But it's Natural

Gord_in_Toronto

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Gord_in_Toronto
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Cannabis Use Linked to Epigenetic Changes, Scientists Discover

Original paper here:

Genome-wide DNA methylation association study of recent and cumulative marijuana use in middle aged adults


Abstract

Marijuana is a widely used psychoactive substance in the US and medical and recreational legalization has risen over the past decade. Despite the growing number of individuals using marijuana, studies investigating the association between epigenetic factors and recent and cumulative marijuana use remain limited. We therefore investigated the association between recent and cumulative marijuana use and DNA methylation levels. Participants from the Coronary Artery Risk Development in Young Adults Study with whole blood collected at examination years (Y) 15 and Y20 were randomly selected to undergo DNA methylation profiling at both timepoints using the Illumina MethylationEPIC BeadChip. Recent use of marijuana was queried at each examination and used to estimate cumulative marijuana use from Y0 to Y15 and Y20. At Y15 (n = 1023), we observed 22 and 31 methylation markers associated (FDR P ≤ 0.05) with recent and cumulative marijuana use and 132 and 16 methylation markers at Y20 (n = 883), respectively. We replicated 8 previously reported methylation markers associated with marijuana use. . . .
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This can't be good. But then who expected stuffing random chemicals into your body was a good thing? :(
 
I agree, this isn't good.

I want to affect my entire germ line by smoking pot, leave something to my offspring!
 
So what?

As far as vices go, I'm not seeing anything here that is more harmful than any other commonly accepted vices.
 
What a waste of time to read. All it basically said was "there was this pot study and maybe it might kinda point to possible health issues with long-term use. But maybe not."

On the plus side, I didn't see any ads.
 
All natural:
Botulism.
Carbon Monoxide.
Rattlesnakes.
Cancer.
Smallpox.
Gravity, and that sudden stop at the bottom.
Life. And everything that opposes it.
 
"Epigentic markers"? Is that necessarily a bad thing?

Not that I am pro-pot, alcohol is my preference. But I'll bet that are are some beneficial epigenetic things. Anybody ever heard of any? Something rather nebulous? Conscientiousness? Dislike of Lima beans?
 
My hippy dippy new agey sister in law will munch on any plant her fellow faux witches recommend, and tells me it won't hurt because it's pure and all natural. I point out that uranium is, too. She says that's different
 
Thermal said:
My hippy dippy new agey sister in law will munch on any plant her fellow faux witches recommend, and tells me it won't hurt because it's pure and all natural. I point out that uranium is, too. She says that's different
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The secret ingredient is "special pleading."
 
Thermal said:
My hippy dippy new agey sister in law will munch on any plant her fellow faux witches recommend, and tells me it won't hurt because it's pure and all natural. I point out that uranium is, too. She says that's different
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That's kinda weird, because generally speaking it's shorter to keep a list of wild plants that won't kill you than vice versa.

Tobacco is natural of course and an extremely addictive and hazardous substance, even if not processed like modern tobacco products are.
 
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Tell her what's natural is to have lots of babies, watch half of them die, and be dead by the time she's 35.
 
Thermal said:
My hippy dippy new agey sister in law will munch on any plant her fellow faux witches recommend, and tells me it won't hurt because it's pure and all natural. I point out that uranium is, too. She says that's different
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My sister is the same way. God forbid she ever gets cancer; she'll try every homeopathic/hocus pocus "cure" in the book and avoid radiation/chemo like the plague.
 
TurkeysGhost said:
So what?

As far as vices go, I'm not seeing anything here that is more harmful than any other commonly accepted vices.
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casebro said:
"Epigentic markers"? Is that necessarily a bad thing?

Not that I am pro-pot, alcohol is my preference. But I'll bet that are are some beneficial epigenetic things. Anybody ever heard of any? Something rather nebulous? Conscientiousness? Dislike of Lima beans?
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I prefer alcohol but I prefer that other people smoke pot.

I do get a bit annoyed by the enthusiasts who want us to believe that its a panacea free of any negative side effects though. You want to get high, fine, don't act like smoking every day is good for you. Still, definitely not as bad for as alcohol or smoking tabacco. I don't see anything in the link article that shows me otherwise.
 
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arthwollipot said:
Someone want to translate this for those of us who don't speak Research-paper-ese?
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I'll give it a crack...

DNA contains a lot of potential to do things, but it doesn't all do stuff all the time.
Sometimes something has to happen that causes DNA to be used. (Technically, how your DNA is 'read' by processes that do things)
For example, if a person is stressed, different chemistry occurs in the body, which causes other things to happen.
This idea is called 'epigenetics'.

It doesn't do permanent damage to your DNA but can cause other bad outcomes.

So... making up a wild claim... it could be something like:

Chemical X causes Gene Y to be read in a manner that protein Z is expressed as protein Z1... Protein Z is used in brain functions. Protein Z1 is implicated as a trigger for schizophrenia.

I'm pretty sure that I've seen many research papers over the years that say that marijuana should never be smoked but should only be ingested via the GI tract. (Because burning things almost always causes really nasty chemicals to be produced)

And... Many people mix marijuana with tobacco before burning it.

This is considered to be really problematic because of all the nasty chemicals (including additives to make tobacco burn faster and be more addictive) present in tobacco, combined with all the nasty chemicals being created by burning marijuana.

Especially as consuming marijuana in this fashion takes away the filter that is present in commercially produced cigarettes. (Cigarette filters absorb a lot of the 'tar' in tobacco smoke that contains a lot of the chemical detritus.)
 
novaphile said:
I'll give it a crack...

DNA contains a lot of potential to do things, but it doesn't all do stuff all the time.
Sometimes something has to happen that causes DNA to be used. (Technically, how your DNA is 'read' by processes that do things)
For example, if a person is stressed, different chemistry occurs in the body, which causes other things to happen.
This idea is called 'epigenetics'.

It doesn't do permanent damage to your DNA but can cause other bad outcomes.

So... making up a wild claim... it could be something like:

Chemical X causes Gene Y to be read in a manner that protein Z is expressed as protein Z1... Protein Z is used in brain functions. Protein Z1 is implicated as a trigger for schizophrenia.

I'm pretty sure that I've seen many research papers over the years that say that marijuana should never be smoked but should only be ingested via the GI tract. (Because burning things almost always causes really nasty chemicals to be produced)

And... Many people mix marijuana with tobacco before burning it.

This is considered to be really problematic because of all the nasty chemicals (including additives to make tobacco burn faster and be more addictive) present in tobacco, combined with all the nasty chemicals being created by burning marijuana.

Especially as consuming marijuana in this fashion takes away the filter that is present in commercially produced cigarettes. (Cigarette filters absorb a lot of the 'tar' in tobacco smoke that contains a lot of the chemical detritus.)
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I tried reading this: EpigeneticsWP

. . . . but am not much wiser. :confused:
 
ahhell said:
I do get a bit annoyed by the enthusiasts who want us to believe that its a panacea free of any negative side effects though. You want to get high, fine, don't act like smoking every day is good for you. Still, definitely not as bad for as alcohol or smoking tabacco. I don't see anything in the link article that shows me otherwise.
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I likewise don't partake and instead prefer the much more harmful booze.

I think it really irks the puritanical streak (at least in America) that this widely enjoyed intoxicant doesn't seem to have any really nasty side effects. So much for a Just World where potheads get their comeuppance. I imagine smoking anything is probably not great for your lungs, mouth, and throat, but of course there are also smoke free ways to take THC.

It doesn't seem to be particularly addictive (beyond how any habit can be addictive in certain contexts) and doesn't seem to negatively impact health in any serious way, and it drives the drug warriors crazy that there are few natural consequences for this evil act.
 
TurkeysGhost said:
I likewise don't partake and instead prefer the much more harmful booze.

I think it really irks the puritanical streak (at least in America) that this widely enjoyed intoxicant doesn't seem to have any really nasty side effects. So much for a Just World where potheads get their comeuppance. I imagine smoking anything is probably not great for your lungs, mouth, and throat, but of course there are also smoke free ways to take THC.

It doesn't seem to be particularly addictive (beyond how any habit can be addictive in certain contexts) and doesn't seem to negatively impact health in any serious way, and it drives the drug warriors crazy that there are few natural consequences for this evil act.
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Reminds of an add that I can't find on youtube. Guy talking about how everyone told him pot would do all these terrible things and it ends with him say, but they were wrong, I'm exactly where I was when I started smoking pot. Pan out to his mom's basement.

Probably the most accurate anti pot add. Fine in moderation but I've known some folks that did basically that.

IDK, maybe other people are like this but in America we seem to have a problem with moderation and nuance. We can't just say, "Sure, its probably not great for you, especially if you have too much, but it's not that bad either."

ETA, I've also had some folks try to convince me that pot is somehow negatively addictive. They were pretty much always high, so it wasn't that convincing.
 
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ahhell said:
Reminds of an add that I can't find on youtube. Guy talking about how everyone told him pot would do all these terrible things and it ends with him say, but they were wrong, I'm exactly where I was when I started smoking pot. Pan out to his mom's basement.

Probably the most accurate anti pot add. Fine in moderation but I've known some folks that did basically that.

IDK, maybe other people are like this but in America we seem to have a problem with moderation and nuance. We can't just say, "Sure, its probably not great for you, especially if you have too much, but it's not that bad either."

ETA, I've also had some folks try to convince me that pot is somehow negatively addictive. They were pretty much always high, so it wasn't that convincing.
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I've seen a similar ad from the USA, something like:

"Nothing happens to you if you smoke pot, ever again."

The camera reveals two middle aged men, sitting by the bedroom window in a small apartment, waving away the smoke because their mother has come home.

It's something that I've noticed in my cohort of friends, people fall into one of two categories:

1. Very occasional users, who never get stoned as such, but enjoy a very small amount approximately once per month (or less frequently).

2. Habitual, frequent, users who have no life, and no ambition of any kind.

My instinct is that any heavy use of depressants would result in the second category.
(Note that this is very similar to alcohol, i.e. it is a depressant if consumed in quantity)
 
Wudang said:
Googling "pubmed marijuana epigenetics" the first hit is (from 2022)
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/352...ic,explore mechanisms underlying this linkage.

Conclusions: Marijuana use predicted epigenetic changes linked to accelerated aging, with evidence suggesting that effects may be primarily due to hydrocarbon inhalation among marijuana smokers. Further research is warranted to explore mechanisms underlying this linkage.
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So the same long-term effect (or one of the same effects) as smoking tobacco, apparently.
 
dann said:
So the same long-term effect (or one of the same effects) as smoking tobacco, apparently.
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For habitual THC enjoyers, finding a smoke free alternative is probably good health advice, though my understanding is that the high achieved from edibles is different in quality than smoked versions.

That said, edible THC is very popular in my neck of the woods.
 
I suspect the primary risk of marijuana that doesn't really exist for tobacco, as mentioned above tangentially, is psychological. I was and still am, honestly, a heavy user. I've seen the same developments in the other chronic users in their lives, anecdotally of course: heavy users are absolutely fuzzier and more passive about life, on balance.

I think there's a false equivalence that happens where people who have had a problem (me) can easily rationalize it because it's viewed so favorably now, and as far as pain-to-pleasure ratios of psychoactives go, it's pretty kind to the body. But the druggie mantra "no free lunch" absolutely applies to THC too, and chronic use carries real risks.

One particular effect I would like to learn more about is sudden panic. Most former chronic users I know quit because suddenly, it changed. Rather than putting them in that relaxed, trippy headspace of laughter, it induced a very immediate panic attack response. Happened to me for no apparent reason after some new life stresses, though I wasn't stressed consciously when it happened. Instant feelings of squeezing, radiating pain from my chest, head went ice cold, instant feelings of dread before I could even process the pain. Scared the hell out of me.

I'll add, too, that I know the risk of inducing psychosis is real. In bad times I can't partake anymore as I immediately experience what I describe as "loud thoughts" about everything wrong in my life, with somewhat peculiar lateral associations scattered throughout. I do have a history of depression and other mental health stuff (though not schizophrenia). It's never made me lose touch with reality fully, though weed DID do that in the early days in a way that no description would have ever prepared me for.
 
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Glunn11 said:
I suspect the primary risk of marijuana that doesn't really exist for tobacco, as mentioned above tangentially, is psychological. I was and still am, honestly, a heavy user. I've seen the same developments in the other chronic users in their lives, anecdotally of course: heavy users are absolutely fuzzier and more passive about life, on balance.

I think there's a false equivalence that happens where people who have had a problem (me) can easily rationalize it because it's viewed so favorably now, and as far as pain-to-pleasure ratios of psychoactives go, it's pretty kind to the body. But the druggie mantra "no free lunch" absolutely applies to THC too, and chronic use carries real risks.

One particular effect I would like to learn more about is sudden panic. Most former chronic users I know quit because suddenly, it changed. Rather than putting them in that relaxed, trippy headspace of laughter, it induced a very immediate panic attack response. Happened to me for no apparent reason after some new life stresses, though I wasn't stressed consciously when it happened. Instant feelings of squeezing, radiating pain from my chest, head went ice cold, instant feelings of dread before I could even process the pain. Scared the hell out of me.

I'll add, too, that I know the risk of inducing psychosis is real. In bad times I can't partake anymore as I immediately experience what I describe as "loud thoughts" about everything wrong in my life, with somewhat peculiar lateral associations scattered throughout. I do have a history of depression and other mental health stuff (though not schizophrenia). It's never made me lose touch with reality fully, though weed DID do that in the early days in a way that no description would have ever prepared me for.
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Essentially supporting the point I was trying to make. We have plunged into a sunny warm ocean not realizing there may be monsters lurking in the depths.
 
Gord_in_Toronto said:
Essentially supporting the point I was trying to make. We have plunged into a sunny warm ocean not realizing there may be monsters lurking in the depths.
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For sure! I'm very interested in seeing what research comes out in the short term. I'll have to see if there's anything that's come out recently that I haven't reviewed yet.

Sent from my LM-G710VM using Tapatalk
 
Colorado was the first state to legalize pot. Now they are seeing a spike in some kind of heart disease among 30-40 year old pot heads. Glunn, it sounds like your anxiety attack triggered a heart attack. Have you seen an MD about it?

"What is Colorado marijuana sickness?
The condition — officially called "cannabinoid hyperemesis syndrome" but now known to health care workers as "scromiting," a mashup of "screaming" and "vomiting" — has popped up with increasing frequency at hospitals in Colorado, doctors say.Jul 11, 2021"

also https://med.stanford.edu/news/all-news/2022/04/marijuana-heart-disease.html
 
Glunn11 said:
I suspect the primary risk of marijuana that doesn't really exist for tobacco, as mentioned above tangentially, is psychological. I was and still am, honestly, a heavy user. I've seen the same developments in the other chronic users in their lives, anecdotally of course: heavy users are absolutely fuzzier and more passive about life, on balance.

I think there's a false equivalence that happens where people who have had a problem (me) can easily rationalize it because it's viewed so favorably now, and as far as pain-to-pleasure ratios of psychoactives go, it's pretty kind to the body. But the druggie mantra "no free lunch" absolutely applies to THC too, and chronic use carries real risks.

One particular effect I would like to learn more about is sudden panic. Most former chronic users I know quit because suddenly, it changed. Rather than putting them in that relaxed, trippy headspace of laughter, it induced a very immediate panic attack response. Happened to me for no apparent reason after some new life stresses, though I wasn't stressed consciously when it happened. Instant feelings of squeezing, radiating pain from my chest, head went ice cold, instant feelings of dread before I could even process the pain. Scared the hell out of me.

I'll add, too, that I know the risk of inducing psychosis is real. In bad times I can't partake anymore as I immediately experience what I describe as "loud thoughts" about everything wrong in my life, with somewhat peculiar lateral associations scattered throughout. I do have a history of depression and other mental health stuff (though not schizophrenia). It's never made me lose touch with reality fully, though weed DID do that in the early days in a way that no description would have ever prepared me for.
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Did some online poking around after having a first ever panic attack after partaking. These seemed to start happening among even experienced users when the THC race started to become a thing. Producers started breeding strains with higher and higher THC content and lowering the CBD content which apparently off-sets the paranoia/panic effects of high THC for some people.
Informal polling and discussion with friends around "loud thoughts" as well, that we started referring to as "bummer spirals" lol. Seemed to start happening with the increase in the high THC strains.
There has been a rise in popularity of new 50/50 strains for such a reason, where THC and CBD are balanced.
At work currently so not providing any links, but a good google of "THC panic attacks CBD" will provide plenty of info to sift.
 
casebro said:
Colorado was the first state to legalize pot. Now they are seeing a spike in some kind of heart disease among 30-40 year old pot heads. Glunn, it sounds like your anxiety attack triggered a heart attack. Have you seen an MD about it?

"What is Colorado marijuana sickness?
The condition — officially called "cannabinoid hyperemesis syndrome" but now known to health care workers as "scromiting," a mashup of "screaming" and "vomiting" — has popped up with increasing frequency at hospitals in Colorado, doctors say.Jul 11, 2021"

also https://med.stanford.edu/news/all-news/2022/04/marijuana-heart-disease.html
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Oh, you bet your butt I went to the ER. Had a proper silent freakout in front of my dad (who probably knew I was high, let's be honest, but was still visibly concerned). I noticed the symptoms abated on the way there, and by the time I got through the doors I was convinced it was all in my head. They saw nothing and gave me a $50 Ativan. Which rocked, by the way.

And that wasn't the first and only time it happened, but I know it was seeded by the now involuntary "oh gosh I'm going to have an attack again" and then, of course, did.

I'm honestly not sure though having reviewed your link, now, that it wasn't cardiac actually. My friends who saw me once or twice in that panicked state would reassure me, but the pulling, throbbing, squeezing chest pain was so sharp it took my breath away. It's scary to think that I was actually having an episode after all, and it just isn't very well known yet.

It's great to see that you understand where I'm coming from, @Tony99, though I hope it doesn't end up killing us after all, lol. The CBD hypothesis checks out, as I've found that I never had the issue when I have access and can choose high CBD content or 50/50.

Then again my tolerance is way high now, again, so I never even feel myself brush against the cusp of that neurotic freefall that precedes the panic. But that tells me I'm due to cut it out.

Sent from my Pixel 6 Pro using Tapatalk
 
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