanced beyond the rank of "lecturer", which is pretty much equivalent to an assistant professor. He was not known for anything scholarly at all outside his university and his immediate and very limited field of academic research.

By the way, Harrit is not the only able musician in the TM: Tony Rooke composed and played the score for his latest full-feature 9/11 CT documentary, and I heard that Ziggi plays in a band and writes music lyrics. Perhaps this is food for a new, lighter thread: I am of course also thinking about Chris Mohr who has composed an opera! Is there something common to musicians that attracte them to CTs - or vice versa? :p
ETA: Forgot Ace Baker, who is a music professional (producer, composer, keyboarder) /ETA


@ notconvinced: I have read your post #1657 with interest, but didn't find the time today to respond fully. Certainly won't have time tomorrow, and the days after that don't look promising (this is christmas time, and I just started a renovation project that I want to finish before sunday). Feel free to remind me!
 
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