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Bigfoot Follies: part trois

AmyStrange said:
Well, doesn't almost everyone embellish their stories about almost everything?

ETA: I'd be interested in knowing (roughly) how many people you talked to, because some of the folks I've interviewed didn't really want to talk about it, and it seemed to me that the whole thing had frightened them.

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Hi

I will agree most people put some to loads glitter on top of their stories and even more if it's second hand ~

I talked to 3 forums full of Footers all about the hairy guy for about 3 years, I was around for most of the good gags and even got to talk with Peter Byrne for around an hour about his work, he was also open minded but he knew the outcome.

There just isn't a Bigfoot creature. I am willing to bet everyone here wishes it was real, that's why they are interested in it ! . . . But it's not happening IMHO.



RRS
 
arthwollipot said:
People have been looking for Bigfoot specifically for decades, in places where they might be expected to be. Not a single one has been found.

Either Bigfoot is exceedingly clever to be able to avoid and deceive literally every effort to discover it, or Bigfoot doesn't exist. I'm open to the idea of a third possibility, but if that possibility is just that we have been unlucky so far, I don't put much stock in that.
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The terrible photos and videos don't help either.

My problem is that I'm also skeptical of my own skepticism, but that's also why I try to keep an open mind about everything.
 
RedRatSnake said:
Hi

I will agree most people put some to loads glitter on top of their stories and even more if it's second hand ~

I talked to 3 forums full of Footers all about the hairy guy for about 3 years, I was around for most of the good gags and even got to talk with Peter Byrne for around an hour about his work, he was also open minded but he knew the outcome.

There just isn't a Bigfoot creature. I am willing to bet everyone here wishes it was real, that's why they are interested in it ! . . . But it's not happening IMHO.



RRS
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Thank you for your answer, and I think you might be right about the hilited part too.

Myself, I loved the research and even had an e-mail fight with Eric Bedford (I think that's his name--that was almost 30 years ago) over my website because I had nothing on there about Sasquatch being from outer space, and also corresponded with Loren Coleman, if you know who those folks are.

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AmyStrange said:
The terrible photos and videos don't help either.

My problem is that I'm also skeptical of my own skepticism, but that's also why I try to keep an open mind about everything.
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The thing is, the process of skepticism is by definition the process of examining doubt. So if you're doubting the process of examining doubt, well, you're kind of doing it wrong.

"Skeptical of skepticism" doesn't make much sense, IMO. If you're skeptical of skepticism, that just means you're being credulous.
 
I still check out the BF, Lochness Monster, Dinosaur, Etc sightings all the time it's something interesting and makes a cool Hobby, I don't buy into anything any more it's just been too long now without any REAL evidence.

I am mostly Interested in the Thylacine stuff that's going on now ~

RRS
 
arthwollipot said:
The thing is, the process of skepticism is by definition the process of examining doubt. So if you're doubting the process of examining doubt, well, you're kind of doing it wrong.

"Skeptical of skepticism" doesn't make much sense, IMO. If you're skeptical of skepticism, that just means you're being credulous.
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OMG

That is just Awesome !

RRS
 
arthwollipot said:
The thing is, the process of skepticism is by definition the process of examining doubt. So if you're doubting the process of examining doubt, well, you're kind of doing it wrong.

"Skeptical of skepticism" doesn't make much sense, IMO. If you're skeptical of skepticism, that just means you're being credulous.
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If you say so, but Ivan T. Sanderson disagreed with that, and I kinda think he's right...

FROM: More "Things" by Ivan T. Sanderson, 1969


The very basis of science is a healthy skepticism--one, moreover, that should question the skeptic who denies the existence of anything just as readily as it should question the benighted traveler who dares affirm it.
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AmyStrange said:
If you say so, but Ivan T. Sanderson disagreed with that, and I kinda think he's right...
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The "skeptic who denies the existence of anything" isn't a skeptic. That's a misuse of the term. A common misuse, to be sure, but a misuse nonetheless.

A "climate change skeptic" isn't a skeptic. They are ignoring evidence, and denying expert consensus, which are things that skeptics don't do. "9/11 skeptics" also are not skeptics.

I don't say that bigfoot doesn't exist for no reason. I say it because I have never seen any good evidence that it does, even when people have been specifically and directly searching for such evidence for decades. After so long trying, if bigfoot existed, they would have found evidence and I don't think it can be simple bad luck that they've missed it. If it were there, people who have dedicated their lives to finding it would have done so by now. It is reasonable to conclude that the reason that they haven't found anything is because there's nothing to find.

Sure, it's technically possible that tomorrow someone will suddenly find the conclusive evidence that they've been searching for for decades (it was behind the couch the whole time), and as a skeptic I am required to acknowledge that possibility. But if that happens, the next question is why had we missed it this whole time?

Saying that something we have been unsuccessfully looking for for decades probably doesn't exist is not incompatible with skepticism. Truth is provisional, but that doesn't mean we can't draw reasonable conclusions.
 
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AmyStrange said:
If you say so, but Ivan T. Sanderson disagreed with that, and I kinda think he's right...



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That guy in a nut shell wrote books with all kinds of claims of crypto stuff to sell and make a profit with absolutely no evidence what so ever ~

Kinda like a Aleister Crowley character.

Put some effort into it will ya !


RRS
 
arthwollipot said:
People have been looking for Bigfoot specifically for decades, in places where they might be expected to be. Not a single one has been found.

Either Bigfoot is exceedingly clever to be able to avoid and deceive literally every effort to discover it, or Bigfoot doesn't exist. I'm open to the idea of a third possibility, but if that possibility is just that we have been unlucky so far, I don't put much stock in that.
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I watched a video of bf searchers on an island off the coast of Washington state. It was supposed to be crawling with BF for all the hunters reporting sightings.
Or so they said. There was no evidence of primitive boats so they must just stay on the island. Unless 8' tall apes stow away totally unnoticed on visiting boats.
What they found was typical woodland wildlife, a few noseeums making noises in the distance and little else.
But it was surely worth another expedition to research it more.
If they could get an interested party to finance it.

Follow the money. They stopped looking when money ran out. It wasn't worth donating thier time because they are absolutely convinced a colony lives on the island, they didn't put trail cameras on game trails to send them pictures of whatever passed that way.

But they will assemble a team if Discovery Channel or whomever pays enough.
 
RedRatSnake said:
That guy in a nut shell wrote books with all kinds of claims of crypto stuff to sell and make a profit with absolutely no evidence what so ever ~

Kinda like a Aleister Crowley character.

Put some effort into it will ya !


RRS
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Yeah, so? How does that disprove the quote I provided?

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arthwollipot said:
The "skeptic who denies the existence of anything" isn't a skeptic. That's a misuse of the term. A common misuse, to be sure, but a misuse nonetheless.

A "climate change skeptic" isn't a skeptic. They are ignoring evidence, and denying expert consensus, which are things that skeptics don't do. "9/11 skeptics" also are not skeptics.

I don't say that bigfoot doesn't exist for no reason. I say it because I have never seen any good evidence that it does, even when people have been specifically and directly searching for such evidence for decades. After so long trying, if bigfoot existed, they would have found evidence and I don't think it can be simple bad luck that they've missed it. If it were there, people who have dedicated their lives to finding it would have done so by now. It is reasonable to conclude that the reason that they haven't found anything is because there's nothing to find.

Sure, it's technically possible that tomorrow someone will suddenly find the conclusive evidence that they've been searching for for decades (it was behind the couch the whole time), and as a skeptic I am required to acknowledge that possibility. But if that happens, the next question is why had we missed it this whole time?

Saying that something we have been unsuccessfully looking for for decades probably doesn't exist is not incompatible with skepticism. Truth is provisional, but that doesn't mean we can't draw reasonable conclusions.
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I'm not saying you're wrong, but let me put it this way...

I really am skeptical of anything paranormal, but at the same time, I've also had experiences that make me question that same skepticism.

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AmyStrange said:
I'm not sure Bigfoot does exist, but I'm willing to keep an open mind.

One of the refutes to the phenomenon is if they do exist, where would a population large enough to sustain itself live.

The one place that comes to mind is the Olympic National Forest, Park and Mountain Range area. The forest itself has 628,115 acres and not many people have explored every inch of it.

As an aside, one of the stupidest retorts I've ever heard was why haven't they ever found a dead body, and the answer to that (as any avid hunter knows) is finding a dead body of any animal in the forest is extremely rare[b]*[/b], and the reason for that is obvious if you really think about it.

*ETA: Unless of course, it's an animal that they themselves killed.
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But not impossible or improbable. With all our looking surely we would have found one by now?

Add what about scat? There's lots of that all over the forests from other living creatures.
 
Gord_in_Toronto said:
But not impossible or improbable. With all our looking surely we would have found one by now?

Add what about scat? There's lots of that all over the forests from other living creatures.
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You would think so, wouldn't you?

TBH, that's one of the reasons I'm skeptical that Bigfoot does exist.

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AmyStrange said:
I'm not sure Bigfoot does exist, but I'm willing to keep an open mind.

One of the refutes to the phenomenon is if they do exist, where would a population large enough to sustain itself live.

The one place that comes to mind is the Olympic National Forest, Park and Mountain Range area. The forest itself has 628,115 acres and not many people have explored every inch of it.
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Are you aware of any reports of Bigfoot sightings in this area?

AmyStrange said:
As an aside, one of the stupidest retorts I've ever heard was why haven't they ever found a dead body, and the answer to that (as any avid hunter knows) is finding a dead body of any animal in the forest is extremely rare*, and the reason for that is obvious if you really think about it.

*ETA: Unless of course, it's an animal that they themselves killed.
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How about bones? Dens? Fur? Scat? Evidence of feeding?
 
I've been to Olympic National Forest plenty of times, as have many other people every year. Also, I've found dead animals in the forest. Even if they've already been eaten up, you can still find mostly intact skeletons sometimes
 
AmyStrange said:
There are more, but here are a couple:

https://www.ptleader.com/stories/bigfoot-study-includes-olympic-peninsula-evidence,45855https://www.dallasobserver.com/news...l-to-publish-her-dna-proof-of-bigfoot-7144359

https://www.cryptidcampfire.com/blog/nest-site-olympic-project

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The first link (dated October 9, 2013) says they have identified Sasquatch DNA.

If so, this would be definitive, incontrovertible proof of BF's existence. DNA is real science. Why has this not been published in a scientific journal? Why has it not been reported in the mainstream press?

Maybe this is why: A Texas Geneticist Apparently Invented a Science Journal to Publish Her DNA Proof of Bigfoot

I await further results with anticipation. :cool:

But. Oh. Oh.

That doesn't conclusively prove that Ketchum's study is a worthless pile of crap. It just suggests it very, very strongly.
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Gord_in_Toronto said:
The first link (dated October 9, 2013) says they have identified Sasquatch DNA.

If so, this would be definitive, incontrovertible proof of BF's existence. DNA is real science. Why has this not been published in a scientific journal? Why has it not been reported in the mainstream press?

Maybe this is why: A Texas Geneticist Apparently Invented a Science Journal to Publish Her DNA Proof of Bigfoot

I await further results with anticipation. :cool:

But. Oh. Oh.
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Crap like that is one of the reasons Bigfoot research is not taken seriously by the scientific community.

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AmyStrange said:
Yeah, so? How does that disprove the quote I provided?

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It doesn't and I wasn't trying to, it's good to question everything that's why this place is here full of people that follow that principle, It must go both ways ~


It comes down to evidence and after all these years there is none.

I'm not trying to beat ya up at all, I take this subject with a good dose of humor, perhaps if in the last 50 years if something concrete came along it would be different.


Looks like you stirred up a little hornets nest here, stay planted in what you believe for now :thumbsup:

RRS
 
RedRatSnake said:
It doesn't and I wasn't trying to, it's good to question everything that's why this place is here full of people that follow that principle, It must go both ways ~


It comes down to evidence and after all these years there is none.

I'm not trying to beat ya up at all, I take this subject with a good dose of humor, perhaps if in the last 50 years if something concrete came along it would be different.


Looks like you stirred up a little hornets nest here, stay planted in what you believe for now :thumbsup:

RRS
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Thank you.

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I've never gone out in the woods to specifically hunt Bigfoot, but since I do live in the PNW, whenever I'm out there, I do keep my eyes and ears open, but so far, I haven't found any definitive evidence to prove they exist.

The research I did involved looking for original documents and interviewing witnesses when I can.

Even though I haven't found Bigfoot, I have found hard evidence that some of the reports in cryptid books might not be entirely accurate, and that's disconcerting to me, because it looks like some researchers just copy and paste their info from other researchers without actually looking at the original documents.

The Jacko event up in British Columbia near the village of Yale is one example that I've found.

In every book that I've looked at states that the date it happened was June 30, 1884. It doesn't specifically state that date, but here's a link to the Wikipedia webpage about it:


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacko_hoax


When I looked for the original document, I found that the Daily Colonist (now called the British Colonist) had scanned it, and it was available to download as a pdf file.

The link I originally had doesn't seem to work anymore, but I did put an archived copy up on my website:


https://www.atomadness.com/UNX--Jacko--1884-07-04.pdf


Here's some of the text, but specifically, notice the date:

WHAT IS IT?

A STRANGE CREATURE CAPTURED ABOVE YALE.

A British Columbia Gorilla.

(Correspondence of The Colonist)

Yale, B.C., July 3rd, 1882.

In the immediate vicinity of No. 4 tunnel, situated some twenty miles above this village, are bluffs of rock which have hitherto been unsurmountable, but on Monday morning last were successfully scaled by Mr. Onderdonk's employes [sic] on the regular train from Lytton. Assisted by Mr. Costerton, the British Columbia Express Company's messenger, and a number of gentlemen from Lytton and points east of that place who, after considerable trouble and perilous climbing, succeeded in capturing a creature which may truly be called half man and half beast...
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It's chasing ghosts by now. Between blatant fraudsters and mountains of evidence that are mostly "something I can't understand or fully explain" there is nothing solid.
It's a fully poisoned pot of soup.

I am always up for a new discovery. I also want stuff like fully electric OTR trucking to take off as a viable option.
But it still isn't worth chasing rainbows and other wishful thinking to no results.

Some past 'future' pipe dreams are now an established reality. Some are still becoming viable.
Finding a living bigfoot isn't on those lists. Maybe someday, but right now, the fraudsters raised the bar of evidence too high for themselves.
 
8enotto said:
It's chasing ghosts by now. Between blatant fraudsters and mountains of evidence that are mostly "something I can't understand or fully explain" there is nothing solid.
It's a fully poisoned pot of soup.

I am always up for a new discovery. I also want stuff like fully electric OTR trucking to take off as a viable option.
But it still isn't worth chasing rainbows and other wishful thinking to no results.

Some past 'future' pipe dreams are now an established reality. Some are still becoming viable.
Finding a living bigfoot isn't on those lists. Maybe someday, but right now, the fraudsters raised the bar of evidence too high for themselves.
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Well said and thank you.

I've been busy with my six novels, so I haven't done much research lately, but I still find it an interesting topic.

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Trebuchet said:
Well, it's not as if anyone ever walks around with a high resolution still and video camera in their pocket, is it?
Oh, wait....
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I know! If they really existed, you'd think with practically everyone having camera phones that some good pictures would've come out by now.

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AmyStrange was probably thinking of Jon-Erik Beckjord, who believed that Bigfoot was a paranormal inter-dimensional creature capable of dematerializing and mind-reading as well as time travel. He also explained that the Loch Ness monster was a quasi-material alien projection shaped like a cross between Halley's Comet and the Concorde.

As a kid, I avidly read Ivan T. Sanderson's books. As an adult I learned that Sanderson had fallen for the giant penguin hoax and that he had staked his reputation that the Minnesota Ice man was an actual Neanderthal body. It was a latex, fur, and animal bone fake.

Both of these gentlemen have diminished credibility.
 
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Spektator said:
AmyStrange was probably thinking of Jon-Erik Beckjord, who believed that Bigfoot was a paranormal inter-dimensional creature capable of dematerializing and mind-reading as well as time travel. He also explained that the Loch Ness monster was a quasi-material alien projection shaped like a cross between Halley's Comet and the Concorde.

As a hid, I avidly read Ivan T. Sanderson's books. As an adult I learned that Sanderson had fallen for the giant penguin hoax and that he had staked his reputation that the Minnesota Ice man was an actual Neanderthal body. It was a latex, fur, and animal bone fake.

Both of these gentlemen have diminished credibility.
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That's exactly who I was thinking of and thank you.

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You're welcome! Over time I learned that many writers and researchers whose work fascinated teenage me (Frank Edwards, Hans Holzer, Carlos Castaneda many others) turned out to be overly credulous, untrustworthy on details, or outright hoaxers. Very disappointing.
 
Spektator said:
You're welcome! Over time I learned that many writers and researchers whose work fascinated teenage me (Frank Edwards, Hans Holzer, Carlos Castaneda many others) turned out to be overly credulous, untrustworthy on details, or outright hoaxers. Very disappointing.
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Yeah, I found that out when I researched the Jacko hoax, and it is disappointing, but despite all that, I still love doing the research.

One of the most fascinating things that I've researched are the Native American legends that are related to Bigfoot, and a large part of my webpage devoted to Sasquatch and its history examines them a little closer.

I'm having a problem with the security certificate for my original domain name (amystrange.org) so I've moved it to my other domain (atomadness.com) and some of the links won't work, but if anyone wishes to read it, here's the link:

https://www.atomadness.com/UNX-sasquatch.html#nativeamericanlegends

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In the beginning, when I interview someone about an alleged Bigfoot sighting, I always assume that they're telling the truth, because I believe it serves no purpose to challenge them right out of the gate.

The main story isn't my focus after they're finished, because most liars got that part down pat. What I do focus on are the tiny inconsistent details, because that's where most of them get tripped up.

Most of them did tend to embellish their stories as they went along (just like RedRatSnake posted earlier), and most of it was just pure BS, except for three of them.

They didn't want any publicity or money or anything, and the only reason I got to interview them was because they were my friends, and I promised not to write about or tell anyone else the details, but the thing that really caught my attention was how shook up they were about the whole thing, and that's really all I can say about it.

I know that sounds like I'm lying, and I don't blame you for thinking that because I'd feel the same way if I were in your shoes.

The only thing I can add is that the sighting occurred near Mt. Baker in Washington State.

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AmyStrange said:
I'm not saying you're wrong, but let me put it this way...

I really am skeptical of anything paranormal, but at the same time, I've also had experiences that make me question that same skepticism.
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Okay, so examine those experiences. Evaluate the evidence. If the only thing you can say is "I don't know what that was", it doesn't mean that it wasn't a perfectly natural phenomenon. It just means that you don't know what it was.

If there is anything that scientific skepticism teaches us, it is that everything has a perfectly rational explanation, even if we currently don't know what that explanation is. As the great philosopher Tim Minchin said "every mystery ever solved has turned out to be not magic". Why should this particular mystery be any different?
 
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